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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 13:06   #1
GavGull
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Post Roll on the PA Comedy of Errors

Well this morning was an utter joke.

I wake up at just gone 9am to check (albeit late) how my first attack has gone. It takes 20 or so minutes for the pages to be stabilised (I'm **** at computer jargon, so feel free to mark me down for it), and I discover I've got ETA 5 hostiles. 20 valuable minutes lost, I nonetheless battle on in alliance/para/cluster/friend channels to get the defence I need, and with the help of fantastic DCing I got a good deal of ETA 6 friendlies, with ETA 5s sending next tick (I'm covered for the second tick - it was mutually decided first tick coverage wasn't a possibility).

Then came the tick that never was. Myself, the DC and the gathered defence are waiting on the team to get PA back up again. Soon after word gets to us that the ticker will be stopped for an hour while the problems are sorted - it's a test of patience but at this stage one that can be endured. I need to login this tick to get the defence sorted for good and to pull my attacking fleet (tick 3 = massacre time) but as I've been granted what is essentially a spare hour I decide to use it to get a bath, dress and generally prepare myself for the day ahead.

I come back twenty minutes before the proposed tick, only to find that the tick delay didn't happen (!). So as a consequence I've had to abandon the defence and my attack fleet (one of two) has been blasted back to the Stone Age.

When I started playing way back in round 1, I couldn't understand criticism like this. Back then, to me PA were giving their all to provide a free service and I'd not move an inch toward accepting their fault. I think what many people fail to appreciate, as I did then, is the level of commitment afforded by ordinary players to play this game competetively. For over 3 years these players have been ignored, abused and generally shat upon by the apathy and lack of understanding of both PA support members and the "middle-society" of the game. Well, smart money's on them suffering at the behest of their own temperament, and maybe there's bitter solace in that.

As for me, I've no intention to spend more of my time supporting a game that not only fails in delivery but also in capacity to learn from its own mistakes (memories of round 3 certainly inspire retrospective deja vu).

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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 13:39   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by idimmu
3 years
10 rounds

And you would have thought someone would have read up on load balancing?

Wouldn't you?
They'd have to learn to read first.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 15:18   #3
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I just thought you'd be used to this by now.
Sry bout the losses Gav
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 15:20   #4
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Im gonna lose a whole bunch of roids over this one :/
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 15:27   #5
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It's jolt's fault, they're in charge of the servers.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 16:01   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's jolt's fault, they're in charge of the servers.
Wrong.

It's Spinner's fault who let #planetarion spammed by the message the ticker will definatly stop, and then didn't manage to actually stop it (I personally don't see why this is so difficult for them).
I luckily didn't loose something today because of this, my target on which I landed in that tick had no defence. But by then I did not get me a news scan of it yet because i thought I would still have 1 whole hour time. My fleet could have been just as wasted as GavGull's fleet because of Spinner's incompetence if my target had defence...
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 16:08   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by idimmu
3 years
10 rounds

And you would have thought someone would have read up on load balancing?

Wouldn't you?
It cannot feasibly be done with the current set up.

As for this mornings 'incident', I was the one who WOKE Spinner up to get it fixed, got him online, brought him up to speed and let him get on working out what was going on.

Now, he TRIED to stop the ticker, but the shear load on teh servers was stupidly high (10+ mins to stop apache alone) Not sure exactly why, but it was...

Once the ticker starts... there isn't a lot that can be done to stop it, and as spinner said in his announcement, no chance of a rollback - fudge is the practiced one at that, and he's away today.

Don't forget - at 5S AS, we had a 8 servers powering the game alone... here we've got 3 (jpaweb01, speed and the db box) so load is bound to be higher per machine.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 18:38   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
Excuses...
Mit are you aiming for an creators post ?
I find those excuses highly amusing considering we PAY (and not really small money) for how many rounds now ? 5 ? and still have no servers who seem to work properly. And as an experienced online gamer i can say i have seen NO other game which is close to p2p or such a high memberbase, having such a bad and incompetent customers support area like pa.

