A funny world.

[WhiteTiger]

Each time, anyone are found suspected on something, that may be in reallife, or in a game, speculations starts.
And in no time, the one suspected are suddenly claimed to be, or have been doing alot of other things, no matter if the person ever has been suspected of it or not, and no matter if it is true or not.

At same time ppl close theyre minds and theyre ears.. they are the heroes of the day, anything they say or write, is treatened with the biggest respect, it is news concerning a suspected person - just the fact he is suspected, is enough to make the rumors true.

At this time, the pressure on those that has to handle, deal and judge in this, raises. The simplest solutions are often: follow the rest. Considering the history of the world, one could get the impression that history has shown, to many times, that just following the others, not deciding or thinking for youre self, can have devistating effects.

When one of those, or those that has to judge on this matter, close theyre eyes, and theyre mind, and just run with the rest, what chanses are there, that it will be a fair, open trial ?
What chanses are there, that the one judging will even consider the facts, or look for them ?

They are small - sometimes none-existing.
Prince said: PPL want blood. Out of this i can only conclude that Prince, has shut his ear, and mind off. If the crowd want entertainment, that he will give them it, no matter the consequenses, no matter the punishment. If Prinze feel that the ppl hasnt gotten enough, he is the first one willing to go even further. This has nothing to do with Prince work on PA, which im sure are very hard, long, and very nice, but the fact that prince already before the trial has started, as the judge has said: I will not care about the facts, i will not care about the violation - the crowd has spoken of blood - i will supply it, no matter what.

In real life - you are INNOCENT UNTIL FOUND GUILTY - i belive Prince, in his role as judge would have certain problems living up to that.

Now - as we all know, in order to something to be judged, it must be judged from something. We are in a Civilzed world, where we have learned that we must follow the laws, and rules, made by our leaders. If we violate this laws, then there is a punishment awaiting us. In this case, there is no rules forbidding it.
Well, one could argue - it is a new case, it has never happened before. But it has - in Round 2 - nr #2 and nr #3 planet switched fleets. And we arent talking about 100, 200, 1000, or even 10000 ships, we are talking about 100.000s of ships.
So, when PA crew in Round 2 found out that by having shipstealers in the game - it was possible to farm - did they change the rules ?
No - nowhere in the rules are shipfarming mentioned.
It has been mentioned at a meeting, but a meeting dont make it to a rule. Anyone having studied law, should be able to confirm this. In R2, aswell as last round there was many cases of shipfarming - did this encourage the PA crew to change the rules, so theyre could be no doubt. No this still not happened.
So based on the rules them self - can anyone be found guilty on shipfarming. No. I am sure most ppl will agree it is ethical and moraly wrong to shipfarm, but does that do it to a violation ?
No.

Next level of this are - rabba didnt perform the attack, he was the defender. The attackers was from #2 galaxy.
I dont know about other players, but in my 9 rounds of PA i have never seen anyone (except in R2), in #2 galaxy beeing farm. (Considering theyre position, one could well argue that had a galaxy a farm, they would hardly ever make it to even top 25 due to the lack of score.) Let us not forget either, that the attackers fleet, was 2 x 50 demeters. I dont know about others, but if i play zik, and i got farms, 50 demeters wont cut it. Let us not forget another thing. This only happened once - that 1 time that lead to rabba got his account closed. I thought that farming was a repetative manouver, not a 1 time event.

So, with the action Prince has taken, and the message he is sending out is:

1. If youre a zik, and anyone attacks you - you can be closed for farming if u take any of theyre ship. I dont think i need to dig deeper into that argument, because it is the truth.
Rabba is attacked by ships, rabba grab ships, rabba must be farming. You as zik is attacked by ships, grab ships, you must be farming. Question is, will prince now close all Zik accounts ?

2. If you are suspected in PA, no matter the rules, no matter the consequences - if 50 persons on the forums yells for blood, Creators are willing to supply it, without any bases in any rules, and with a attude saying "you yell for blood, you will get it", they are willing to take anyone, aslong as thee is enough ppl demanding it, and hang you. I dont feel that very safe.

3. The creators goes even further, 1 thing is how you handling the case, another is the case it self - the violation of rules.
If there is no rule for killing a man, and you kill him, can you be convicted ? - No. We can all agree that is morally and ethecly wrong, but without a rule that has been broken, there can be no convection. UNless you play in PA. Apperantly the Creators has no such problems. I wonder what is the next rule they may invent, or judge up on on a player ?

Planetarion is a paid game. That means we pay Creators theyre salary. I for one, no matter if they like it or not, DEMANDS that this case is done in a ordinarly, and fair, fashioned way.
I, as all other players in PA are Customers. When i buy any item, i demand a certain quality, and i have the RIGHT to demand that if the thing dont work, if it abused, that no matter what can go wrong, that any case opened and closed, are handled according to the rules and regulations from the company where i bought this item/game/program/supply from.

