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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 21:10   #1
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booji stats proposals

I made a post earlier about emp for Terrans and since it was for this that I posted it I may be disappointing some people when you find I have ultimately gone for a pretty traditional set in terms of what ships are in what races. No Cakonians or Terthaar in this set I’m afraid!

For this set I have drawn inspiration from this round and taken its unusual feature of de being like fi/co in having no def from the metaclass below a step further and done this for ter bs too. To compensate somewhat I have added in a couple of emp ships from the metaclass below which are then not targeted back which will be very useful last ditch def ships something which I hope will prevent de being op as it possibly is a bit this round or the bs.

This does lead to ter bs being very ususal; it neither has a teamup partner (not so unusual) and only has one combat ship. This ship however fires before all other kill ships (though as with all ter not with great D/C) so the second layer emp def may be very important (except having gone traditional I won’t have the emp eff particularly good against Terrans). As a result I will be very interested to hear if you think it is OP as a result.

Another slightly unusual feature is that while I have avoided kill ships firing on themselves I have not done so with emp. This means there are some useful emp defships that can’t be killed hitting their own fleets on T2. This I think/hope will mean the couple of etd stealers are much more useful than they usually are as etd can emp the classes it is attempting to steal (which are also its own attack fleets). This again is something some could object to due to a possible op result.

Of course as with any stats set at the end I am left with some questions and things I don’t know what to do with:
  • Should there be a Beetle emp targeting Fi as well as the Spider?
  • Should the Voyager made cloak rather than emp? (this to me damages that steal option, but there is only one etd cloaked ship and it is frankly not very good!)
  • Should the Guardian have T1 Bs (possibly dropping the T2)?
  • Get rid of Thief and give Buccaneer T2 fr? (because Zik has a lot more ships than the others)
There are probably others I can’t think of atm, and I am sure plenty of changes will be suggested!

Unfortunately I have no clue how the formula for emp resistance works so I have left that off atm and I am thinking of approximately t1 against Xan 170-190%, Cat/Etd 160-170%, Zik 150-160%, Ter 130-150%. This is pretty similar or marginally less on average than this round. But I think this round is a little above the norm. So happy to hear everyone’s thoughts on what emp effectiveness should be.

Please take a look at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

This is the first set I have put up here on the forums, though I have thought about sets before none have worked, so be gentle in the skewering you are about to give me!

I will try to hold off responding for a couple of days to get an better overview of the reactions and suggestions rather than interjecting and changing things ad hoc after every post as I am wont to do.

Be warned, hate on this set too much and I will do a Terthaar one!
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 21:18   #2
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Re: booji stats proposals

Xan FI looks too strong.
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 22:28   #3
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Xan FI looks too strong.
Someone always says that
Ally def against xan FI may be poor but ingal def may not be
The pegasus will be a pain for them as a potential suicide def, and can be supported by scarabs which the FI dont touch.
I guess the ally def against FI issue is the reason booji asked whether there should be a cat beetle (presumably CO) as emp targetting FI which would mean two ally def emp ships to use (new beetle plus voyager) and no less than three ingal emp ships (ranger, scarab and roach). Given xan is usually very vulnerable to emp this surely counters their initiative advantage reasonably.
The scarab will also seriously interfere with xan fakes, the ability to send a ship that would stop a fake at no risk to itself is surely a major impediment, moreover the scarab is also a natural ship for allies to send against xan FR, so defence against FR automatically stops the FI fake aswell.
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 23:03   #4
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Someone always says that
Ally def against xan FI may be poor but ingal def may not be
The pegasus will be a pain for them as a potential suicide def, and can be supported by scarabs which the FI dont touch.
I guess the ally def against FI issue is the reason booji asked whether there should be a cat beetle (presumably CO) as emp targetting FI which would mean two ally def emp ships to use (new beetle plus voyager) and no less than three ingal emp ships (ranger, scarab and roach). Given xan is usually very vulnerable to emp this surely counters their initiative advantage reasonably.
The scarab will also seriously interfere with xan fakes, the ability to send a ship that would stop a fake at no risk to itself is surely a major impediment, moreover the scarab is also a natural ship for allies to send against xan FR, so defence against FR automatically stops the FI fake aswell.
Pegs is off class.
Xan FI is cloacked.
I havnt looked at EMP eff yet, but it looks too strong
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 23:10   #5
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Pegs is off class.
Xan FI is cloacked.
I havnt looked at EMP eff yet, but it looks too strong
Good thing you havnt looked at the EMP eff yet because you wont find it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Unfortunately I have no clue how the formula for emp resistance works so I have left that off atm and I am thinking of approximately t1 against Xan 170-190%, Cat/Etd 160-170%, Zik 150-160%, Ter 130-150%. This is pretty similar or marginally less on average than this round. But I think this round is a little above the norm. So happy to hear everyone’s thoughts on what emp effectiveness should be.
So by 'looks too strong' you mean 'I suggest that effs be lower than average' ?
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 23:36   #6
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Re: booji stats proposals