Its no surprise that pa loses every round a good bunch of players who just cant be bothered to stick with this **** and who ask themself why they play and bother to login. Seeing the "xy of xy" planets werent still removed i know a good bunch of ppl who just quitted because they couldnt be bothered to play in 4 ppl galaxys.
Same goes with Multihunting and Cheaterclosing.
Anyone who still believes that every major alliance loses 20% of its total membercount by resigning and pa is still able to grow by 200% on 300% of its r9 size is a fool. Counting all big alliances from last round together and ofc also many of the smaller ones where are those 5-8k new player ??

As Gav said, pa should maybe learn from its mistakes before it dares to take other ppls money. Because under the line, thats what they get paid for.

P.S. if you cant do a tickstop because the workload is too high, technically a rollback for 1 tick is also possible during the downtime, so noone would see a difference.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 18:49   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
It cannot feasibly be done with the current set up.
i guess this has to do with persistent database connections and your fastcgi thing, but if you can't get that to work .. .hmmm
Quote:

As for this mornings 'incident', I was the one who WOKE Spinner up to get it fixed, got him online, brought him up to speed and let him get on working out what was going on.

Now, he TRIED to stop the ticker, but the shear load on teh servers was stupidly high (10+ mins to stop apache alone) Not sure exactly why, but it was...
well, how about doing the more important thing first and stopping the ticker before you stop apache ? (or change the priority of apache first)
Quote:

Once the ticker starts... there isn't a lot that can be done to stop it, and as spinner said in his announcement, no chance of a rollback - fudge is the practiced one at that, and he's away today.

Don't forget - at 5S AS, we had a 8 servers powering the game alone... here we've got 3 (jpaweb01, speed and the db box) so load is bound to be higher per machine.
errm, 8 servers -> 180k planets
now: 3 servers-> 12k planets
so you would need 40 servers to run the current game ? did it really change SO much ?
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 19:02   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaos
i guess this has to do with persistent database connections and your fastcgi thing, but if you can't get that to work .. .hmmm

well, how about doing the more important thing first and stopping the ticker before you stop apache ? (or change the priority of apache first)

errm, 8 servers -> 180k planets
now: 3 servers-> 12k planets
so you would need 40 servers to run the current game ? did it really change SO much ?
in r4 planetarion was hosted by cello...

8 servers only ever served r6,r7 and r8..
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 19:04   #11
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did u have a nice bath tho?
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 19:11   #12
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 19:16   #13
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well said gavgull
lets hope they take notice eh?
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 19:31   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
You PAY for a FREE round, now theres a good one. Don't forget that.
One has to wonder where all the money went, eh? It's not like all rounds have been free...
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 19:54   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
One has to wonder where all the money went, eh? It's not like all rounds have been free...
Think about it - moving from chello to self hosted - paying for office / new servers / bandwidth / staff (none cheap)

now at jolt - having to pay for new servers / bandwidth / staff again.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 20:00   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
Think about it - moving from chello to self hosted - paying for office / new servers / bandwidth / staff (none cheap)

now at jolt - having to pay for new servers / bandwidth / staff again.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

pure comedy

you know about economics ?
how many employees has pa ever had ? 5 ? an office can be in the basement of a private house for a small webcompany, the 4-8 servers (which were only borrowed not bought) could be stored in a room equal to 20 m^2 without problems. The line was the only exspensive thing to pay for and you and i both know they dont cost the world with that transfer rate.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 21:45   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
You PAY for a FREE round, now theres a good one. Don't forget that.
Even in a free round we can at least expect them keep their promises (i.e. stopping the ticker).

And it shouldn't be a hard thing to stop the ticker when PA is not accessable (if you have properly prepared for such a situation, which we should actually expect after 3 years experience! ). It's simply a sign of incompetence that they didn't manage that.