I can only suggest prince for now to
1. Read the law, youre out on thin ice, punishing someone for something not even in youre own rules, dispete there has been precedence for similar cases. If im not very mistaken, i wouldnt be surprised if rabba could actually take legal steps against youre company.

2. Take 1 step up, and show, that if you are the judge, then u can do this a fair trial, a fair convection. So that the next guy or girl suspected of anything, can be sure his or her trial is fair, and not based, or decided by a angry mob on a forum.

And may i finally ask, Prince - i have during 9 rounds reported many things, multies, accountsharing, Farms, abusive language, yet, none of this has ever been handled. I know many others that also has done reports, in game, here, other places - yet creators rarely or ever taken action. I feel that due to the blowup of this case, that Prince in reality knows, that he has no case, neither does he has any legitimate rights to take his action, which leads me to the sad conclusion, which i certainly wish and hope is wrong - that Prince has used Planetarion for a personal grudge - again, i can only hope im very mistaken here, lacking knowledge, information - but it seems to me, with the events in the future, back to R1 - where no action rarely or seldom has been taken, where no rules has been updated, dispete earlier cases, that Prince takes the fact that rabba captures 100 demeters as proof of shipfarming - a offense not even listed in the rules - that Prince are on a personal vendetta. It is far out, but taken all above into consideration, what other judgement can be reached ?

-----------
This above is my personal opinion and thoughts and noone elses.

As WP Mil Exec/HC - i can only state that in the time i have known Rabba and been a member of WP, that i have never supported, nor seen any WP HC, or officer support cheating, or any other form of violation of any of the rules. I have further no doubt that Rabba is and has been playing a 100% legitimate game, and followed every rule there is in the book.

WP is proud of Rabba, as member, officer, and HC, and nothing in this case, has made us consider different.

WP supports Rabba, and i think i talk for most, or maybe all in WP, when i state that we stand behind Rabba, in this case.


- Tiger
R9 WP Mil Exec/HC
R8 WP BGC
R1 - 7 XF Leader

[zenopus]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
In real life - you are INNOCENT UNTIL FOUND GUILTY - i belive Prince, in his role as judge would have certain problems living up to that.

I can but disagree.
I have not seen any indication whatsoever that Prince is biased in any way.

When you are on the receiving end - such a statement can be hard to accept, I know this from personal experience, in an instance where the wording of the rules was ambiguous, but careful objective inspection of your own actions might reveal that you were a willing participant in an action that was at one point or another deemed illicit.
Ignorance of "the law" (announcements and msg on overview) or deliberate misinterpretation of same does not exhonerate any action.

Every players actions speak for themselves - and personally I have full confidence in Prince ability to objectively judge every instance of something that might look like an attempt to circumvent the intention of the rules laid down for PA.

[WhiteTiger]

I follow youre thinking, and i understand youre argument, which is well placed, but as we both probably know, in any greater case of significient level, shapes precedens, and of that a rule.

The precidences are easy to find - R2, R8 - ship farming did occur.
Ship farming was reported. Not just one, but many times.
One can argue, that Prinze may not have been involved in such cases, yet - then he should as minimum, read up, on all other cases of similar art, aswell as talk to the creators that has handled them, before taking action - simply because there in this matter, exist no rule, against it.

Had there existed a rule - and Prinze with this in his hand, had ruled: You have voilated - according to that you will be punished, then this wouldnt be occuring.

Had this been first time in PA history, that shipfarming happened
well, noone would argue against Prinze, or the person handling it would state "we have never tried such a case before, we have no rules for it - give us sometime, while we figure out what to do"
That too, would have been fine - afterall, there is a first time for everything.

But, there is severel cases reported in earlier rounds, both in R2, and R8. Dispete this, no rule is made. It is stated during a CH that its illegal, yet there is no action on the matter to further put it in the rules.

In another tread, a member of the community, asks Prinze directly about the shipfarming and punishment. The answer is "the crowd wants blood" - not "it is a rule which we have failed to implement, or forgotten, or there exist no precedence for it, but "The crowd wants blood"

You write "ability to objectively judge " - Unless i am mistaken, have you ever heard about a Judge, that is judging objectivily doing so out from a clear statement "The Crowd demands it" - i dont think so

Its a either or question, in this matter. Either Prinze is judging as youre saying, out from a objective point of view, in that case, what the crowd demands, can be of no less importence to him.
Or prince are judging out from the crowd, and in that case it is not possible to judge objectivily - and in that matter any judgement he might give, can not be given out from facts, nor fairly, as it is given out from others opinion and thoughts.

And i think we can both agree, that the first judge that would judge out from the newspapers, or the jury taking the stand, out from the newspapers, would never serve as judge, or jury again.

It is wrong in the real world, and it is wrong here.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
simply because there in this matter, exist no rule, against it.

