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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 16:47   #51
milo
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

im not sure all rape is even a sexual thing, its meant to be about power isn't it? mutilating someones genitals is a step too far imho, way way way to far. I agree that giving medication to stop someone acting in a particular way isn't that controversial (its done with many other conditions) but im uncomfortable with the notion of a 'cure' for sex related 'crimes', particularly as i said earlier i don't even agree that some of those things should have been considered crimes.

Mutilation to cure someone from finding someone else attractive if they're below the age which you consider to be acceptable is akin to lobotomyesque bollocks. In the article linked above it mentioned the 'paedo' had a very low IQ and couldn't even estimate the distance he was meant to keep from schools, 100years ago they might have considered brain butchery to 'cure' him id hope that we'd be able to see the horror of those procedures and not go down a fairly similar route.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 16:49   #52
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

paisley, have you ever watched brass eye? genuinely curious
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:07   #53
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Exclamation Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was : This is not going to cure people from being abusers. If you want to make sure that someone is not going to hurt anyone ever again then sure, put a bullet through the back of their head. But mutilating their genitals does not seem like a very sure way of stopping someone being a criminal.
Are there any sure ways (outside of the bullet through the head)? All we have are a range of options, none of which appears to be 100% effective.

As an aside, voluntary castration has been successful in reducing repeat sexual offenses for some offenders. Obviously, anyone submitting to voluntary castration is motivated to change their behavior, but I don't think we can rule out hormones as a cause or contributing factor for at least some offenders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snurx
Do you really think its worht mutilating even one innocent if it stops 1000 rapes?
Physical castration is mostly out of favor now. The preferred method is with hormone injections/implants which neutralize testosterone. As such, it's reversible.

Better living through chemistry.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:17   #54
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

I did not suggest just mutilating their genitals. I also suggest throwing them into general population in a prison, and let it well known they diddle little children. I have no tolerance for paedophiles, rapists. A bullet is to good for them. Also for people to be standing up for the rights of paedophiles and rapists is completely bizarre. If they are mentally handicapped lock them up a psych ward. Just get them off the f'n streets.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:31   #55
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
I did not suggest just mutilating their genitals. I also suggest throwing them into general population in a prison, and let it well known they diddle little children. I have no tolerance for paedophiles, rapists. A bullet is to good for them. Also for people to be standing up for the rights of paedophiles and rapists is completely bizarre. If they are mentally handicapped lock them up a psych ward. Just get them off the f'n streets.
This level of intolerance only pushes paedophiles (in the attracted sense) out onto the fringes of society. It forces them to hide and repress parts of themselves instead of dealing with them healthily. They don't need hatred, they need help.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:42   #56
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Well of course I am intolerant, they are paedophiles/rapists. They should be hiding. Especially the paedophiles.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:46   #57
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
Well of course I am intolerant, they are paedophiles/rapists. They should be hiding. Especially the paedophiles.
A paedophile is just someone who is sexually attracted to children. Directing your own sexual attraction is, at best, hilariously difficult. You're not going to get anywhere by rounding up a lynch mob every time someone says they're attracted to children.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:55   #58
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

There will be no need for the lynch mob if they do not act upon their impulses. Once they know they have a problem they should go seek help. I would like to hear the opinion of someone on here, whom has children. I can assure you if I have children and they are subjected to said abuse, my first reaction will not be to ask the paedophile if they need help.

I am typically a very "left" wing person on most views, but this rehabilitation of paedophilies is hippy bullshit. Are you going to be able to "rehabilitate" Dace from liking women? Are you going to be able to "rehabilitate" Yahwe from liking men? No. So how are you going to "rehabilitate" a paedophile from liking children?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:57   #59
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
So how are you going to "rehabilitate" a paedophile from liking children?
You're not. That's the point. That's why your rehabilitating their actions, not their desires.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 17:59   #60
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
There will be no need for the lynch mob if they do not act upon their impulses. Once they know they have a problem they should go seek help. I would like to hear the opinion of someone on here, whom has children. I can assure you if I have children and they are subjected to said abuse, my first reaction will not be to ask the paedophile if they need help.
The point is that isolating people and causing them to be afraid is most likely not going to lead to a healthy balanced individual unlikely to act on certain impulses.

