alliances and cheating

[Salomo]

Times change. I guess thats something us PA-oldtimer have to realise again and again, me most recently when i wanted to report a confessing multi to the HC of my new, now old, alliance in order for him to be kicked. Back in the old days players and alliances alike at least tried to allways keep up the facade of being anti-cheating. In R3 Legion and Fury even used a cheating scandal as excuse to break their relations with RB and squash them, and most people were happy with the fate of that "cheating alliance". In r6 still alliances accused each other of being cheats (LDK bots, etc.) and back then people at least officially cared.

Now, this round, when i pasted the log of the member talking about his multiing first to an officer, member of pa-crew if i interpreted the ops in #planetarion correctly, this officer told me he'd deal with it but refused to help me get at his coords saying that "we" (the alliance) deal with it much more effectively than PA Crew. So next I posted it to HC, who told me he simply doesn't care. So, persistant as i am, i started a thread on this on the private forums, where within moments i had a reply from another HC on the thread joking around that thats not called multiing but having brothers and sisters and that thats completely ok. I unfortunately don't know whether there was at least some oposition to this by the regular members as i quit the alliance at that point, but i assume if two HC don't care the members wont either. (It's all doumented with logs and screenshots ofc if anyone feels the need to not believe this, they are in german though.)

Now this thread is not really about pointing a finger at this alliance, but much rather i would like to see what other alliances positions on cheating are. If this well known alliance, that in the old days would have had to probably worry about its public immage, doesn't care and internally publicaly supports multiing it makes me wonder how many alliances still care enough to at least try to keep a facade of acting against cheats, how many of those would actually keep their facade when the anti-cheating stance is being tested, and whether there are any that will admit openly to be happy about the extra firepower their cheats give them.

So what is your alliances position towards cheats in your alliance? Will you act against cheats at all? will you act against them even before they are closed by PA crew making their firepower through cheating useless anyway? Or will you not mind your members cheating, perhaps even support them to gain that much desired extra firepower?

And if you post that you will act against cheating, which people in your alliance are to be contacted to get a multi removed from your alliance?

[davidb]

im sure most alliances will post a reply that says they are against cheating and protecting cheaters but if they actualy stand by that or not is a different matter

[Salomo]

Aditionally i'm interested at what people consider to be the reasons for this steady shift in alliance politics towards cheating. Perhaps this should be a seperate thread, but i don't want to make two threads on this topic at once, and hope both questions can be discussed together as they are somewhat related.

Imo the underlying reason for alliances affording to "publically" support cheating or at least refusing to act against it can only be a shift in the general attitude of PA-players towards cheating. Cheats have allways been around, we all know that, but in the old days there was enough oposition against them making alliances largely unable to afford publically supporting cheating even if secretly they did support it.

What has caused this change in public acceptance of cheating? Imo one of the main reasons for this is the very poor anti-cheating measures of PA. PA Crew has allways done an extremely poor job of finding cheats and deleting them. Ocasionally there have been deletion sprees where large parts of top galaxies were deleted (close to the end of r7 e.g.), but those were overshadowed by incidents such as the in-protection-resource-trading "scandal" where masses of players who had knowingly cheated were hardly punished at all, many in the end still being better off than non-cheaters despite being caught. Imo this has caused many of those people that truly opposed cheating back in the old days to leave not wanting to play a game that does nothing against cheats. Those that remained have largely grown cynical and accepted cheating in PA as something unchangeable.

This has of course lead to the cheating percentage increasing compared to the percentage of non-cheaters, giving many the "excuse" that everybody cheats, probably again increasing the amount of cheats in the universe.

Another reason imo may be that cheats are no longer allowed to be discussed on AD. Back in the old days alliances at least had to "fear" being flamed on here when they cheated too obviously. Nowadays neither deletion nor flame awaits them, so what is there to stop them from supporting their members cheating?

[Salomo]

Originally posted by davidb
im sure most alliances will post a reply that says they are against cheating and protecting cheaters but if they actualy stand by that or not is a different matter

that is why i have asked for contact people in the alliances to report cheats to. Loads of cheaters and their alliances are known these days, so in many cases it wont be too difficult to verify whether the alliances will actually stick by what they claim

[Gerbie]

Nick Gerbie, channel #fryingdutchmen, alliance TFD.
Test me with sufficient proof of multi's and I'll kick them.

Gerbie, in controll of the Kick button.

[gzambo]

if u get any evidence concerning a rock member send it to me by board pm and ill make sure the appropiate action is taken
(kicked from alliance and reported to spinner and co.)

[Kal]

the thing to do imo is if your allaince has multis is to find em, reprot em, and whiel pa crew is busy sitting on its arse doing nothing roid em and kill em and kick them form your alliance. Then hopefully by then pacrew will close them.

[Razorback]

Anytime you can contact an Eclipse hc if you feel one of our members is a cheater, data will be checked within 24 h, normally if there is only a slight doubt of guilt the hc member will report it to creators if you havent done yourself. Furthermore members under cheating accusation are if the case is unsure suspended and if evidence is brought up which pa crew values not as valid enough to close the planet normally the member is kicked for cheating from eclipse.

During the last round eclipse dealt with about 15 cheats some of them had even top10 or 20 planets. Zhil himself is a hatred multihunter. I guess this is enough towards this topic about eclipse.

[K-W]

The anti-cheating facade of earlier rounds was marked by lots of cheating. I actually think alliances now are harder on cheating. At least some of them.

[Al_zz]

Some alliances still use the:
If closed/deleted by creators we'll kick him (often taking the guy back next round still).
guideline. I heard sevral people claiming "it is not cheating if you are not caught" even this round still. People with that mentality, wheather HC of an alliance or not, should preferbly not be in any game cause they have no understanding of what a game really is.

This is one of the reasons why it is good to get a list of people being deleted for cheating including their nick and the alliancename of the cheater as is being discussed on PD. I hope this info will be available next round.

hAl

[LordNieminen]

hmm.. u find me alliance what's bc/hc doesn't got scanner planet...

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by LordNieminen
hmm.. u find me alliance what's bc/hc doesn't got scanner planet...

I haven't got one

[Gerbie]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
I haven't got one

me neither
I have to do my own.

[xtothez]

Originally posted by LordNieminen
hmm.. u find me alliance what's bc/hc doesn't got scanner planet...

I have one

Guess that means my multi account must be my main high-scoring one then...

[Unf_Slasher]

concerning contact: For Fang pm me on irc, or here on board, if you got sufficient proof we will kick him.

Concerning scan planets: no i do not have a scan planet i do all scanning for open raids from my real acc, which can be seen clearly in my score (try keeping up a 1:5 ratio with 700 roids and an average of 200 scans a day.....)

[K-W]

Originally posted by Al_zz
Some alliances still use the:
If closed/deleted by creators we'll kick him (often taking the guy back next round still).
guideline. I heard sevral people claiming "it is not cheating if you are not caught" even this round still. People with that mentality, wheather HC of an alliance or not, should preferbly not be in any game cause they have no understanding of what a game really is.
hAl

One could argue that the person who doesnt understand that in a game rules are bent and broken sometimes and its doesnt constitute a breech of morals is the one who has no understanding of what a game really is.

/devils advocate

I think ultimately cheating should be an issue between players and pa team, not alliances, but as long as the situation remains this bad cheating wise, we have to do what we can.

IT was pretty hard to believe anything concerning cheating, especially with the Fury trolling squad(Cryptic mainly) that repeated for 3 or 4 rounds how the enemy's were cheating(especially in losing rounds) .

If they actually had went to the hc directly with proofs without posting any BS on the boards(which was never the case, you always had a few LDK CHEATING SCUM!! on AD) OR just made one thread at the end of the month, long, well written or whatever, then it might have had an effect.

I was login sharing in r6 sometimes with xeta, but the amount of cheating that I saw with FLVT in r7 was just... unbelievable.

Even peoples like Games, DJ, I must have logged in their account 3-4 times a day to send defense and attacks to FLVT members for like a month(we all got closed then, first time I got caught), yes, I was stupid to do it but I have difficulty to say no, and if I hadn't done it - someonelse would have.

The point is:

You can get support on your side by trolling the boards(lo Fury) with half-arsed cheating proofs; or get something REALLY done against the cheaters if you do like I said above.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Gunn3r-_-
IT was pretty hard to believe anything concerning cheating, especially with the Fury trolling squad(Cryptic mainly) that repeated for 3 or 4 rounds how the enemy's were cheating(especially in losing rounds) .

If they actually had went to the hc directly with proofs without posting any BS on the boards(which was never the case, you always had a few LDK CHEATING SCUM!! on AD) OR just made one thread at the end of the month, long, well written or whatever, then it might have had an effect.

I was login sharing in r6 sometimes with xeta, but the amount of cheating that I saw with FLVT in r7 was just... unbelievable.

Even peoples like Games, DJ, I must have logged in their account 3-4 times a day to send defense and attacks to FLVT members for like a month(we all got closed then, first time I got caught), yes, I was stupid to do it but I have difficulty to say no, and if I hadn't done it - someonelse would have.

