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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 11:12   #1
G.K Zhukov
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The end of british democracy?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terro...146692,00.html

Discuss!
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 11:39   #2
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Re: The end of british democracy?

For one thing, that's nothing to do with "democracy" per se. For another, linking a news article and saying "Discuss!" does not a good thread make.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 12:32   #3
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Too late sucker - I've written three paragraphs, an hour later, but it's still more worthwhile.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 16:43   #4
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Re: The end of british democracy?

'I shot Democracy'
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 20:04   #5
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Re: The end of british democracy?

If and when democracy meets its ultimate demise it will come from the left and not from the right. Discuss
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 21:41   #6
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
'I shot Democracy'
But I didn't shoot Freedom of Speech?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 14:19   #7
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Whilst there may very well be a real threat to democracy by using these powers, they are quite right to do so, this is a perfect example of how and when martial power has been implemented in a way that is both preventative and policing.

This is to say, it has been used to find terrorist, which none can say do not exist, after the atrocities that have been caused by such terror groups. The government is well within its right to make sure, that the safety of the travelers, in airport, the police officers, and the protesters themselves. They do this by making sure that no hidden weapons, be them conventional weapons, such as an axe, or chainsaw - very conventional, is hidden in the crowd and additionally unconventional such as a bomb.

The searches are an extreme part of our lives now, but they are a necessary evil in these circumstances, better a few people gathering and being searched than a few people gathering and bloodshed.

On the other hand the power is being used in a most inappropriate way, but for the greater good, and as we all know the greater good is just that.

Needless to say that it is the terrorists themselves that have caused the death, if at all, of democracy, not the government.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 14:22   #8
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
On the other hand the power is being used in a most inappropriate way, but for the greater good, and as we all know the greater good is just that.
Oh, I must have missed that meeting.

Quote:
Needless to say that it is the terrorists themselves that have caused the death, if at all, of democracy, not the government.
And it seems I missed Osama (Recycling) Bin Laden introducing that bill into The House of Commons.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 14:30   #9
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Re: The end of british democracy?

You feel that it is appropriate for a large group of people to get together in protest, and not be protected?

Im afraid to say your not at many meetings...

We are using the powers defensively, and taking the initiative here, needless to say i doubt you would not hesitate to thank the government, had the found a terrorist with a big bomb attached to him that would have killed everyone there, and when we stop taking these matters seriously, such as relaxing the tight grip on security that will lead to ever more chances for death and destruction.

I like to have my rights as much as anyone else, but even i see the need for such measures.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 14:38   #10
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
You feel that it is appropriate for a large group of people to get together in protest, and not be protected?
I feel it is inappropriate for people who have neither committed a crime or been charged with one to be locked up for upto 28 days on the governments whim.

This is as much about protecting the protestors as the Iraq War was about bring democracy to Iraq, i.e. not at all, though I think you might question that.

Quote:
We are using the powers defensively,
Who are 'We'? And why do you think that includes you?

Quote:
and taking the initiative here, needless to say i doubt you would not hesitate to thank the government, had the found a terrorist with a big bomb attached to him that would have killed everyone there, and when we stop taking these matters seriously, such as relaxing the tight grip on security that will lead to ever more chances for death and destruction.
Why don't we just give up all of our rights and live in a Police State? We won't have any freedom but at least we'll all be safe.

Quote:
I like to have my rights as much as anyone else, but even i see the need for such measures.
I fear that most people don't value their rights at all, and in that regard I believe that you do give them the same value.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 14:43   #11
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Not meaning to overdramatize, but during World War 2 we killed around 51,000,000 people for freedom and democracy. Now they're taking it away from us because terrorists killed.. how many people exactly?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 15:43   #12
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I feel it is inappropriate for people who have neither committed a crime or been charged with one to be locked up for upto 28 days on the governments whim.
Whilst i disagree that they have not committed crimes, it is alleged they have committed no crimes, how can you be sure till they have been checked out?

I agree, on whims, but there are legal issues here that are just as relevant to stopping this, and it at least i believe that there is merit, though i can agree there are indeed many cases where corruption has been the downside of this, and thats what we must be vigilant against if the system is to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
This is as much about protecting the protestors as the Iraq War was about bring democracy to Iraq, i.e. not at all, though I think you might question that.
I don't question that, i am in agreement on this subject I personally feel that the only reason the British government was involved at all, was down to showing where its loyalties lay, and a bit of brow beating by America.