It has been pointed out to me that you cannot possibly have meant emp is too strong, rather must have meant xan is still too strong.
In which case can you clarify: it would still be too strong if a beetle was added or not.
Do you want a kill ship with a lower init? If so I suggest the peg should be moved down to 4 since to have a low init CO would, bearing in mind my previous comment as well, probably destroy the effectiveness of xan FI imo.
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 23:44   #7
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Re: booji stats proposals

the Ter BS is unstoppable as it is now (offensively). imagine how much CR you would need to stop even a casual player. I like the idea of the 1 tick defense against a capital class, however not when you only have to build 1 ship to counter it, that fires before all it's opponents (bar EMP). In this set i would go Ter, with 40% wyvern, 35% FR and 25% syren and try to grab some FR pods with cov-ops for faking. The only 'good' thing about this setup is that you can't fake BS with DE(or at least, when covering BS you automatically cover DE with all races but cath). Add a couple of defplanets with pure drake and pure viper to it and you'd pretty much have everything locked up from a defensive point of view.
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Unread 27 Apr 2015, 00:00   #8
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Re: booji stats proposals

I find it odd that in these threads people wail unstoppable at anything which doesnt have a def ship that fires before the attack fleet. As though EMP is a negligible thing that really makes no difference at all.
For the stats set currently in use it was CR teamups in particular that got this treatment. (example: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...0&postcount=74 ) Yeah they are powerful but Im not sure they are sweeping the board.

OTOH, if there were a ship that fired before said attack fleet another bunch of people would brand the stats too defensive and thus unplayable!
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Unread 27 Apr 2015, 00:03   #9
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Re: booji stats proposals

The Bs fleet (not the fi!) was the one I was expecting ppl to say is op. So to clarify my earlier question about it how far would you advocate reducing the D/C and A/C before it becomes not op?
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Unread 27 Apr 2015, 00:35   #10
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I find it odd that in these threads people wail unstoppable at anything which doesnt have a def ship that fires before the attack fleet. As though EMP is a negligible thing that really makes no difference at all.
For the stats set currently in use it was CR teamups in particular that got this treatment. (example: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...0&postcount=74 ) Yeah they are powerful but Im not sure they are sweeping the board.

OTOH, if there were a ship that fired before said attack fleet another bunch of people would brand the stats too defensive and thus unplayable!
I think you got me wrong there, it isn't unstoppable because it fires first, but the fact you can have a 1 ship attackfleet means you can sink 40-60% in a single ship. If that ship than also fires before other killships, you got a recepy for an overpowered ship in your hands. Unless you give that ship a ridiculously low D/C or the associated pods a ridiculously low E/R that is.
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Unread 27 Apr 2015, 04:56   #11
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Re: booji stats proposals

yeah i was well aware of what you meant. However, to give it another ship would basically destroy the distinctive feature of the stat set in having a FI/CO style single tick def attack fleet for each meta class.
The only possible solution would be to have a BS targeting BS, but to have an attack fleet hitting itself is generally considered a bad thing.
The Slyph does this atm, so could Terr CO players come forward and say whether this has proved an issue? If it has not then a Dragon with init 9, an exceptionally high A/C and exceptionally low D/C might be possible.
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Unread 27 Apr 2015, 19:41   #12
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Re: booji stats proposals

i like this set much better then the one on beta even though i didnt spent much time looking at it yet
but it makes me "yes i wanna play that one", compared to my "ohh no not again" thoughts on the beta-set.

will take some time soon to look closer and be of help with tweaking - if i can
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Unread 27 Apr 2015, 20:25   #13
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
i like this set much better then the one on beta even though i didnt spent much time looking at it yet
but it makes me "yes i wanna play that one", compared to my "ohh no not again" thoughts on the beta-set.

will take some time soon to look closer and be of help with tweaking - if i can
Well the Ultores set is surely a "oh not again"-set for many of us.
Though i think its far closer to be picked than this one
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Unread 28 Apr 2015, 11:46   #14
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well the Ultores set is surely a "oh not again"-set for many of us.
Though i think its far closer to be picked than this one
3 pod class set? I think not
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Unread 28 Apr 2015, 11:58   #15
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
many of us
Translation: you, and you alone.

Lonji/boodo: I'll look at these when they're up on beta, once Blue_Esper is done with it.
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Unread 28 Apr 2015, 12:33   #16
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Lonji/boodo: I'll look at these when they're up on beta, once Blue_Esper is done with it.
It is booji's set, he made them, i just looked through them before he posted them here.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 15:44   #17
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Re: booji stats proposals

I have it on good authority that the beta server is available!
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Unread 1 May 2015, 04:51   #18
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Re: booji stats proposals

they uploaded on beta right ?