The point is:

You can get support on your side by trolling the boards(lo Fury) with half-arsed cheating proofs; or get something REALLY done against the cheaters if you do like I said above.

Your point may be that, but all youve proven is that you are biased. Fury never denied having cheaters. But if watched rd 7 and came out with the opinion that fury were huge cheaters you had very selective vision. But it is clear in the tone of your post that that is still the case.

Dont try to act like you are objective. I didnt ever see a Fury gal do what I saw ldk gals do, and that very well could have been because I wasnt looking. But no one has yet shown any indication that it was the case.

Originally posted by Gunn3r-_-
Fury always denied having cheaters

Thank you K-W, I just saw it in my post.

You opened my eyes.

[Salomo]

so so far we only have rock, tfd, eclipse and fang at least trying to keep the facade (since it has not been tested yet only the facade part can be judged yet ), or did i miss anyone?




btw, the first person that knows at who's post i really had to smile gets a cookie ;-)

[Sonnenbomber]

add Hippler to your list, Salomo!

[Knight Theamion]

I think LDK's stance on this is

'It's only cheating if you get caught, and only non-LDK people get caught, we have the stories of Grimm and Anderson to defend ourselves with.'

[Iceaxe]

Originally posted by Salomo
so so far we only have rock, tfd, eclipse and fang at least trying to keep the facade (since it has not been tested yet only the facade part can be judged yet ), or did i miss anyone?

Well I know of multiple people who were kicked from Eclipse for cheating so its not a facade on our part.

Edit: When I say multiple I don't mean we had lots of cheaters I just mean its more then one guy as an example.

[Chaos]

why bother posting a thread about promising to kick cheaters, when all you end up doing, is looking like your lieing through your teeth, while you all are laughing at the feeble attempts at "honor"

99% of all alliances arn't going to their members for account sharing. they will just look the other way.

I've done it my self a few times.. I'm not going to drag a friend through dirt. and kick him out. just cuz he launches his friends fleet cuz he couldn't make the LT.

but I would and have told them to keep it to them self. and please don't tell me ever about it again.

BUT.. if I found someone directly multing. having more than one planet. then I would tell him to delete all but one planet. else I would kick him.

farming? the same.. would order them to stop. else they would be kicked. if I didn't belive 100% they had stopped and wouldn't do it again.. then I would kick them.

Account Swapping?? lol. I don't consider that cheating. and I wouldn't kick anybody for it.

any cheating worse or as bad as direct multing. I would kick on sight.

now.. more honest respons than this you can't get.

--
now this isn't official NoS policy.. just how I do things.
I'll let Dingo decide official policy's. but it'll prob be something like the other alliance HC's posts.

[Gerbie]

Well I only talked about multi's in my post with reason. We forbid and try to discourage any kind of cheating. But not every incident will result in a kick, depending on the nature of the incident. Add the fake account information to the list of offences... If you get away with it and no other players get hurt, why would I bother as long as you are not a multi?

[Salomo]

Originally posted by Sonnenbomber
add Hippler to your list, Salomo!

foad, i allready tested your willingness to delete multies... if i could be assed i'd post the screenshot from the forum, but i can't

you = multi scum, get out of my thread

[King]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
I haven't got one

I haven't got one either, there are these things called scans that MY planet can build WOW i use those.

[Zeus]

Its even more scarey that a memeber off pacrew said "well handle it in alliance" rather than doing what he was suppose to do, get the evidence himself from you or tell you where to send it, so a multihunter can deal with it in an imparcial way.

(That is, if your sure they are pateam and that this person actually said that)

IF what you say is true, then this either means the pateam member doesnt have confidence the multihunters will do there job. The pateam member disregarded the rules of action and allowed his own opinions influence his decision in faviour of the individual the claim was put against or his alliance.

I cant see a memeber of pateam doing that tbh as it would/could result in that pateam member being requested to leave pateam as a decision such as cheating lays only with the multihunter not anyone else in pateam.

I do hope your are wrong in your claims.

[Cryptic]

Originally posted by Gunn3r-_-
IT was pretty hard to believe anything concerning cheating, especially with the Fury trolling squad(Cryptic mainly) that repeated for 3 or 4 rounds how the enemy's were cheating(especially in losing rounds) .

You can get support on your side by trolling the boards(lo Fury) with half-arsed cheating proofs; or get something REALLY done against the cheaters if you do like I said above.

PROPAGANDA

....... was so much fun

and winding up the little cretins kept me amused for months.
I was often telling the truth or half-truths and hiding stuff within that.

The aims:

-wind up the enemy
-cause political problems
-break morale
-push the focus and pressure onto the enemy
-make many of the enemy look like prats while only risking my own rep ... leaving Sid clean

for all those that know the truth or know better - there are 100's that don't. If you repeat things often enough mixed with truths and agreed facts it sticks...... its a side game that I had a great deal of fun with.
It was a development with PA that many either took along time to understand or didn't at all ie the power of the politic.

find me the name of player thats not cheated at pa in absolutely any way .......... and I'll call you a liar

[jornx]

if you find any members of RYB cheating we will take the appropiate actions.

probably Chax.. but hell I don't know.

and yes, I am perfectly aware it was propagandas.

The only thing I find amusing is that over 75% of pa have fallen over your(fury) propagandas, round after round

[nuc]

Originally posted by Chaos
99% of all alliances arn't going to their members for account sharing. they will just look the other way.

True. Account sharers should be reported and kicked. Preferrably kill some of their fleets so some random newly starting players could roid him over time.

BUT.. if I found someone directly multing. having more than one planet. then I would tell him to delete all but one planet. else I would kick him.

They should be definetely reported and kicked right away. No questions, no options, no apologies. Accepting them in next round is pretty questionable too.

farming? the same.. would order them to stop. else they would be kicked. if I didn't belive 100% they had stopped and wouldn't do it again.. then I would kick them.

They should be reported and kicked like any other cheats. They show their morale already.

[Account Swapping?? lol. I don't consider that cheating. and I wouldn't kick anybody for it.

This equals often to cheating that starts even before the ticks start. Definetely cheating, definetely not acceptable. Only accept legally started accounts played by the original creator of the account to your alliance. That is the only way to play by the rules. I can not really understand how someone may miss this fact. --> report, kick, roid.

I didnt mean to attack the writer in any way, and cheers to the open response to the questions asked in the thread. I just want to point out that the rules are clear and if there is a will, it is not really difficult to obey them.

I agree that the alliances should not have to be the policemen of the game to hunt or punish the cheaters. Anyway the alliances should also not claim they do it if they do not.

-nuc

[K-W]

Originally posted by Gunn3r-_-
probably Chax.. but hell I don't know.

and yes, I am perfectly aware it was propagandas.

The only thing I find amusing is that over 75% of pa have fallen over your(fury) propagandas, round after round

Fury got owned in propaganda an aweful lot. Its hard to sneak up on someone when your the biggest kid on the block.

Fury could spin as much as it wanted, in the end people didnt want to trust the alliance that roided them.

[cypher]

Originally posted by Knight Theamion
I think LDK's stance on this is

'It's only cheating if you get caught, and only non-LDK people get caught, we have the stories of Grimm and Anderson to defend ourselves with.'

funny... one day he tries to beg to join ldk he gets refused.... then he begs to join eclipse and ofc gets in and he slags off ldk \o/
surprise surprise

[djcomplex]

Originally posted by Knight Theamion
Bullsh*t

are you still bitter about your application being turned down?

[Jackal2112]

why dont all of you just fk off and play the game instead of whining about cheating

this is boring

[Salomo]

Originally posted by Zeus
Its even more scarey that a memeber off pacrew said "well handle it in alliance" rather than doing what he was suppose to do, get the evidence himself from you or tell you where to send it, so a multihunter can deal with it in an imparcial way.

(That is, if your sure they are pateam and that this person actually said that)

IF what you say is true, then this either means the pateam member doesnt have confidence the multihunters will do there job. The pateam member disregarded the rules of action and allowed his own opinions influence his decision in faviour of the individual the claim was put against or his alliance.

I cant see a memeber of pateam doing that tbh as it would/could result in that pateam member being requested to leave pateam as a decision such as cheating lays only with the multihunter not anyone else in pateam.

I do hope your are wrong in your claims.

Hmmm... It is definetly not the way it should be in a perfect world, but why should PA-team be more blind than the rest of PA? Everybody has seen over the past rounds that hardly anything is done against cheats and multies by PA-team, why should pa-team then not also face reality?


On the other hand, after discussing the issue with the pa-team member and rereading the logs i should probably add some things which the person asked me to clarify:

- The person said he did not have access to the coords himself, which at that point i doubted, instead interpreting this more negatively in the light of what the 2 HC said about multies. Regarding the event with a little distance it actually is rather likely that the arbiter only tells the BC/officer whether a certain planet is friendly. On the other I know that the arbiter had also been fed with aditional information, such as alliances of people, races, nicks, etc. Whether this officer had access to those more sophisticated parts of arbiter i do not know, but by now consider it quite possible that he actually didn't.

- The "we" in "we do more against multies" could theoretically also refer to pa-team, meaning, "we, the pa-team, do more against multies than you think" instead of "we, tot, do more against multis than PA-team". It is one of the deficits of language that such different things can be meant with the same words. I understood it as "we, tot, do more against multis than PA-team" since I would have pjhrased a sentence to imply the other meaning differently, however, gramatically and logically the other meaning would work as well. I guess only the person himself will know what his sentence was really supposed to mean :-/

- My atatement that "two HC and a (PA crew) officer don't care" needs to be corrected. The PA-team officer did indeed spend 10 minutes dealing with the problem in PM with me, speaking 8 lines. Aditionally he in no way stated that he did not care but instead offered me that i could also report the multi to him instead of HC when i asked him about other ways to contact HC besides irc, as no HC ever seemed to show up on IRC. Hence i have corrected the sentence.

[langemann]

As HC of the allmighty Trøndera-alliance, I announce that we will not tolerate cheating in our ranks. HaNzI gave his planet away, so we forced him to leave. We are hoping to get evidence against TheVoid, so we get rid of him soon too. Hope that all other alliances will try to get rid of the cheaters!

[Flip]

rawr.
Cheating is dumb mmkay? Don't do it. mmmkay?
If you want to cheat, get a single player game and cheat vs the computer. That way the only person who's getting his game ruined is YOU the cheat0r!!!!
Cheating against other people is proof of a very very depraved soul!

To reply to the original point of this thread
if you find cheaters in our alliance (Vision)
You can contact Legator, and trust me, the cheat0r will be kicked, reported and flayed.

I FKING hate cheaters.

[Spearhead]

I got roided today by a TOP20 LDK planet and 5 off his escorts...they only stayed one tick...and oh deary me all his escorts and himself recalled within 5 mins...as i hurt him (th big ****er) too much...all have been reported...i'm sick and tired of these cheats claiming victory when all they do is send out 5-10 planets at one person and collect roids...thinking i had to make lots of effort to get those roids fair and square makes me sick :| this game cant go more ****ty then this, ah well ill get you you asshole!! i have REAL friends! and i dont care that you are LDK or anything else you my friend will see a ot more of me soon enough...tbh it's very demoralizing seeing those big 1337 planets cheat and get away with it '/me thinks of making himself some escort planets too' as it seems the way to success and easy roidage

[Flip]

Don't lower yourself to their level m8.. it's not worth it.
They may be winning the game..but I honestly don't see how anyone can take pride in winning by taking unfair advantages (the politically correct way of saying cheating)

Sid is a farmboy and Cryptic shares accounts! Legion use hax0ring to get people's alliance password, and Virus are all nerds!

what round is this?

[Spearhead]

its R9.5, return of the LDK clones

[Flip]

Almost sounds like the title of a bad movie...

[Zh|l]

Episode II: Attack of the LDK

heh

[hAl]

Originally posted by Jackal2112
why dont all of you just fk off and play the game instead of whining about cheating

this is boring

Half the incomings I defended against was escorts. The cheating is the game nowadays. Sad but true.

hAl

[LordNieminen]

hehe, if u want to talk about cheating, ask seraphims top player (looks at planetarion in top10) and ask about he's escorts, when that high ranked player doesn't get caught of cheating u can't hope to catch any real abusers, like stated before.. u can close escorts if they'r used via anonymizers or wtf is that word.. but u can't close "main" account because ppl use real ip for it.

Anyways just an example how this game works atm for this topic too.

[hAl]

Originally posted by LordNieminen
hehe, if u want to talk about cheating, ask seraphims top player (looks at planetarion in top10) and ask about he's escorts, when that high ranked player doesn't get caught of cheating u can't hope to catch any real abusers, like stated before.. u can close escorts if they'r used via anonymizers or wtf is that word.. but u can't close "main" account because ppl use real ip for it.

Anyways just an example how this game works atm for this topic too.

it is enough to connect the escort planet to the main account I think. So if the escort launch coordinated attacks with a planet more than once it is obvious they are cooperating. Hence close the big account.

hAl

[Scorpio]

Originally posted by hAl
it is enough to connect the escort planet to the main account I think. So if the escort launch coordinated attacks with a planet more than once it is obvious they are cooperating. Hence close the big account.

hAl

Escorts aren't against the rules. Simple.
I could ask my brother to escort me every day, I don't. Coz I don't care about it. But if I did, it's still a valid legal strategy.

[K03N]

Originally posted by Scorpio
Escorts aren't against the rules. Simple.
I could ask my brother to escort me every day, I don't. Coz I don't care about it. But if I did, it's still a valid legal strategy.

*cough* you don't need your brother to escort you *cough*




it's just not cricket dennis