Quote:
I am typically a very "left" wing person on most views, but this rehabilitation of paedophilies is hippy bullshit. Are you going to be able to "rehabilitate" Dace from liking women? Are you going to be able to "rehabilitate" Yahwe from liking men? No. So how are you going to "rehabilitate" a paedophile from liking children?
You don't change the preference. You prevent the action. Without killing people.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:01   #61
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

That is just a band-aid solution. Whose to say they don't stop taking their "liquid" castration? Plenty of people with mental disabilities go off their meds every day. Then you have a paedophile who has not "performed" in a while and is itching to explore the playgrounds.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:04   #62
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Given that children can include anything up to a 17 year old in some countries, yes I think it can be victimless.

And as I have discussed previously I do not think that downloading child pornography should be a crime. Obviously making it is another matter (although the vast majority of photographs of children naked are probably harmless family photos, so I guess that can be victimless too).
There is a difference between "barely legal" and primary school kids.
16 year olds can have legal sex and are at an age to understand what the deal is with it.
(Apparently some clever **** thought is was a good idea for you that you cant legally watch porn of the adult variety but you can shag the "School babe" at 16 years of age but thats a different story.)
6-8 year olds will see as an unplesant game of "doctors and nurses" which they wont understand. Which will leave them Confused in the best case senario. Absolutey destroyed in the mind being the worst case.
(Some even get murdered after the vile act.)

I bet you would be changing your tune is this was YOUR child/
brother/sister/cousin.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:10   #63
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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paisley, have you ever watched brass eye? genuinely curious
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:17   #64
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
There is a difference between "barely legal" and primary school kids.
Yeah, I agree. I never said there wasn't a difference. In fact, that was my point.

Quote:
Absolutey destroyed in the mind being the worst case. (Some even get murdered after the vile act.)
What has this got to do with what I posted? I said that "making [child porn] was another matter" - i.e. that it should be illegal.
Quote:
I bet you would be changing your tune is this was YOUR child/
brother/sister/cousin.
Change my tune about what? That making child porn should be illegal? No, I'd still think it should be illegal to make child porn even if it was my brother/sister/cousin making it. Although I presume you meant something else - it's difficult to tell. You seem to just be posting a lot of moral outrage even where people are in agreement with you.

Which bit of my post do you disagree with?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:25   #65
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

I think by "changing your tune" he meant that you may not be so liberal about their rehabilitation.

i.e. Someone rapes your 8 year old daughter
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:25   #66
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley

I bet you would be changing your tune is this was YOUR child/
brother/sister/cousin.

in that context he'd probably be the one making it..., and as far as i can read that wasn't what he meant. Tangential to the thread but this all rests on what you consider to be a 'child' and 'pornography'.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:37   #67
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yeah, I agree. I never said there wasn't a difference. In fact, that was my point.

What has this got to do with what I posted? I said that "making [child porn] was another matter" - i.e. that it should be illegal.
Change my tune about what? That making child porn should be illegal? No, I'd still think it should be illegal to make child porn even if it was my brother/sister/cousin making it. Although I presume you meant something else - it's difficult to tell. You seem to just be posting a lot of moral outrage even where people are in agreement with you.

Which bit of my post do you disagree with?
let me mark your card...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And as I have discussed previously I do not think that downloading child pornography should be a crime
So you do not think that it should be an offense for downloading child porn. Even if One of these individuals is downloading a picture of your young family member, wanking off to for their sick pleasure
Would you find this distrubing?

