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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:33   #501
Clouds
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I have to ask, what 5?

Out of top 5.
For BF:
1 is you
2 is allied
1 was hitting another ally
1 is p3n

For P3n:
Ult/BF/ND were hitting P3n.
1 was elsewhere
1 is P3n

Stats are very useful, but if you are being hit by 4 half tag smaller allies, and you are hitting back with 3/5 of top 5, they would suggest you had it a fair bit easier.
I'm not going to compare dicks on who got hit the hardest, but I counted around 200 - 290 incoming fleets on about 4 consecutive nights. Each night was a different statistic, so I can't really give an accurate number.

I have been in far worse situations than p3n. You just need to deal with it and learn from your mistakes.

I may have criticised p3n on many things, but they did have the balls to go after Ultores in the first place. It just wasn't under the right circumstances. Their strat for example didn't help.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:42   #502
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
Tweaking numbers won't improve the game, just tilt it. It won't do more than prolong the inevitable death.

I believe the best shot this game has at surviving, is to stop moaning over every little thing thinking it will improve anything. Look within, find strength and do better yourself.
This seems to me to be contradictory. Tweaking wont do anything, and then saying people should stop moaning over changes?

"look within" wtf does that mean? The problem is not with individual players but with lack of a decent number of players.

I really don't see the problem with tweaking and regularly making changes. The oldies are almost certain to play. And you never know PA might stumble upon a combination that actually works. That sure is not going to happen with stagnation and an unwillingness to try new things (like the lower tag limit).
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:46   #503
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
I'm afraid i completely missed this if that indeed was said
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:47   #504
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
It's not even about skill though anymore. It's just about numbers, or more safety in them.
lol this game was never about skill

you are playing an excell based game pal
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:50   #505
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Once again, look above. I've been moaning about this for four rounds.

I don't actually believe there's another elite alliance other from Ultores. P3ng have never been elite, just competitive, same as CT.

And the above alliances mentioned have not always had numbers on their side - however, even when disadvantaged before you could do something about it. Now it's just impossible because there is zero flexibility in political movement owing to a combination of the tag limit, alliance hc's and galaxy spread.
Let me explain how tag limits work. It restricts the number of members an alliance can have in tag. It does not stop alliances from making their own support tags(ascendancy and descendancy anyone?) and it does not stop alliances from playing with a various number of members out of tag, only to circulate them in at the expence of crashers, inactives or scanners at the end of the round a score boost. At the same time these members adds to the alliance's numbers, even if not able to def tag. This has been debated over and over again, and in the end you either end up like what i just mentioned(on a short term basis, allies will decrease in size after a couple rounds if you limit the tag size more), or you end up chipping away at the large communities that hold this game together. I honestly do see a few alliances disband and quite a few people leave this game if you cut tags to 35. For example 20 people from newdawn(the most inactive?) will be shuffled out into the cold. So you up the top level of the existing full tags a bit, and you create a HUGE lower class of players having to start their own alliances, without the best officers(who will be left with the tier 1 and 2 alliances) effectively making them quit. While this is happening, Ult and their likes will still dominate.

As for alliance HC's, there is absolutely no way of revolutionizing this. The best and most active HC's will HC as long as they play PA. Regardless of tagsizes and whatnot.

Galaxy spread, here you're on to something. At least cutting galaxy sizes will give the small and lower tier alliances better land percentage, but you'll also cut down on their own defpool(and remember, the'y're often more reliant on def from gal than those in top tier allies).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
And once again (repetitive I know), you're looking at it from a purely elite perspective. I'm not even a top tier player in p3ng. Every round I ask Plaguuu or m0 for their start up guide. I've just played in many different rounds at many different times and I can tell you right now, this is the sh*ttest the game has ever been...and people being unwilling to change anything is not helping in the slightest. It's like you don't even want to try these things to encourage new alliances, new people in.
It is your own fault that you, after playing this game for years, havent read stats and tech tree and calculated roughly how to set up your own planet, be glad you have a 60 man tag limit so you have access to people like m0 or plaguuu to do that for you, cause if taglimit was cut to 35 you'd be likely to find yourself in a lower tier alliance with noone to tell you this stuff.

I'm not unwilling to change or try new things, but i am very reluctant to try things just to try it, knowing that it will most likely spiral the decrease in players. I don't see how new people will play pa because of 35 man tag limits... Please tell me how. As for new alliances? I'm sure we'd see 2-4 new tags that will all idle into oblivion and disappear within 3 rounds, and we'd then be left with an even lower playerbase.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:51   #506
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

So I had this crazy idea for some time now but I was too lazy to write it down.

Lets have a summer/winter/havoc round where all the universe is split in 2 alliances RED and GREEN(i wanted to say black and white but some people would twist that into a bad thing).