It has been stated by the Creators many times over that ship farming would be illegal this round. As such, Rabbagast did break the rules, and the closure of his planet is entirely just.

have you ever heard about a Judge, that is judging objectivily doing so out from a clear statement "The Crowd demands it" - i dont think so

Yes. On several occasions, criminals have been convicted with only circumstantial evidence, based on the importance of the case. Had the evidence against the man arrested for the sniper killings in Washington been sketchy, it is very unlikely any judge would have let him walk, given the pressure of the public.

But that is just a side-point from the main issue. The creators have stated over and over that farming is illegal, yet Rabbagast decided to farm. Hence, his closure is entirely correct.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by zenopus
I can but disagree.
I have not seen any indication whatsoever that Prince is biased in any way.

The fact that he has used 'the masses want him down' and 'ad is 100% against him' as arguments for closing Rabba; clearly shows incompetence, prejudice and a general lack of clue imho.

That any such words were muttered by him at all ought to be reason to re-open, and re-investigate by someone else (pretty much regardless of how obvious the 'facts' or whatever you call them these days are).

[ronnie]

maybe whats needed is a clear description of what ship farming is and how it can be shown.

i have a Zik player in my gal who is literally afraid of attacking incase of being deleted for ship farming.

i attempt to tell this person that attacking and stealing ships is the whole aim of a Zik player but she refuses as there is no basis to determine what constitutes farming.

maybe it would be useful for someone to create this and then it would be easier to see what is ship farming and what isnt.

just an idea.

Ronnie

[WhiteTiger]

A statement can never substitute a law.
Considering the amount of statements any goverment does, the amount of laws would be tenfold which is not the case.

Which was one of my points, that if Creators seriously intended, and wished to convict anyone of farming, or for that matter any rules-break, then it has to be in theyre rules.

Many players, has not the time, nor the energy or wish to read the creators log, clearly any statement or comment that the creators have an opinion should be in the rules.
In real life, we operate with the law, and as such, when looking at crimes committed, we do not search through libraries, political statemenents, intreviues, and so forth to find what law can have been broken, we open the law book and find what law is broken.
Transfered to PA - that means that any player should have sufficient enough knowledge, what the game is about, and what is legitimate and unlegitimate after having read the rules, and the useragreement when joining the game. If creators considers that statements made in IRC, here, and other columns, are part of the rules, then a note that additionel rules can be found on whatever media/form they use, should be added to the rules section thereby clearing out any form of misunderstanding, or lack of knowledge.

This has not happened - thereby only that in the rules can be accounted for, when judging a player.

Another breach on the common sense used in agreement changes and so forth usually made in reallife, is the creators way of changing rules and agreement from minute to minute without any warning. Thow this is a game, any business arrangement, which also applies to PA rules and user agreement made by creators and Jolt, must have a warning time, and a note that the other party - us players, can choose not to accept them, and leave the game.

It is common sense in business, that beeing a company - user, or company - company that whenever changes occur to the first signed agreement, a warning time is issued, stating when the rule apply, and with a min. period of time, before this happens.
due to the short time PA rounds take, a min. warning given a week in advance should be fully enuff, with clarification what rules/agreement is changed, and what this will mean.

In that matter Creators, or especially Prince (as he is the one that has posted the rules and agrement change) way of handling creators (the business representative) - affairs need some overhaul, and it would suit him, or any other of the creators that has, or will be the action taker on such matters, to read up on normal business handling according to rules/user-agreement changes.

As PA is a business, the least we can expect of the creators, is that they handle that business as is normal, and not as a little 4 man coding group developing a game in the garage, given out for free.

[djcomplex]

Originally posted by ronnie
maybe whats needed is a clear description of what ship farming is and how it can be shown.

i have a Zik player in my gal who is literally afraid of attacking incase of being deleted for ship farming.

i attempt to tell this person that attacking and stealing ships is the whole aim of a Zik player but she refuses as there is no basis to determine what constitutes farming.

maybe it would be useful for someone to create this and then it would be easier to see what is ship farming and what isnt.

just an idea.

Ronnie

every supposed farming incident has to be dealt with subjectively, you simply cannot lay down stringent rules caus people will always find a way to exploit them, unfortunately doing things this way means the people who deal with deletions have to use some common sense :eek:

[djcomplex]

Originally posted by ronnie
maybe whats needed is a clear description of what ship farming is and how it can be shown.

i have a Zik player in my gal who is literally afraid of attacking incase of being deleted for ship farming.

i attempt to tell this person that attacking and stealing ships is the whole aim of a Zik player but she refuses as there is no basis to determine what constitutes farming.

maybe it would be useful for someone to create this and then it would be easier to see what is ship farming and what isnt.

just an idea.

Ronnie

every supposed farming incident has to be dealt with subjectively, you simply cannot lay down stringent rules caus people will always find a way to exploit them, unfortunately doing things this way means the people who deal with deletions have to use some common sense :eek: