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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:32   #1
Kurashima
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This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4074498.stm

But I do wish we could dish out proper justice to little ****ups like this. Sod the belt , a huge ****ing plank of wood. Right across the head.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:36   #2
Madina
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Which ever tit gave them an air rifle is....
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:39   #3
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

house arrest is the only solution for those pair.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:44   #4
«Messiah»
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Both are banned from swearing, making rude gestures, damaging property, starting fires and throwing missiles.
ASBOS are so ****ing stupid. How can you ban someone from damaging property? IT'S ALREADY ILLEGAL. THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE IN COURT FOR.

"You are banned from swearing"
"**** you"
"You have contravened the ban! I am now banning you from swearing as a punishment"

Sheer lunacy
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:46   #5
Yahwe
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by «Messiah»
ASBOS are so ****ing stupid. How can you ban someone from damaging property? IT'S ALREADY ILLEGAL. THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE IN COURT FOR.

"You are banned from swearing"
"**** you"
"You have contravened the ban! I am now banning you from swearing as a punishment"

Sheer lunacy
actually the punishment is 5 years in prison

see??

do you see now??

why ASBOs are ****ING WRONG
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:50   #6
«Messiah»
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
actually the punishment is 5 years in prison

see??

do you see now??

why ASBOs are ****ING WRONG
Jail i can understand. That seems like a punishment. Even some asbos actually seem relatively effective.

I just can't comprehend what must go through peoples heads when they think "I know, lets ban them from doing the things they're already here for! That'll show them!"
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:54   #7
Yahwe
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by «Messiah»
I just can't comprehend what must go through peoples heads when they think "I know, lets ban them from doing the things they're already here for! That'll show them!"
but when they breach that spastic ban it's ok to put em in prison for 5 years???

for that not illegal act of swearing????
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 00:59   #8
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
but when they breach that spastic ban it's ok to put em in prison for 5 years???

for that not illegal act of swearing????
Ah, right, sorry. I misunderstood. Yeah, 5 yrs for something not illegal is a tad retarded.

But what I don't understand is why they have the "intermediate" stage of using an asbo to ban something that's already illegal.

Damaging property is illegal -> Person damages property -> ASBO then bans them from damaging property -> Person breaks ASBO -> jail

Why not just miss out the middle stage completely? I don't understand why people would see the middle bit as being at all effective.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 01:09   #9
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Are you saying they could be jailed for swearing after receiving this order?
That seems a bit..excessive.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 01:52   #10
Yahwe
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by «Messiah»
Ah, right, sorry. I misunderstood. Yeah, 5 yrs for something not illegal is a tad retarded.

But what I don't understand is why they have the "intermediate" stage of using an asbo to ban something that's already illegal.

Damaging property is illegal -> Person damages property -> ASBO then bans them from damaging property -> Person breaks ASBO -> jail

Why not just miss out the middle stage completely? I don't understand why people would see the middle bit as being at all effective.
oh i understand, sorry.

yeah they do both

asbos to ban things that are already illegal (it increases the sentec you see, so we get people put in prison for longer. no obvious reasons why)

and asbos to make non illegal things illegal (5 ****ing years, you don't get that for smashing someone's face in ffs)

asbos are shit on both levels
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 01:54   #11
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

If poor people swear it's an indication they're thinking of mugging you and raping your wife.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 01:59   #12
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Exclamation Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

I don't seh wehy gas sghouldn't be an option./
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 02:08   #13
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

the age of criminal responsability also needs to be lowered
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 02:10   #14
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
the age of criminal responsability also needs to be lowered
below 10???????????
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 02:13   #15
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
below 10???????????
there was a story on the news a while ago of a couple of kids (i forget how old they were) throwing bricks off of a motorway bridge. The police couldn't charge them because they were below the age of CR. It worries me that there were children that young actually putting peoples lives at risk. It worries me even more that was nothing to stop them from going back and doing it again
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 02:18   #16
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
there was a story on the news a while ago of a couple of kids (i forget how old they were) throwing bricks off of a motorway bridge. The police couldn't charge them because they were below the age of CR. It worries me that there were children that young actually putting peoples lives at risk. It worries me even more that was nothing to stop them from going back and doing it again
you big ****ing coward

find me an 8 year old who wouldn't throw a brick off a bridge if he was allowed to

you listen to the police too much.

the parents are still liable. and there are 11 year olds in young offenders institutions.

do you really want 9 year olds there too?
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 02:43   #17
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

you have ****ing ugly people there in brittain, starting with the mug shots of those two oxygen wasters!
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 02:44   #18
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you big ****ing coward

find me an 8 year old who wouldn't throw a brick off a bridge if he was allowed to

you listen to the police too much.

the parents are still liable. and there are 11 year olds in young offenders institutions.

do you really want 9 year olds there too?
throwing a brick off of a motorway bridge is nothing more than murder. it's no different to shooting someone or stabbing them. The same with placing an obstruction on the railway.

of course i listen to the police. who do you expect me to listen to? the government? the parents? the lawyers?

just because the parents are still liable, doesn't mean you will stop the child commiting a crime. a perfect example can be seen in kura's link. no doubt those boys parents were warned on several occasions of their childrens behaviour but it didn't stop them. If a 9 year old throws a brick off of a bridge, which then smashes through the windscreen of a car travelling at 70+mph, causing the drivers death and a serious risk to other drivers what would you rather happen? a "slap on the wrist" and told not to do it again, or a couple of years in young offenders? I know what i'd rather see happen to the cock
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 02:53   #19
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
throwing a brick off of a motorway bridge is nothing more than murder. it's no different to shooting someone or stabbing them. The same with placing an obstruction on the railway.

of course i listen to the police. who do you expect me to listen to? the government? the parents? the lawyers?

just because the parents are still liable, doesn't mean you will stop the child commiting a crime. a perfect example can be seen in kura's link. no doubt those boys parents were warned on several occasions of their childrens behaviour but it didn't stop them. If a 9 year old throws a brick off of a bridge, which then smashes through the windscreen of a car travelling at 70+mph, causing the drivers death and a serious risk to other drivers what would you rather happen? a "slap on the wrist" and told not to do it again, or a couple of years in young offenders? I know what i'd rather see happen to the cock
so.

when a two year old stabs someone it is better to put him on trial for murder than to ask 'how the hell did a 2 year old get a knife'.

you terrified little fool.

"of course i listen to the police. who do you expect me to listen to? the government? the parents? the lawyers?"

bout sums it up doesn't it.

"of course i listen to the police who do you expect me to listen to? the democratically elected people who get all the statistics and take the big picture and who lose their jobs in an election if they're wrong? the people who care about wasting an innocent young life by pretending it did anything worse than what all other children would (and do every single day) do? the people who have trained for years to learn and perfect a complicated system, who see truly horrendous crimes day in day out and can tell the difference between a tragedy and a crime?"

no. you prefer "the people who don't need a levels. who make money out of putting people in prison and who get a budget cut (job cuts) if there is a drop in crime"

well chosen. wanker.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:04   #20
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

It seems to me that dave has sugested that in these cases the parents dont care, and lets be honest, lawyers are not the most trustworthy profession in the world. The defendant of the child will obviously try and make the truth look slightly different than it actually is (assuming the child is actually guilty), because its their job. And the government, I didn't vote for them, why should I believe anything they say?
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:19   #21
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
It seems to me that dave has sugested that in these cases the parents dont care, and lets be honest, lawyers are not the most trustworthy profession in the world. The defendant of the child will obviously try and make the truth look slightly different than it actually is (assuming the child is actually guilty), because its their job.
no its not.

see all this half baked modern cynicism actually does have real repercussions if you start actually listening to the police.

they have one answer to every problem.

such inflexibility may not be the best way to deal with social issues.

but hey.

let's all read the daily mail.

let's all live in fear of crime, lock up anyone who we think might do something to us and give all control to an unaccountable body of ill educated institutional racists.

its not like a policeforce in history has ever turned 'bad'
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:27   #22
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

i resent the suggestion that I read the daily mail. I know the people in the police force local to me and they are not the corrupt ill educated racists that you seem to believe the police to be. That is more of a daily mail-esque opinion than my thought that laywers are liars and that the parents in these situations are generally shit (which is true, my dad works in a school full of little bastards like these and the parents or family lives of the children generally leave much to be desired).
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:33   #23
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
i resent the suggestion that I read the daily mail. I know the people in the police force local to me and they are not the corrupt ill educated racists that you seem to believe the police to be. That is more of a daily mail-esque opinion than my thought that laywers are liars and that the parents in these situations are generally shit (which is true, my dad works in a school full of little bastards like these and the parents or family lives of the children generally leave much to be desired).
you seem to be massively overrating the value of the police force. While unquestionably many police officers are reasonably friendly people off duty, they are collectively defined by their lowest common denominator, the ill-educated, bigoted thug. Similarly, a popular sterotype of lawyers arises from the fact that most people with experience of lawyers have experience of a lawyer trying to rubbish their claims.

The role of the policeman is to apprehend miscreants. The role of the judge, lawyer, and ultimately the government is to determine how these miscreants should be punished. The opinion of the policeman is irrelevant and unfurnished with thorough understanding of the ins-and-outs of every case and every legal nuance; this is why policemen do not need to be educated or experienced - the role of the police officer is ONLY, regardless of what they may claim, to catch criminals and deliver them to justice - not practised by them.

As Yahwe says, it is in the interests of the policeman to find more crime. It may well be in the interests of the lawyer to win their case, but it is harder to fool a judge than to penalise innocents incorrectly. There is not an altruistic bone in the body of the police officer by nature, and this is where parents come in to the equation.