Anyway. You dont get to choose in which ally you are when you sign up. You can choose your race/gov/etc but not ally and you get put randomly in one of them.

In theory both allies should be approximate equally strong with both very active and less active people. There would be less politics/backstabbing/trolling as everyone will fight for the win on either side.

To spike things up I would lower the cluster eta -1 so that we could have small skirmishes between gals.

This has a big flaw tho: once an ally is starting to trail behind in roids/value there is no outside help or coming back.

TL;DR Everyone sign up the normal way but without an ally, at shuffle everyone will be randomly put in one of 2 allies with cluster -1 eta and let the war begin!
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:53   #507
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
I have been in far worse situations than p3n. You just need to deal with it and learn from your mistakes.
Strikes me that one of the constants of PA is that everyone always seems to think that their ally had it far worse than anyone else!
I would be very surprised if BF were to turn out to have had the most incomings this round! It is surely quite likely to be ult, since they have sat back and defended all the last week.

The central fact of the latter half of this round is that it has been essentially two versus three viz. CT and P3n vs Ult, BF and ND.
Whether Faceless, Vikings, RainbowS, Traitors or ODDR have been involved on one side or other on some nights does not alter that essential starting mismatch.
BF is in the privileged position of not only being in the slightly larger block but also of not being the biggest ally (hence bigger target) in said block. Yes you got a few hard days... every ally has had a hard three or four days at some point.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:58   #508
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Check your IRC PM history. ;-) /query Clouds.
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maybe you spoke to doza, not me :/
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 20:58   #509
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Strikes me that one of the constants of PA is that everyone always seems to think that their ally had it far worse than anyone else!
I would be very surprised if BF were to turn out to have had the most incomings this round! It is surely quite likely to be ult, since they have sat back and defended all the last week.
I wasn't referring to this round. For example, when I was in Vikings, we got blocked by 5 alliances as a 40 man tag.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:00   #510
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
This seems to me to be contradictory. Tweaking wont do anything, and then saying people should stop moaning over changes?
Maybe i was unclear here, but it's not contradictory. Tweaking tag limits wont save the game from dying. Moaning to tweak small stuff won't save the game from dying.
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Originally Posted by booji View Post
"look within" wtf does that mean? The problem is not with individual players but with lack of a decent number of players.
Ye, grab your smile and greet new people with optimism instead of shoving the good old "this is a shitty game thats about to die" in their face. Maybe, just maybe a newbie bothers to stick around.
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I really don't see the problem with tweaking and regularly making changes. The oldies are almost certain to play. And you never know PA might stumble upon a combination that actually works. That sure is not going to happen with stagnation and an unwillingness to try new things (like the lower tag limit).
Again, WHY change the taglimit? HOW is it going to bring new people in? When someone throws a half decent awnser with some sort of realistic analysis of it onto the table, I'll take a step back and reconsider. If you don't like your house, you dont knock down 2 walls without thinking advantages and consequences first, do you?
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:02   #511
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeJay View Post
So I had this crazy idea for some time now but I was too lazy to write it down.

Lets have a summer/winter/havoc round where all the universe is split in 2 alliances RED and GREEN(i wanted to say black and white but some people would twist that into a bad thing).

Anyway. You dont get to choose in which ally you are when you sign up. You can choose your race/gov/etc but not ally and you get put randomly in one of them.

In theory both allies should be approximate equally strong with both very active and less active people. There would be less politics/backstabbing/trolling as everyone will fight for the win on either side.

To spike things up I would lower the cluster eta -1 so that we could have small skirmishes between gals.

This has a big flaw tho: once an ally is starting to trail behind in roids/value there is no outside help or coming back.

TL;DR Everyone sign up the normal way but without an ally, at shuffle everyone will be randomly put in one of 2 allies with cluster -1 eta and let the war begin!
would be fun as a 'mini-round' for sure
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:03   #512
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
I wasn't referring to this round. For example, when I was in Vikings, we got blocked by 5 alliances as a 40 man tag.
Really? the previous line was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
I'm not going to compare dicks on who got hit the hardest, but I counted around 200 - 290 incoming fleets on about 4 consecutive nights. Each night was a different statistic, so I can't really give an accurate number.
And that was in response to Forest saying you had it easy this round
So you can see where I drew the conclusion you were speaking about this round.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:07   #513
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
When someone throws a half decent awnser with some sort of realistic analysis of it onto the table, I'll take a step back and reconsider.
Yeah Mz proved with statistics that there is no correlation between shifts in tag size and the size of the playerbase yet you persist in saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
... knowing that it will most likely spiral the decrease in players. I don't see how new people will play pa because of 35 man tag limits... Please tell me how. As for new alliances? I'm sure we'd see 2-4 new tags that will all idle into oblivion and disappear within 3 rounds, and we'd then be left with an even lower playerbase.
The playerbase declines because people get tired of being phoned three times a night!
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:11   #514
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
Let me explain how tag limits work. It restricts the number of members an alliance can have in tag. It does not stop alliances from making their own support tags(ascendancy and descendancy anyone?) and it does not stop alliances from playing with a various number of members out of tag, only to circulate them in at the expence of crashers, inactives or scanners at the end of the round a score boost. At the same time these members adds to the alliance's numbers, even if not able to def tag. This has been debated over and over again, and in the end you either end up like what i just mentioned(on a short term basis, allies will decrease in size after a couple rounds if you limit the tag size more), or you end up chipping away at the large communities that hold this game together. I honestly do see a few alliances disband and quite a few people leave this game if you cut tags to 35. For example 20 people from newdawn(the most inactive?) will be shuffled out into the cold. So you up the top level of the existing full tags a bit, and you create a HUGE lower class of players having to start their own alliances, without the best officers(who will be left with the tier 1 and 2 alliances) effectively making them quit. While this is happening, Ult and their likes will still dominate.