If it is a typo fair enough, mistakes happen.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:37   #68
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
That is just a band-aid solution. Whose to say they don't stop taking their "liquid" castration? Plenty of people with mental disabilities go off their meds every day. Then you have a paedophile who has not "performed" in a while and is itching to explore the playgrounds.
I'm not talking about drugs. I'm talking about social acceptance of the origins of their problem and an end to the dehumanizing of them.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:39   #69
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
So you do not think that it should be an offense for downloading child porn. Even if One of these individuals is downloading a picture of your young family member, wanking off to for their sick pleasure
Would you find this distrubing?
Who is being harmed by this specific act?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:44   #70
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Paisley
So you do not think that it should be an offense for downloading child porn. Even if One of these individuals is downloading a picture of your young family member, wanking off to for their sick pleasure
No, I don't think this should be a crime. If however they molested a member of my family I'd like to think that I would hurt them very badly. But if they're just looking at pictures of them, I fail to see what actual additional harm it's doing. If (say) there was a video that had been made of my daughter being raped then obviously the harm done was when the video was made and that's where the crime was committed. People watching a video of it later aren't somehow mystically increasing the damage done.

It's not like I'd even know about it in most cases. If they actually phoned up to say they were wanking off (at that moment) over a picture of my kid then I presume I could have them prosecuted under some sort of harrassment law (and I probably would).
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Would you find this disturbing?
Probably a bit. But then again, if my girlfriend was a model who was over 18 who appeared in FHM she'd probably have men wanking off over her (er, the pictures I mean). I'd probably find that pretty disturbing too, but I'd still not think it should be a crime.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:46   #71
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Who is being harmed by this specific act?
Actually some of the victims on the photos have serious mental problems realising that their picture is circulating forever on the internet or among certain groups of people and that the abuse they experienced therefore will never stop (its re-enacted forever). It can produce flashbacks and suicide attempts.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:50   #72
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Actually some of the victims on the photos have serious mental problems realising that their picture is circulating forever on the internet or among certain groups of people and that the abuse they experienced therefore will never stop (its re-enacted forever). It can produce flashbacks and suicide attempts.
That harm isn't intrinsic dude. Some actress out there could be mentally disturbed by the fact millions of men over the globe jerk off to her picture once a week and end up offing herself but that doesn't mean it should be made illegal.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:56   #73
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That harm isn't intrinsic dude. Some actress out there could be mentally disturbed by the fact millions of men over the globe jerk off to her picture once a week and end up offing herself but that doesn't mean it should be made illegal.
Great comparision - a mentally disturbed actress against a person who was raped and photographed as a child and who never had any influence about the creation of the photos or the act itself.

But i am glad you lectured me that it isnt "intrinsic".

ps: if there is a honest interest about the reason why most countries make distributing, owning and downloading these pictures a crime/offense, i'll write it down
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:58   #74
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm not talking about drugs. I'm talking about social acceptance of the origins of their problem and an end to the dehumanizing of them.
I could not give two shits if someone "likes" children, as long as they do not act on these feelings. There is no reason for social acceptance of individuals that have committed peadophilia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Who is being harmed by this specific act?
By allowing legal downloads of child pornography you can then turn it into an industry. People would setup pay-sites just like adult pornography sites. Kids will continue to, on a larger scale, get abducted for the specific purposes of abusing them on camera. Also entrepreneurial parents will also abuse their children on camera for a price.

We should be looking to protect our youth, and punish those looking to do them harm.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 18:59   #75
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Actually some of the victims on the photos have serious mental problems realising that their picture is circulating forever on the internet or among certain groups of people and that the abuse they experienced therefore will never stop (its re-enacted forever). It can produce flashbacks and suicide attempts.
That doesn't really answer the question. The question was how does the specific act of downloading do any harm? Sure, the idea it's in circulation is causing this person significant distress, but it already is in circulation. Unless we're imaginging we can for sure destroy every copy in the world (which seems slightly unlikely given the speed images are propogated online these days) how are we to remedy these individuals distress?

I'd prefer to save any money you were going to spend on fruitless efforts going after downloaders and invest that in additional counselling for victims of abuse.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:03   #76
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Actually some of the victims on the photos have serious mental problems realising that their picture is circulating forever on the internet or among certain groups of people and that the abuse they experienced therefore will never stop (its re-enacted forever). It can produce flashbacks and suicide attempts.

their distress cannot be said to be just reasoning for making it a crime to view those pictures, im quite sure the families of those who died in the wtc were distraught at the pictures of their loved ones leaping to their deaths or ringing in panic, we do not make it illegal to possess those images/recordings simply because 'they have mental problems'
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:05   #77
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
By allowing legal downloads of child pornography you can then turn it into an industry.
In previous discussions people have raised the idea of making it illegal to sell, but legal to download. This is already the legal status for other things.

I personally don't really think the additional restriction would be necessary, but I'm happy to listen to any arguments.
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People would setup pay-sites just like adult pornography sites.
This is naive. There already are paysites for this sort of thing.
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Also entrepreneurial parents will also abuse their children on camera for a price.
Yeah, abusing your own kid on camera and then selling the images really makes sense! Remember, no-one is saying that making child porn would be legal, or that molesting children would be legal either.
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We should be looking to protect our youth, and punish those looking to do them harm.
I agree. Which is why in a different kind of society I'd happily support executing anyone who habitually molested children. But I don't think getting overly excited about downloads actually helps (or protects) anyone.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:06   #78
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
By allowing legal downloads of child pornography you can then turn it into an industry. People would setup pay-sites just like adult pornography sites. Kids will continue to, on a larger scale, get abducted for the specific purposes of abusing them on camera. Also entrepreneurial parents will also abuse their children on camera for a price.

...and the children would be easier to track down as everyone would know who they were and thus the abuse easier to stop
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:09   #79
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That doesn't really answer the question. The question was how does the specific act of downloading do any harm? Sure, the idea it's in circulation is causing this person significant distress, but it already is in circulation. Unless we're imaginging we can for sure destroy every copy in the world (which seems slightly unlikely given the speed images are propogated online these days) how are we to remedy these individuals distress?

I'd prefer to save any money you were going to spend on fruitless efforts going after downloaders and invest that in additional counselling for victims of abuse.
It is supply and demand. If there are people with an easy way to demand pictures of child abuse, then there will be people looking to make a profit and supply them with fresh and new pictures regularly.

i.e. abducting children and abusing them, or abusing their own children regularly.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:10   #80
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
I could not give two shits if someone "likes" children, as long as they do not act on these feelings.
This is a blatant lie.

Quote:
There is no reason for social acceptance of individuals that have committed peadophilia.
No dude, I mean if the culture is created you help them avoid it altogether. Like without ever having to commit the crime in the first place. That's crime prevention.

Quote:
By allowing legal downloads of child pornography you can then turn it into an industry. People would setup pay-sites just like adult pornography sites. Kids will continue to, on a larger scale, get abducted for the specific purposes of abusing them on camera.
Actually the legalisation of many black-market industries has led to a decrease in the amount of associated crimes committed in relation to them. You can reference the prohibition for a very straightforward example of this. Moreover with the industry legalised I imagine it would be very simple to introduce a law whereby you can backtrack to the actual child-abusers from the company to which the child porn is offered.
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Also entrepreneurial parents will also abuse their children on camera for a price.
Hahaha are you serious? Those parents would be prosecuted regardless. I didn't say making child porn should be decriminalised.

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We should be looking to protect our youth, and punish those looking to do them harm.
Listen to me carefully. Ostracising people and demonising their desires just creates repressed and unbalanced individuals.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:11   #81
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by milo
...and the children would be easier to track down as everyone would know who they were and thus the abuse easier to stop
So your solution is to allow for more and more children to be abused, and sold for profit. Thus making it easier to "track" them?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:13   #82
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
It is supply and demand. If there are people with an easy way to demand pictures of child abuse, then there will be people looking to make a profit and supply them with fresh and new pictures regularly.

i.e. abducting children and abusing them, or abusing their own children regularly.

and like i said, and jbg said and everyone else will say making everything open works the other way, it'll be easier to track down and prevent childabuse if we don't ban everyone from looking at childabuse pictures.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:15   #83
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
So your solution is to allow for more and more children to be abused, and sold for profit. Thus making it easier to "track" them?

Im not sure how ineffective the police are in your country but to give an analogy its easier to hunt down and prosecute someone who commits a happyslap crime than it is to hunt down and prosecute someone who doesn't leave any evidence.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:16   #84
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No, I don't think this should be a crime. If however they molested a member of my family I'd like to think that I would hurt them very badly. But if they're just looking at pictures of them, I fail to see what actual additional harm it's doing. If (say) there was a video that had been made of my daughter being raped then obviously the harm done was when the video was made and that's where the crime was committed. People watching a video of it later aren't somehow mystically increasing the damage done.

