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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 01:03   #1
milo
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Israel prison break

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4806714.stm

This is amusing, why even bother with extradition treaties anymore? every nation can just storm whatever prison of whichever territory they please. Infact im surprised they didn't just send in a helicopter strike. I suppose that because the PFLP didn't just send in a suicide bomber and bothered to kill a member of the government they decided to give him special treatment.

Does anyone believe the US/UK didn't collude with the Israelis on this?

btw what the hell is going on with sharon? pull the plug!
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 01:19   #2
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Re: Israel prison break

I thought this thread was going to be about something happy

Israel do as they please. Sadly, these things dont shock me anymore. Israel is a state founded on racism and seperation, so it's no wonder that they do as they please with the palestinians. This is pretty nonshocker compared to the other atrocies that is done down there every day

I don't know what collude means
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 02:45   #3
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Exclamation Re: Israel prison break

Just another day in Hamastan.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 02:47   #4
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by Snurx
I don't know what collude means
conspire
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:15   #5
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Re: Israel prison break

The UK government asked the new Palestinian government for guarantees on the safety of their troops. The Palestinians were not prepared to give any such guarantees (im guessing there was a fair bit of chest thumpin and "You support the evil Zionist regime, we will not give you or promise you anything" , and as such the troops were ordered to pull out.

The Israelis knew they were going to go. Whether through an intricate spying network, or through being tipped off by the UK or US , they knew. And once they were gone, it was open season.

Its not like the Palestinians had anything like the firepower needed to drive off elite Israeli armored units, and as such, they did what they want, when they want, as usual.

Anyone surprised by this?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:20   #6
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
The UK government asked the new Palestinian government for guarantees on the safety of their troops. The Palestinians were not prepared to give any such guarantees (im guessing there was a fair bit of chest thumpin and "You support the evil Zionist regime, we will not give you or promise you anything" , and as such the troops were ordered to pull out.
Or maybe they couldn't guarantee their safety because the Israelis can do what they want, when they want?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:21   #7
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Anyone surprised by this?
No I just hope that all the ****tards who argued against me on my point about extradition and legal sovereignty have the decency to blush.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:30   #8
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Or maybe they couldn't guarantee their safety because the Israelis can do what they want, when they want?
Lets be brutally honest here.

If theres a task force there with UK and US troops, the Israelis are NOT going to attack. They are NOT going to cause casualties on the part of their biggest allies. It is NOT going to happen.

The safety issue was most likely for the american troops getting stoned by Palestinians.

Do I think there was collusion on the part of the US & UK troops to pull out? MOst likely yes, but hey, thats international politics. Some nations get to be the daddy, some get to be the bitch.

Palestine is once again the bitch of the international community. Hamas has made it so.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:36   #9
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
If theres a task force there with UK and US troops, the Israelis are NOT going to attack. They are NOT going to cause casualties on the part of their biggest allies. It is NOT going to happen.
O rly?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:01   #10
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
No I just hope that all the ****tards who argued against me on my point about extradition and legal sovereignty have the decency to blush.
I'm not sure anyone ever denied that the powerful can throw their weight around in a variety of manners (like this). The dispute is whether they should, morally speaking.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:23   #11
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Palestine is once again the bitch of the international community. Hamas has made it so.
Hamas is not the reason Palestine is the bitch. Palestine has been that since the birth of Israel, Hamas is pretty new compared to that.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:32   #12
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Re: Israel prison break

hey guys, we're dealing with the commies not the islamists
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:42   #13
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
btw what the hell is going on with sharon? pull the plug!
And what is the deal with airline food?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:13   #14
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure anyone ever denied that the powerful can throw their weight around in a variety of manners (like this). The dispute is whether they should, morally speaking.
I've never cared about morality.

AlL I did was explain factual truth.