As for alliance HC's, there is absolutely no way of revolutionizing this. The best and most active HC's will HC as long as they play PA. Regardless of tagsizes and whatnot.

Galaxy spread, here you're on to something. At least cutting galaxy sizes will give the small and lower tier alliances better land percentage, but you'll also cut down on their own defpool(and remember, the'y're often more reliant on def from gal than those in top tier allies).


It is your own fault that you, after playing this game for years, havent read stats and tech tree and calculated roughly how to set up your own planet, be glad you have a 60 man tag limit so you have access to people like m0 or plaguuu to do that for you, cause if taglimit was cut to 35 you'd be likely to find yourself in a lower tier alliance with noone to tell you this stuff.

I'm not unwilling to change or try new things, but i am very reluctant to try things just to try it, knowing that it will most likely spiral the decrease in players. I don't see how new people will play pa because of 35 man tag limits... Please tell me how. As for new alliances? I'm sure we'd see 2-4 new tags that will all idle into oblivion and disappear within 3 rounds, and we'd then be left with an even lower playerbase.
Let me explain, it's not because I CANNOT setup my own planet...it's that I'm not bothered to do so. I'd happily be in a lower tier alliance should the alliance limits be reduced to 35 - out of choice...thanks for the advice.

Yes, you may well have these sub tags, but not every sub tag will go in the same direction - and it gives everyone else an opportunity to fight back against these nubs. Sure, Ult and the likes will still dominate as you put it, over the course of a round, but at least it wouldnt be these rounds that are over in 200 ticks where there's no point in us playing and they will have bigger fish to fry at some point rather than these other inexperienced tags. The only ally that plays with members out of tag is Ult ftr. Sure we had some start of round, but that's normal. A lot of these people will happily move into other alliances with full tags if they could, but they cant because there's only a handful of alliances that can offer this.

And you keep talking like officers are so important to these alliances I'm speaking of that would be encouraged to play - they aren't...and you dont get that, because you cant comprehend not playing the game in a time consuming competitive way to the best of your ability. It's far easier and far less time consuming for someone to setup a raid or handle questions for 30 people than it is for 60. And just because allies have HC's, doesn't mean they dont have other members capable of leading or showing initiative - which is pretty disrespectful btw.