I have no doubt that there was a selfish agenda on the cards for both governments in this matter, but this is politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why don't we
i think the matter speaks for itself :

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Who are 'We'? And why do you think that includes you?
You are aligning yourself on a particular side, and as such are becoming part of a group which can be referred to as 'We' i too am doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why don't we just give up all of our rights and live in a Police State? We won't have any freedom but at least we'll all be safe.
This is an extreme version of events, and is no where near happening atm, we do have choices and freedoms, and I myself, based on geography, am involved in even more struggles with government, ie Scottish independence, and the fact that i don't want it.

There are many many valid viewpoints to this argument, i am giving you mine, and attacking my views is not a method which will make them any less valid, i did not say that We want to remove all rights and move to some, as of yet, non existent dictatorship led future -

I believe that taking control and key government figures are what is needed in this country, Britain, and nothing less will be of any good.

Simply stated:

"Evil prevails when good men do nothing."

Funnily enough you may see the government elected by the people, evil, and that you yourself are indeed good. But then, EVERYTHING is based on perception.

Last edited by bradleykins; 14 Aug 2007 at 15:51.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 15:48   #13
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Not meaning to overdramatize, but during World War 2 we killed around 51,000,000 people for freedom and democracy. Now they're taking it away from us because terrorists killed.. how many people exactly?

This is not necessarily a removal of rights, or an infringement on them, but merely can be seen as an extension of them, why must I not be able to be safe, why must I live in fear?

These are my rights, and by the mere fact that some people who could, or could not be dangerous, being allowed to roam freely in regards to stop and search, then that is an infringement on me is it not?

By doing nothing i have been affected, and so have millions (possibly) of other people by affecting these minority of searches and stopping and holdings, they are protecting the rights of the free people themselves.

I again stress these are perceptions.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:04   #14
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
This is not necessarily a removal of rights, or an infringement on them, but merely can be seen as an extension of them, why must I not be able to be safe, why must I live in fear?
If you a) live in fear of terrorists or b) think that "living without fear" is some kind of right, then there may be something wrong with your thinking-brainways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
I again stress these are perceptions.
Balls off. Some people are afraid of crossing bridges if too many people are on them, that doesn't mean we should legislate based on their irrational beliefs (lol religion lol, as a sidepoint).
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:12   #15
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If you a) live in fear of terrorists or b) think that "living without fear" is some kind of right, then there may be something wrong with your thinking-brainways.
My fears aare as just and correct as anybody elses, and because of that fact the government has made these laws, and that goes a long way in showing that if in fact i have something wrong with my (brainways???) that indeed so too do many other people.

Whilst you may have no fear of terrorism, other people do have their rights too, and just as you so valiantly cry about your own, so too can we wrong brainways people cry.

It is a basic right that no man, or woman, may live without bodily harm coming to them, as such it is a valid point to make that it is just and right to expect that we can live without worrying about it every minute, and tbh and true, it makes me feel much happier, and safe, every step we take towards a more secure country. This includes the crack down on terrorism, for you right brainways...


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Balls off. Some people are afraid of crossing bridges if too many people are on them, that doesn't mean we should legislate based on their irrational beliefs (lol religion lol, as a sidepoint).
Whilst i may agree with you, those people are a minority, my belief is echoed in many more people than that, and as such is demonstrated by the creation of these laws.

Ethics play a large point in this, but it is ethical to stop a bomb before it explodes, and personally as long as only a minority of people are hurt, rights infringed, by doing so as compared to the eventual casualty list then so be it.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:29   #16
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
My fears aare as just and correct as anybody elses, and because of that fact the government has made these laws, and that goes a long way in showing that if in fact i have something wrong with my (brainways???) that indeed so too do many other people.
You do realise that absolute freedoms are largely to protect from the tyranny of the majority, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
It is a basic right that no man, or woman, may live without bodily harm coming to them, as such it is a valid point to make that it is just and right to expect that we can live without worrying about it every minute
Doesn't follow. Lots of people fear them dirty black niggas, but it doesn't mean that we should legislate around that.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:52   #17
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Whilst i disagree that they have not committed crimes, it is alleged they have committed no crimes, how can you be sure till they have been checked out?
Do you realsie the implications of this statement? You have just advocated a Police State where EVERYONE is considered to be guilty of a crime and it is up to them to prove their innocence or go to the gulag.

Innocent until proven guilty if one of the pillars of the legal system and you have just dismissed it out of hand.

Quote:
I agree, on whims, but there are legal issues here that are just as relevant to stopping this, and it at least i believe that there is merit, though i can agree there are indeed many cases where corruption has been the downside of this, and thats what we must be vigilant against if the system is to work.
It is important to grasp the implications of what you are advocating so I shall say it again. You have just advocated a Police State where EVERYONE is considered to be guilty of a crime and it is up to them to prove their innocence or go to the gulag.