Perhaps you should have responded with "but Yahwe they shouldn't" rather than "but Yahwe they can't".
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:29   #15
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I've never cared about morality.
Well, that is pretty much all I care about in these sorts of debates.
Quote:
Perhaps you should have responded with "but Yahwe they shouldn't" rather than "but Yahwe they can't".
I never said that. The only people who used the term "can't" in the first page of that thread were yourself (saying "you can't discuss beliefs") and Alessio (twice, in relation to other matters).
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:45   #16
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Re: Israel prison break

Israel is seriously awesome

According to the article, the guy they took was believed to have killed the tourism minister. If Britain and the US took a similar hardline stance towards terrorists, the world would probably be a better place. Compare this to the passive, tiptoeing, cackhanded way the British government handled Irish terrorism throughout the 20th century.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:51   #17
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
Hamas is not the reason Palestine is the bitch. Palestine has been that since the birth of Israel, Hamas is pretty new compared to that.
No, youre wrong on that one Snurx. Over the years, Palestine had slowly but surely been fighting its way towards recofnition within the international community. Israel's policy towards it had become considerably less hardline.

Hamas then took power. They refused to speak to Israel. Or negotiate with anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Hamas is very much to blame.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:53   #18
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Quote:
Israel's position on the incident is that it was a case of mistaken identity and was entirely due to error. Israel contends that it was assured by the United States that no U.S. ships were in the area, and that its air and naval forces wrongly identified the Liberty at various stages as either a Russian intelligence ship that was providing information to the Arabs, or as the Egyptian vessel El Quseir.
Friendly Fire.

Youre throwing Smoke and Mirrors in here dude.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:08   #19
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
... Israel's policy towards it had become considerably less hardline.

Hamas then took power. They refused to speak to Israel. Or negotiate with anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Hamas is very much to blame.

Considerably less hardline doesn't make it acceptable. HAMAS refused to recognise the right of israel to exist, it was everyone else that walked away from them, their position isn't dissimilar to sin fein/ira at the begining of the NI peace process
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:17   #20
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Friendly Fire.

Youre throwing Smoke and Mirrors in here dude.
Please read the whole article.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:50   #21
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
No, youre wrong on that one Snurx. Over the years, Palestine had slowly but surely been fighting its way towards recofnition within the international community. Israel's policy towards it had become considerably less hardline.

Hamas then took power. They refused to speak to Israel. Or negotiate with anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Hamas is very much to blame.
Oh, I guess I was wrong then. By less hardline, do you mean like, for instance, the wall? The incereased amount of settlers on the vestbank? More checkpoints? Less financial aid? More roadblocks, demolition of houses, incereased military presence and so on?
I guess the second intifada was started beacause the palestinians was bored

I'm not saying Hamas is cool. But they are at least not corrupt. And negotiation when one side holds all the cards is not really a negotiation, more like extortion.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:54   #22
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Re: Israel prison break

If we send our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
If we leave our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Now, our troops leave some place, however small, and again we have people saying that it was a conspiracy.
Lose-Lose situation.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:56   #23
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If we send our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
If we leave our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Now, our troops leave some place, however small, and again we have people saying that it was a conspiracy.
Lose-Lose situation.
Why not just keep them at home?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:56   #24
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Re: Israel prison break

i think they were civilian monitors
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 20:02   #25
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If we send our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Yes, because invariably your troops impose a will that only serves your own interests

Quote:
If we leave our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Yes, because your troops occupy and enforce a will that only serves your own interests.

Quote:
Now, our troops leave some place, however small, and again we have people saying that it was a conspiracy.
They were civilians anyway.
It was the notiifcation of the pull out to Israel and the immediate action by them right afterward that couldn't be stopped that has people crying foul.
Basically it's leaving and shouting "my back is turned and I'm not there to stop it, do what you want".

Quote:
Lose-Lose situation.
Bollocks. Behave in a decent manner internationally and you'll suddenly find you're regarded better by nearly everyone.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 20:04   #26
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Israel is seriously awesome

According to the article, the guy they took was believed to have killed the tourism minister. If Britain and the US took a similar hardline stance towards terrorists, the world would probably be a better place. Compare this to the passive, tiptoeing, cackhanded way the British government handled Irish terrorism throughout the 20th century.