It's far easier for smaller tags to get a foothold and interest in the game when everyone is on the same playing field. At the moment, round after round it's not like that. You've already said, the majority of people that play the game now have played for multiple rounds - so where are they going to go if we try these things? They're just going to stop now after all this time because of one failure? Put it like this, if we continue down the path you and Clouds suggest, the non experimental route, I and others that have played for many rounds will stop far sooner and we are the majority of the playerbase.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:15   #515
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
Let me explain how tag limits work. It restricts the number of members an alliance can have in tag. It does not stop alliances from making their own support tags(ascendancy and descendancy anyone?) and it does not stop alliances from playing with a various number of members out of tag, only to circulate them in at the expence of crashers, inactives or scanners at the end of the round a score boost.
This seems to me to be a relatively short term problem. If these two alliances are both near to full tag the chances are they wont cooperate forever. A natural turnover of members will ensure they slowly diverge. And your use of Asc as an example is shooting yourself in the foot. There were to all intents and purposes multiple small alliances within asc which could have functioned on their own without too much difficulty if it were necessary to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
At the same time these members adds to the alliance's numbers, even if not able to def tag.
Smaller tags should really reduce the number of out of tag players as there will be many more options. The chances of players finding they don't fit in any but one alliance seems small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
This has been debated over and over again, and in the end you either end up like what i just mentioned(on a short term basis, allies will decrease in size after a couple rounds if you limit the tag size more), or you end up chipping away at the large communities that hold this game together.
Again I wonder how many people are best buds with all 59 others in their alliance. I like the ppl in p3n but I could certainly see myself playing with only half without too much problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
I honestly do see a few alliances disband and quite a few people leave this game if you cut tags to 35. For example 20 people from newdawn(the most inactive?) will be shuffled out into the cold.
You keep bringing up ND's community but having seem a long term ND member in my gal leave it this round without quitting the game entirely I wonder whether this is really true.
Clearly the best way for the game would be for tags to be split much more evenly than just kicking out the bottom half of the memberbase (which clearly fluctuates anyway). The best would be for a few of the HC to take half the memberbase that way there is a structure from the word go. You yourself have said this is likely to happen when you mention that you will get two closely aligned tags. So will it or wont it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
So you up the top level of the existing full tags a bit, and you create a HUGE lower class of players having to start their own alliances, without the best officers(who will be left with the tier 1 and 2 alliances) effectively making them quit. While this is happening, Ult and their likes will still dominate.
Yes this could happen. But it seems to me unlikely. First is that you have mentioned the community aspect; the weakest players are not all best buddies with one and other. The result therefore is that a lot of the better players will go too so I think the tags will be more even than you make out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
As for alliance HC's, there is absolutely no way of revolutionizing this. The best and most active HC's will HC as long as they play PA. Regardless of tagsizes and whatnot.
Well im afraid to say that here again tagsizes is part of the solution. You yourself have bemoaned the sudden need to have more HCs (where will they come from!?!) but exactly this means the influence of this clique of current HCs will be considerably diluted. I am sure there are plenty of active players who have never had a chance to HC before who would take on the challenge. Before you state well they could go ahead and make a new alliance not everyone wants to be the one making alliance but would be happy to HC if asked.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:17   #516
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Really? the previous line was:



And that was in response to Forest saying you had it easy this round
So you can see where I drew the conclusion you were speaking about this round.
Oh.. I thought you was talking about another of my quotes. Nevermind!
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:21   #517
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Yeah Mz proved with statistics that there is no correlation between shifts in tag size and the size of the playerbase yet you persist in saying:

The playerbase declines because people get tired of being phoned three times a night!
Statistics can be made to support any opinion: If statistics shows no correlation between shift in tag size and the size of the playerbase, then why on earth would one want to cut the tag limit with the justification that it might bring in more players?

Someone once defined insanity as doing the same experiment over and over and expecting a different result.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:23   #518
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Did anyone take a look at the graph's and notice the massive ratio difference between players in alliances and non alliance players over the rounds?

(are the multihunters actually good at what they do or is it just not worth the effort to multi anymore)

Also there are a few spikes in numbers I'm not sure if they coincide with summer free rounds but with them happening so close together it seems not to be the case. I'm not sure what happened them rounds but it would be nice to know why it happened. I'm not convinced it's random due to the happening of it more than once, could it be free rounds? could it be an alliance joining bringing a lot of players that don't usually play? could it be multi planets, is that a bad thing?

You should all use this angst/hate and emotion positively to work this out pals! instead of wasting all this energy talking bollocks about why you are so hard done by.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:29   #519
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

It's become clear to me that smaller tags will bring more new players to pa. Ty booji and Krypton, hope you get your way. I'll be the "i told you so" guy in the back seat after the car has crashed.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:30   #520
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Thanks for jumping on board!
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:35   #521
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

You are misunderstanding me. I dont argue that it would bring more players to the game. Simply that your argument that it will cause people to leave is unsubstantiated. I also see no reason why it would lead to a big increase in players because it does not create a mechanism for bringing new players in. The only benefit in terms of numbers would potentially be that someone bringing a community over from another game would not need to know 60 people to be competitive which is a pretty high bar. We dont see this happen very often.

You are arguing for stability when what we have is a slow decline. The options are continue the slow decline or shake things up and see what happens. I am for the latter.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:36   #522
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

And for the record, my elite perspective: I know i'll have a good tag ragrdless if i want one, and i'll play with friends. The post i made was not on behalf of myself in that perspective.

booji, from what game would one want to come and play pa? This is the relic that started it all, the foundation of wich fueled a ton of games way more advanced and dynamic. In the end this is tick by tick browser based space war game with no gfx or sustainable way of keeping the community together. I really don't see people coming to an interface that might have been good 12 years ago with irc as the community's main souurce of communicating. I've trained newbies to use mirc for 15 years, wich was about the time it went out of date. New people don't even know what irc is, and is less equipped to set it up as apple and microsoft pushes us away from customizable use of computers. The kids simply view the whole of pa the same way a person with no computer background view linux.