It's not like I'd even know about it in most cases. If they actually phoned up to say they were wanking off (at that moment) over a picture of my kid then I presume I could have them prosecuted under some sort of harrassment law (and I probably would).
Probably a bit. But then again, if my girlfriend was a model who was over 18 who appeared in FHM she'd probably have men wanking off over her (er, the pictures I mean). I'd probably find that pretty disturbing too, but I'd still not think it should be a crime.
The child porn industry isnt made up of all harmless family photo albums.
There are racket and profiteers that will quite happily ruin childrens lives.
So that they can supply the demand for this "product".
It was made illegal in the attempt to curb the demand for this "product."
It isnt as victimless as you may think.
http://www.indiatogether.org/2004/dec/chi-abuse.htm

The difference between your kid and your misses, is that your misses is at an age where she will comprehend what she is doing. Whilst your kid would not be.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:16   #85
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
So your solution is to allow for more and more children to be abused, and sold for profit. Thus making it easier to "track" them?
You don't actually have any evidence at all that this would lead to more children being abused. Certainly in the developed world it's exceedingly unlikely that people turn to child molestation for profit as a primary motivator. Given that there would be zero intellectual property* defence for these sorts of things, I'd expect the price of these items to reach almost zero very quickly and the amount of money involved in total would not be worth the very serious risks involved in producing it. The current porn industry is maintained because they can defend their copyright - if this was removed much of the porn industry would collapse quite quickly (as their goods would have no value).

The developing world is another story, but a lot of money needs to be invested in child protection services there generally.

* = I knew I could get this angle in there somehow.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:17   #86
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is a blatant lie.
No, that is not a blatant lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No dude, I mean if the culture is created you help them avoid it altogether. Like without ever having to commit the crime in the first place. That's crime prevention.
This I have no problem with, however I'm talking about once they have performed said acts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Actually the legalisation of many black-market industries has led to a decrease in the amount of associated crimes committed in relation to them. You can reference the prohibition for a very straightforward example of this. Moreover with the industry legalised I imagine it would be very simple to introduce a law whereby you can backtrack to the actual child-abusers from the company to which the child porn is offered.
You are suggesting legallizing child pornography? Are you serious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Hahaha are you serious? Those parents would be prosecuted regardless. I didn't say making child porn should be decriminalised.
We are talking in regards to them being able to legally distribute their child abuse videos/pictures. If they are able to distribute them easier, they are able to sell them easier, thus will get more people into for profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Listen to me carefully. Ostracising people and demonising their desires just creates repressed and unbalanced individuals.
...and you listen to me carefully. Abusing children is not nice.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:17   #87
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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It was made illegal in the attempt to curb the demand for this "product."

that always works
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:19   #88
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
The child porn industry isnt made up of all harmless family photo albums.
JESUS H CORBETT I SPECIFICALLY GAVE THE EXAMPLE OF MY DAUGHTER BEING RAPED ON CAMERA SO WHY THE **** DO YOU THINK THAT I THINK ITS MADE UP OF HARMLESS FAMILY ALBUMS YOU ****ING IDIOT?

ahem. I'm sorry, but you seem to have misread my post rather badly.

Quote:
It isnt as victimless as you may think.
http://www.indiatogether.org/2004/dec/chi-abuse.htm
Again, I gave the example of my daughter being raped on camera so why on Earth do you say "it's not as victimless as you may think". I know it's not victimless. My point was that the "victim" bit is where they are abused. Someone downloading it months / years later is not directly increasing the harm done in the initial instance.
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The difference between your kid and your misses, is that your misses is at an age where she will comprehend what she is doing. Whilst your kid would not be.
I know that dude. You asked if *I* would find it distrubing.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:22   #89
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You don't actually have any evidence at all that this would lead to more children being abused.
You have evidence otherwise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Certainly in the developed world it's exceedingly unlikely that people turn to child molestation for profit as a primary motivator. Given that there would be zero intellectual property* defence for these sorts of things, I'd expect the price of these items to reach almost zero very quickly and the amount of money involved in total would not be worth the very serious risks involved in producing it.
Well currently the child-pornography business seems to be a booming business. Why would that change once legalising downloading of said pictures/videos?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The developing world is another story, but a lot of money needs to be invested in child protection services there generally.
I agree. Protection for the children, not the abusers.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:26   #90
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
Well currently the child-pornography business seems to be a booming business. Why would that change once legalising downloading of said pictures/videos?
The price would drop dramatically as people could openly trade. Where there is no legal (or copyright) restrictions the "value" in child pornography would be almost zero. Therefore, there'd be very little incentive to produce more. However, I am not concerned with people making money out of child porn. I am concerned with people making it full stop.

