Rumours...

[Lui]

Far be it from hirr to tell the planetarion community how to behave...but we feel strongly about this topic and, quite frankly, I feel somewhat bothered personally by it too.

I've been sitting in my dark room as I do, talking to hirr command about various bits and peices, when I come across rumours that there has been a vicious amount of hacking taking place within our planetarion community. Now we realise this is not a new thing, my god its been going on since day zero...what we ask is that people who take part in DoS'ing, Hacking and stealing information that actually belongs to someone personally - stop it.

This is a game we all play and enjoy, I feel upset that people are willing to do such things to gain an advantage. I am not directing blame towards any party or person specifically...this is just a general feeling that hirr HC wish to convey.

hirr HC wish to make it known and understood by all that we will not condone, take part or otherwise be affiliated with anyone that we know to be taking part in the activities discussed above. We put it all players and community members to follow suit.

I ask that all alliance HC join and take a firm and positive stance that we shall do what we can to extinguish all hacking-type acitivities from Planetarion. I may be slightly idealistic in this request, I would hope that most people who play and contribute to Planetarion are right thinking people. Please do the decent thing.

Lui
hirr Leader

on behalf of hirr High Council.

[Stress]

Elysium
-Seconded-

[Fleet_Multiplex]

ViruS
Agreed

[Eol]

Olympians
Need you ask?

/me looks at server

[Jester]

I bet some alliance is going to come along and disagree. Just like they did with the farming issue back in r6.

Jester

[Akallabeth]

totally agreed

-Ministry

[helloraj]

Vengeance
Agreed

[WipeOut]

Hell, I am quite sure NoS will as well.

/me pokes Dingo

[Agamemnon]

Everybody will agree with you on this, as hacking is quite simply illegal. But do many PA allliances really practice what they preach?

At one time, I was actually under attack by a group of people, all traced back to the same alliance. Since they all seemed to come to a dead end at my firewalls, I didn't bother to go anywhere with it.
Nothing really suggests that anything has changed since then.

[Zh|l]

Agreed on behalf of Eclipse.

Fundamental problem are that those who do this arent known by their relevant HC (at least thats what I hope).

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Omega Agency fully supports and condones the use of hacking, trojan programs, cracking, stealing, physical violence, flaming, DDoSing, mail bombing, NBC attacks, bikini mud wrestling, g0ating, assassinations, lying, propaganda, and sexual harrassment against all members of all opposing alliances.

And since we hate you all, bend over. Bitches.

[Cochese]

MadCows

Agreed

[Lui]

Originally posted by Zh|l
Agreed on behalf of Eclipse.

Fundamental problem are that those who do this arent known by their relevant HC (at least thats what I hope).

No but combined efforts between HC and pooling information that they can find out will help greatly. I can gaurantee that NO lemming will be undertaking any such activities.

Sooner we can get these people out of our alliances/communities and out of the Planetarion community, the better for all of us.

People spend a lot of time, money and effort/hardwork in creating the communities for the members to use, it can easily be disrupted.

[Faberius]

Auld does not and will not condone the use of illegal methods to obtain information or to distrupt other PA players. NewDawn or EnTitY members caught will be subject to immediate dismissal.

[Zitos]

Originally posted by Agamemnon
But do many PA allliances really practice what they preach?

Orginaly posted by Zhil
Fundamental problem are that those who do this arent known by their relevant HC (at least thats what I hope).

..
The above statements is the reason for why hacking will still be a part of pa.. A thread on ad wont help you any thing, though i like the idea..

:-|
- the zitoz

[Eol]

Originally posted by Agamemnon
Everybody will agree with you on this, as hacking is quite simply illegal. But do many PA allliances really practice what they preach?

At one time, I was actually under attack by a group of people, all traced back to the same alliance. Since they all seemed to come to a dead end at my firewalls, I didn't bother to go anywhere with it.
Nothing really suggests that anything has changed since then.

My guess is, tbh, that though all (if I may be so bold) alliance command really look down on this, alliances may harbour lamers who don't have a problem doing stuff like this. Shame, really. And it's not like someone will brag about script-kiddying or cheating in their alliance channel. They'd get kicked on the spot.