Yes, i'm settled on the fact that this game is for the selected few of us that holds on to that stuff. But go ahead, change things up all you want. I'll still be the "i told you so"-guy.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:38   #523
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking
So you up the top level of the existing full tags a bit, and you create a HUGE lower class of players having to start their own alliances, without the best officers(who will be left with the tier 1 and 2 alliances) effectively making them quit.
the HC's DC's BC's in smaller tags are no worse than the ones in the top tags

also there seems to be an assumption in these parts that because a tag is full it's elite :P dafuq

there also seems to be a blame it on the players in the tag mentality compared to football where the blame gets placed on the management, in PA it's the fault of the players in a tag... infact no im wrong everyone of you complaining idiots throws blame at everything.... sound like females to me.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:40   #524
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by vuLgAr View Post
the HC's DC's BC's in smaller tags are no worse than the ones in the top tags
Well the DCs in the small tags could hardly be worse than p3n's!
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:41   #525
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
Statistics can be made to support any opinion: If statistics shows no correlation between shift in tag size and the size of the playerbase, then why on earth would one want to cut the tag limit with the justification that it might bring in more players?
Raising or lowering the tag limits has been never shown to have had any effect in the past, so why should it in the future? I am neither on the side of the people advocating bigger tag limits, nor on the side of people advocating lower tag limits. My stance is that rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic is a pointless exercise, and the amount of energy the community spends arguing over this trivial number is a complete waste.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:45   #526
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Well the DCs in the small tags could hardly be worse than p3n's!
what he said ^
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:45   #527
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by vuLgAr View Post
the HC's DC's BC's in smaller tags are no worse than the ones in the top tags

also there seems to be an assumption in these parts that because a tag is full it's elite :P dafuq

there also seems to be a blame it on the players in the tag mentality compared to football where the blame gets placed on the management, in PA it's the fault of the players in a tag... infact no im wrong everyone of you complaining idiots throws blame at everything.... sound like females to me.
Yes there is, I am obviously better.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:46   #528
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
It's become clear to me that smaller tags will bring more new players to pa. Ty booji and Krypton, hope you get your way. I'll be the "i told you so" guy in the back seat after the car has crashed.
Nobody is arguing that this will bring more players, simply that the current political gridlock puts off more people than the reduction in the size of tags would.
Both sides of this argument are about how best to halt decline not stimulate growth.
In principle for growth you raise the tag limits and force any ally that wants to be competitive to mail all their old associates in the hope that they join in order to give a full 100 man tag.
The problem is you are likely to only end up with one tag anywhere near full and hence the shittest round ever!
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:49   #529
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

You all seem to think that pa loses players because of politics and stagnation? If thats the case certain rounds would have created big drops in playerbase, but it appears more constant than that. I believe people simply grouw out of this game bacause the game itself is out of date. I like out of date to a certain degree, but i don't like less players.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:49   #530
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Think the last two are right up there
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:50   #531
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

That was in response to Londo's last line.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:51   #532
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
booji, from what game would one want to come and play pa?
Great way to avoid engaging with my post! I was saying that this was the only possible way for it to make a difference was this. I did not state an opinion on it actually happening.

For the people who want smaller tags it is not about the numbers in the game suddenly going up as a result of the change. I don't think I have seen anyone make that assertion and I think they would be barmy to do so. What they want is more flexible politics and are searching for a way to make that happen. Lowering tag sizes does not do this perfectly but at least over the long term it does to some extent.

It is those who are opposed who cry 'it will doom the playerbase' forcing those who don't agree to come up with reasons why it won't. It does not force those who don't agree to come up with reasons why it will increase the playerbase.

As you rightly state increasing the playerbase is about rather different things from advertising to providing new methods of communication. If these were happening and the playerbase were increasing then I doubt anyone were arguing for decreasing the limits. But at the moment it is declining and the tag sizes are not decreasing in line with the playerbase.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:53   #533
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
I believe people simply grouw out of this game bacause the game itself is out of date. I like out of date to a certain degree, but i don't like less players.
I absolutely agree with your analysis here... and likely everyone will.
The politics is not PA's core problem but that doesn't mean that it is not an issue.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:54   #534
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

What? we have 6 full/near full tags. Someone arrest me here, but havent the last couple rounds seen more full tags than has been the norm the past couple years?
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:57   #535
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Theres a lot of people raising valid points in this thread. A lot of people trying to make a point of whats wrong with the game.

Whats wrong with the game is- if you want to join the game and do well, you have to join an alliance. In order to do that, you have to be prepared to get up in the night. The game is played at night. Who in gods name would think to themselves that without knowing how good the game is, reading the jargon of the manual and then having sleepless nights sounds attractive.

We were all 15 when we joined, we are now all old and soon enough we will all be 60 and playing the game. The same faces run the game in terms of alliances and thats the way it will be. But how on earth do you sell the prospect of setting an alarm to live launch, or scanning for the greater good with no incentive to do so. New people cant be expected to appreciate the anticipation of opening a jgp scan and seeing no def, or looking at a brep to find the def was fake.