xan and etd both only having 1 ship to target FR - seems very limited
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Unread 1 May 2015, 07:14   #19
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Xan FI looks too strong.
As I am usually in the hate xan fi squad along with you I am always quite receptive to this. But in this case I am not sure it is the case. There is a lot of emp around and it is very good against xan. Also xan needs to be good at roiding as it is one of the races that is easier roided - everyone can roid xan with one fleet or the other. As such it needs to be quick at getting roids back. I am of course open to other opinions on this. If there is a general consensus that they are too strong then I can either
a, make the peg fire before banshee
b, add a beetle
c, fiddle with armour and damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
I think you got me wrong there, it [Ter bs] isn't unstoppable because it fires first, but the fact you can have a 1 ship attackfleet means you can sink 40-60% in a single ship. If that ship than also fires before other killships, you got a recepy for an overpowered ship in your hands. Unless you give that ship a ridiculously low D/C or the associated pods a ridiculously low E/R that is.
Yes this is why I was posing the question about the fleet and what d/c it should have. I had not thought of Londo's suggestion of creating a dragon targeting other dragons when making the stats but it may well be a better alternative. I would however like more opinions before I make the changes. If I dont get them here I will go and ask questions of the terran co players in rogues to see how they have found sylphs this round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
i like this set much better then the one on beta even though i didnt spent much time looking at it yet
but it makes me "yes i wanna play that one", compared to my "ohh no not again" thoughts on the beta-set.
Thank you very much. And a thank you for making this round's set which was the inspiration.
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Unread 1 May 2015, 07:34   #20
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
they uploaded on beta right ?
Yes I spent the last couple of nights putting them onto beta - manual adding ftl! Which is also why I had not announced, wanted to check for any other silly mistakes like:
7:33 PM <Londo> Brig steal init 201
7:33 PM <Londo> 5 ticks after everyone else has gone home the brigs sneak up on you

But YES! M0 is right they are now on beta.
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=143962622748 if anyone does not know!
Having not taken how emp works into account when doing my stats I have made some changes compared to my googledocs version:
Increased the cost of Illusion and Phantom - bringing into line with the banshee
Hornet cost increase - so that it is empd at similar eff to the other cr
Guardian cost increase - so that it is as good (well marginally better) in eff as the Black Widow (but worse init to compensate)

More importantly
The Guardian had its targeting swapped to cr/bs so that emp could be fairly even on both cr and bs.
The Roach had likewise to fi/co for the same reason.
The Ranger removed T2 fr as it was not going to work as the opposite of the Scarab.

Other changes:
Syren and Harpy damage increased as was looking every low on cost eff. Syren I reduced its very heavy armour a little at the same time.
Locust changed name to Dragonfly as that is more common name as de pod.
Liquidator changed to Cutpurse as sounds more zik (despite often being an etd ship)
Fireblade changed to Wraith as more often used these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
xan and etd both only having 1 ship to target FR - seems very limited
The etd one was a casualty of the emp system! The ranger had T2 fr, could make the guardian have T3 instead so still giving etd some emp on fr.
Other alternatives would be a T2 on the broker or a completely new De or Cr ship. Open to opinions here.

The xan I had not really considered and to be honest they are so lacking in de that I doubt there would be much point in a new de ship as it would necessarily be firing after the ghost and probably the investor too or be too damaging to the fr fleet which is probably already not the best. Alternative would be a cr or a T2 on the Wraith (increasing wraith init to 9 at the same time). Again open to others preferences on this.

Other changes I am considering:
To Cat
A Beetle t1 fi (no t2) as emp on fi if Xan fi considered too strong.

To Ter
A Dragon t1 bs (no t2)
More general increase in damage - will think about it once done some calcs.

To Etd:
To make up for Ranger losing T2 on fr T2 on co would work. Might also compensate somewhat if adding these other anti fr measures for etd and xan m0 is suggesting.

Lots of things I want your input on there! and I am sure you will give input on other things I have not thought of.
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Unread 1 May 2015, 19:50   #21
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Re: booji stats proposals

God i hate this set of stats 11 ships not counting pods for Zik....... Wtf?
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Unread 1 May 2015, 20:04   #22
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Re: booji stats proposals

thats not very constructive: what do you hate about it?
Zik too many ships? care to suggest how some may be eliminated?

Its only 10 really, galleon is basically a pod.

Edit: In practice you do not really need the FR/DE. I think they are there mostly so that if ziks cap pods in those classes they can build an attack fleet in them if they want.
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Unread 1 May 2015, 21:54   #23
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Re: booji stats proposals

I gave zik lots of ships so that they have lots of options on how to steal things, what fleets to create etc. They seem to me to have more use for such options than any other race so I gave them options.
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Unread 1 May 2015, 22:17   #24
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Re: booji stats proposals

Part of the problem is that ziks have to build so many ships because the lack of in class stealing, also the lack of T2's they have, they have 2 where most races(except xan) have 3+
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Unread 1 May 2015, 22:21   #25
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Re: booji stats proposals

I'm not attached to the individual stats but the overall concept give me some idea which you would get rid of and which you would add t2s too and I will think about it.

I had thought of merging the thief and buccaneer. Views?

Btw what do you mean by in class stealing? Wouldn't having zik ships stealing themselves pose even more of a problem than the proposal for a dragon?
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Unread 2 May 2015, 03:01   #26
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Re: booji stats proposals

Zik has a Res stealer. The other ships can be anything and it will be still good.

Besides that, in my pov every zik in the last 10 rounds followed one of those patterns:

- 3 NORMAL ships, one awesome, two average
- 2 NORMAL ships, both awesome
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Unread 2 May 2015, 04:32   #27
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Re: booji stats proposals

In class stealing is either, Co Stealing fi or Co. Mean that you are stealing ships inside the same metaclass as itself. One of the worst things for zik is when they steal a bunch of Fr with Their Co def ship and suddenly they have no more Co for their Co pods. Zik need just enough T2 and argueably T3 ships to concentrate their value into 2 or 3 classes so they can keep proper fleet values instead of stealing 500k Bs of which they have no bs pods or worthwhile Bs ships.