How can a system where people can be rounded up and jailed without charge ever 'work'? Even now, Gorden Brown wants to extend the limit to 90 days. In the future someone will wish to extend it further, no doubt. It is the essence of a totalitarian government; to lock up people the leaders consider 'undesirables' and call them 'terrorists.' There are loads of examples where this is the case. To display this point; see how many wars you can find where the invading party were not acting in 'self-defence' of in the 'defence' of those whose country they were bombign to ****.

Quote:
I have no doubt that there was a selfish agenda on the cards for both governments in this matter, but this is politics.
Why should government be any less selfish (i.e. intent on strengthening the power of the state at the expense of the individual) in domestic policy?

Quote:
i think the matter speaks for itself :
Yes it does. By 'We' I meant every single person in the United Kingdom. Who did you mean?

Quote:
This is an extreme version of events, and is no where near happening atm, we do have choices and freedoms, and I myself, based on geography, am involved in even more struggles with government, ie Scottish independence, and the fact that i don't want it.
Do you really think these things happen overnight? They don't. Even if we aren't in a Police State yet, it is not somehow a defence for the UNDENIABLE FACT that the rights of society are being destroyed.

Quote:
attacking my views is not a method which will make them any less valid
I agree with you on that.

Quote:
i did not say that We want to remove all rights and move to some, as of yet, non existent dictatorship led future -
I'll ask this again just in case you miss it the first time around. Who is this 'We' and why do you think you are a part of it?

Quote:
I believe that taking control and key government figures are what is needed in this country, Britain, and nothing less will be of any good.
Taking control of what exactly? Everyones life?

Quote:
Simply stated:

"Evil prevails when good men do nothing."
Well here we agree, except on the definition of 'Evil.'

Quote:
Funnily enough you may see the government elected by the people, evil, and that you yourself are indeed good. But then, EVERYTHING is based on perception.
I see the erosion of human freedoms as evil, I'm not particularly concerned with who is donig it. And what does being 'elected by the people' have to do with anything?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 17:06   #18
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Allow me to paste something for the population of GD to ponder over!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
(I say GD, I mean bradleykins)
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 17:08   #19
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
This is not necessarily a removal of rights, or an infringement on them, but merely can be seen as an extension of them, why must I not be able to be safe, why must I live in fear?

These are my rights, and by the mere fact that some people who could, or could not be dangerous, being allowed to roam freely in regards to stop and search, then that is an infringement on me is it not?

By doing nothing i have been affected, and so have millions (possibly) of other people by affecting these minority of searches and stopping and holdings, they are protecting the rights of the free people themselves.

I again stress these are perceptions.
Why is your right to hold an illogical fear more important than someone elses right not to be stopped and searched in the middle of the street and then imprisoned for 28 days for literally no reason?

Just as a bit of social research, could I asked you to give a bit of detail on your ethnicity and roughly whereabouts in Scotland you live?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:28   #20
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Re: The end of british democracy?

There really are no advocates for me?

Sheesh, scary thought.

i mean we as a global we those who are of my viewpoint, much as you mean everyone including me???

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Doesn't follow. Lots of people fear them dirty black niggas, but it doesn't mean that we should legislate around that.
Seeing as racism is a crime, still, i wouldn't bet that any legislation comes to being based on it, i fear terrorism, and that is not a crime.

Mz:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
security of person, that is an emphasis of my point, as is the fact that torture, (dictionary.reference.com/browse/torture) 7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind, is itself prohibited by another aspect of the declaration, and i myself feel extreme mental anguish when terrorized,([dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorise) 3. to produce widespread fear by acts of violence, as bombings, and as such the government by introducing these acts are defending my human rights.

I myself will be subject to these exact same laws that 'infringe' on my rights, and i see the logical and undeniable reasons behind them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Do you realsie the implications of this statement? You have just advocated a Police State where EVERYONE is considered to be guilty of a crime and it is up to them to prove their innocence or go to the gulag.

Innocent until proven guilty if one of the pillars of the legal system and you have just dismissed it out of hand.
I do not advocate a police state, not as you see it.

I am merely operating on what i feel would be a much more safe environment,
we have to impose these laws based on the actions of a minority. In this much we are defending ourselves, and we do not torture, and undeniably WE ARE NOT YET in a police state, and insofar as we can never truly tell the future we don't know where the current affairs such as these terror laws will lead us.