The formula for achieving a t100 planet couldnt be simpler. Those who get roided early on and get bashed are the ones who dont get how to play the value game (apart from the outrageous but fun xp exploitation a few rounds ago).

The player base is dwindling because the game is about as attractive to a new player as licking wee off a thistle.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 21:58   #536
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

in response to Chimpie - there are a hand full of other games out there like PA bushtarion,********,AD2460 ect that players would be interested in joining our community or groups of players like GROSS as an example they played alot of different games under the alliance/group tag (GROSS)
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 22:02   #537
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Gross moved out of PA half a decade ago. I'm with Virall here. It's like polishing a 1977 Toyota Corolla, thinking someone will buy it
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 22:08   #538
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

You see, we all agree with that.
The matter in question is whether we actually want someone to buy it or whether you are happy with it sitting rusting!
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 22:15   #539
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

ok rather than whined, i tried...

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...=1#post3240508

go disect please so i can refine the ideas into something that may work
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 22:18   #540
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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This.

This is the problem with pa and EVERYTHING i have been spouting about.
Bbecause you are right, you are quite within your rights to not play for #1. And your members are free to leave. I agree with you 1000000%.

But you fail to recognise, that if you don't play for #1, but block the universe up, it stagnates it.
It is easy for you to say 'get others to join you and help' but everyone knows that won't happen because...
1) you have openly supported half the top 5. The other half can't fight for #1 because they have to fight not only the #1 but also all your allies and their allies to.

2) You make agreements with the attitude 'we are playing for us, not you'. And make no concessions.

It is for these reasons that I openly call you a coward. And that is why you don't like me.

The game can't support these naptarion blocks, yet you insist on making them round after round.
I think you are spot on Forest... NAPtarion as it is today, its suppose to be a war game. The best way I can put it is...

When the donkey isn't pulling the cart give them a bigger carrot
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...upjf-Y8jV8NyY0

What the Members need is more rewards (or plunder for BlackFlag members) to put pressure on the HCs
What the HCs need is more political options to goto war.

My suggestion is to change some of the Dynamics of Planetarion to cater for this.

One suggestion I do have is having alliance golden roids that would change PA from FFA (free for all) to Capture the flag culture.
(other suggestions from others are welcomed)

Have an incentive reward like an alliance wide mining bonus to keep your own golden roids where there is suffient reason to attack an alliance and some reward for capturing other alliance's roids but at the same time tweak the formula to prevent bottom feeding smaller alliances.

1. If you lose your alliance roid(s) there could be a mining percentage loss
that would put pressure on HCs from their members to make up for the loss.
2. Could give HCs reason enough to war with the alliance that has their Golden roid.
3. Give a mining bonus for all alliance members in order of alliance ranking for each respective captured. ie capturing the top alliance golen roid(s) gives a bigger reward than capturing #8 alliance golden roid.

Also have some sort of reward to contend for the alliance win.
I see free credits are no longer a big enough carrot for alliances.
I have considered the possiblity of a mining bonus for the winning alliance to carry over to the next round but may cause a problem if that same alliance doesn't play next round.

Truth is I would like to reconsider playing planetarion as my current Civ5/ beyond earth replacement just isn't the same as PA.
But the current NAPtarion culture is off putting.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 22:24   #541
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
You see, we all agree with that.
The matter in question is whether we actually want someone to buy it or whether you are happy with it sitting rusting!
If you want someone to buy cars from you, you simply don't sell an out of date corolla. You sell something for the masses. There are things one can do, wich has been mentioned countless times. A less confusing portal and manual for starters, better graphics, an integrated way of communicating that isnt a poor ingame irc script, etc. Imagine yourself being a new player, this game is quite tricky to figure out, just look at how many planets that stays on 0 roids or don't do anything after initiating for the first time. It's not pleasing on the eye and it's not user friendly(much like the old corrolla), but once you figure it all out then you discover the potential within(much like the corrolla).

Thats my views on how you can bump the playerbase. Make it more usefriendly and more pleasing on the eye. When thats done then it might even be worth advertising.

One of the things i remember fondly from when i started were the old techtree, with the routes and possibilities outlined with cool graphics showing you what you could potentially gain by continuing playing and researching new stuff. The game stopped renewing itself, and got stripped down to a technical spreadsheet game for nerds.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 23:02   #542
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
If you want someone to buy cars from you, you simply don't sell an out of date corolla. You sell something for the masses. There are things one can do, wich has been mentioned countless times. A less confusing portal and manual for starters, better graphics, an integrated way of communicating that isnt a poor ingame irc script, etc. Imagine yourself being a new player, this game is quite tricky to figure out, just look at how many planets that stays on 0 roids or don't do anything after initiating for the first time. It's not pleasing on the eye and it's not user friendly(much like the old corrolla), but once you figure it all out then you discover the potential within(much like the corrolla).