[[ToT]Marduk]

agreed

Tourists of Terror [ToT]

[Scorpio]

indeed, we have other ways of creating chaos. no need for hacking and that sort of actions.

ChaoZ fully supports hirr's motion.

[hAl]

This thread is sad in the way it even exists.

[dabult]

Originally posted by Eol
My guess is, tbh, that though all (if I may be so bold) alliance command really look down on this, alliances may harbour lamers who don't have a problem doing stuff like this. Shame, really. And it's not like someone will brag about script-kiddying or cheating in their alliance channel. They'd get kicked on the spot.

Any BC/HC who decided to attack a such huge amount of hostile gals in one night, either knew what was going on/had happened, or...nah, no or.

Thats the sad part.

[Not_RIT]

ChaoZ fully agree and any member/officer which breaks the Computer Misuse act will be chucked out of ChaoZ and charges pressed.

[Petru]

Originally posted by Not_RIT
ChaoZ fully agree and any member/officer which breaks the Computer Misuse act will be chucked out of ChaoZ and charges pressed.

What about the non-UK members?


Anyway, I can agree, as will everyone. But how many will turn a blind eye as to the source when they are handed a nice shiny list of intel, I'm willing to be a fair portion wouldn't ask the source.

I have never, nor ever will condone illegal methods (unless it's the physical kidnapping and water drip torture of Eol), but actually finding who does it, proving they are doing it and - as Rit suggests - prosecuting whoever it is, I can't see it happening

[Lui]

Originally posted by Petru
Anyway, I can agree, as will everyone. But how many will turn a blind eye as to the source when they are handed a nice shiny list of intel?

Well that is exactly why I'm making this thread. Getting a list of coords from someone who studied Gal Status logs, or receiving it accidentally from a stray email is one thing. DoS'ing someones IRC server so they cannot communicate, hacking and breaking into somebodies hosting server and stealing the information is a different matter altogether...

What this thread was started for is to try and get people to think above their place in the game and make the community better by not harbouring these members that stoop to such levels. If you're a HC that tolerates it, and you know about it, in my opinion you're just being as bad. Its giving licence to do these things.

Only when people who are in the organisational positions of this game, creators and alliance HC, get together and make a public stand against this and a united front, no matter which alliances you're in that the kind of behaviour discussed in this thread is just totally inacceptable. People who undertake such action should be publicly shunned and asked to leave the community as they're just not welcome.

Willfully breaking, entering, stealing and disrupting communication and information stores is just unacceptable behaviour. The more people who stand against it will give the perpatrators less of a crowd to hide in.

In short...

The assholes will still be assholes most likely, its the good, right thinking people that let the assholes continue that could really make a difference...so we're appealling to those people. Or trying to at least. The assholes will read the start of this thread and either think I'm an idiot cos they think its fun, or think I'm being pompous and disregard this anyway - so yes that would be futile. We were trying to appeal to the people who probably care, but never do anyting about it.

Lui

[gzambo]

all those actions descibed by Lui are part of the reasons why the fun is being taken out of playing the game
Rock would never allow any member to continue playing within it's ranks if that member lowered themselves to that level

speaking unoffically for rock i know we would not tolerate any member using those acts

Originally posted by Zh|l
Agreed on behalf of Eclipse.

Fundamental problem are that those who do this arent known by their relevant HC (at least thats what I hope).

I second this.
And it is indeed annoying members of some alliances tend to operate "on their own" without telling their relevant HC about their activities.

[MotoX]

While you at it, can all HC:s make the same statements when it comes to farming?

Originally posted by MotoX
While you at it, can all HC:s make the same statements when it comes to farming?

Does that mean I have to recall from the vom farm I am attacking right now? :/

[djcomplex]

Originally posted by Lui



hirr HC wish to make it known and understood by all that we will not condone, take part or otherwise be affiliated with anyone that we know to be taking part in the activities discussed above. We put it all players and community members to follow suit.

i assume you will be leaving weetnahr now then?

