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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 12:41   #1
Seed of Chaos
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best alliance in round 2?

From what I've heard, the VtS of round 2 and early round 3 was unmatched in quality throughout the history of Planetarion, and yet recently, I came across this . As you can see from the rankings from the end of round 2 here, the top 20 was dominated by fury galaxies and there were only a couple of VtS galaxies in there... can anyone explain this to me, or are VtS really are not that good back in round 2/3?
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 12:48   #2
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The top 100 planets would be a lot more telling.

Fury/VtS were pretty much equal. I'd personally that say Fury were slightly better in round 2, and VtS were significantly better in round 3.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 13:31   #3
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afaik Fury has always more relied on their galaxies, whereas Legion has (most of the time) relied on their individual members.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 13:35   #4
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 13:55   #5
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VtS were the best.

More people looked upto VtS and wanted to be them rather than Fury. Fury got there through quantity, VtS did it through quality, which makes them better in my opinion.

Although I have since learned that they all cheated on massive levels so the quality of Fury/Legion players compared to normal players wasn't so great afterall.


[EDIT: Sorry, not all of them cheated, but a lot did]
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 14:46   #6
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So, what you saying is that top planet reflect alliances better than galaxies? How would I know which planet belonged to which alliance though?
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 15:08   #7
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It has always been my opinion that while Legion had fewer, in many cases, better members; Fury was a stronger 'team'.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 15:26   #8
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Wasn't it the case that newdawn was the best of the best before concordium destroyed them... was their quality level in round 2 the best there was the time they where around? Or maybe where they the best alliance in round 2 if we take the start they had and how the other alliances ended...
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 16:17   #9
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Apologies to Legion in advance.

Fury was clearly superior overall. Legion was a small elite core, but Fury had several advantages. One to one, few Fury players could match Legion for "skill" (or dedication or time spent online, however you want to spin it), however Fury was the stronger alliance.

The advantages of Fury, in my opinion: Stability, Leadership, Numbers, Control.

I don't think anyone can ever claim that Legion has, at any point, been more stable than Fury. The internal struggles within Legion were tales of legend, dating back to R2 and the VVV galaxy practically, if not longer. The two splits further prove it, though full marks to Legion for actually surviving two major splits.

The leadership of Fury also stands above Legion command, if for no reason other than a relatively unbroken chain of command over the rounds. The command ranks of Fury have characteristically been more solid than Legion. You also have to add in the Sid-factor, especially in R2 and R3. Sid was the absolute rock of Fury then, something that Legion never completely had in a single package (all due respect to BD and Gren, among others). Legion leadership also seemed to have a strangely high rate of turnover.

Numbers should speak for themselves. While Legion out-gunned Fury one to one, Fury was substantially larger than Legion, approximately twice the size or more in R2. I believe the lessons we all "learned" in R6 about numerical advantage can be applied to good effect here.

Last, Fury always had an element of control over its membership and galaxies that Legion never really seemed to have, at least to the same extent. This point is somewhat vague, probably more linked to the stability point, but Fury's control has always been an edge.

There was going to be an extra point here, but it has slipped my mind.

In R2, Fury was classically stronger overall, controlling far more score than VtS could claim. In R3, Fury weakened during the middle point of the round, but revitalized in time to take advantage of the Wolfpack split. Therefore, I contend that Fury was the strongest and best alliance in rounds 2 and 3.

Your Honor, the prosecution rests.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 16:57   #10
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mhm... I was a total n00b back then. But I wouldn't be surprised if Alby's analysis is correct. Having said that, my personal feeling and from what I got from people around me, was that people feared Legion a LOT more. That fear factor doesn't make the alliance good, but it's certainly of benefit to that alliance.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 17:38   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storebo
Wasn't it the case that newdawn was the best of the best before concordium destroyed them... was their quality level in round 2 the best there was the time they where around? Or maybe where they the best alliance in round 2 if we take the start they had and how the other alliances ended...
You are self-contradictory there. If they were the best of the best, as you put it, they would of course not have been destroyed by Concordium.
I take it you didn’t play back then?
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 17:39   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
Chitter Chitter Chitter

Gotta disagree Sqrl, while a lot could be said of Legion troubles, round 2 Legion was one that this complaint couldnt be used on. The 11.6 thing wasnt an internal problem at all, mostly due to the fact that only 2 members of that galaxy were ever active within the alliance at all. That was just a passing phase, and really caused no problem. The leadership at that time was at its peak, all friends, there were no problems at all except for the few Videer blurps, but even those were few, and mostly ignored by the rest of us. So I dont think that factor can be used this time either.