Thats my views on how you can bump the playerbase. Make it more usefriendly and more pleasing on the eye. When thats done then it might even be worth advertising.

One of the things i remember fondly from when i started were the old techtree, with the routes and possibilities outlined with cool graphics showing you what you could potentially gain by continuing playing and researching new stuff. The game stopped renewing itself, and got stripped down to a technical spreadsheet game for nerds.
Completely agree. I also miss the politcial in fighting within galaxies for GC with the mining bonus that came with it as well as the Minister positions, but maybe that's asking to much?
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 23:05   #543
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Oh really. I'm engaging in a debate, you're just whining how the game is broken because you were on the losing side.





And that's just two quotes. I can't be bothered to find anymore.

Also, if I recall correctly, you did a lot of crying when Ultores slapped you down in your reunion round too.

When BF got blocked by 5 or so tags this round, you didn't see us crying. We plowed through and got on with it. The same with Ultores. But when p3n gets hit the game's broken. lol.
hows that whining ? thats a lot of sarcasm, but for sure no whining

i was just pointing out that this round is over
ND and BF decided that their top ambition is to have Ultores win

even when bf and nd agreed to a cf with p3n with the added clause, that as soon as we hit ult - you can cancel the agreement
even then i wasnt whining
we just took it and ofc hitted ult

ofc at the same time you were gloriously speaking here on AD that if the other alliances cant bring down ult - its their business - not yours

apparently though when we hit ult with ct - it was of your business again - cause you started hitting p3n once more
but ofc you had added this clause to the agreement

am i whining about this ? i dont think so

its just sad to see how your handing ult the win -
and all i asked is to stop the round, since the ticks were down allready
cause nothing will change till the end of the round - apart from roids gone from p3n to ult/bf/nd
and afterwards maybe from CT to the same block

and still all you do is patting yourselves on the back for how you guys are dominating this round

and no i dont whine about it - i just want the next round to start
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 00:30   #544
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

I wonder if p3nguins people just found out how to start posting on the forums, and now seems to tell everyone else the same things thats been said thousand times allready in here.

ill try do a little recap over the last stagnation rounds i can remeber, without trying to point fingers at anyone more than needed.

R45 Ultores and xVx was sitting in #1 and #2, xVx refusing to split apart from Ultores to try go for the win. CT/ND/FAnG decided to bully xVx out of their top planet rankings due to their choice to stagnate the round. The next round half the memberbase had left xVx.

R51 The Galatic Vikings(with Clouds in command) decided to let Apprime win the round, refusing to break off their preround block even though it meant they couldnt win. Everyone bullied TGV.
The next round TGV disbanded.

R56 Vikings(with Clouds in command) decides to preround block Spore, handing them the win.
When they finaly decided(Im not sure who broke off, perhaps it was Spore leaving Viks) end the NAP, the round was allready over. The next round Vikings had lost half their memberbase.

R59 BF(with Clouds in command), alongside Ultores, decided to let P3nguins win the round. Leaving the round going into stangation.

R60 BF(with Clouds in command) decide that they dont want to risk anything, and refuses to help out p3ng/CT, leading the round into stagnation.


----

All these rounds were more or less exactly like this one, yet i did not hear any of the p3nguins comming out crying over how boring the poltics was last round?
How could you see this one comming? Clouds and BF giving the finger to what everyone else cares for yet again. Why dont you just attack them instead then?
YOU as HCs are responsibole for how the polticis will flow, if you encourage blocking and stagnation, then there will be times where your not on the winning sides of things.
Cutting tags into 30 members wont help anything, it will just ruin what good is still left in this game.
If you want to go play for fun, or try out how fun it realy is in a 30 man tag, go join Vikings/ODDR/FL, and then come back telling your story about it. Perhaps someone will listen more closely to your arguments if you actualy have experinced how it realy is.

Ultores won this round because they had by far the best fleet strat, and had their eyes on the price the whole round. Add that up with "luck" in regards of politics, and what seems to be by far the most active memberbase this round, i dont think PA has ever had any alliance deserving the win more than Ultores.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 01:22   #545
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Ultores won this round because they had by far the best fleet strat, and had their eyes on the price the whole round. Add that up with "luck" in regards of politics, and what seems to be by far the most active memberbase this round, i dont think PA has ever had any alliance deserving the win more than Ultores.
i like you now bb first post i can relate to, Ultores deserved alliance win due to the determination of Agar3s sitting up all night and DC`ing alongside another few great Dc`s during our wars as-well as all the players being online to cover ect..GG to p3n tho for being one of the few alliances to try.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 01:37   #546
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Alot of this is so stupid reading.