[faromir]

Zenith
Agreed

[TrinTara]

I applaud the sentiments but....

Ever heard heard the saying, "Oh it fell off the back of a truck"? It's used to make people feel less guilty about being a receiver of stolen goods. They know deep down that its stolen, but they kid themselves it doesn't matter because *they* didn't steal it. They turn a blind eye to the illegal origins simply because its not to their advantage to recognise the truth. By ignoring it, they get the VCR, TV, computer or whatever it is....cheap....and they also encourage more theft.

So it is with this hacking and dos'ing and other illegal or unfair tactics being employed in PA these days. Before any HC puts their hand up to say they'll have no part in any such things, ask yourself this....

do you order a recall of an attack once you become aware your opponent is being DOS'd, or do you smile happily because no defence is being sent?

do you enquire where that list of member co-ordinates came from, or do you simply take it, add it to your database and gloat?

Every time you take the advantage obtained from this type of activity, you condone it and encourage it. Its not acceptable to avoid the moral dilema by simply saying "but I didn't know".

Trin
MadCows HC

[TAFKAJ]

Since my HC isnt very forum active

VISION agreed

But surely hacking and cheating is part of gaming? Name 1 online game that doesnt have cheaters?

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by TrinTara

do you order a recall of an attack once you become aware your opponent is being DOS'd, or do you smile happily because no defence is being sent?

Of course not, such a thing would be futile. When attacks have been planned you cant just scrap them all at the last second without pissing off the players. It would be impossible to do this. Its never happened in the past, and it most likely cant in the future due to it not being logical. It has nothing to do with HC being able to back it up. I don't support DOSing of servers but you cant expect me to tell my entire alliance not to attack after they've planned it all for the day just because some idiot has conducted illegal activities. I would get lynced.

Originally posted by TrinTara

do you enquire where that list of member co-ordinates came from, or do you simply take it, add it to your database and gloat?

Yes, I know it has to be enquired because most alliances have their own intelligence department. When intel comes from outside the alliance's own methods you have to verify the validity of the data you are getting.

Afaik there has been no hacking for member coords this round and most VoM coords were found by simple mistakes in gal security (from what I know after talking to Shadow)

Originally posted by TrinTara

Every time you take the advantage obtained from this type of activity, you condone it and encourage it. Its not acceptable to avoid the moral dilema by simply saying "but I didn't know".

Trin
MadCows HC

To take an example of VoM being DOSed - there wasnt an advantage taken, attacks had already been planned for launch - its not like we changed our battleplan as soon as VoM had technical troubles.

Your opinion takes a different point of view to it all - in effect, you are saying every alliance in the game condones illegal activity.

[TrinTara]

Originally posted by Zh|l
Of course not, such a thing would be futile. When attacks have been planned you cant just scrap them all at the last second without pissing off the players. It would be impossible to do this. Its never happened in the past, and it most likely cant in the future due to it not being logical. It has nothing to do with HC being able to back it up. I don't support DOSing of servers but you cant expect me to tell my entire alliance not to attack after they've planned it all for the day just because some idiot has conducted illegal activities. I would get lynced.

You just made my point for me Zh|l. Words only mean so much when they aren't or as you say, can't, be backed up with any action. Perhaps the anger of the players should be directed at the person arranging the DOS'ing, not at you.

Originally posted by Zh|l
Yes, I know it has to be enquired because most alliances have their own intelligence department. When intel comes from outside the alliance's own methods you have to verify the validity of the data you are getting.

Afaik there has been no hacking for member coords this round and most VoM coords were found by simple mistakes in gal security (from what I know after talking to Shadow)

Well they could well be valid if obtained via hacking.....but that wasn't the question. Would you scrap the info and forget it, or use it?

Originally posted by Zh|l
To take an example of VoM being DOSed - there wasnt an advantage taken, attacks had already been planned for launch - its not like we changed our battleplan as soon as VoM had technical troubles.

