Elysium announcement - War declaration

[Saitam]

Originally posted by Scouse
If you think it's fair then you're basically admitting that Eclipse & ToT have the much better quality and that WP/Ely only level that out with quantity.

He didn't state that it was equall, he stated that it was the most equall, it is a slight but important difference. But if you know of any war in PA that has seen a more equall fight, perhaps you can name it.

[rnd|One]

Originally posted by K-W
If you actually knew for a fact many of the things you claim to be the case youd be the greatest mind this game has ever seen.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Saitam
He didn't state that it was equall, he stated that it was the most equall, it is a slight but important difference. But if you know of any war in PA that has seen a more equall fight, perhaps you can name it.

This war hasnt come anywhere near the point where we can judge its equity. So you are comparing your concept of its equity with the actual equity of wars. Not exactly a very good comparison. All wars end in inequity anyway and seem most equal at the start.

[Whis]

Like it or not this war is the most equal one of this round. Is it entirely equal? No of course not, simply because there's no such thing. Naturally all wars end in inequity eventually but saying that all wars seem most equal at the start is simply not true. The weet vs nar war didn't seem most equal to people who actually have a clue. I'd go as far as to say the narweet vs vom war didn't seem most equal. Compared to those 2 wars however this one scores alot higher on the equity scale if you will. Quite frankly I don't see how anyone can deny this.

[The_Fish]

:eek: I agree with Whis :eek:

there was no fairer solution either, I can see this lasting for quite a while.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Whis
Like it or not this war is the most equal one of this round. Is it entirely equal? No of course not, simply because there's no such thing. Naturally all wars end in inequity eventually but saying that all wars seem most equal at the start is simply not true. The weet vs nar war didn't seem most equal to people who actually have a clue. I'd go as far as to say the narweet vs vom war didn't seem most equal. Compared to those 2 wars however this one scores alot higher on the equity scale if you will. Quite frankly I don't see how anyone can deny this.

You misread my post. All wars seem thier most equal at the start is what I meant. So judging any war by just the start will always leave you judging it very equal. IF one side builds up momentum fast in the next few days, which certainly isnt impossible, this war wont be very much more equal than weet vs nar.

You are making judgements on equity when you simply dont have the information to do so. Let the war happen, then you can compare it.

[Whis]

Originally posted by K-W
You misread my post. All wars seem thier most equal at the start is what I meant. So judging any war by just the start will always leave you judging it very equal. IF one side builds up momentum fast in the next few days, which certainly isnt impossible, this war wont be very much more equal than weet vs nar.

Yes I read your post and what i said is in reply to "all wars seem their most equal at the start". This is simply not true. The weet vs nar war did not seem most equal at the start & indeed it was not most equal. Those who say it was are probably biased somehow & will want to make it appear most equal, perhaps in an attempt to justify political moves or whatnot. The same although perhaps a bit less goes for the narweet vs vom war.

As you correctly say if one side builds up momentum fast in the next few days because of whatever reasons then yes the war will not seem much more equal anymore. But isn't this the way all wars go? Eventually one side will always gain the upper hand and then the war is indeed not much equal anymore. However this doesn't change the fact that in this case both parties started off at a more equal footing than the other wars in this round did. I think that was the point some of the people in this thread made aswell.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Whis
Yes I read your post and what i said is in reply to "all wars seem their most equal at the start". This is simply not true. The weet vs nar war did not seem most equal at the start & indeed it was not most equal. Those who say it was are probably biased somehow & will want to make it appear most equal, perhaps in an attempt to justify political moves or whatnot. The same although perhaps a bit less goes for the narweet vs vom war.

As you correctly say if one side builds up momentum fast in the next few days because of whatever reasons then yes the war will not seem much more equal anymore. But isn't this the way all wars go? Eventually one side will always gain the upper hand and then the war is indeed not much equal anymore. However this doesn't change the fact that in this case both parties started off at a more equal footing than the other wars in this round did. I think that was the point some of the people in this thread made aswell.

Ok youve now misread the same thing twice. Let me see if I can spell it out for you.

All wars look the most even, compared to the rest of that individual war, at the start of the war.

Hopefully that clears it up.


To your second para. No you are completely wrong. You cant judge whether or not a war is equal until after the fact. If it was a swift victory, clearly it wasnt very equal. If its a drawn out hard fought war, it is equal. Claiming that you can take in the many factors that go into alliances success in war and predetermine them is ludacris. Sorry whis, but no one in PA can predict such matters. Off the bat, ely/wp has a huge advantage on paper. Supposedly ecl/tot has a skill advantage. Knowing they balance out would make you a psychic.