Of course, if you mean "business is booming" in the sense lots of people are downloading then I don't suggest that would change.
Quote:
I agree. Protection for the children, not the abusers.
Can you stop speaking in banal slogans please. You're not writing for the Daily Mail (or whatever the Canadian equivalent is) here, we all agree that we want to protect children in the final analysis.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:28   #91
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
No, that is not a blatant lie.
So your best friend comes up to you and tells you he has had thoughts about abusing children. You're saying you're not going to treat him differently?

Quote:
This I have no problem with, however I'm talking about once they have performed said acts.
Nobody's saying it isn't a crime, child abuse that is, just that proposing ridiculously over the top punishments and harbouring an attitude which demonises people with these desires ostracises paedophiles, this means everyone with these desires full stop not just people to have committed the crime of child abuse, and you end up with socially excluded and mentally unhealthy people. I'm not sure how often I have to type this point out in different ways but hopefully I'll be stop before time ends.

Quote:
You are suggesting legallizing child pornography? Are you serious?
Good counter-point.

Quote:
We are talking in regards to them being able to legally distribute their child abuse videos/pictures. If they are able to distribute them easier, they are able to sell them easier, thus will get more people into for profit.
If they're selling them visibly and legally it's going to be easier to discover the actual origins of the crime. "What are these?" "Photos of my kid being abused" "I see, and what were you doing at this time?" "Um, holding the camera?" I'd really like you to lay out how this will actually make it more likely parents will sell their children into abuse.

Quote:
...and you listen to me carefully. Abusing children is not nice.
Of course it isn't. However you're being overly emotional about this and ignoring the facts of the case.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:34   #92
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The price would drop dramatically as people could openly trade. Where there is no legal (or copyright) restrictions the "value" in child pornography would be almost zero. Therefore, there'd be very little incentive to produce more. However, I am not concerned with people making money out of child porn. I am concerned with people making it full stop.
I suppose I can see how that may happen. Though it may in fact mean they would have to produce more. Where the first couple buy it, and the rest download freely from them. Then it would be required to produce more to make more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Of course, if you mean "business is booming" in the sense lots of people are downloading then I don't suggest that would change.

I was referring to child-pornography rings which sell picture sets for thousands of dollars a piece.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Can you stop speaking in banal slogans please. You're not writing for the Daily Mail (or whatever the Canadian equivalent is) here, we all agree that we want to protect children in the final analysis.
I think our equivalent would likely be The Sun. You had been doing well to not insult up until here. Yes, we both agree on the final outcome and obviously disagree on the method.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:46   #93
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
I suppose I can see how that may happen. Though it may in fact mean they would have to produce more.
I seriously doubt the potential profit to be made would balance out the life imprisonment that would be a potential punishment. How much do you think a life sentence is worth? Let's say $10,000 (although this seems ridiculously low since that money has got to be split between presumably the 3-4 or people who made it) But hey, we'll say that these people are willing to risk a life sentence for $2,500 each (in a team of four). How many people are going to be willing to spend $5,000 (presuming two buyers as you say) on one tape?

Basically the risk would be extraordinary and the reward pretty pathetic in most cases. OK, maybe people would molest literally hundreds of children and only charge $50 per tape, but I doubt many people are willing to sell their kids into slavery (remember, they'd face imprisonment too) for $50.