The numbers do speak for themselves, if I remember correctly, at the time when we counted the top 100 list we had around 68 people in it, including a majority of the top 10. Fury did have the more members, but you have to take into account that was a time when CpV was also part of Legion, and while not quite putting even numbers, it does increase the gap. Plus you know as well as anyone that total combined score of an alliance means next to naught in rankings

And while its by no means a test of total strength, the day before the round ended we managed to kill PopK, and TheHive, 2 top 10 planets, as well as successfully defend Videer from the Fury attack. All of those being spurt of the moment fleet movements. While its not really the top indicator of overall strength being so spurt of the moment, doing all of those within a matter of hours is quite an accomplishment. (Of course all of that was not completely alone, VtS ships were roughly %90 of the attacking and defending forces.)
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 17:45   #13
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Planet tags where available at the time, so judging an alliance on galaxy would be wrong, rather you should have goten the alliance tags.

At the time I considered Fury stronger on the simple fact that Legion have never been able to stand on their own, but player wise they where stronger, and in the end I would consider it a draw.

So quality wise, legion and maybe newdawn where the best, but neither if them had the strength to stand on their own.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 17:55   #14
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That post is quite absurd. In round 2 no one would have been able to stand alone, it would be like being fed to the wolves. But if anyone had a chance, it was Legion and Fury moreso than any others.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 17:56   #15
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I would say VtS was the strongest back then, without a doubt.
We had roughly 120 members with very high quality. We dominated top 100.
As the HC back then put it, it was an alliance for the best players in Planetarion. And the best players in the game did not need babysitters to tell them what to do. One average VtS planet was an army on his own. We were told who to target and they went down.

As for command, nicks like Are, TiG, Grendel ++ (Sorry don’t remember the rest of the nicks. Fill me in please.) speaks for themselves.

I don’t know how big Fury was back then but I doubt very much they would have had any chance if the two alliances has gone to war.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 18:03   #16
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VtS...as a person being in one of the bigger non-fury, non-VtS galaxies I can say that VtS ceirtanly seemed much scarier than fury...to me at least
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 18:08   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doon

I don’t know how big Fury was back then but I doubt very much they would have had any chance if the two alliances has gone to war.
lol

Completely untrue. Fury would have fought to at LEAST a draw. I don't think either side would have a conclusive win, but with the activity levels of the players back then, it would have been a real war, not like the piddling things we see now.

And I forgot about CpV actually, that does bring Legion's numbers up a bit, but CpV's average quality was not quite up to Fury or Legion, so it's rather moot.

Either way, it would have been a fun fight, which was why I advised Sid to attack Legion ASAP in R3. Oh well
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 18:19   #18
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AlbinoSquirrel,
How many members did Fury have?
What was the average score of the members?
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 18:42   #19
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Sqrl should remember that off the top of his head, since he had to do all of the paperwork stuff after Cyclone left with everything. He loved that ;P
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 18:57   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doon
AlbinoSquirrel,
How many members did Fury have?
What was the average score of the members?
Approx 200-250, average was a little below Legion's average, few mil off I think. Ask someone who has a screencap of Tahmer's for more specific info on the scores, but I don't think Fury average was amazingly lower than Legion's.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:01   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
The top 100 planets would be a lot more telling.
I have it as:
63 VtS
33 Fury
and the rest took up by tuba/rb/tfd etc. I'm sure I'm no more than 2-3 out.

As for the top ten:
7 VtS
3 Fury

Top twenty:
11 VtS
9 Fury

Numbers speak for themselves.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:04   #22
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From what i remember Fury was not along way ahead of us in 'combined' score, only a billion at most, and you also had to consider that Fury took in a few big planets when WaC went bye bye, Edger being one of them.

As far as average score goes i would imagine what Biggdigg says speaks volumes for it, 68 out of the top100, enough said.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:09   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ska
VtS...as a person being in one of the bigger non-fury, non-VtS galaxies I can say that VtS ceirtanly seemed much scarier than fury...to me at least
Same here, for r2 and r3.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:25   #24
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those in the end were VtS aswell of course, if anyone still doesn't realize.. fred and decoy..
And there's 5 or what gals in top100 that are tagged CpV only, which are Legion aswell..

and yes Galaxies like 2 Lupus Cultor [Fury] (15:7) 1.143.544.510 were just taken into furby later in the round, edger and Rubra who made the galaxy great were WaC before..


In rounds with Private Gals i'd sure guess the Galtag would be a good indicator for the superiority of alliances.. in a round like Round2 it would more be planet ranks yer.. and there I guess it's quite obvious that Legion had more in the tops..