You really have just become a hideous troll now haven't you.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 20:13   #27
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Israel is seriously awesome

According to the article, the guy they took was believed to have killed the tourism minister. If Britain and the US took a similar hardline stance towards terrorists, the world would probably be a better place. Compare this to the passive, tiptoeing, cackhanded way the British government handled Irish terrorism throughout the 20th century.
IRISH TERRORISM? THEY ALL COME FROM YOUR BLOODY COUNTRY.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 20:19   #28
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Please read the whole article.
I did

The Israelis admitted major failures in identifying the ship. The US admitted that after the initial attack, the instruction to cease fire was misinterpreted and that further skirmishes ensued leading to the boat being torpedoed.

The US did not accept the official explanation. The Israelis had not been advised there was a US spy ship in those waters. A lot of US officials did a bit of chest thumping and said it was a deliberate calculated attack , but that was more so they would be seen as strong, hardline characters within their own poliitical system rather than a strongly held belief that anything they said would make a blind bit of difference.

The massive difference here is that there was a state of war declared, and there were huge military operations going on in around the area, and friendly fire occurred. Failures to identify targets happen, that simply COULD NOT have happened in the case of the prison break.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 20:24   #29
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
I did

The Israelis admitted major failures in identifying the ship. The US admitted that after the initial attack, the instruction to cease fire was misinterpreted and that further skirmishes ensued leading to the boat being torpedoed.

The US did not accept the official explanation. The Israelis had not been advised there was a US spy ship in those waters. A lot of US officials did a bit of chest thumping and said it was a deliberate calculated attack , but that was more so they would be seen as strong, hardline characters within their own poliitical system rather than a strongly held belief that anything they said would make a blind bit of difference.

The massive difference here is that there was a state of war declared, and there were huge military operations going on in around the area, and friendly fire occurred. Failures to identify targets happen, that simply COULD NOT have happened in the case of the prison break.
What the hell did you read the article with, selective reading glasses?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 21:10   #30
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What the hell did you read the article with, selective reading glasses?
I read it with an open mind, not looking for the points that would win me the debate.

Did you?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 21:24   #31
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Israel is seriously awesome
Their current policy will probably lead to their destruction so yeah GG and all that.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 21:31   #32
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Their current policy will probably lead to their destruction so yeah GG and all that.
I cant see that happening. At all. Ever.

Call me a cynic, but the vested interests of their major backers will prevent them ever being overrun. There may be a change of leadership forced upon them by their backers, but no way jose to them being destroyed by any of their enemies.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 22:00   #33
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
I read it with an open mind, not looking for the points that would win me the debate.

Did you?
I've read slightly more on it than a wikipedia article. The rumours didn't spring out of someone's ass.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 22:07   #34
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Call me a cynic, but the vested interests of their major backers will prevent them ever being overrun.
If you believe the Americans will be in a position to defend them for the rest of time then I'd say you were being a bit unrealistic.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 22:10   #35
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If you believe the Americans will be in a position to defend them for the rest of time then I'd say you were being a bit unrealistic.
Perhaps you could be more precise in how you think they will be destroyed.

America can certainly protect them now. They've demonstrated that they're perfectly capable of defending themselves in the past. What exactly are you proposing is going to happen?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 23:32   #36
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Re: Israel prison break

The voting demographic in the united states is going to change, Judaism will no longer be the second largest religious voting block, islam will take its place (assuming theres a fairly homogenous attitude to candidates). No nation on earth has done anything that isn't in its interests, is it really beyond all reason to believe that america's interest isn't intrinsically linked to the existence of israel?

Besides all that israel is the de facto 'jewish state' it'll be interesting to see how it copes with what could turn out to be a jewish minority in that state.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 23:48   #37
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Exclamation Re: Israel prison break

Milo. It's not beacause of the Jew masterplan, votingmass or anything else related to Judaism that America backs Israel. The way I see it, the two main reasons:
1. Power. Keeping a stable ally in those territories is pretty much vital. HOWEVER, this is not the main reason. Stable allies for the US grows on trees down there, it's just that they kill them all the time. And this leads me to the second point,
2. Christian bigots in America. (the largest and most conservative voting group, at least that is into international politics) If you read the Bible, spesifically the part about Armageddon, you will notice that there are a few requirements. One of them is Israel, and the jews presence there. They are there to convert or die, to put it simply. So the main reason (or at least one of the biggest) to why America supports Israel is really antisemitic!
So your point about Judean voters is pretty void
Oh and how exactly are they going to become a jewish minority in Israel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
I cant see that happening. At all. Ever.