Though i do take your arguments of historic examples of abused power, we may not end there, you cant say for sure.

Additionally, as the rights of millions are at stake based on these arguments, may i point out that these powers are in place to protect people such as yourselves? and the people you love?

Why would you consider a move towards increased security a bad one?

Until we can positively identify bad people based on sight, we must take measures to protect ourselves from them, that is why the law exists, and the laws are created and passed by a minority selected by us.

Us, to clarify, is the entire nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
How can a system where people can be rounded up and jailed without charge
The are not rounded up as you suggest, there is detailed call for such actions, and they have, so far, only been used correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
the UNDENIABLE FACT that the rights of society are being destroyed
I personally can't see this, i see the UNDENIABLE FACT that my rights are being preserved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Taking control of what exactly? Everyones life?
No, of course not, taking control of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I see the erosion of human freedoms as evil, I'm not particularly concerned with who is donig it. And what does being 'elected by the people' have to do with anything?
You have the right to run for politics, and a right to attempt and share your viewpoint with the world, instead you argue on the internet regarding the 'evil'ness of the government, what action did you take to stop these evil acts? or is bandying words all you are prepared to do?

In your world you can take this the wrong way and go on a rampage killing people to get your message across, but don't worry the government cant make sure you don't do that, you made sure of it by demolishing protection of the innocent and replacing it with the protection of evil.


Its this much that leads me to trust the people that have been selected by the nation to lead us.

I would rather trust them, than a group of people there to demonstrate against something that benefits all of society.

Last edited by bradleykins; 14 Aug 2007 at 18:38.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:34   #21
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why is your right to hold an illogical fear more important than someone elses right not to be stopped and searched in the middle of the street and then imprisoned for 28 days for literally no reason?

Just as a bit of social research, could I asked you to give a bit of detail on your ethnicity and roughly whereabouts in Scotland you live?
Why is my fear illogical?

Why is it unscientifically correct to feel fear of something that has happened, and been threatened against me and my family?

I don't consider it illogical to fear that which is proven is on my doorstep.

May i point out, that you admit to sacrificing my rights in favor of someone else?

what makes you any better than those that are supporting this power.

I need not tell you any details about myself, however i live in central Scotland, i am white and i am studied to a university standard, i was born in Scotland, I have been abroad, i have many ethnic friends of varying back grounds, and i completely agree with the terror laws.

[edit] Tho may i point out, this does not in anyway affect the views or arguments i have put forward, and will only lead to your discrimination of me based on those details, regardless of my ethnicity my views are true.[/edit]
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:40   #22
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Seeing as racism is a crime

No it's not.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:40   #23
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Re: The end of british democracy?

i am glad to see that i chose the right side to advocate, as there is certainly no one else prepared to argue this case, and plenty of you to argue against it.

I am enjoying this debate.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:44   #24
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No it's not.

???

good argument.

Race Relations Act 1976

check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cre.gov.uk/
You have the right not to be discriminated against on racial grounds.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:47   #25
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
i am glad to see that i chose the right side to advocate, as there is certainly no one else prepared to argue this case, and plenty of you to argue against it.

I am enjoying this debate.
Actually, I'd call it the wrong side to advocate since you're....wrong.


By the way, when you say that we don't torture or round up people....Guantanamo.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:48   #26
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Seeing as racism is a crime, still, i wouldn't bet that any legislation comes to being based on it, i fear terrorism, and that is not a crime.
Racism isn't a crime any more than "being scared of terrorists" is. If you go and attack a black guy it's a crime, but then it's also a crime if you go and attack someone you think is a terrorist.

In any case, as we're talking about making or repealing laws it seems somewhat surreal to be basing the debate on what is legal and illegal. Holding someone for 90 days without charge was illegal 7 years ago, does that invalidate your position?

You also have ignored the first part of my reply to you, which I find particularly amusing as most of the rest of your post commits exactly the same error as I was pointing out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
???

good argument.

Race Relations Act 1976

check it out.
It's illegal to kill someone with a tennis racket, that doesn't make tennis rackets illegal. The discrimination is the relevent part, otherwise the Daily Mail would be in enormous amounts of trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
I am enjoying this debate.
It's not much of a debate, it's you using logical fallacies to string out an argument that was old when the American constitution was new.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 14 Aug 2007 at 19:00.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:51   #27
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Actually, I'd call it the wrong side to advocate since you're....wrong.


By the way, when you say that we don't torture or round up people....Guantanamo.

Guantanamo is U.S. Government, not what i am advocating, which is the british democracy, so...