I dont have time to pick and choose specific ships but you should try and merge 2 or 3 ships together giving them T2's.
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Unread 2 May 2015, 05:52   #28
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Re: booji stats proposals

i think zik needs the most changes

1) way too many stealships with just 1 target like tia stated

2) at the same time they got 2 normal targeting ships both hitting Frigates

Cath seems easily overpowered (depending on effs ofc) with all those t2 emping on classes that cant hit back
e.g. a cath can build both de + viper all round and can easily cover any co, fi and bs fakes since they dont risk their fleet against those
rather big advantage imo

not saying the feature should be removed completely - but maybe it should be available for only a few ships/classes
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Unread 2 May 2015, 05:52   #29
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
In class stealing is either, Co Stealing fi or Co. Mean that you are stealing ships inside the same metaclass as itself. One of the worst things for zik is when they steal a bunch of Fr with Their Co def ship and suddenly they have no more Co for their Co pods.
Is that not exactly what I have? the Co steals fi and the cr bs. Both have the norm ship firing on fr.
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Unread 2 May 2015, 09:33   #30
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Re: booji stats proposals

I hate 0-loss, because I feel races should be able to solo (even if teamups do better), and that the effectiveness of defending fleets should be proportional to their size. It would be acceptable to have a *couple* of 0-loss EMP fleets, but half these stats seems to consist of them. I'll strive to remove all of them.

Get rid of the 3-ship fleets. The only way they can compete offensively with 2-ship fleets is if their D/C is hilarious, as in, +25%, which has obvious other problems.

Ter Bs is equally problematic, except it's on the other extreme. If De no longer fires at Fi, it can fire at Bs instead, and that allows you to turn Bs into a proper (though still solo) roiding fleet by adding a Ter Bs with T1 De.

Cat is far too strong. Lots of T2, and the effs you list are 10-20% too high.

Cat De with the Viper covers all classes with just 3 ships, and nothing out-inits it. No other fleet has that advantage. There's no point in building the slow-ass Spider kill ship if I have a fast-ass EMP ship. Fast-ass is totally a word. Dropping the second target on the Scarab as part of fixing Ter Bs forces Cat to build 4 ships, at least. On top of that, you could drop Roach T2 or move Viper to class Bs with only a T1 De.

Xan is weak (an impressive achievement!). The general lack of T2 makes it hard for them to do well. Xan has no anti-Bs until Siege, and the Peacekeeper is bad. With these stats, I probably wouldn't even bother researching it and just go for balls-to-the-wall offense. Suggest Ghost T1 Co, T2 Fi, Init 5, Bolt Thrower T1 Cr, T2 De, Init 7.

There's same-init cross-stealing between the Buccaneer and Rogue, and the Brig and Thief. The combat engine does not handle that very well, should be fixed.

Zik's 2 kill ships both fire at Fr.

I don't really see the point of Zik Fr/De. I mean, yeah, you want some ships there in case you accidentally steal something, but you don't need 4 ships for that. And even if I do steal into Fr or De, I really don't want to build the Brig or Thief, which risk stealing into yet another class. I'd be inclined to remove the Thief and the Brig entirely, move the Buccaneer to Fr, Mara to kill T1 De, Init 5 or 7, Rogue to steal T1 Fr, T2 Bs, Init 19?

Etd seems alright.
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Unread 2 May 2015, 23:16   #31
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Re: booji stats proposals

it seems to me that that rather comprehensibly destroys anything that was distinctive about the stats set and booji might as well start again, but i guess he will respond himself when BF stops crushing us and gives him some time!
The core idea was that BS and DE would not have 2 tick defence against them with kill ships: and the advantage this confers would be partially offset by letting some emp hit them from faster classes (which would necessarily be 0 loss def because the BS/DE by definition couldnt hit back or you would have to have kill ships firing at them in turn).
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Unread 2 May 2015, 23:23   #32
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Re: booji stats proposals

The one problem i have with this rounds stats is the De class. Not having lower eta ships firing is a problem it turns De into Fi/co which has ALWAYs been an issue and specially if you only have to build 1 ship. Scarab from this round. It means you have so much focused value into your attack that your VERY hard to stop and especially if you give them pre-fire init.

Booji i like the idea of the stats but i just think we need to see something normal for a round and get these past 2 rounds stats behind us. This is going to be Summer Round stats which usually get a drop in Player activity anyway so we might as well save anything new and dynamic for the winter rounds.
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Unread 3 May 2015, 07:00   #33
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Re: booji stats proposals

The point was kinda that if several have 1 def tick only then FI/CO doesn't have the same inherent advantage. I recognise that its hard for ally def (as I defend more than attack myself) but people always used to moan stats are too defensive!
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Unread 3 May 2015, 09:46   #34
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Booji i like the idea of the stats but i just think we need to see something normal for a round and get these past 2 rounds stats behind us. This is going to be Summer Round stats which usually get a drop in Player activity anyway so we might as well save anything new and dynamic for the winter rounds.
Probably still makes sense to get this set down to being a workable set. So far as I am aware no one else is demanding use of the beta server for stats atm.