Of course there is an advantage if only one side can play the game. Planning the attack is only the first stage of the battle. If that was all that was required there would be no such thing as scanning and recalls. DOS'ing as soon as an attack launches effectively removes the ability for the other side to respond. Whether the attacker has caused the disadvantage to the other side is a totally different question, but its ridiculous to say that one side does not have an advantage in these circumstances.

Originally posted by Zh|l
Your opinion takes a different point of view to it all - in effect, you are saying every alliance in the game condones illegal activity.

No, I am saying that words are often pretty flags to wave and asking how exactly does one put this moral stance into action.

Trin

[dabult]

Originally posted by Hiall
But surely hacking and cheating is part of gaming? Name 1 online game that doesnt have cheaters?

That kind of philosophy is a prime example of how games get ruined.
"Part of the game"? Hell no, but unfortunatly these wankers who do these kind of things are everywhere.



lo Hiall you ol farmer btw

[hAl]

Originally posted by Zh|l
To take an example of VoM being DOSed - there wasnt an advantage taken, attacks had already been planned for launch - its not like we changed our battleplan as soon as VoM had technical troubles.

That is really stupid remark. It was most likely because of those planned attack that the server was DoSsed. So the advantage was immediate cause the attack coincided with the attack. Of course you did not need to change plans and the cheater clearly knew your plans ahead of time making it an individual (most likely) in one of your alliances.

Look around in your joint room and you have a good chance he is around !!

hAl

[Jester]

Originally posted by TrinTara
do you order a recall of an attack once you become aware your opponent is being DOS'd, or do you smile happily because no defence is being sent?

I'd laugh at the fools who didn't make a backup plan.

do you enquire where that list of member co-ordinates came from, or do you simply take it, add it to your database and gloat?

I'd enquire and if it had been gained through means I consider to be outside the game[1], then I would inform the relevant alliance[2].

Jester

[1] - Social engineering is acceptable, as is password harvesting. Social engineering means personal failure by the alliance in question. Password harvesting is generally more of a gray area (as one usually needs a source for seeds), but is easily defeatable by the 'defending' party.

[2] - Yes, I'm serious. It's just a game. I'm a big fan of personal privacy, and invasion of privacy is outright wrong. Being a sleasy salesman and convincing Mom and Dad to open the door is entirely different than walking into the house that someone forgot to lock.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Zh|l
Of course not, such a thing would be futile. When attacks have been planned you cant just scrap them all at the last second without pissing off the players. It would be impossible to do this. Its never happened in the past, and it most likely cant in the future due to it not being logical. It has nothing to do with HC being able to back it up. I don't support DOSing of servers but you cant expect me to tell my entire alliance not to attack after they've planned it all for the day just because some idiot has conducted illegal activities. I would get lynced.

Refusing to attack / ordering recalls a couple of times when opponents get DOS'ed certainly would show your members you don't condone those actions; nor wish to profit from them. If it so that somebody is doing it for their own profit, to increase their own chances, they'd most likely stop when they started hurting their own alliance.

Taking advantage of it is just another silent acceptance of illegal activities.

Dislcaimer: i have no clue whatsoever regarding who did what when)

[TrinTara]

Originally posted by Jester
I'd laugh at the fools who didn't make a backup plan.

(player1) Mmmmm...so it made Jester happy - he laughed!
(player2)Oh, but they have a back up
(player1)No, matter, we can take that out too.....bet Jester laughs even more!

How many backups before its no longer a laughing matter?

Still I suppose there would be no need for a discussion unless someone took the view that its acceptable conduct...and I also suppose it wouldn't happen unless some condoned it even if its only tacit approval.

Trin

[Not_RIT]

Originally posted by Petru
What about the non-UK members?


Anyway, I can agree, as will everyone. But how many will turn a blind eye as to the source when they are handed a nice shiny list of intel, I'm willing to be a fair portion wouldn't ask the source.

I have never, nor ever will condone illegal methods (unless it's the physical kidnapping and water drip torture of Eol), but actually finding who does it, proving they are doing it and - as Rit suggests - prosecuting whoever it is, I can't see it happening

Thats the problem :/ heh

[Caledan]

maybe we are just naive......

but to be honest, we from ROCK never had the idea to do such a thing.....