Your wrong.

but hey i dont read topics of threads either...
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:53   #28
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No it's not.

???

good argument.

Race Relations Act 1976

check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cre.gov.uk/
You have the right not to be discriminated against on racial grounds.
Discrimination is different from racism. What is covered? It include sdiscrimination on the grounds of race, colour, nationality, ethnic and national origin in the fields of employment, the provision of goods and services, education and public functions.


I see no 1984-style thought police.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:55   #29
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Guantanamo is U.S. Government, not what i am advocating, which is the british democracy, so...

Your wrong.

but hey i dont read topics of threads either...
We have counternanced the USA's use of Guantanamo for the last six years, there comes a point when you're an accessory to another's actions. That point has been reached.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:03   #30
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Mz:
security of person, that is an emphasis of my point, as is the fact that torture, (dictionary.reference.com/browse/torture) 7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind, is itself prohibited by another aspect of the declaration, and i myself feel extreme mental anguish when terrorized,([dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorise) 3. to produce widespread fear by acts of violence, as bombings, and as such the government by introducing these acts are defending my human rights.

I myself will be subject to these exact same laws that 'infringe' on my rights, and i see the logical and undeniable reasons behind them.
You're misinterpreting the word 'torture' as it's used in the document. You then proceed to base your entire argument around it, which makes it incorrect as a whole. You're also lying by omission, as definition 7 has "My back is torturing me." as example, while definition 3 does not even appear on that page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations
The document is mostly about protecting people from their governments, not protecting people from other people. In that light, torture is nothing but (mental and physical) violence against prisoners perpetrated by institutions of a government or parts thereof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that 'life', 'liberty' and 'security of person' are displayed side by side, signifying a sense of equality. This in turn implies that taking away one in favour of one or both of the others would be at best a very strange thing to do, and at worst a wilful act of dismantling one or more basic human rights. And isn't it interesting that that's exactly what "the terrorists" are doing?

And finally, allow me to summarise our position with yet another quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
Those who would forsake essential liberty for a little added security deserve neither liberty nor security.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:04   #31
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Racism isn't a crime any more than "being scared of terrorists" is. If you go and attack a black guy it's a crime, but then it's also a crime if you go and attack someone you think is a terrorist.
I dont see a point here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Key part of this being #2, as a racist you must, without fail be discriminatory towards other people, acting upon that discrimination is a crime, i apologise for not more thoroughly clearing that subject up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
In any case, as we're talking about making or repealing laws it seems somewhat surreal to be basing the debate on what is legal and illegal in any case. Holding someone for 90 days without charge was illegal 7 years ago, does that invalidate your position?
I am not, atm, advocating holding someone for 90 days without charge...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You also have ignored the first part of my reply to you, which I find particularly amusing as most of the rest of your post commits exactly the same error as I was pointing out.
I see your argument, and i myself fail to come up with a response to it, i know that a bill of rights is used to protect against that, but by not creating these terror laws, that too would be seen as Tyranny of the majority, would it not? that the protection is withheld from those that are not in the majority?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's illegal to kill someone with a tennis racket, that doesn't make tennis rackets illegal.
Again i fail to see you point, your basing a law upon a weapon used? no the law itself identifies the killing as the unlawful part, not the use of a tennis racket, though arguable im sure whatever you use to kill someone would be equally wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's not much of a debate, it's you using logical fallacies to string out an argument that was old when the American constitution was new.
I fail to see why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

de·bate /dɪˈbeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-beyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing.
–noun
1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
3. deliberation; consideration.
4. Archaic. strife; contention.
–verb (used without object)
5. to engage in argument or discussion, as in a legislative or public assembly: When we left, the men were still debating.
6. to participate in a formal debate.
7. to deliberate; consider: I debated with myself whether to tell them the truth or not.
8. Obsolete. to fight; quarrel.
–verb (used with object)
9. to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.
10. to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.
11. to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton.
12. to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter.
13. Archaic. to contend for or over.
[Origin: 1250–1300; (v.) ME debaten < OF debatre, equiv. to de- de- + batre to beat < L battere, earlier battuere; (n.) ME debat < OF, deriv. of debatre]
Opposing viewpoints?

Or do i need to get the definition of that out too.

Last edited by bradleykins; 14 Aug 2007 at 19:25.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:05   #32
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
We have counternanced the USA's use of Guantanamo for the last six years, there comes a point when you're an accessory to another's actions. That point has been reached.
Guilty by association?