And I would love to make a really defensive set of stats (being one of the most defensive players in the game) but I think everyone else would hate them

I'll respond to mz (and make a load of changes though not all mz wants) later today.
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Unread 3 May 2015, 15:42   #35
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
it seems to me that that rather comprehensibly destroys anything that was distinctive about the stats set and booji might as well start again, but i guess he will respond himself when BF stops crushing us and gives him some time!
The general problem I have with these stats is twofold. Their very distinctiveness makes our experience judging stats less useful. More importantly, the wide variety in roiding fleets makes it a nightmare to balance these stats. There's standard 2-race 2-ship roiding fleets, there's the Ter Bs solo oddity, there's a bunch of 3-ship fleets, there's (EMP) 0-loss against some fleets but not others...

That said, I admit to a certain level of conservatism when it comes to ship stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Probably still makes sense to get this set down to being a workable set. So far as I am aware no one else is demanding use of the beta server for stats atm.
It'd be nice to have 3 sets to choose from, so ideally, you'd leave enough time for one more person to use the beta server (though I don't know of another set in active development). Signups open on the 22nd, so assuming a set takes about 2 weeks to make, and that the beta server is not needed for all of that time, that would give you until the 10th or so. Plenty of time, so I see no reason to shoot you down when your stats aren't even done yet.

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I'll respond to mz (and make a load of changes though not all mz wants) later today.
They're just suggestions, do with them what you will.
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Unread 3 May 2015, 23:29   #36
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Re: booji stats proposals

I was anticipating that I would be done by the end of the round, or just after at the latest. Now if BF/p3n would kindly target someone else to give me a little more time!
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They're just suggestions, do with them what you will.
Maybe so but barring the second coming of JBG yours is the opinion on this board I rate highest when it comes to stats (or most other things for that matter). I tend to agree with your views, or else when reading your posts think “why did I not see that!” So since I think I have found ways to reconcile most of your suggestions with the overall philosophy of the set then lets run with it and see where things end up, starting with the easiest things:
Quote:
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There's same-init cross-stealing between the Buccaneer and Rogue, and the Brig and Thief. The combat engine does not handle that very well, should be fixed.
This I simply did not notice, both are transcription errors in transferring over from my spreadsheet that did not have this problem.

That said since some of the ships involved are about to disappear it matters little.
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I don't really see the point of Zik Fr/De…. I'd be inclined to remove the Thief and the Brig entirely, move the Buccaneer to Fr
There seems to be consensus on this, done.
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Get rid of the 3-ship fleets.
I am not totally with this since it gives both xan and etd very good concentration of force I am concerned it may make then very strong compared to ter in particular. However it does not seem particularly difficult to do

Etd:
Added Ranger T2 de
Made Dealer T1 Co T2 Cr
Got rid of investor

And for xan done as suggested (though switched the names, for me the bolt thrower is and anti fi/co ship):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Suggest Ghost T1 Co, T2 Fi, Init 5, Bolt Thrower T1 Cr, T2 De, Init 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Cat is far too strong. Lots of T2, and the effs you list are 10-20% too high.
I was not sure of the emp effs to have, went off this round where quite a few of the T1’s have into the 180s which I thought on the high side (and that was before I went and made it so T1 and T2 are often relatively even) so have reduced a bit as suggested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Mara to kill T1 De, Init 5 or 7, Rogue to steal T1 Fr, T2 Bs, Init 19?
I personally think that this damages the cr team quite a lot as it means both the good init downward firing ships are targeted on de. Thus I have changed cat cr at the same time making Mantis T1 fr, dropping T2 and made Taranula T2 De.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Ter Bs is equally problematic, except it's on the other extreme. If De no longer fires at Fi, it can fire at Bs instead, and that allows you to turn Bs into a proper (though still solo) roiding fleet by adding a Ter Bs with T1 De.
The problem is of course that this goes against the philosophy of the set; that there should be as many classes as possible with only 1 tick def except for emp def. That said I don’t have a problem with the attack ships hitting the layer below just with the defships firing back. As such I have added a Dragon to target cr making the Wyvern target T1 De (I think of the Wyvern as being the downward firing of the two ships). Unfortunately I think if anything adding a second ter bs ship that targets de, but is only fired back by emp makes ter bs even stronger as it makes for awesome defence. As a result I have made it not a particularly good ship and T2 bs so doing what Londo suggested. I have also made the bs the exception to the general reduction in emp eff to compensate a bit.

I feel that these two changes hurt ter de a lot as they are down to only being able to hit etd and cat. And they don’t have the concentration of force that cat de or the two fr races have. However since the changes to xan fr have opened up an opportunity I have lowered the initiative of the Centaur making xan attackable by de.

I thought that swapping the Wraith and Centaur would put the Wraith firmly in the useless ships list so I have got rid of it entirely and added de as T2 to the Peacekeeper. I have also buffed its armour a bit to make it a bit less useless.
Quote:
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I hate 0-loss, because I feel races should be able to solo (even if teamups do better), and that the effectiveness of defending fleets should be proportional to their size. It would be acceptable to have a *couple* of 0-loss EMP fleets
Clearly what has been done already has taken out a few; of course with the Bs change the Guardian and the Black Widow are no longer 0 loss – though with only emp firing back you might well say the Dragon now is. I have eliminated the Voyager’s T2, hopefully the T1 on co from the Dealer is enough. This leaves the Viper and the Scarab both of which I am rather fond of as they are so I'm going to leave them for the moment. But the states are certainly no longer characterised by the excess of such ships it was before.

I personally think you are wrong when you say
Quote:
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Cat De with the Viper covers all classes with just 3 ships, and nothing out-inits it. No other fleet has that advantage. There's no point in building the slow-ass Spider kill ship if I have a fast-ass EMP ship.
That fast-ass emp ship happens to target xan fi with an eff of 58%. Useful for stopping fakes but any cat would be mad to rely on it, particularly given the tendency of xan fi to be full fleets or nothing. My intent with the Scarab T2 was that it would provide support to make Spiders a viable self def fleet not that they would work on their own. I have however taken out roach T2 so that it is just a choice of Roach or Spider.

All these changes should have helped deal with some of Tia’s problems too – the number of ships has been considerably reduced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
xan and etd both only having 1 ship to target FR - seems very limited
Both are indeed very vulnerable to fr, even more so after the changes. I don’t want to change xan, but I have added a cr class Tycoon targeting fr init 8 so before the Dealer. Should it have T2 de?

Otherwise what are peoples' views on this mass of changes?

N.B. there have also been some cost changes not mentioned above: battleships cost were increased making them less op. And some ships had their costs increased along with armour to make the emp eff changes such as the voyager.
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Unread 8 May 2015, 11:27   #37
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Re: booji stats proposals

Sorry, took me a while to get around to looking at your changed. Bit surprised no one else has responded before me. Anyway.

Viper covering 2 classes 0-loss is overkill. Suggest changing T1 to Fr or class to Fi. You're right about De being pretty weak now, so my preference is the former.

Ter De doesn't fire at Bs, allowing 0-loss defense by Ter Bs. Suggest giving Centaur T2 Bs, and Wyvern Init 6. The Centaur would be the only anti-Bs killship anyway, so lowering the Init on the Wyvern would have no other effects. On the other hand, Ter Bs is strong, and Ter De is a little on the weak side, so maybe Wyvern Init doesn't need changing? Or Wyvern to Init 6, T1 Bs, T2 De? All are reasonable options, in my view.

Wyvern's firing at Bs is... really weird. It's basically only there to fight itself, which makes Ter more roidswappy (totally a word), but only a little bit. I kind of like the notion of Wyverns as knights in full platemail hitting each other with pillows.

Etd Fr cannot roid anything. Drake, Banshee, Cutter and Tycoon all have superior Init, and Cat has the incredibly strong Scarab (EMP eff -10% please!). After Etd Fr, Etd Co is is the worst fleet in these stats. And finally, every fleet can roid them, except for Xan Fi, Zik Cr and Etd itself. That makes Etd very weak in general.

On the defense side of things, I'd suggest adding a Bs with T1 De and T2 Cr to Etd, either Init 1 EMP or Init 7 Norm, primarily to stop Cat De and both Cr fleets. I have a very mild preference for the latter option. As for offense, swapping Ranger T2 and Dealer T1 seems like a good first step, allowing them to roid Xan, Zik and Ter Bs (which is strong), but not Ter De (which is weak).

And a final point, pretty minor: Behemoth has less than half the ERes of other SKs, getting EMPed at a staggering 900%, compared to 350% for other SKs.

EMP effs in general are much improved. T1 effs look good now. However, T2 is normally significantly lower than T1, and that isn't the case in these stats. That's fine in principle, but in my opinion that means T1 should be a bit lower than usual. Another 5%?

Overall thoughts: I still think these need a couple more iterations of improvements before they're ready for primetime.
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Unread 8 May 2015, 14:38   #38
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Re: booji stats proposals

switching ranger t1 and t2 makes more sense and changing scarabs init to 2. ETD has an emp ship that fires at fi in its co roider, why does its' fr roiders need it as t1 as well? changing it to de makes them able to roid cath and ter. i think scarab should be init 2 to weaken the overpowered cath and give etd a fr roiding target.
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Unread 8 May 2015, 15:52   #39
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Sorry, took me a while to get around to looking at your changed. Bit surprised no one else has responded before me. Anyway.
Its been a bit quiet, was going to poke ppl once the round ended!

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Viper covering 2 classes 0-loss is overkill. Suggest changing T1 to Fr or class to Fi. You're right about De being pretty weak now, so my preference is the former.
My personal preference would be to make it just have one target. Either of these suggestions would have to involve re adding the T2 to the Roach or creating a new ship to target co, otherwise Cat has nothing targeting co which would be just a little bit of a disadvantage!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Ter De doesn't fire at Bs, allowing 0-loss defense by Ter Bs. Suggest giving Centaur T2 Bs, and Wyvern Init 6. The Centaur would be the only anti-Bs killship anyway, so lowering the Init on the Wyvern would have no other effects. On the other hand, Ter Bs is strong, and Ter De is a little on the weak side, so maybe Wyvern Init doesn't need changing? Or Wyvern to Init 6, T1 Bs, T2 De? All are reasonable options, in my view.
As mentioned before my view on this is pretty close to packing up and going home before doing this. Does not mean I wont after a bit more pressure though.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Etd Fr cannot roid anything. Drake, Banshee, Cutter and Tycoon all have superior Init, and Cat has the incredibly strong Scarab (EMP eff -10% please!).
Not sure we are on the same page here. In the set I am looking at the Ranger is emp init one T1 fi T2 de, so fires long before the Banshee and the Drake. Sure the Drake being Terran it is hardly awesome against the Drake but it is by no means terrible. The Tycoon firing first was entirely intentional and if Etd fr fired before the Cutter as well it would be firing before everything except Cat! There was an Etd/Xan fr combo pretty similar only a couple of rounds ago that everyone thought was op. I know the de here is a better counter to it than that round but still I dont want to keep beefing fr up.