Call me a cynic, but the vested interests of their major backers will prevent them ever being overrun. There may be a change of leadership forced upon them by their backers, but no way jose to them being destroyed by any of their enemies.
Like South Africa?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 23:56   #38
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Re: Israel prison break

fair enough, but i don't see it as any sort of conspiracy, as for the jewish/arab birth rate i thought it was a fairly well known trend?


first google results

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...1/124803.shtml

http://www.newzionist.com/2005/06/on...-demographics/
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 02:01   #39
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If you believe the Americans will be in a position to defend them for the rest of time then I'd say you were being a bit unrealistic.
If you think America will abandon them at any point in the future, id say youre misreading the situation entirely.

There may come a point in the future where America has a crisis of its own to deal with and cannot provide fully the current support it brings to Israel, but as of right now, militarily, Israel is in a position to defend itself from any acts of aggression from its neighbours. Theyre the only nuclear power in the region, and no government in its right mind picks a war with someone with Nukes and the bottle to use them.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 02:02   #40
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I've read slightly more on it than a wikipedia article. The rumours didn't spring out of someone's ass.
Where does a rumour start?

I heard a rumour that GW Bush is actually gay and takes it up the ass from Cheney.

But its just a rumour .......
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 02:03   #41
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx

Like South Africa?
Let me see

South Africa , as i stated, reached a point where internally they had a shift of power. They didnt suffer a massive invasion from their neighbours, and the changeover of power was not a long, drawn out war.

My point stands.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 04:07   #42
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Due to The Law of Return, and the increasingly hostile environment towards the Israeli Arabs I don't see the demographic change as such a sure outcome, I'm afraid.

iirc the number of people using the right of return peaked in the early - mid 90s when people from the former SU used the opportunity for a better life, but has declined since. The jews in western europe - n.america seem relatively content, they may care deeply about israel but seemingly not enough to return.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 04:10   #43
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Re: Israel prison break

oh and kura we're not only discussing the rather limited concept of an arab army overrunning israel
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 06:00   #44
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Exclamation Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Theyre the only nuclear power in the region, and no government in its right mind picks a war with someone with Nukes and the bottle to use them.
And yet Egypt and Syria did just that--they attacked Israel in 1973 (Israel had the bomb by the late '60s, possibly even at the time of the Six-Day war but certainly by the time of the Yom Kippur war). One should never count on one's enemies being in their right minds (especially, I think, in the middle east). :/

Also, I do not think Israel will be the only nuclear power in the region for too much longer (and if 'the region' includes Pakistan they already aren't).
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 08:21   #45
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Where does a rumour start?

I heard a rumour that GW Bush is actually gay and takes it up the ass from Cheney.

But its just a rumour .......
Widely believed and widely held and critically analysed and failed to be disproven "rumours" generally have some factual basis.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 10:51   #46
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
And yet Egypt and Syria did just that--they attacked Israel in 1973 (Israel had the bomb by the late '60s, possibly even at the time of the Six-Day war but certainly by the time of the Yom Kippur war). One should never count on one's enemies being in their right minds (especially, I think, in the middle east). :/
Just because they didn't use it doesn't mean they weren't prepared to. Both wars 'turned good' for them, but this could easily not have been the case.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 11:00   #47
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Due to The Law of Return
Milo has already covered this, but it's worth re-emphasising : The demise of the Soviet Union was of course a one-time event and the migration of Jews from the fSU to Israel isn't going to happen again, barring some calamatious events in the United States where the largest Jewish population exists.

There will of course be drips and drab migration from Western Europe (especially if anti-Jewish attacks occur or they generally feel uncomfortable with Europe's growing Muslim population) and the United States (the children of the orthodox and so on) and possibly Latin America (Argentina mainly, due to economic problems) but I doubt it will ever be on the scale of the "Soviet" Jews migration which approached something like a million people.