A parent knows their child better than anyone, or at least ought to. Bad parenting will usually be observed and taken into consideration in the practice of law, and good parenting will fight up to the hilt in the interests of the child - a party which otherwise would have the balance tipped against it. Further to being a reliable witness for criminal cases, the parent somewhat more importantly holds the role of educator in morals for the child, and as such should be given a much greater role in these cases. If the parent is unfit to raise their child, Social Services carry out a necessary function here.

Regardless of which group you choose to give the most weight to, the police must carry least of all.


Oh, and 'cops are pigs' is pretty much diametrically opposed to the daily mail standpoint. Just so you know.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:19   #24
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

To be fair, they are from Newport. Prison is probably a step up for them.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:58   #25
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

so yahwe... what do YOU suggest?
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:17   #26
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Quote:
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Similarly, a popular sterotype of lawyers arises from the fact that most people with experience of lawyers have experience of a lawyer trying to rubbish their claims.

phang i couldn't have posted better myself

and since that makes me old and useless I thought i'd add a bit of useless information.

modern unpopularity of lawyers derrives from america's longterm hatred of their lawyers. as you know american law is far more theatre than it is plain law.
naturally with the influx of american comedy programmes which started in the 80s england imported american 'anti-lawyer' humour.
no where is this more obvious than the fact that all such jokes use the phrase 'lawyer' which is was not a common british term before the influx of american jokes; and as you know, there are no 'lawyers' we have solicitors and barristers.

anti lawyer jokes are utterly off what the reality of british justice are and are just another example of americas cultural influence.

its a pity that these jokes have undermined public confidence in the british legal system, which remains the best in the world.

here endeth the rant
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 19:17   #27
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

ASBOs are the wrong response, but they exist because the law is perceived to have failed when dealing with certain types of behaviour. Yeah, prison for someone swearing is stupid but equally what do you do about someone who continually acts in a manner which causes infringes on other people.

For major violent crimes I'd feel confident the criminal justice system "works" in that the majority of offenders are probably caught and faced with some sort of imprisonment / rehabilitation / etc. However, where someone just continually acts like a twat the law (for whatever reason) is less likely to achieve results.

Speaking for the organisation I work for, for instance, where there are "nuisance" cases (e.g. noise, harrasment of some kind, etc) they are generally only solved through either :

1. One of the parties moving away from the area.
2. One of the parties being evicted (very rare, and takes ages)
3. It escalating to some sort of violent incident where the police do get involved.

3 is undesirable, 1 is difficult (a lot of these people cannot move) and 2 has it's own costs anyway (since you often have to rehouse people anyway, depending on the Homeless Persons Unit view).

Phang : Obviously the parents have some sort of role to play, but I think it's fair to say that the parents are either incapable or unwilling to enforce those kind of morals. It may be they need significant support (which is fair enough) but taking their children into care will probably not resolve matters particularly. For one it will disrupts the child's development even moreso, secondly there is a high demand for foster paretns anyway (at least in some areas) and finally it's an expensive and drawn out process for everyone involved.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 19:37   #28
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

i think that dante has about hit the nail on the head there
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 19:50   #29
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Phang : Obviously the parents have some sort of role to play, but I think it's fair to say that the parents are either incapable or unwilling to enforce those kind of morals. It may be they need significant support (which is fair enough) but taking their children into care will probably not resolve matters particularly. For one it will disrupts the child's development even moreso, secondly there is a high demand for foster paretns anyway (at least in some areas) and finally it's an expensive and drawn out process for everyone involved.
you misunderstand me. i didn't mean "bad parents mean kid is taken into care", i meant "bad parents mean social services get involved". rereading what i said i can understand why you read it that way though.
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Unread 13 Jun 2005, 09:59   #30
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

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its a pity that these jokes have undermined public confidence in the british legal system, which remains the best in the world.
why do you say that? (just interested here)
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Unread 13 Jun 2005, 18:08   #31
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Re: This thread contains a BBC News Link that most people wont find interesting

Theres a pretty simple solution to children misbehaving.

It all started about 25 years ago when schools stopped using the belt. And then parents started getting into trouble for disciplining their children as they saw fit. Now kids know they can go out, swear, drink , vandalise and cause mayhem, and the worst theyre going to see from their parents is "No pocket money for a week, and youre grounded". Or an ASBO , which lets face it, for a 10yr old doesnt mean shit.

"You cant physically reprimand your children" says the state "If you smack them, youll go to prison" says the state. Exactly how is a parent to discipline a child if theyre not taught in the way they understand from the earliest of ages via physical stimulus.

I cant even say I appreciate it because its brought down the number of child abuse cases. Statistics show it hasnt made the slightest of dents to the number of abused kids, its just seen a jump in the prosecutions of parents.

Well done the nanny state.
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