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After Etd Fr, Etd Co is is the worst fleet in these stats. And finally, every fleet can roid them, except for Xan Fi, Zik Cr and Etd itself. That makes Etd very weak in general.
Here I agree, etd co ain't great. This I think is down to the steal ship. I really want a steal ship for etd to feed into their Fr. Could give the Pedlar T2 fr and make the Vendor a normal or cloaked ship (Etd is a bit lacking cloak atm). Would presumably prefire the Chimera (not difficult with the chim init 9!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
On the defense side of things, I'd suggest adding a Bs with T1 De and T2 Cr to Etd, either Init 1 EMP or Init 7 Norm, primarily to stop Cat De and both Cr fleets. I have a very mild preference for the latter option.
Interesting, will think about it. Almost certain not to be emp... I think stealing Ter bs pods would make this too awesome a team with Ter bs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
And a final point, pretty minor: Behemoth has less than half the ERes of other SKs, getting EMPed at a staggering 900%, compared to 350% for other SKs.
Ops, mistake. Clearly failed to change its emp res when I changed all the others.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
EMP effs in general are much improved. T1 effs look good now. However, T2 is normally significantly lower than T1, and that isn't the case in these stats. That's fine in principle, but in my opinion that means T1 should be a bit lower than usual. Another 5%?
Given how long it takes to fiddle all the emp effs I'll wait on a few more opinions before changing them all again!

Changed the Behemoth, otherwise will wait for others reactions.
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Unread 8 May 2015, 15:55   #40
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Wyvern's firing at Bs is... really weird. It's basically only there to fight itself, which makes Ter more roidswappy (totally a word), but only a little bit. I kind of like the notion of Wyverns as knights in full platemail hitting each other with pillows.
I thought Terr BS firing on BS would be weird too when I first proposed it above. This was however, for the complete opposite reason. I thought terr BS would never land on terr BS because no matter how soft your pillow and how shiny your armour to do so would entail an automatic loss. So I thought it would be the opposite of roidswappy, particularly as Terr players are more likely than the average to play value to the max. Thus I have to admit the pillows were my suggestion.
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Unread 8 May 2015, 16:40   #41
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
My personal preference would be to make it just have one target. Either of these suggestions would have to involve re adding the T2 to the Roach or creating a new ship to target co, otherwise Cat has nothing targeting co which would be just a little bit of a disadvantage!
Pff, barely worth mentioning.

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As mentioned before my view on this is pretty close to packing up and going home before doing this. Does not mean I wont after a bit more pressure though.
In that case, I would much prefer 0-loss EMP Black Widow vs. Bs over 0-loss kill Wyvern vs De.

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Not sure we are on the same page here. In the set I am looking at the Ranger is emp init one T1 fi T2 de, so fires long before the Banshee and the Drake. Sure the Drake being Terran it is hardly awesome against the Drake but it is by no means terrible. The Tycoon firing first was entirely intentional and if Etd fr fired before the Cutter as well it would be firing before everything except Cat! There was an Etd/Xan fr combo pretty similar only a couple of rounds ago that everyone thought was op. I know the de here is a better counter to it than that round but still I dont want to keep beefing fr up.
Uhh, I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that. Disregard.

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Here I agree, etd co ain't great. This I think is down to the steal ship. I really want a steal ship for etd to feed into their Fr. Could give the Pedlar T2 fr and make the Vendor a normal or cloaked ship (Etd is a bit lacking cloak atm). Would presumably prefire the Chimera (not difficult with the chim init 9!)
I like the Vendor as a Steal ship, even if it does hurt the effectiveness of the Co fleet quite a bit, but the Pedlar T2 Fr option seems fine too.

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Given how long it takes to fiddle all the emp effs I'll wait on a few more opinions before changing them all again!
Yeah, it's one of those things to do at the very end. Gotta love EMP!


Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I thought terr BS would never land on terr BS because no matter how soft your pillow and how shiny your armour to do so would entail an automatic loss. So I thought it would be the opposite of roidswappy, particularly as Terr players are more likely than the average to play value to the max. Thus I have to admit the pillows were my suggestion.
Hm, I guess you're right.
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Unread 9 May 2015, 22:16   #42
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Re: booji stats proposals

I think these stats looks really good. In my view there are several viable strats that could play out well.

One mayor thing tho, I totaly agree with mz about the targeting of the DE roid-class ships. Either make them target CO and BS, or remove the DE targeting from Vipers and Wyvern.