Indeed...
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:15   #33
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Firstly i would like to say i really like your post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You're misinterpreting the word 'torture' as it's used in the document. You then proceed to base your entire argument around it, which makes it incorrect as a whole. You're also lying by omission, as definition 7 has "My back is torturing me." as example, while definition 3 does not even appear on that page.
Your assuming my interpretation of torture is incorrect, i presume yours is. I did not intend to leave you without evidence when i posted my dictionary notes, hence why i provided the url, but my point remains torture can be moth mental and physical, that illustrates my point, when i have not been physically effected by the terror, but mentally.

As for definition three, it has a separate url, if you would please pay attention, and is a definition of terrorise. the two are linked but not the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The document is mostly about protecting people from their governments, not protecting people from other people. In that light, torture is nothing but (mental and physical) violence against prisoners perpetrated by institutions of a government or parts thereof.
Again this is your interpretation of the document, and not necessarily what must be the correct view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Furthermore, I would like to point out that 'life', 'liberty' and 'security of person' are displayed side by side, signifying a sense of equality. This in turn implies that taking away one in favour of one or both of the others would be at best a very strange thing to do, and at worst a wilful act of dismantling one or more basic human rights. And isn't it interesting that that's exactly what "the terrorists" are doing?
I don't quite understand what you are saying, are you implying that any of those three parts of a basic right are no more important than the other?

is that all your implying?

I merely point out one of those aspects is affected. I don't get where your argument is in that.

[edit] I loved the summary, but can i point out the statement was intended on a little added security, not the amount which is provided by these new laws? i can still see the point tho[/edit]
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:17   #34
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
I dont see a point here.
Just assume what you said was wrong, and you'll probably go far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Key part of this being #2, as a racist you must, without ail be discriminatory towards other people, acting upon that discrimination is a crime, i apologise for not more thoroughly clearing that subject up.
I find it amusing that you don't know how a dictionary works, yet quote one continuously. Those are alternative definitions, you know, not cumulative ones. So yes, by #1 you can be a racist but not act on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
I am not, atm, advocating holding someone for 90 days without charge...
"Whilst there may very well be a real threat to democracy by using these powers, they are quite right to do so, this is a perfect example of how and when martial power has been implemented in a way that is both preventative and policing."

You were at the start of the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
The majority protected from the minority you mean?


you fail to see my reply?

much in the same way as i have expressed that the minority of terrorists that do fully and unlawfully attack innocent people, that is the majority.

By your definition, these terror laws are an absolute freedom?
I read this and I read this and I have absolutely no ****ing clue what you're trying to say. Please rephrase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Again i fail to see you point, your basing a law upon a weapon used? no the law itself identifies the killing as the unlawful part, not the use of a tennis racket, though arguable im sure whatever you use to kill someone would be equally wrong.
So you agree with me then

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
I fail to see why not?
I have two options here. The first is to give you a brief course in English rhetoric. Sarcasm, litotes, metaphor, flippancy, bathos, pathos, and other such devices would be covered, in order to help you understand the posts you are making an attempt to reply to. The second is to call you a stupid faggot. I shall leave it to your imagination which is the route that, were the two options binding, I would have taken.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:18   #35
All Systems Go
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
I do not advocate a police state, not as you see it.

I am merely operating on what i feel would be a much more safe environment,
we have to impose these laws based on the actions of a minority.
Why do we have to impose these laws? The UK was under threats of terrorism for decades before these laws. Such laws tend to persecute minorities and such persecution can incrse the risk of terrorist attacks.

To keep things in perspective, these laws are being used against people protesting the expansion of an airport.

Quote:
In this much we are defending ourselves
That's what they all say.

Quote:
and we do not torture
Debatable.

Quote:
and undeniably WE ARE NOT YET in a police state,
Debatable. Even if you are correct, there has been an undeniable sldie towards such a situation.

Quote:
and insofar as we can never truly tell the future we don't know where the current affairs such as these terror laws will lead us.
All we can do is look to the past. And shudder.

Quote:
Though i do take your arguments of historic examples of abused power, we may not end there, you cant say for sure.
You've already accepted the modern government lies, kills and tortures for its own purposes, is it so unlikely that they'll do it here?

Quote:
Additionally, as the rights of millions are at stake based on these arguments, may i point out that these powers are in place to protect people such as yourselves? and the people you love?
Seeing as you have advocated limiting the rights of every signle individual in the country you are, by definition correct. But if you're trying to suggest that millions of people are on the verge of dying as the result of a terrorist attack I would asy you're wwwaaaaaaaayy off.

Appealing to emotion is not a good argument. No, wait. It's not an argument at all.