Simply put, there are no more large scale Jewish populations who want to return to Israel. Which definitely can't be said for the Palestenians.

More generally, both inside Israel (and the occupied territories) and Israel's neighbours the Arab populations have a high birth-rate (I believe at one stage the Gaza Strip had the highest birth-rate in the world, although some have doubted those figures). Almost all of the countries around Israel have a relatively high birth-rate and their populations will grow enormously over the next fifty years if trends remain as they do.

So to summarise : Israel is going to be dealing with keeping down larger and larger Arab populations. Gerrymandering, atrocities, expulsions and the like will help in the short-term but they will not change facts. The cost of occupying / continual war will wear Israel down and eventually they will fall. Of course, for now (and certainly for the next ten to twenty years) they have the United States who stand unopposed in military might.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kura
South Africa , as i stated, reached a point where internally they had a shift of power. They didnt suffer a massive invasion from their neighbours, and the changeover of power was not a long, drawn out war.
Snurx's South Africa analogy is very valid although there are obviously differences (the whites were always a small minority and the black states which surrounded South Africa were all militarily insignificant). South Africa did have an internal shift in policy but this wasn't because the Afrikaaners woke up one day and realised they had been terrible to their black brothers all these years.

Instead, it was because elements inside the National Party (and elsewhere in South Africa's elite) began to consider the costs of apartheid were too high. Compulsory military service for instance was generally disliked - remember this wasn't playing boy scouts in the Alps like many of our European cousins seem to partake - but proper military service where you could be sent to Angola or have to deal with some township rebellion in some of the worst places on Earth. I have an in-law who tried to commit suicide simply to avoid it, for instance.

The black population was growing (and migrating) far quicker than the white population and this was unlikely to change. The ANC (and co) were growing in organisation skill and ability to disrupt/boycott/harrass the authorities (payment strikes, sabotage, etc).

In addition to this, international pariah status (sanctions, boycotts, being barred from sporting events, etc) bears down rather heavily if you're living in an otherwise priviliged lifestyle. Israel is not in such a bad position due to history but it's not like they have a high degree of international support either (let's play count the UN votes on Israel & Palestine shall we?)

But the whites could have continued. They could have, instead of putting Mandela in Robben Island for twenty odd years simply shot him in the head. They could have used their military advantage to crack down much harder on "the terrorists" in the ANC. And if you speak to some white South Africans you will find many people who believe that is precisely what they should have done. Instead they struck a bargain. Negotiated transfer of power and the whites got to keep much of their land / privilige (well, for now).

There is a quote in one of the Discworld books which says something along the lines of "If you are going to kick a troll when he is chained up, don't be around when he is unchained".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kura
There may come a point in the future where America has a crisis of its own to deal with and cannot provide fully the current support it brings to Israel, but as of right now, militarily, Israel is in a position to defend itself from any acts of aggression from its neighbours.
Yes, and no-one is doubting this. However, your original statement (in response to my comment about Israel's destruction) said that you couldn't see this ever happening. Forever is a long time and we'd be foolish to believe that American hegemony will last that long.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 11:11   #48
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
And yet Egypt and Syria did just that--they attacked Israel in 1973 (Israel had the bomb by the late '60s, possibly even at the time of the Six-Day war but certainly by the time of the Yom Kippur war). One should never count on one's enemies being in their right minds (especially, I think, in the middle east). :/

Also, I do not think Israel will be the only nuclear power in the region for too much longer (and if 'the region' includes Pakistan they already aren't).
Mordechai Vannunu was abducted and imprisoned by the Israeli Government in 1986 for an interview he gave to the LA Times in which he announced to the world that Israel had a nuclear arsenal. Whilst it may have been suspected by others, it was not proven or even widely acknowledged until the time this was published.

Vannunu did not even start working for at Dimona, the Israeli nuclear installation, until 1976, so it is highly unlikely that when planning an attack on Israel, Syria or Egypt had any foreknowledge that they were attacking a nuclear state.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 12:08   #49
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Re: Israel prison break

Hmm.. I'm a muslim, an arab and a palestinean, so I think I deserve my saying in this..
(I'm not living in Palestine though, was forceed to immigration).