Got to hand it to Londo for being in the loosing side of this round in p3nguins and actually managing to write reflected answers and views on how this round went down.

Forest/Morpheus get a grip! You try to come off as your writing things for the better good, not biased at all but every post you make shimmer of annoyance and frustration that the round did not go the way you wanted and that you were not able to influence politics the way you had hoped.

This was only ONE round of pa were ult had their great dcs commited, choose the best shipstrat and was able to keep fighting 1vs1 earlie without interference.

Yes i dont know all the behind the scenes of politics. But please man up and dont make a fool of yourselfs especially to you morph who are usually a intelligent and funny man!

Cheers,
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 02:33   #547
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
R51 The Galatic Vikings(with Clouds in command) decided to let Apprime win the round, refusing to break off their preround block even though it meant they couldnt win. Everyone bullied TGV.
The next round TGV disbanded.
Firstly, the member-base of TGV didn't disband, the name was merely changed to Vikings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
R56 Vikings(with Clouds in command) decides to preround block Spore, handing them the win.
When they finaly decided(Im not sure who broke off, perhaps it was Spore leaving Viks) end the NAP, the round was allready over. The next round Vikings had lost half their memberbase.
Secondly, you do not have all the details of why Vikings disbanded. Due to a disagreement between myself and other members of the Vikings command, I decided to leave where certain core members followed. Vikings DID NOT disband due to certain political decisions.

Both of these occasions, I was not the breadwinner, and I don't know why you keep associating me as the face of these alliances. It was RexDrax in charge, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
R59 BF(with Clouds in command), alongside Ultores, decided to let P3nguins win the round. Leaving the round going into stangation.

R60 BF(with Clouds in command) decide that they dont want to risk anything, and refuses to help out p3ng/CT, leading the round into stagnation.
This is what separates me from other HCs. Where others may have more ambition to win, they will do anything to achieve this (even backstab their friends). I don't agree with this notion.

All this talk about backstabbing to go for the win is quite disgusting. The thought of backstabbing a round long friend just to go for the win sickens me. CT did it to us a few rounds back, and to be honest, I was very disappointed in them.

I think Ultores, currently, is one of the most non-backstabbing and loyal alliances left in this game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
All these rounds were more or less exactly like this one, yet i did not hear any of the p3nguins comming out crying over how boring the poltics was last round?
How could you see this one comming? Clouds and BF giving the finger to what everyone else cares for yet again. Why dont you just attack them instead then?
p3nguins and their little block already tried to coerce us into backstabbing Ultores. Though, they will deny it, but their terms of a ceasefire was pretty clear. Did it make us cave? No. Once we commit to a certain alliance (or alliances), we will honour that commitment.

We will not play the backstabbing game. If you want to try and coerce us into backstabbing our friend(s), then let's dance. You won't achieve anything.

Last edited by Clouds; 20 Feb 2015 at 04:21.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 07:18   #548
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by vuLgAr View Post
the HC's DC's BC's in smaller tags are no worse than the ones in the top tags

also there seems to be an assumption in these parts that because a tag is full it's elite :P dafuq

there also seems to be a blame it on the players in the tag mentality compared to football where the blame gets placed on the management, in PA it's the fault of the players in a tag... infact no im wrong everyone of you complaining idiots throws blame at everything.... sound like females to me.
we have dc's ?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 07:20   #549
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
R45 Ultores and xVx was sitting in #1 and #2, xVx refusing to split apart from Ultores to try go for the win. CT/ND/FAnG decided to bully xVx out of their top planet rankings due to their choice to stagnate the round. The next round half the memberbase had left xVx.
xVx were actually hitting ult but refused to join the big block, up until the point the block started hitting xVx. You stagnated that round by driving xVx into the arms of ult, when there was no need to. I said this then, and i'll say it again. I don't accept being bullied. And for the record, half the memberbase didnt leave, a third did(mainly the fance gal people).
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 07:23   #550
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
R51 The Galatic Vikings(with Clouds in command) decided to let Apprime win the round, refusing to break off their preround block even though it meant they couldnt win. Everyone bullied TGV.
The next round TGV disbanded.

R56 Vikings(with Clouds in command) decides to preround block Spore, handing them the win.
When they finaly decided(Im not sure who broke off, perhaps it was Spore leaving Viks) end the NAP, the round was allready over. The next round Vikings had lost half their memberbase.

R59 BF(with Clouds in command), alongside Ultores, decided to let P3nguins win the round. Leaving the round going into stangation.

R60 BF(with Clouds in command) decide that they dont want to risk anything, and refuses to help out p3ng/CT, leading the round into stagnation.
You are wrong , what really stagnates a round, is HC's of said alliances approaching the others after tick850, while they should have put their neck out at around tick 600 already.
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