Quote:
Why would you consider a move towards increased security a bad one?
I don't really see this as a move towards security when the state is allowed to place itself in a position to use force and illegal detentions to protect its own interests.

When Putin passes these laws they're because he's a criminal. When it happens in our country it's 'legitimate.'

Quote:
Until we can positively identify bad people based on sight, we must take measures to protect ourselves from them, that is why the law exists, and the laws are created and passed by a minority selected by us.
So that makes all laws good? People must be protected from terrorism, but they must also be protected from the potentially far more serious threat of crimes committed by the state.

That you feel the government actually represents you as an individual is rather sweet, but naive.

Quote:
Us, to clarify, is the entire nation.
You keep on beliving that.

Quote:
The are not rounded up as you suggest, there is detailed call for such actions, and they have, so far, only been used correctly.
Wrong.

Quote:
I personally can't see this, i see the UNDENIABLE FACT that my rights are being preserved.
Take a look at some of the legislation passed. It's all pretty restrictive. Just because you don't feel it every moment doesn't mean it's not happening.

Quote:
No, of course not, taking control of the situation.
By limiting the rights of the individual?

Quote:
You have the right to run for politics, and a right to attempt and share your viewpoint with the world, instead you argue on the internet regarding the 'evil'ness of the government, what action did you take to stop these evil acts? or is bandying words all you are prepared to do?
Say I did run for parliament and won a seat at the Hosue of Commons. What then? What actual power would I have to change anything? If I was advocating radical reform of the entire political system in the country, I would get no coverage in the mass media. The only exceptions being when they want a looney to entertain the masses and be publically derided and called an idiot on national TV.

Quote:
In your world you can take this the wrong way and go on a rampage killing people to get your message across, but don't worry the government cant make sure you don't do that, you made sure of it by demolishing protection of the innocent and replacing it with the protection of evil.
Unlsess they randomly stop in the street for no reason as I inconspicuouly make my way to the killing fields.... Oh wait, I see what you did there!

How is protecting people who have done nothing wrong protecting evil?

Quote:
Its this much that leads me to trust the people that have been selected by the nation to lead us.
lol. Trust in politicians. lol

Quote:
I would rather trust them, than a group of people there to demonstrate against something that benefits all of society.
I'm not saying it was your fault
Although you could have done more

Oh you're so naive yet so

How could this be done
Your such a smiling sweetheart
Oh and your sweet and pretty face
In such an ugly way
Something so beautiful
That everytime I look inside

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

I may say it was your fault
Cause I know you could have done more

Oh you're so naive yet so

How could this be done
By such a smiling sweetheart
Oh and your sweet and pretty face
In such an ugly way something so beautiful
Everytime I look inside

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

How could this be done
By such a smiling sweetheart

Oh you're so naive yet so

Such an ugly thing
Someone so beautiful
And everytime you're on his side

I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it maybe be she's still out to get me

And I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it maybe be she's still out to get me

Just don't let me down
Just don't let me down
Hold on to your kite
Just don't let me down
Just don't let me down
Hold on to your kite
Just don't let me down
Just don't let me down
Hold on to this kite
Just don't let me down
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:29   #36
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Why is my fear illogical?

Why is it unscientifically correct to feel fear of something that has happened, and been threatened against me and my family?
Because the actual likelihood killing anyone you know being so remote. Since 2002 and the 'Rules of the Game changed' 52 people have died in terrorist attacks. As Dante pointed out earlier you are far more likely to die in a car crash or one of a million other things. But a 'War on Drivers' doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Quote:
I don't consider it illogical to fear that which is proven is on my doorstep.
Being aware of a danger and being so disproportionally terrified of said event are two different things. There is a great hysteria about paedophilia but the odds of your child being taken are negligable. But tyhe fear itself is causing children more harm by parents not allowing them to go very far and play and socially interect and the such.

Quote:
May i point out, that you admit to sacrificing my rights in favor of someone else?
I admit that your fear is almost completely based on emotion rather than an accurate study of the available empircal evidence and as a result is essentially worthless. Would you allow a mother whose shild was murdered to produce future laws for dealing with paedohpiles?

Quote:
what makes you any better than those that are supporting this power.
A basic understanding of the political system?*

Quote:
I need not tell you any details about myself, however i live in central Scotland, i am white and i am studied to a university standard, i was born in Scotland, I have been abroad, i have many ethnic friends of varying back grounds, and i completely agree with the terror laws.