[Whis]

Originally posted by K-W
All wars look the most even, compared to the rest of that individual war, at the start of the war.

lol well yeah but I hardly think that was the point some of the people in this thread were trying to make though. Of course every war starts with both parties being at their top 'capability'. The wording you use for it is kinda weird though. Both of them being at their top capability doesn't have much to do with looking the most even. Big difference between the weet block being at that level & the nar block being at that level. While both of them are at "their best" at the start it doesn't have much if anything at all to do with a fair, equal war or looking the most even.

[Whis]

Originally posted by K-W
To your second para. No you are completely wrong. You cant judge whether or not a war is equal until after the fact. If it was a swift victory, clearly it wasnt very equal. If its a drawn out hard fought war, it is equal. Claiming that you can take in the many factors that go into alliances success in war and predetermine them is ludacris. Sorry whis, but no one in PA can predict such matters. Off the bat, ely/wp has a huge advantage on paper. Supposedly ecl/tot has a skill advantage. Knowing they balance out would make you a psychic.

Both parties in this case are starting off at a more equal footing than the other wars in this round did. That was the point I was trying to make. Never did I say they were entirely equal or that the advantages of either side would balance out.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Whis
lol well yeah but I hardly think that was the point some of the people in this thread were trying to make though. Of course every war starts with both parties being at their top 'capability'. The wording you use for it is kinda weird though. Both of them being at their top capability doesn't have much to do with looking the most even. Big difference between the weet block being at that level & the nar block being at that level. While both of them are at "their best" at the start it doesn't have much if anything at all to do with a fair, equal war or looking the most even.

Well, we are almost there. But some progress has been made.

Due to the nature of roids and momentum etc. The disparity between two allainces at war is going to always be least at the start of the war. This is assuming there is no change in the situation during the war that might even things up again.

I know thats not the point you were trying to make. Why would I have posted if I was trying to make the same point as you.

The point is that this war is the most even it will probably ever be. Past wars went through their entire runs including the conclusions which are always terribly unequal. So you are comparing the most equal part of this war to wars that spent the most of thier time unequal. ITs an automatic bias. Let this war run its course. Then we can look at it as a whole and judge it against other wars. Doing so now is speculation at best.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Whis
Both parties in this case are starting off at a more equal footing than the other wars in this round did. That was the point I was trying to make. Never did I say they were entirely equal or that the advantages of either side would balance out.

Well you must be a hell of alot more informed than me. I certainly dont have access to the kind of detailed information on nar and weet and on we and et to be able to render such a judgement.

My guess is that it is comparing apples and oranges really. Equality is really just a subjective thing. It cant be measured. So comparing it is pretty much pointless.

[Whis]

I was merely replying to your reply on Saitam's post. Now you're pretty much saying that your reply had nothing to do with Saitam's post as you were talking bout an entirely different thing. That's pretty weird. Do you usually give replies that have nothing to do with the original post?

[K-W]

Originally posted by Whis
I was merely replying to your reply on Saitam's post. Now you're pretty much saying that your reply had nothing to do with Saitam's post as you were talking bout an entirely different thing. That's pretty weird. Do you usually give replies that have nothing to do with the original post?

Erm, I said that I wasnt making the same point, not that my point didnt relate.

Where did I lose you this time?

[Whis]

lol

[Ferox]

I WOULD GIVE MY RIGHT ARM TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS WAR WITH A PLANET OF EQUAL CAPABILITIES.
A good war, sadly too late for 60% of PA

[Shakky]

Originally posted by Sakera
As of imediately, Elysium gives a 24 hour End of Nap warning to Eclipse.

The 24 hour notice will end immediately if WP sees the red light from eclipse tonight,
as WP where given no 24 hour warning, and they stand as our only allies as of now. We will
not let them stand alone.

We, as in all of Elysium, want to thank Eclipse for a nice relation this round, from
Elysium side we will split as friends, with the goal to make the game fun again, witch
is for the best of all sides. We want to make this war as fair as possible, that will make
the round last.