I have the Tag-Score etc. saved somewhere, would take me too long to search now tho.. but what Albinoquarrel says above isn't true in any way in my eyes (the part about overall score)

and the 'more stable leadership over the next rounds' and things like that don't actually count much in this comparison..
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:26   #25
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Fury was shiet..VtS was better by FAR...
I remember roiding Fury (or rather stealing their fleets..theives & pirates POWAR11111!) was VERY easy as long as u stood clear of a fair selected gals (i.e Sids )
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:35   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erkenbrand


I have it as:
63 VtS
33 Fury
and the rest took up by tuba/rb/tfd etc. I'm sure I'm no more than 2-3 out.

As for the top ten:
7 VtS
3 Fury

Top twenty:
11 VtS
9 Fury

Numbers speak for themselves.
they do heh

Quote:
Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
And I forgot about CpV actually, that does bring Legion's numbers up a bit, but CpV's average quality was not quite up to Fury or Legion, so it's rather moot.
Actually to get in VtS u needed to have our average score, which towards the end was about a top50 score, all the others went to CpV including a couple of top100 players.

We contemplated tagging VtS and CpV, [Legion] in the end to get a staggering lead on Fury, but felt our average score spoke for itself heh.

rd2 rocked so much :/
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:40   #27
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 21:49   #28
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 22:45   #29
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Noone could have stood alone, however there was a stat page that im trying to find btw, which showed ALL alliances etc and their rankings. The stats showed VtS on top with fury below. Later Fury added Reborn and We added CpV, the average score of a Legion planet was 20 Mil + that of a fury. Still neither could have made it on their own but VtS had 68+ in top 100 and only 125 members total at the time. Legion and Fury both did well in R2 so to show a true victory would mean that alliance would of accomplished all on their own which did not happen.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 23:16   #30
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 23:20   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doon


You are self-contradictory there. If they were the best of the best, as you put it, they would of course not have been destroyed by Concordium.
I take it you didn’t play back then?
Thinking quality... not quantity..... rather be in an alliance with 100 good players then 1000 bad ones...
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 23:35   #32
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I found Legion easier to fight against than Fury, I never caught a major Fury fleet, I caught 3 major Legion fleets, and a few CpV ones.

However, I must admit, I think Legion could have taken Fury in a full scale battle, Fury were always nothing without Sid. If you were to go ahead and launch an attack the second Sid dropped offline, you'd have been able to twat enough Fury in one night to make a fightback impossible.

As for Fury having the better command team, I totally disagree, the only Fury guy who was ever worth a wank, was Sid, sorry to the others.
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Unread 19 Nov 2002, 23:52   #33
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Pound for pound, in r2 and up until wolfpack, legion were a better alliance than fury. The average skill level whilst not much higher was definitely greater in vts. In a straight out fight, which we never really did get to see it all does depend on the time taken. Straight after the WaC split I would have picked legion, but into r3 (still before wp though) fury. Extremely tight call, in the end it would have gone down to luck and ergo we can say there is no substantial difference between the two alliances in this time period.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 00:45   #34
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 01:08   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rids
I found Legion easier to fight against than Fury, I never caught a major Fury fleet, I caught 3 major Legion fleets, and a few CpV ones.

However, I must admit, I think Legion could have taken Fury in a full scale battle, Fury were always nothing without Sid. If you were to go ahead and launch an attack the second Sid dropped offline, you'd have been able to twat enough Fury in one night to make a fightback impossible.

As for Fury having the better command team, I totally disagree, the only Fury guy who was ever worth a wank, was Sid, sorry to the others.
I have to disagree with this point - back then, the other elements of command including Alby, Ghengis and Cayl was extremely good. Back then Sid was also NOT Chief Executive of Fury (there was no Chief Exec). Your comment about the command team would apply at round 4, where the 'support' command to Sid failed, and when Sid was not around then things suffered extensively. But before then, Fury command was still 'fresh' and 'motivated' - if rather unsung heroes.

I would have to agree with Alby also - Fury was the best in round 2.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 01:31   #36
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i wonder what 'Alby' would have said on this topic in his Deus times, when he wasn't glorifying furby over everything in the world as he is doing again now.. seemed/seems like this to me at least..
it's quite obvious and understandable of course that one would always try to find the arguments pro and support the alliances one is in now etc.. (one of the best examples of course is storbeo's talking in his old anti-furby times, and now as a furby member)
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 01:33   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by randal
i wonder what 'Alby' would have said on this topic in his Deus times, when he wasn't glorifying furby over everything in the world as he is doing again now.. seemed/seems like this to me at least..
it's quite obvious and understandable of course that one would always try to find the arguments pro and support the alliances one is in now etc.. (one of the best examples of course is storbeo's talking in his old anti-furby times, and now as a furby member)
afaik, Alby isn't in Fury atm, so I think your argument there is moot.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 01:40   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obfuscator


afaik, Alby isn't in Fury atm, so I think your argument there is moot.
he was back in furby last round at least.. no clue now of course, as i don't follow stuff much..
of course he was furby at the time back then.. what i meant is that he was ranting against furby in his deus times sometimes aswell, but all this dissolved like the money on my bank account when he went back to synthesis sid's ppl..

