Backstabbing

[Bashar]

back·stab ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bkstb)
tr.v. back·stabbed, back·stab·bing, back·stabs
To attack (someone) unfairly, especially in an underhand, deceitful manner.

Note: UNFAIR, DECEITFUL, UNDERHAND.

Saying to someone "we are cancelling all agreements as of 24 hours from now" or saying "We consider ourselves at war with you" or any other formal or informal declaration as a warning that it will happen before attacks are launched by deffinition prevents it from being backstabbing. Backstabbing can only be claimed if you are "stabbed from behind", i.e. attacked without prior warning formal or informal.

Just thought I would point this out, as lots of people seem to claim backstabbing all too easily

[Cochese]

I was going to post something similar, but cba. Well done.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Cochese
I was going to post something similar, but cba. Well done.

I needed a decent parting shot at all the morons who have been pissing me off for the past 18 months with their constant baseless whinging.

[Knight Theamion]

Originally posted by Bashar
I needed a decent parting shot at all the morons who have been pissing me off for the past 18 months with their constant baseless whinging.

The attack of my gal versus your gal was a clear form of backstabbing.

It was also very profitable I might add.

[Jester]

Backstabbing has never used for its literal meaning on AD, it's always been a metaphor for behavior. In my opinion it's been a weapon used by the weak to stigmatize those who have just 'owned' them. If 'backstabbing' wasn't considered such a 'horrid' act of 'betrayel' then we'd have a hell of a lot more fluid political scene in PA. More fun as it were.

Jester

[Scouse]

I'm sick of people pointing out dictionary definitions of words, when everyone knows they hold their own meaning PA wise.

Words like 'backstab', 'neutral' and 'fair' mean different things in PA.

[Knight Theamion]

Originally posted by Jester
Backstabbing has never used for its literal meaning on AD, it's always been a metaphor for behavior. In my opinion it's been a weapon used by the weak to stigmatize those who have just 'owned' them. If 'backstabbing' wasn't considered such a 'horrid' act of 'betrayel' then we'd have a hell of a lot more fluid political scene in PA. More fun as it were.

Jester

If they could just indeed see it as a game then 'backstabbing' wouldn't be so frowned upon.

[General1]

Been backstabbed in rd7 by Redbull

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Knight Theamion
If they could just indeed see it as a game then 'backstabbing' wouldn't be so frowned upon.

It's not just a game though?

[Knight Theamion]

Originally posted by Scouse
It's not just a game though?

It is, you either win, or lose.

And the round after it you actually start with a clean sheet.

But noooooooooooooooooooooooooo, people like you take it so god damn personal.

[Jester]

Originally posted by Knight Theamion
It is, you either win, or lose.

And the round after it you actually start with a clean sheet.

But noooooooooooooooooooooooooo, people like you take it so god damn personal.

No, it's not just a game, it's a way of life.

Jester

[K-W]

Originally posted by Scouse
I'm sick of people pointing out dictionary definitions of words, when everyone knows they hold their own meaning PA wise.

Words like 'backstab', 'neutral' and 'fair' mean different things in PA.

I think you are missing the point. Backstab as a word has negative connotations. It is what Bashar showed it as. It is used improperly in PA not as a quirk of language, but to villianize people who are being called the backstabbers. Hes pointing out that the word is used improperly, and thus calling certain actions backstabbing is unfairly stigmatizing them.

Youd only have a point if it meant something different in PA altogether. It still means a shameful act of betrayl in PA. Its just applied to situations it shouldnt be.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally posted by Jester
Backstabbing has never used for its literal meaning on AD, it's always been a metaphor for behavior. In my opinion it's been a weapon used by the weak to stigmatize those who have just 'owned' them. If 'backstabbing' wasn't considered such a 'horrid' act of 'betrayel' then we'd have a hell of a lot more fluid political scene in PA. More fun as it were.

Jester

the first line I agree 100% with, though the rest might seem true but not everytime. Fury did, in some way, backstab one of it's allies (without owning them). I agree alot of terms shouldn't be looked up in a dictionnary like you or scouse mentionned.

Backstabbing to me, means not keeping your promises and dissapointing a person/gal/allies whether that was caused with bad intentions or not. also betraying often suits as a cause to be called backstabbing

rgds Kj

[Jester]

Originally posted by Kjeldoran
the first line I agree 100% with, though the rest might seem true but not everytime. Fury did, in some way, backstab one of it's allies (without owning them). I agree alot of terms shouldn't be looked up in a dictionnary like you or scouse mentionned.

Backstabbing to me, means not keeping your promises and dissapointing a person/gal/allies whether that was caused with bad intentions or not. also betraying often suits as a cause to be called backstabbing

rgds Kj

But if those promises were lies in the first place, is it backstabbing? And part of what you mention is just negligence. I still think 'ill' behavior should be promoted, as quite simply, it's more fun and leads to less of the 'terrible' blocking.