The oone who did it, without his/her HCs knowing as I hope, is really really poor and small minded.

I have real problems understanding what gets someone to do such things... I don't get it sorry.

IT IS A GAME AFTERALL!

[Saitam]

Originally posted by hyfe
Refusing to attack / ordering recalls a couple of times when opponents get DOS'ed certainly would show your members you don't condone those actions; nor wish to profit from them. If it so that somebody is doing it for their own profit, to increase their own chances, they'd most likely stop when they started hurting their own alliance.

Taking advantage of it is just another silent acceptance of illegal activities.

Dislcaimer: i have no clue whatsoever regarding who did what when)

So an alliance would only need to go onto AD and claim their servers are being DoS'ed and all attacks on them should recall.

Also it sickens me that some ppl try to make a propaganda isue out of this, as we all know it happens to every side in this game.

[Jackal2112]

Originally posted by Saitam
So an alliance would only need to go onto AD and claim their servers are being DoS'ed and all attacks on them should recall.

Also it sickens me that some ppl try to make a propaganda isue out of this, as we all know it happens to every side in this game.

Every alliance (unlike your n00b alliance, apparently) has spies on their enemies IRC servers, so they are quite able to confirm if a server has been DoS-ed, or hacked in any way. Intel etc.

[Sun_Tzu]

[NbHA]*
Agreed



*Nothing but Hot Air

[Jester]

Originally posted by TrinTara
(player1) Mmmmm...so it made Jester happy - he laughed!
(player2)Oh, but they have a back up
(player1)No, matter, we can take that out too.....bet Jester laughs even more!

How many backups before its no longer a laughing matter?

Still I suppose there would be no need for a discussion unless someone took the view that its acceptable conduct...and I also suppose it wouldn't happen unless some condoned it even if its only tacit approval.

Trin

By backup I meant a channel on PAnet.

Or something similar that is generally not vulnerable in the same way as a private server. Fury used Deus' IRC server a few times in round 7/8 when FuryNet was down, and to my knowledge the Deus IRC server has never had 'those problems'.

I wouldn't encourage anything, I'm against DoS attacks for a long list of reasons, not one of which has anything to do with Planetarion.

Jester

[Morden]

Originally posted by Jackal2112
Every alliance (unlike your n00b alliance, apparently) has spies on their enemies IRC servers, so they are quite able to confirm if a server has been DoS-ed, or hacked in any way. Intel etc.

yes but whats to stop the alliance pulling the plug on there own server just to stop the incomming.

its an endless cycle, if you were to recall from attacks just because the server was dossed then there would be no point in attacking at all, as people would just turn there own servers off to save there skins.

also i do agree with jester, not having a backup plan is very foolish, especially as every HC knows what kind of game this is, its doggy dog,

also those of you who think it is just the alliance who is attacking that is at fault, that is not true because anyone in a galaxy which has a target in a hostile galalaxy could be responsible simply for personal gain,

thus without full proof it would be impossible to track down, its a shame but with current technology its not possible.

[TrinTara]

Originally posted by Jester
By backup I meant a channel on PAnet.

Or something similar that is generally not vulnerable in the same way as a private server. Fury used Deus' IRC server a few times in round 7/8 when FuryNet was down, and to my knowledge the Deus IRC server has never had 'those problems'.

I wouldn't encourage anything, I'm against DoS attacks for a long list of reasons, not one of which has anything to do with Planetarion.

Jester

thank you for making that clear

Trin

[Mit]

i would just like to make a little addition to this thread, saying that its not just Alliance things that are DDoS'd, The OFFICIAL Planetarion Tools site, that i have developed and host has also been DoS'd, i have a list of IPs where the attacks came from, and if it does happen to others, will gladly help them try and rectify the problems / help with logging / retrival etc as i've had to work out things like that myself. and now have a collection of IPs that attacks have come from.

[Knight Theamion]

I miss the alliance that calls itself, WP, not to be mistaken with the round 3 WP.


THE PLOT THICKENS

[Catwoman]

agreed hacking is NOT on.