Elysium HC

could of waitin until i got back i knew this would of happen

gl

[Sun_Tzu]

omg, this really wasn't the tune in the bell for as litle as a week ago ^^ Incredible, truly remarkable, fs, I was gonna bet you'd side with Eclipse :/

[rnd|One]

Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
omg, this really wasn't the tune in the bell for as litle as a week ago ^^ Incredible, truly remarkable, fs, I was gonna bet you'd side with Eclipse :/

Hmm...

That would've meant the round would be over by now.

[Urkki]

Ok, let me get this straight.

The less your side is outnumbering the enemy, the more fair the war is. But as long as your side is stronger, it's basically fair.

However, as soon as the enemy even seems stronger than you, the war is unfair, and your enemy is cleary unhonourable backstabber for creating such a situation.

Right?

PS. to Ely for not choosing the easy way, siding with ET or just fence sitting.

[Treveler]

Originally posted by K-W
No they didn't. If your going to make stuff up at least make it creative. Like "Ecl HC eat babies" No one from ecl is whining at all about the numbers

As far as fairest, maybe, that doesnt really mean anything. As far as not set in stone. Thats certainly a judgement you cant make. Weve had one day of fighting. One side could start to seriously build momentum and youd be dead wrong. You cant make judgements like that a this point with any kind of confidence.

Excuse me Mr Bombastic. I can most certainly say that this is the fairest fight all round, and I can most defiantly say that the result is not set in stone. I don’t know the outcome of this war. You don’t know it, and unless there is someone with a functional crystal ball, nobody can. In my book, that means the result is not set in stone.

All I say is that nobody knows. And that I can say with a lot of confidence.

And btw, Ecl HC did whine about being backstabed.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Treveler
Excuse me Mr Bombastic. I can most certainly say that this is the fairest fight all round, and I can most defiantly say that the result is not set in stone. I don’t know the outcome of this war. You don’t know it, and unless there is someone with a functional crystal ball, nobody can. In my book, that means the result is not set in stone.

All I say is that nobody knows. And that I can say with a lot of confidence.

And btw, Ecl HC did whine about being backstabed.

You can say whatever you want. You just look like a fool.

You arent saying nobody knows. you are saying you know. It being a fair war is just as much a prediction as one side winning. If you truely are saying nobody knows than you cant claim that its fair and not set in stone.

No ecl HC didnt whine about being backstabbed. Zhil may have overstated himself, but the point of that was simply that ely, the honor alliance, had turned on an ally. We dont whine, we fight.

[Treveler]

Originally posted by K-W
You can say whatever you want. You just look like a fool.

You arent saying nobody knows. you are saying you know. It being a fair war is just as much a prediction as one side winning. If you truely are saying nobody knows than you cant claim that its fair and not set in stone.

No ecl HC didnt whine about being backstabbed. Zhil may have overstated himself, but the point of that was simply that ely, the honor alliance, had turned on an ally. We dont whine, we fight.

I won’t continue this discussion, since you obviously own me and your biting, right to the point remark, make me look like a fool. You are indeed elite. I know when I’ve met someone who is waaay beyond me. /me bows to the great master.

In all humbleness I must point out though, If that is okey with you, that what you call overstatement has been called whining all round, and probably for as long as pa has existed as well.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Treveler
I won’t continue this discussion, since you obviously own me and your biting, right to the point remark, make me look like a fool. You are indeed elite. I know when I’ve met someone who is waaay beyond me. /me bows to the great master.

In all humbleness I must point out though, If that is okey with you, that what you call overstatement has been called whining all round, and probably for as long as pa has existed as well.

Well I dont really think so, but hey, if people were wrong for 1000 years, that doesnt make them any less wrong now.

Heck, what zhil was doing may have sounded like whining. He wasnt whining. He realized he was going a big overboard and stopped. Since then where is all the whining. Or is a couple hours of zhil really back up your statement that ecl hc whined.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Treveler
I won’t continue this discussion, since you obviously own me and your biting, right to the point remark, make me look like a fool. You are indeed elite. I know when I’ve met someone who is waaay beyond me. /me bows to the great master.

In all humbleness I must point out though, If that is okey with you, that what you call overstatement has been called whining all round, and probably for as long as pa has existed as well.

I went overboard in my accusations against Elysium. However I came around to seeing their viewpoint. Honour itself is a flawed word to use in this game - it can be manipulated to suit any alliances needs. I spoke to an ex-Titans command staff about it whilst I was pondering an article.

After realizing that Elysium were 'right' in their own viewpoint, I backed down from my board activities. It was close to whining, but was not a statement from Eclipse. As Eclipse has shown, it has acted professionally during this conflict and will continue to do so. This round needed a good fight.