Last edited by SPQR; 7 Jun 2003 at 21:52.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 22:20   #18
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I love the "we cant rollback because the guy who knows how to do that isnt around"

Its good to know that the lucky people who get hurt by server problems when fudge is around get different service than those who get them when hes not.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 23:03   #19
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I find myself agreeing with Germania.

There must be something wrong.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 23:25   #20
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I totally agree with Germania.

And Mit, don't come with the excuse "This is just a free round, so don't complain".

In Round 4 I also couldn't understand the people whining about the crappy service. The game was free and the playerbase was huge. But by now the playerbase is only like <4% of what it was in that time.
This round also has been made free to regain new players, who will also pay for R10. I don't see how this can be accomplished with a crap service like this.
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Unread 7 Jun 2003, 23:26   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
It cannot feasibly be done with the current set up.

As for this mornings 'incident', I was the one who WOKE Spinner up to get it fixed, got him online, brought him up to speed and let him get on working out what was going on.

Now, he TRIED to stop the ticker, but the shear load on teh servers was stupidly high (10+ mins to stop apache alone) Not sure exactly why, but it was...

Once the ticker starts... there isn't a lot that can be done to stop it, and as spinner said in his announcement, no chance of a rollback - fudge is the practiced one at that, and he's away today.

Don't forget - at 5S AS, we had a 8 servers powering the game alone... here we've got 3 (jpaweb01, speed and the db box) so load is bound to be higher per machine.
"Yes sir, no sir, let me kiss your boot sir." That is the best way to approach customer service. "Don't blame me, I did all this, now bow down and worship me". That is NOT the best way to approach customer service. Now, as for the problems with the servers, you knew the problems were there, wtf did you say ticker would be stopped if it couldn't be? That capability should be known by now, and more to the point, WHY WAS I TOLD THE TICKER HAD BEEN STOPPED?

Sorry mr Spinner, but I am coming your way again with a PM, and I can't guarantee I will be as friendly as I was last time.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 02:01   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
You PAY for a FREE round, now theres a good one. Don't forget that.
i wonder how many times this round we will hear "your not paying for it so how can u moan"

ive actually worked in the pateam and u guys are pretty cluded up but jeez spinner buddy LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES there is NO excuse for things fking up now except bad management u have a good game now just hire some1 to control it all
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 14:36   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
You PAY for a FREE round, now theres a good one. Don't forget that.
This is NOT a FREE round - it is the second half of a round that I have paid for. Don't forget that.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 14:49   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArcChas
This is NOT a FREE round - it is the second half of a round that I have paid for. Don't forget that.
I think we have a winner here.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 15:22   #25
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I think we don't
User Agreement and all...
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 15:27   #26
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 15:38   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by SYMM
I think we don't
User Agreement and all...
Well yes, according to the user agreement they can mail me poisen and then say they added it to the user agreement. I think is point is based on the actua situation, not our legal ramifications. PA team shouldnt be using loopholes to screw customers. Its bad policy.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 15:59   #28
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Its nice to see how Mit says that we shouldnt complain cuz the round is free. But ppl put time in their account, so they had a nice ranking. And cause of an error they lose a lot of their fleet, score or roids.

Even if its a free round, stuff like this shouldnt happen.
And not to have a rollback cuz fudge isnt around is kinda amusing to hear.
Gives me a lot of trust to pay for round 10.
Can you guys ensure me then that fudge will be around in case pa goes down and it still ticks?
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 16:05   #29
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It's nice to see things haven't changed (on both fronts). This is all so much more amusing to read while being planetless.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 16:16   #30
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we'll just have to get used to needing 15 minutes to load a page .

edit: There's something I can't understand:
I can't load any pages the first 15 minutes of every hour (I get white screens), and in minute 16 the pages are loaded as normal, not even a little slow. Do lots of people suddenly stop loading pages after 15 minutes or sumthing?
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 16:28   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArcChas
This is NOT a FREE round - it is the second half of a round that I have paid for. Don't forget that.
No. The round 9 that you payed for has ended, and a new, free round has been started.

Having said that, events such as happened should not occur whether a round has been paid for or not. While having no physical access to the servers certainly is a hindrance, things like stopping the ticker should not be a problem.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 16:47   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
It's nice to see things haven't changed (on both fronts). This is all so much more amusing to read while being planetless.
At first I thought you wrote pantsless.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 17:55   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
No. The round 9 that you payed for has ended, and a new, free round has been started.
You say that NOW - I clearly remember the "communications" regarding stopping the last round EARLY (i.e. before it had finished) and starting again.

Curiously, the portal doesn't hold the history of announcements from that period.

Bottom line - I had half of my last round taken from me and replaced with this "free" round? Yeah - right!
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 18:43   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArcChas
Bottom line - I had half of my last round taken from me and replaced with this "free" round? Yeah - right!
Planetarion does not have a fixed round length. Last round was stopped because there was a winner. The round had been played, and the top galaxies had been decided. So nothing was taken from you, the round that you payed for was played and finished.

With Round 10 a while off, there was the choice between letting the round run into eventual boredom, causing more players to leave, or to start a new and shorter round which could attract new players. And they made the right choice.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 19:44   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
Planetarion does not have a fixed round length. Last round was stopped because there was a winner. The round had been played, and the top galaxies had been decided. So nothing was taken from you, the round that you payed for was played and finished.

With Round 10 a while off, there was the choice between letting the round run into eventual boredom, causing more players to leave, or to start a new and shorter round which could attract new players. And they made the right choice.
And you think these occurences are a good way of keping people and getting new ones? If anything that means more effort should have been put in to make it run smoothly, as that would be the best way to attract new players. R9.5 is a great thing to be happening, BUT having it run smoothly would be so much more beneficial.

But my main point anyway was to do with the types of response from PA team officials of effectively "Shut up and leave us alone, we tried". De ja vu.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 20:39   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bashar
And you think these occurences are a good way of keping people and getting new ones?
If you'd have taken the time to read my replies, you'll notice I said that these occurrences should not happen under any circumstance.
Quote:
If anything that means more effort should have been put in to make it run smoothly, as that would be the best way to attract new players.
I concur. However, that would require Jolt to hire staff to monitor PA 24/7, as Fudge and Spinner are focussing on R10, and have no physical access to the server to boot (pun not intended).
Quote:
But my main point anyway was to do with the types of response from PA team officials of effectively "Shut up and leave us alone, we tried". De ja vu.
I have no problem with complaints if they are founded. In this case, I completely agree that the handling of the situation was far less than ideal, and things like this should not happen, whether a round is free or not.

If you were referring to my last post - I was reacting to the statement that this round of PA is somehow a paid round rather than a free one. Which is not the case.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 22:34   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
Planetarion does not have a fixed round length. Last round was stopped because there was a winner. The round had been played, and the top galaxies had been decided. So nothing was taken from you, the round that you payed for was played and finished.

With Round 10 a while off, there was the choice between letting the round run into eventual boredom, causing more players to leave, or to start a new and shorter round which could attract new players. And they made the right choice.
Say what you will - quote the rules as much as you like (those are not in dispute). That will not alter what was said at the time nor will it affect the fact that I am right.

I am not asking for any changes, any recompense, any special treatment. I am merely asking for people to recognise the truth.

[edit] Just before you get tempted to call me a fool (or a liar) again - let me remind you that the word "restart" featured prominently in those missing announcements. (You cannot restart a new round).
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 22:54   #38
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At first I thought you wrote pantsless.
Damn you... I nearly just coughed up some bits of chips I was eating.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 22:56   #39
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It's pointless blaming the creators for a server problem when all the server issues are Jolt issues.

PA Team would have more servers if they had the chance, so whining to the creators is hardly going to change anything.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 22:59   #40
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Quote:
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It's pointless blaming the creators for a server problem when all the server issues are Jolt issues.