I don't know how can some of you blame it all on Hamas, how many times did Fath (The ex govermental admistration) tried to have a ceasefire with Isrealians? And yes, it was alawys broken by Israel first. Holding Yaser Arafat in his own office and building is considered a good think on the side of Isreal? Muslims, arabs and palestineans are just deperate of the word peace, espiecially with Isreal. They do whatever they want, and no one seems to be getting in the way. They took 'Ahmad Essadat' from the prison, a co-founder of the Libiration group (Don't know it's name in English really), in the charge of assasinating the tourisim minister 2 years ago, ohh, thank god they remembered to. This move also came after Hamas considered being a part of that Libiration group, just to get more and more support from the people. To say it's Hamas' fault is quite not fair. The Palestinean people were eager to a thought of peace, but not anymore. It's quite annoying, to see any decision almost being made by the UN to the profit of Palestine, get veto-ed by the US. Those who keep saying bla bla bla about justice and democracy, while they seem to not follow it.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 13:51   #50
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You don't apear to know what the **** you are talking about.

"The Palestinian prime minister-designate says Hamas is ready to recognise Israel if it gives the Palestinian people their full rights and a state in lands occupied since 1967, including the West Bank and East Jerusalem."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...CF999C5A7B.htm

Actually Israel has already said it won't negotiate with Hamas or ANY Palestinian government with Hamas as a part of it. Fair enough you might say, except that they had already refused to talk to the previous Palestinian administration, despite that administration sucking Israeli cock. Furthermore with the recent expansion of Israel in to the West Bank and its extension of the wall, openly and provocatively during the months leading up to and during the Palestinian elections, I think we can lay some blame at Israel's doorstep.

Now looking at Israel's policy historically we can see that they have become more hardline, at one stage holding Arafat hostage in his own office, building a massive wall and sabotaging any ceasefires that might have taken place. They have been talking less hardline only because they know that a two state solution is more or less impossible now.

Also I dislike your phrase "Hamas took power" Hamas were elected, they may be nutters but if anything the problem with the last administration was they could not control Hamas and had little legitimacy. Hamas is one of the few oragisations in Palestine who has been looking after the Palestinian people.

So lets have a bit less from you Kura.
Thats a horrifically one sided viewpoint from which to debate T&F.

Youre not telling me that Israel have absoloutely no right to defend themselves by building the wall, bearing in mind the sheer number of palestinian suicide bombings over the last 10 years within Israel?

Youre trying to say that a government which was negotiating with Israel, and doing not too bad for its troubles (see the number of israeli settlements created during Fatah's reign, see the number of Israeli settlements removed during Fatah's reign, see the amount of funding which was allowed into the coffers of the Palestinian Government, which I might add, could not have come into existence without the Israeli's allowing it), couldnt control Hamas, an extremist group with a bodycount which Al Qaeda can only dream of, and that when the terrorists come into power (and lets not say Hamas are politicians. The IRA has a political wing called Sinn Fein, it does not make the IRA any less of a terrorist group, so however you blur the lines, theyre still killer , theyre just now making the transition to 'killers in suits'", and that for this reason, they were sucking Israeli cock and didnt deserve to govern?

They were the closest thing that the Palestinians had to a chance of negotiating what they wanted in the long term. That wont happen under Hamas.

Every nation in the world has a policy of "We do not negotiate with terrorists" , why the hell should Israel be forced to negotiate with them when they refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist without first getting what they want?, Thats not even close to negotiation, thats throwing in something they KNOW the Israeli's cannot give to appease the electorate. Its like the BNP saying "We want complete control of Burnley and the surrounding areas if we are to give up shaving our heads and racially abusing local residents"

I have absoloutely no doubt Israels reactions to incidents are hardline and in some cases, a little over the top, but trust me , you bring that kind of bloodshed to your local neighbourhood, and youd be calling on your government to do something about it other than say "Lets all just calm down a bit and talk".
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And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
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