A lot of people speak with two tongues, claiming that backstabbing is bad and at the same time saying that blocking is bad. This is sort of like saying 'You suck, no matter what you do I'm going to do my best to paint you black'. And a lot of people are eating up that mentality. It means that political maneuvering is inhibited by public opinion.

Jester

[Kjeldoran]

Originally posted by Jester
But if those promises were lies in the first place, is it backstabbing?

no, but I think lying is worse then backstabbing, cause with lying there is always bad intention involved, while with backstabbing often the circumstances and other events can be a part in it.
And I don't think that Fury allied us with the false promise while they were planning to backstab "us" later on in the round (esp if you see howmuch pple got angry and some even left Fury over it)

rgds Kj

[Kjeldoran]

Originally posted by Jester
A lot of people speak with two tongues, claiming that backstabbing is bad and at the same time saying that blocking is bad. This is sort of like saying 'You suck, no matter what you do I'm going to do my best to paint you black'. And a lot of people are eating up that mentality. It means that political maneuvering is inhibited by public opinion.

Jester

True, I think one often goes with the other ...
creating blocks with like 4-6 allies is like asking for backstabbing and screwing over former allies when the round gets boring, I think r7 was a good example of that.

rgds Kj

[MadeMan]

^^ well backstabbing is cool.

[Jester]

Originally posted by Kjeldoran
True, I think one often goes with the other ...
creating blocks with like 4-6 allies is like asking for backstabbing and screwing over former allies when the round gets boring, I think r7 was a good example of that.

rgds Kj

What was done in round 7 was stupid, not evil.

Originally posted by Kjeldoran
no, but I think lying is worse then backstabbing, cause with lying there is always bad intention involved, while with backstabbing often the circumstances and other events can be a part in it.
And I don't think that Fury allied us with the false promise while they were planning to backstab "us" later on in the round (esp if you see howmuch pple got angry and some even left Fury over it)

rgds Kj

I suppose you can make a case for lying being worse than backstabbing, but in the context of a game, either is not terrible. And regardless of my previous joke, PA is a game. It's just a game that takes insane amounts of time and effort; Which is why the lines tend to blur.

Any alliance should not be considered a commandment written in stone. It should be considered an informal agreement between competing parties across the table. Like over a game of Risk. "Let's both of us make sure he doesn't win." That sort of agreement, the one where both parties add "And then I'll **** you when we're done." under their breath.

Jester

[TheACE]

Thx, this thread was realy something that we needed.

Not every is good at that sport (backstabbing) ;-)

[Kjeldoran]

Originally posted by Jester
What was done in round 7 was stupid, not evil.

heh true, though I never claimed it was evil . I only said that the ideal situation was created to backstab.

rgds Kj

[Jester]

Originally posted by Kjeldoran
heh true, though I never claimed it was evil . I only said that the ideal situation was created to backstab.

rgds Kj

But it wasn't really. If everyone goes into an agreement knowing that tables will turn, that means that no one is going to be 'surprised' if the tables turn on them. And thus you should've just been doing more to make sure it wasn't you that ended up becoming farms.

Jester

[Kjeldoran]

Originally posted by Jester
I suppose you can make a case for lying being worse than backstabbing, but in the context of a game, either is not terrible. And regardless of my previous joke, PA is a game. It's just a game that takes insane amounts of time and effort; Which is why the lines tend to blur.

Any alliance should not be considered a commandment written in stone. It should be considered an informal agreement between competing parties across the table. Like over a game of Risk. "Let's both of us make sure he doesn't win." That sort of agreement, the one where both parties add "And then I'll **** you when we're done." under their breath.

Jester

again you're right. Maybe you missunderstanding me here but I actually agree with you, nor did I ever say that I hate backstabbing or lying in this GAME

I was merely reacting to the threadstarter, who explained us the grammatical meaning of the word "backstabbing", which imo has nothing to do with what it's called here in PA.

rgds Kj

[Jester]

Originally posted by Kjeldoran
again you're right. Maybe you missunderstanding me here but I actually agree with you, nor did I ever say that I hate backstabbing or lying in this GAME

I wasn't necessarily talking about you though.

Jester

[Bashar]

I feel it prudent to point out that the only argument I have seen against what I said is that backstabbing has a different meaning within PA. Without using strong words or rhetoric, I can think of but one response: Bollocks.

Language is a form of communication, and communication is worthless unless it conveys the meaning intended by the person communicating to the person recieving the communication. If the two meanings are different, that communication has failed, and is worthless.

Hence, to suggest that it has a different meaning in PA is to suggest that all in PA understand this difference, and all in PA use it based on this difference. Yet, as no difference has been recorded or defined anywhere, I find this somewhat unlikely to be the case.

If this is the case - then we need a new word for the true meaning of backstabbing (by definition above) to avoid confusion (aka communication failure)

I see neither a "PA definition" or an alternative for the English language definition, and as such am inclined to think that it is not that it has a different meaning, but that people are using it wrongly. Hence, in my eyes, my original post still stands.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Scouse
I'm sick of people pointing out dictionary definitions of words, when everyone knows they hold their own meaning PA wise.