no matter anyway.. just funny sometimes how ppl's 'opinions' change quite quickly when they suddenly find themselves on this or that side..
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 01:45   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by randal
no matter anyway.. just funny sometimes how ppl's 'opinions' change quite quickly when they suddenly find themselves on this or that side..
Yes, I'll agree to that.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 02:20   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seed of Chaos
..dominated by fury galaxies and there were only a couple of VtS galaxies in there... ]
Quote:
Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
Numbers should speak for themselves. While Legion out-gunned Fury one to one, Fury was substantially larger than Legion, approximately twice the size or more in R2.
Quantity doesnt always surpass quality. I believe Biggdogg covered everything else, including our presence in the planetary top100 on a comparative level to Fury's.

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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 03:04   #41
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if they had fought, what are the chances that fury could break into c4 or legion into c35

the problem in those times is that huge legion players would get bored and stop playing while fury dudes always maintained a drive...

to scouse: fury/legion weren't the only ones cheating massively in round 2

if a war had occured, legion player's ability to attack/think on their own rather than fury's traditional err 'dictatorlike' war style might have given them the edge... not to mention that smaller alliances might want to attack fury planets for revenge considering they were not so impressive as legion planets

but that's the past !
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 05:25   #42
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I was scared of BlueTuba's many tagged planets in Round 2, I really was. :/
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 07:53   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by randal


he was back in furby last round at least.. no clue now of course, as i don't follow stuff much..
of course he was furby at the time back then.. what i meant is that he was ranting against furby in his deus times sometimes aswell, but all this dissolved like the money on my bank account when he went back to synthesis sid's ppl..

no matter anyway.. just funny sometimes how ppl's 'opinions' change quite quickly when they suddenly find themselves on this or that side..
Chuckle. (I sound like Pat now)

I never denied that Fury was excellent in R2-3. I've always considered Fury to be a top alliance, it was their policies and politics that I vehemently disagreed with. The difference is ever-so-subtle, so I know it may be difficult for others to comprehend.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 10:28   #44
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Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
If you all hadnt been so gay, you could have had definitive answer to these questions.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 11:44   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by randal
i wonder what 'Alby' would have said on this topic in his Deus times, when he wasn't glorifying furby over everything in the world as he is doing again now.. seemed/seems like this to me at least..
it's quite obvious and understandable of course that one would always try to find the arguments pro and support the alliances one is in now etc.. (one of the best examples of course is storbeo's talking in his old anti-furby times, and now as a furby member)
actually i remember a similar thread from the beginning of rd 6.
alby was always fair in his comments, and posted no propaganda crap against other alliances.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 11:49   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
If you all hadnt been so gay, you could have had definitive answer to these questions.
I dont believe that was so much the issue.

Moreso being prudently raised and not yet knowing about the miracles of a condom. At least, that's what I'd attribute it to anyhow. : )
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 11:52   #47
Scouse
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Quote:
Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
I was scared of BlueTuba's many tagged planets in Round 2, I really was. :/
I was more scared by their recruitment application form. I'm sure somewhere on there they even had a 'What did you have for breakfast this morning?' question.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 12:04   #48
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I believe it was natural to be intimidated at first by 12:1 odds.
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 14:40   #49
Eol
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Quote:
Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
I was scared of BlueTuba's many tagged planets in Round 2, I really was. :/
My GC was terrified cos we had a BT member in our gal, afraid for alliance war incomings =)
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Unread 20 Nov 2002, 14:42   #50
Riddim
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storebo
Wasn't it the case that newdawn was the best of the best before concordium destroyed them... was their quality level in round 2 the best there was the time they where around? Or maybe where they the best alliance in round 2 if we take the start they had and how the other alliances ended...
Thank u.
Fury owned in the long run ofcourse through Sid's political lobbying and propagandising . But to me, WaC always seemed a big ugly uncontrolled monster. With a very good core of players ofcourse and some of the best players ever in PA.
Difference was that ND only allowed the best players into their ranks, and 90 of the people who joined were friends of members.

Our command at the time chose to stay small and elite, a decision we still do not regret, because definatly.. at one point everyone was convinced ND was the best alliance around, even those of u who deny it now cause of the 'wrong' decisions that may have been made on the political front.
I am not convinced there would have been a better way out of that round 2 for NewDawn on the other hand. Not without losing our face..
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