Of course, all this is guesswork. With anything like this you can't project it out of the mind, you'd base it on empirical evidence. You'd base the policy around the results.
Quote:
I was referring to child-pornography rings which sell picture sets for thousands of dollars a piece.
Well, I suspect the market would collapse for that fairly quickly. What maintains that (I suspect) is that illegality of the trade.
Quote:
Yes, we both agree on the final outcome and obviously disagree on the method.
So why say things like "Abusing children is not nice". We all know this. No-one is disagreeing with this, even slightly. Do you think half-way through the debate people forgot?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:54   #94
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
JESUS H CORBETT I SPECIFICALLY GAVE THE EXAMPLE OF MY DAUGHTER BEING RAPED ON CAMERA SO WHY THE **** DO YOU THINK THAT I THINK ITS MADE UP OF HARMLESS FAMILY ALBUMS YOU ****ING IDIOT?

ahem. I'm sorry, but you seem to have misread my post rather badly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And as I have discussed previously I do not think that downloading child pornography should be a crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That making child porn should be illegal? No, I'd still think it should be illegal to make child porn even.
I sorry if I am getting mixed signals here, let me run this through...
1.You think that downloading child porn isnt an crime
2.You think That making child porn should be a crime.
3.By your own word not all child porn is family photo albums.

So where **** is this magical porn coming from.
There are interconnected.... they both go hand in hand.
People make child porn for others to watch (usually for profit)
the internet is a means to watch child porn.

Its make your mind up time you are either against Child porn or you are in favour of it.... No half measures here.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:54   #95
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So your best friend comes up to you and tells you he has had thoughts about abusing children. You're saying you're not going to treat him differently?
Well, when you put it that way, I may not take him to a school yard to kick a football around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nobody's saying it isn't a crime, child abuse that is, just that proposing ridiculously over the top punishments and harbouring an attitude which demonises people with these desires ostracises paedophiles, this means everyone with these desires full stop not just people to have committed the crime of child abuse, and you end up with socially excluded and mentally unhealthy people. I'm not sure how often I have to type this point out in different ways but hopefully I'll be stop before time ends.
Though how many "rehabilitated" people do you suppose fall off the wagon again. I think of paedophilia like an addiction. I expect we all know how hard it is to stop addiction. So how are we to guarantee that the rehabilitated paedophile is not going to abuse children again? How would we know our children are safe around them? Can we trust them anymore? What if they themselves have children, can they be trusted around their own children? Also I'm not saying that my method would work best, it just gets my point across about how punishments should be far more severe. A little while ago in Canada children were found in cages behind the house. Apparently the parents had raised their children like animals and kept them in cages at night and when they were not around. The children were almost 12 years old, and had spent about 75% of their life in the cages. The original sentence for the parents was something like 6months in prison.

Good counter-point.

If they're selling them visibly and legally it's going to be easier to discover the actual origins of the crime. "What are these?" "Photos of my kid being abused" "I see, and what were you doing at this time?" "Um, holding the camera?" I'd really like you to lay out how this will actually make it more likely parents will sell their children into abuse.


Of course it isn't. However you're being overly emotional about this and ignoring the facts of the case.[/quote]
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 19:58   #96
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So your best friend comes up to you and tells you he has had thoughts about abusing children. You're saying you're not going to treat him differently?
Well, when you put it that way, I may not take him to a school yard to kick a football around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nobody's saying it isn't a crime, child abuse that is, just that proposing ridiculously over the top punishments and harbouring an attitude which demonises people with these desires ostracises paedophiles, this means everyone with these desires full stop not just people to have committed the crime of child abuse, and you end up with socially excluded and mentally unhealthy people. I'm not sure how often I have to type this point out in different ways but hopefully I'll be stop before time ends.
Though how many "rehabilitated" people do you suppose fall off the wagon again. I think of paedophilia like an addiction. I expect we all know how hard it is to stop addiction. So how are we to guarantee that the rehabilitated paedophile is not going to abuse children again? How would we know our children are safe around them? Can we trust them anymore? What if they themselves have children, can they be trusted around their own children? Also I'm not saying that my method would work best, it just gets my point across about how punishments should be far more severe. A little while ago in Canada children were found in cages behind the house. Apparently the parents had raised their children like animals and kept them in cages at night and when they were not around. The children were almost 12 years old, and had spent about 75% of their life in the cages. The original sentence for the parents was something like 6months in prison. All across the board adults are receiving minimal sentences for child abuse, molestation, and pornography.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Good counter-point.
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If they're selling them visibly and legally it's going to be easier to discover the actual origins of the crime. "What are these?" "Photos of my kid being abused" "I see, and what were you doing at this time?" "Um, holding the camera?" I'd really like you to lay out how this will actually make it more likely parents will sell their children into abuse.
I could see how it would swing that way. Though I can also see them being able to still stay anonymous, and still abusing children.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Of course it isn't. However you're being overly emotional about this and ignoring the facts of the case.
I think of all the "banal" shiate on these boards which I usually ignore, this is an issue that deserves to be emotional about.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 20:07   #97
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
Well, when you put it that way, I may not take him to a school yard to kick a football around.
Most people would do a lot more than that.

Quote:
Though how many "rehabilitated" people do you suppose fall off the wagon again. I think of paedophilia like an addiction. I expect we all know how hard it is to stop addiction. So how are we to guarantee that the rehabilitated paedophile is not going to abuse children again? How would we know our children are safe around them? Can we trust them anymore? What if they themselves have children, can they be trusted around their own children?
From that perspective how can you trust anyone? Maybe they all secretly waiting for their opportunity to abuse your children? Rehabilitation is rehabilitation. As I said I'm not objecting to prison sentences for child abusers, just that the intolerant attitude will not help in any sense.

Quote:
Also I'm not saying that my method would work best, it just gets my point across about how punishments should be far more severe. A little while ago in Canada children were found in cages behind the house. Apparently the parents had raised their children like animals and kept them in cages at night and when they were not around. The children were almost 12 years old, and had spent about 75% of their life in the cages. The original sentence for the parents was something like 6months in prison. All across the board adults are receiving minimal sentences for child abuse, molestation, and pornography.
Obviously the original sentence is insanely low and from the way you say it I presume it was increased at a later stage. However I'm not advocating no punishments for paedophiles. Compare it to the fact that largely people from an economically disadvantaged background are more likely to commit general violent crimes, murder, armed robbery etc. While nobody proposes not prosecuting people for violent crime, quite obviously an improvement in their economic circumstances would lead to a drop in the overall crime rate.


Quote:
I could see how it would swing that way. Though I can also see them being able to still stay anonymous, and still abusing children.
How? As I said could you outline an actual set of circumstances for me?

Quote:
I think of all the "banal" shiate on these boards which I usually ignore, this is an issue that deserves to be emotional about.
Being emotional about issues means you're not being fully rational about them.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 20:15   #98
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
How? As I said could you outline an actual set of circumstances for me?
Well for instance pictures of abducted children on foreign domains, where the countries have strict privacy laws restricting agencies from properly tracking where the content came from, or from whom it came from. This would keep this sort of behaviour anonymous, and as long as it were not your own child officials would not be able to track it to anyone.



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Being emotional about issues means you're not being fully rational about them.
This is true, however, I do not feel I am to far off base.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 20:19   #99
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
So where **** is this magical porn coming from.
Correct me if I'm wrong, making child porn is currently illegal, and yet it does exist.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 20:20   #100
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
I sorry if I am getting mixed signals here, let me run this through...
1.You think that downloading child porn isnt an crime
2.You think That making child porn should be a crime.
3.By your own word not all child porn is family photo albums.
Correct, although it *is* a crime presently to download child porn, I just don't think it *should* be. Bit of a big difference.
Quote:
Its make your mind up time you are either against Child porn or you are in favour of it.... No half measures here.
This doesn't make sense. It's quite clear. I don't think child porn should be made. However, once it has been made, it's pointless prosecuting people for downloading it. It's not a case of whether I'm "for" or "against" it, obviously I'm against it - but that's not the issue. The issue is whether it should be a crime to download it. This really isn't complicated.

Similarly, in a completely different context if other criminals uploaded video tapes of themselves (say) robbing a bank I don't think there would be any point prosecuting people who download these files. The people who commit the original crime should obviously be punished.
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