Words like 'backstab', 'neutral' and 'fair' mean different things in PA.

I think that's due to people misunderstanding the actual meaning, and popularising a misnomer. Personally I think the PA versions of 'backstab' and 'neutral' are retarded. 'Fair' doesn't exist either in reality or in an online game.

[K-W]

I think people use backstab because it of its real meaning. They fully intend the negative connotations of the word when they use it.

[Jester]

Originally posted by Bashar
I feel it prudent to point out that the only argument I have seen against what I said is that backstabbing has a different meaning within PA. Without using strong words or rhetoric, I can think of but one response: Bollocks.

The irony here is astounding.

bollocks
v : make a mess of, destroy or ruin

Language is a form of communication, and communication is worthless unless it conveys the meaning intended by the person communicating to the person recieving the communication. If the two meanings are different, that communication has failed, and is worthless.

Hence, to suggest that it has a different meaning in PA is to suggest that all in PA understand this difference, and all in PA use it based on this difference. Yet, as no difference has been recorded or defined anywhere, I find this somewhat unlikely to be the case.

If this is the case - then we need a new word for the true meaning of backstabbing (by definition above) to avoid confusion (aka communication failure)

I see neither a "PA definition" or an alternative for the English language definition, and as such am inclined to think that it is not that it has a different meaning, but that people are using it wrongly. Hence, in my eyes, my original post still stands.

In my opinion backstabb has taken up a slightly different semantical value in the context of Planetarion. People misuse the word to create sympathy for the attacked party, people misuse it to look 'nasty' and so on. The funny thing with languages is that they're living, and constantly evolving entities. The example with 'bollocks' is perfect. Firtly, the word has taken up a new meaning in common society, to describe the lack of truth in a statement. Secondly, your context clearly states that this is what you are talking about, and not 'destroy'.

So while backstabbing does have a literal value as you put it, it has been abused to other ends within the Planetarion community, as Germania says, to paint someone in a negative light. Some people do actually feel betrayed, and will in that sense use backstab in a more correct light, but you'll note that this is somewhat backward. Backstabbing by the traditional definition implies intent. Usually in Planetarion it's misused as a tool of propaganda, where the party that feels betrayed (note I say 'feels') tries to gain sympathy by painting their attacker publicly with the same feelings they have privately.

So you see, it's not entirely wrong, because even you try to attribute it a seperate 'PA value', by saying that 'an attack without warning' is a backstabbing. I'd say that is ridiculous. An attack without warning is the most fun! Today the game is incredibly trite and predictable because of all the politics involved, and this won't lessen until we realize that what is bad in real life is fun. That's usually what makes games fun. You can't kill people in real life, so you play Counterstrike. You can't drive cars at breakneck speeds in real life, so you play Gran Turismo. You can't be an elf, so you play Dark Age of Camelot. Games are a form of escapism, even basic strategy games like Chess and Go let you set aside normal limitations in favor of the rather basic rules of the game.

I'll admit that being on the receiving end of a pk (to borrow the mmorpg term) can often be less than fun, but risk is what makes games memorable. I often play tabletop Risk with my father and uncle. The games often lead to the two of them sitting around for hours (and sometimes even days!) discussing a single game and 'who's fault' what was. When questioned on how 'fun' a game is when it leads to them arguing so much, he just answers 'a good game will get players involved that much' (this is a rather poor translation, really, but I can't remember the specific words he uses, just the jist).

So when players come whining to the forums it's actually a sign of liking PA (even if they're not enjoying it at the moment). You'll also note that people often have a lot more positive things to say about a round when it's behind them. This even goes back to round 3, when 'everyone' said that round 2 was much better.

Jester

[Kjeldoran]

Originally posted by Jester

You can't be an elf, so you play Dark Age of Camelot.

heh, my "troll" (berserker) would own the elf ofc ....

rgds Kj

[cypher]

just screw theamion over then if he did that to you? heh

p.s. were you the one quitting in my cluster? it was just starting to get fun:P

[Deegu]

Originally posted by Kjeldoran
heh, my "troll" (berserker) would own the elf ofc ....

rgds Kj

hmz, me avalonian (wizard) would own j00r berserker =)

[Knight Theamion]

Originally posted by cyphie
just screw theamion over then if he did that to you? heh

p.s. were you the one quitting in my cluster? it was just starting to get fun:P

LOVE YOU

[Bashar]

Originally posted by cyphie
just screw theamion over then if he did that to you? heh

p.s. were you the one quitting in my cluster? it was just starting to get fun:P

Yes I have quit cyphie, and I agree it was fun, but in the end, I have other priorities at the moment, and they lie outside PA. By the way, sorry for backstabbing you earlier in the round, that was quite genuinely backstabbing. The amusing thing is, I didn't see anyone from your galaxy moaning about it here. Was still a laugh though, and I wish it could continue, but for me it can't. I am sure you'll still have some fun though. Give my regards to Fred by the way, not seen him in the past few days.