I would sugest that you add a t2 on Drakes and Chimeras, and that they target CO and BS respectivly.
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Unread 9 May 2015, 23:16   #43
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Re: booji stats proposals

This stats set was designed to take further M0's idea that you could have DE act as FI/CO as regards ally def that we have this round. The Emp hitting from the class below was to moderate this effect a bit without altering the fundamental. However, the creation of the Wyvern hitting DE badly wounded this idea already, and there seems to be still further pressure to maim it some more, perhaps it should be put out of its misery.
Should we take it that the idea of DE only being able to be hit by FR at ally def eta as done this round is unpopular and should not be repeated? (trying to ignore the strength of the single ship scarab attack fleet as a separate issue)
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Unread 9 May 2015, 23:40   #44
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Re: booji stats proposals

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I would sugest that you add a t2 on Drakes and Chimeras, and that they target CO and BS respectivly.
This seems to misunderstand the set. The idea was that the zero loss ships would be emp because they do not kill and do not deter. It therefore does not matter (much) that the attacking fleet does not target them. Having ter de targeting co would make ter invulnerable to co. At the same time in attack terms there is no need for it, what benefit does it provide to be hitting one emp ship that targets de? I guess it makes half arsed emp def a bit more worrying for the defender, but if emp does not fully emp you then it is worthless anyway.

The T2 for the chimera is a slightly different position as a result of the Wyvern having been added that targets de (note this is a different position from the Drake targeting co as the Wyvern has nothing targeting it from above) so the question is whether there should be a killship that fires back or whether the Wyvern should just target bs not de.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 00:31   #45
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
This seems to misunderstand the set. The idea was that the zero loss ships would be emp because they do not kill and do not deter. It therefore does not matter (much) that the attacking fleet does not target them. Having ter de targeting co would make ter invulnerable to co. At the same time in attack terms there is no need for it, what benefit does it provide to be hitting one emp ship that targets de? I guess it makes half arsed emp def a bit more worrying for the defender, but if emp does not fully emp you then it is worthless anyway.

The T2 for the chimera is a slightly different position as a result of the Wyvern having been added that targets de (note this is a different position from the Drake targeting co as the Wyvern has nothing targeting it from above) so the question is whether there should be a killship that fires back or whether the Wyvern should just target bs not de.
i dislike the idea of zero loss defships in emp. Viper is overly efficient even at t2. And zero loss against both classes it is supposed to stop.
No race has faking option to kill these vipers either. You are giving the race that in my oppinion is the best race, another utterly strong advantage.
Might not matter much in your eyes, but in mine this is redicolous.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 07:35   #46
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Re: booji stats proposals

Zik is utter garbage and the only solo fleets that wont demolish a zik is etd fr and ter de. zik is also itselfs best target so no hope for them rly(unless galleon got a broken effiency then some top players can "play" it).

Xan fi looks awful.. ter and xan got same init kill ships as them so cant land there, cat and etd got emp which prefires so all u got left is zik(but everyone can hit zik so they dont have roids anyway..)
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Unread 10 May 2015, 08:16   #47
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Re: booji stats proposals

The view of xan fi seems a little harsh, most of that def has to be ingal, only the voyager is an ally def ship. Unfortunately I have also had a couple of ppl on irc tell me xan fi is too strong.

Zik usually has this or similar problems unless they are given a lot of normal ships. They can clearly be up armoured as I was keeping zik a/c below their d/c. You come with a lot of criticisms but without any suggested solutions. What would you do to change this?
Edit: one possible thing to do would be to generally decrease the d/c in the set, this would make late firing ships more survivable so making zik better defensively, views? This would make sense in line with a further emp eff drop.

Theodd: if you did not read the relevant post the viper t2 is already on the chopping block. I am however waiting for suggestions for what should replace it in targeting co.

At the moment I am suffering from the problem of a lack of agreement from critics; mz says etd co is too weak, plaguuu xan fi and zik, I personally think ter de is. Anyone want to say cat is to make a full house?
Some consensus please everyone!
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Unread 10 May 2015, 08:47   #48
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Re: booji stats proposals

I agree that Ter De is on the weak side. Removing Wyvern T1 will do a lot to balance that, and will help make Ter Bs less OP at the same time.

I'm not too worried about Xan Fi, because Pegasus is off-class. 1 kill ship with better Init and a couple of EMP ships is par for the course for Xan roiding fleets. Sidenote, Xan only has 1 ship targeting Fr, Cr and Bs, forcing every Xan to build Ghost and Peacekeeper. Adding 1-2 more ships would help adding some variation in there.

Zik Co roids Etd and Cat (sort of), Zik Cr roids Xan and Ter De. The only thing that makes Zik weaker is that their Co teamup is so bad, and even Cat Co with stolen pods can't help, because it only targets classes that can't fire at Co anyway.

As for Cat anti-Co... Voyager Init 1, and Spider as EMP Fi with T1 Co Init 2 or kill at Init 7?
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Unread 10 May 2015, 09:12   #49
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Re: booji stats proposals

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The view of xan fi seems a little harsh, most of that def has to be ingal, only the voyager is an ally def ship. Unfortunately I have also had a couple of ppl on irc tell me xan fi is too strong.
If you do decide that xan fi needs help then surely the obvious target is the bolt thrower downgrade to init 6, help xan by hurting xan, it means that only terr is off limits to xan fi. You would then have a choice, do you use this to also help zik co? or do you reduce the cutter to init 7?
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Unread 10 May 2015, 14:06   #50
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Re: booji stats proposals

pls move the "not really here" ships to BS SK and rearrange order

they are an annoyance

i promise feedback if u do :P
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