My statements were hardly close to what spouted from VoM.

[Treveler]

Originally posted by K-W
Well I dont really think so, but hey, if people were wrong for 1000 years, that doesnt make them any less wrong now.

Are you saying that no one has whined all round?

Heck, what zhil was doing may have sounded like whining. He wasnt whining. He realized he was going a big overboard and stopped. Since then where is all the whining. Or is a couple hours of zhil really back up your statement that ecl hc whined.

He did whine in that thread. If you whine in one post or in ten, doesn’t really matter in our discussion. He did stop tho, when he realised that we was a bit emotional, and that I do admire.

[Treveler]

Originally posted by Zh|l
After realizing that Elysium were 'right' in their own viewpoint, I backed down from my board activities. It was close to whining, but was not a statement from Eclipse. As Eclipse has shown, it has acted professionally during this conflict and will continue to do so. This round needed a good fight.

Yes and I respect that. There is not many high ups in this game that wound admit that at this point.

My statements were hardly close to what spouted from VoM.

I agree.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Treveler
Are you saying that no one has whined all round?



He did whine in that thread. If you whine in one post or in ten, doesn’t really matter in our discussion. He did stop tho, when he realised that we was a bit emotional, and that I do admire.

You saw it as a whine. I didnt, but regardless, him whining/peusdo whining or whatever for a couple hours on one thread does not really mean that our HC or block or whoever is whining.

[rnd|One]

Originally posted by Zh|l

After realizing that Elysium were 'right' in their own viewpoint, I backed down from my board activities. It was close to whining, but was not a statement from Eclipse. As Eclipse has shown, it has acted professionally during this conflict and will continue to do so. This round needed a good fight.

Abstaininig from recruiting high ranking WE players would contribute for a good fight and sportsmanship. People like Valvalis, Mi5, Mikado, blascoke, SnowSeal lured to Eclipse gather themselves a bad reputation due to these actions. Stand on your own two feet as a proud, fighting alliance outside AD also. You're almost as bad as Wolfpack when it comes to recruiting.

[K-W]

Originally posted by rnd|One
Abstaininig from recruiting high ranking WE players would contribute for a good fight and sportsmanship. People like Valvalis, Mi5, Mikado, blascoke, SnowSeal lured to Eclipse gather themselves a bad reputation due to these actions. Stand on your own two feet as a proud, fighting alliance outside AD also. You're almost as bad as Wolfpack when it comes to recruiting.

Mi5 and blascoke are not eclipse members. Im not sure that recruiting several good players from our own galaxies makes us almost as bad as wp in recruiting.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by rnd|One
Abstaininig from recruiting high ranking WE players would contribute for a good fight and sportsmanship. People like Valvalis, Mi5, Mikado, blascoke, SnowSeal lured to Eclipse gather themselves a bad reputation due to these actions. Stand on your own two feet as a proud, fighting alliance outside AD also. You're almost as bad as Wolfpack when it comes to recruiting.

Mi5 and blascoke arent Eclipse members as far as I am aware.

Valvalis was always pro Eclipse and has a history with certain members of Eclipse. He needed no luring, he wanted to fight for Eclipse.

SnowSeal joined Eclipse way before the war even started or was hinted upon. He joined just as Rabba got closed. Again, he needed no luring. He made the decision, I did not force his decision.

Is that the best you can do cheerios? Don't attempt to take a morale highpoint here. There have been defections from both sides.

[Treveler]

Originally posted by K-W
You saw it as a whine. I didnt, but regardless, him whining/peusdo whining or whatever for a couple hours on one thread does not really mean that our HC or block or whoever is whining.

You have a way of making up new definitions of words to make them fit your agenda.

If a ecl HC complain, its overstatement.
If anyone else does, its whining.

If a member of the eclipse HC whine, then eclipse HC whine. It should be obvious.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Treveler
You have a way of making up new definitions of words to make them fit your agenda.

If a ecl HC complain, its overstatement.
If anyone else does, its whining.

If a member of the eclipse HC whine, then eclipse HC whine. It should be obvious.

If thats obvious to you, then I dont think there is much hope in you getting this at all. Even if we call what zhil did whining. It still doesnt justify a claime that Ecl is whining. It was a single incident it was not sustained, it was not supported by anyone elses whining. So you using it to paint our entire allaince or entire command as whining when it was just zhil for a short period of time. And even he hasnt whined about anything since is you mischarecterizing things.