PA Team would have more servers if they had the chance, so whining to the creators is hardly going to change anything.
You do realize that Moderators are next in the "Blame Line" right?
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 23:02   #41
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Quote:
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[edit] Just before you get tempted to call me a fool (or a liar) again - let me remind you that the word "restart" featured prominently in those missing announcements. (You cannot restart a new round).
Rnd 9.5 is in a way rnd 9 restarted thou - just with everyone renamed and shuffled about a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
[b]It's pointless blaming the creators for a server problem when all the server issues are Jolt issues.

PA Team would have more servers if they had the chance, so whining to the creators is hardly going to change anything.
It would indeed be nice to have more servers, but jolt have put a lot of money into PA already (buying, new servers etc) - there are now 6 (at least) servers for pa.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 23:06   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArcChas
That will not alter what was said at the time nor will it affect the fact that I am right.
"Quoting the rules I signed up to and agreed with, which directly contradict what I'm saying, will have no effect because I'm not listening."
Quote:
[edit] Just before you get tempted to call me a fool (or a liar) again - let me remind you that the word "restart" featured prominently in those missing announcements. (You cannot restart a new round).
You can restart a round, thus creating a new one. You can restart your computer, thus creating a new uptime period. You can restart your microwave, thus creating a new cooking session.
Quote:
Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
You do realize that Moderators are next in the "Blame Line" right?
I blame Hobbie.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 23:10   #43
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I blame Hobbie.
No no, I'm two spots behind. IRC operators are behind Moderators, and then followed by ex-Moderators.

"Calling #7, Leshy?"
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 23:17   #44
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's pointless blaming the creators for a server problem when all the server issues are Jolt issues.
I would think the creators have more leverage with Jolt than the average player. They also have a strong incentive to get these issues resolved. Since the creators are the "public face" of PA, they need to take responsibility for the entire package. Letting PA's owners, creators and providers point fingers at each other just ensures that everyone loses.
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Unread 8 Jun 2003, 23:18   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
No no, I'm two spots behind. IRC operators are behind Moderators, and then followed by ex-Moderators.
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Unread 9 Jun 2003, 00:26   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
If you'd have taken the time to read my replies, you'll notice I said that these occurrences should not happen under any circumstance.
I concur. However, that would require Jolt to hire staff to monitor PA 24/7, as Fudge and Spinner are focussing on R10, and have no physical access to the server to boot (pun not intended).
I have no problem with complaints if they are founded. In this case, I completely agree that the handling of the situation was far less than ideal, and things like this should not happen, whether a round is free or not.

If you were referring to my last post - I was reacting to the statement that this round of PA is somehow a paid round rather than a free one. Which is not the case.
Sorry Leshy, I am just too lazy to write 2 posts, the last part was general, and was not aimed at you, not even slightly, it is aimed at the omnkeys who just say whatever comes into their heads that they think will gain them some sort of brownie points with the creators - you are one of the few PA officials who seems to think for yourself rather than droaning out utter bollocks in a vain attempt to gain status.
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Unread 9 Jun 2003, 00:29   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
Don't forget - at 5S AS, we had a 8 servers powering the game alone... here we've got 3 (jpaweb01, speed and the db box) so load is bound to be higher per machine.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mit
there are now 6 (at least) servers for pa.
I don't think i need to comment.
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Unread 9 Jun 2003, 00:35   #48
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I don't think i need to comment.
first time was GAME ONLY, 2nd was TOTAL (inc main / speed servers / dead one)
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Unread 9 Jun 2003, 04:17   #49
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You damn well know you don't mean that, heh.
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Unread 9 Jun 2003, 04:25   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
I would think the creators have more leverage with Jolt than the average player. They also have a strong incentive to get these issues resolved. Since the creators are the "public face" of PA, they need to take responsibility for the entire package. Letting PA's owners, creators and providers point fingers at each other just ensures that everyone loses.
I don't see jolt caring very much, to be honest.
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