I define all words the same. Zhils posts sounded a little whiny, but I wouldnt call them whines. But if it will make you stop debating the point, fine he was whining. That doesnt mean anything, and doest justify your characterizations.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Treveler
You have a way of making up new definitions of words to make them fit your agenda.

If a ecl HC complain, its overstatement.
If anyone else does, its whining.

If a member of the eclipse HC whine, then eclipse HC whine. It should be obvious.

Except we aren't all linked in a hive mind and I already stated they were not the thoughts and opinions of Eclipse or indeed the other Eclipse HC.

I see no point in dragging this out. Eclipse should not be slating just because of some over emotional comments from myself. It could all be 'solved' officialy to please the public through "other means" to delink the image from Eclipse if you so wish... but I don't desire that option.

[Treveler]

Originally posted by K-W
If thats obvious to you, then I dont think there is much hope in you getting this at all. Even if we call what zhil did whining. It still doesnt justify a claime that Ecl is whining. It was a single incident it was not sustained, it was not supported by anyone elses whining. So you using it to paint our entire allaince or entire command as whining when it was just zhil for a short period of time. And even he hasnt whined about anything since is you mischarecterizing things.

Well then we all have to be more specific. We can never say that VoM whine like Zhil did, we have to mention their nicks and say that they whine or.....?

As far as I care, Zhil represtents eclipse as an eclipse HC on these bords.

I define all words the same. Zhils posts sounded a little whiny, but I wouldnt call them whines. But if it will make you stop debating the point, fine he was whining.

Good good.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Treveler

As far as I care, Zhil represtents eclipse as an eclipse HC on these bords.

Zhil is an eclipse hc. If he was whining for a sustained period. Or in conjunction with other eclipse HC, I would agree with you. But it was a one time deal. You have to see how using that to charecterize eclipse HC as whining is bending the truth a good deal.

[Treveler]

Originally posted by K-W
Zhil is an eclipse hc. If he was whining for a sustained period. Or in conjunction with other eclipse HC, I would agree with you. But it was a one time deal. You have to see how using that to charecterize eclipse HC as whining is bending the truth a good deal.

Well so is the "VoM whine" posts.

But if your saying that we cannot compare the eclipse "whining" with the VoM "whining" this round, I fully agree.

[rnd|One]

Originally posted by Zh|l
Eclipse recruiting WE to stagnate round more

Don't spoil a good fight, that's all.

[Scouse]

Defectors are scum. Alliances that take them should be ashamed.


Pick your side. Fight on it. Win on it. Or die on it.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Scouse
Defectors are scum. Alliances that take them should be ashamed.


Pick your side. Fight on it. Win on it. Or die on it.

What cheerios fails to point out is thats an attempt to make themselves feel better about the war and to blame the current course on apparent defections.

What he also wishes to avoid is actually the fact that Eclipse has less members now than it did when the war started.

All in all, they are rather angry that pro-Eclipse sided with Eclipse from Elysium galaxies (They wanted Valvalis, sliekas etc to all ignore Eclipse and fight for Elysium). Thus they must compensate by overblowing the issue and being totally hypocritical.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Zh|l
What cheerios fails to point out is thats an attempt to make themselves feel better about the war and to blame the current course on apparent defections.

What he also wishes to avoid is actually the fact that Eclipse has less members now than it did when the war started.

All in all, they are rather angry that pro-Eclipse sided with Eclipse from Elysium galaxies (They wanted Valvalis, sliekas etc to all ignore Eclipse and fight for Elysium). Thus they must compensate by overblowing the issue and being totally hypocritical.

"But he started it" has always been a perfectly good excuse in PA.

[rnd|One]

Originally posted by Zh|l
Zhil trying to speak in behalf of cheerios

I hope everything you did in this war to tip the scales on your favour was all worth it, that the members of Eclipse back up your actions. A good even challenge does good for PA. Noone fears a great war, right?

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by rnd|One
I hope everything you did in this war to tip the scales on your favour was all worth it, that the members of Eclipse back up your actions. A good even challenge does good for PA. Noone fears a great war, right?

Why do you continue along this line of inquiry? There were defections on both sides, unfortunately you banked on some Eclipse members defecting from your top galaxies to keep them incheck. They didnt, which ruined your firepower.

I honestly dont think defections across both sides tipped any scale.