[edit] Tho may i point out, this does not in anyway affect the views or arguments i have put forward, and will only lead to your discrimination of me based on those details, regardless of my ethnicity my views are true.[/edit]
Not at all. I shall in no way discriminate against you because of your social background. I shall discriminate and deride your position because it is wrong.

*argumentum ad verecundiam ftw!
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:41   #37
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why do we have to impose these laws? The UK was under threats of terrorism for decades before these laws. Such laws tend to persecute minorities and such persecution can incrse the risk of terrorist attacks.
And there will always be the threat of terrorism, what we can do to prevent it is being done, yet you believe that ignoring that will be the best course of action? it aint gone away so far has it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
To keep things in perspective, these laws are being used against people protesting the expansion of an airport.
As mentioned they were searching for individuals who sought to demonstate by use of violence and terror.


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
That's what they all say.
And they are always lying?



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Debatable.
Debate it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Debatable. Even if you are correct, there has been an undeniable sldie towards such a situation.
debate it, and i may have to agree there is a considerable increased move towards a police state.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
All we can do is look to the past. And shudder.
you refuse to acknowledge all the things that have been achieved?



[quote=All Systems Go]You've already accepted the modern government lies, kills and tortures for its own purposes, is it so unlikely that they'll do it here?[quote] correction i have seen that prior governments lie, books covers etc, you cant tell till its done.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Seeing as you have advocated limiting the rights of every signle individual in the country you are, by definition correct. But if you're trying to suggest that millions of people are on the verge of dying as the result of a terrorist attack I would asy you're wwwaaaaaaaayy off.
your pen pals with them, know they only intend to pop a couple of people here and there? How do you know that isn't a possible threat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Appealing to emotion is not a good argument. No, wait. It's not an argument at all.
what about appealing to someones humanity? you feel these people you have never met deserve to have more liberty than you? Me?



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I don't really see this as a move towards security when the state is allowed to place itself in a position to use force and illegal detentions to protect its own interests.

When Putin passes these laws they're because he's a criminal. When it happens in our country it's 'legitimate.'
again future is unpredictable, you dont definitly know that anything will happen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
So that makes all laws good? People must be protected from terrorism, but they must also be protected from the potentially far more serious threat of crimes committed by the state.
i agree, there must be a degree of protection, how do you propose we do that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
That you feel the government actually represents you as an individual is rather sweet, but naive.
i dont, but i fail to see why that gives my arguements any less merit.




Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
You keep on beliving that.
i shall.




Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Wrong.
examples? evidence?




[quote=All Systems Go]Take a look at some of the legislation passed. It's all pretty restrictive. Just because you don't feel it every moment doesn't mean it's not happening.[quote] agreed, i see the restrictions, and acknowledge why they are needed.




Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
By limiting the rights of the individual?
for the benefit of the majority.




Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Say I did run for parliament and won a seat at the Hosue of Commons. What then? What actual power would I have to change anything? If I was advocating radical reform of the entire political system in the country, I would get no coverage in the mass media. The only exceptions being when they want a looney to entertain the masses and be publically derided and called an idiot on national TV.
You admit your a loon? not a great argument already... say you did, then the majority which is in agreement with you, would no doubt back you. If not, perhaps your argument is incorrect?





Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Unlsess they randomly stop in the street for no reason as I inconspicuouly make my way to the killing fields.... Oh wait, I see what you did there!
lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
How is protecting people who have done nothing wrong protecting evil?
your assuming they have done nothing wrong.




[quote=All Systems Go]lol. Trust in politicians. lol[quote] better them than you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I'm not saying it was your fault
Although you could have done more

Oh you're so naive yet so

How could this be done
Your such a smiling sweetheart
Oh and your sweet and pretty face
In such an ugly way
Something so beautiful
That everytime I look inside

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

I may say it was your fault
Cause I know you could have done more

Oh you're so naive yet so

How could this be done
By such a smiling sweetheart
Oh and your sweet and pretty face
In such an ugly way something so beautiful
Everytime I look inside

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

I know that she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it may be
She's still out to get me

How could this be done
By such a smiling sweetheart

Oh you're so naive yet so

Such an ugly thing
Someone so beautiful
And everytime you're on his side

I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it maybe be she's still out to get me

And I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking
True or false it maybe be she's still out to get me

Just don't let me down
Just don't let me down
Hold on to your kite
Just don't let me down
Just don't let me down
Hold on to your kite
Just don't let me down
Just don't let me down
Hold on to this kite
Just don't let me down
Eh?

no idea what this is.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:54   #38
bradleykins
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Re: The end of british democracy?

To qualify as an authority, the individual must be generally recognized by peers in the same field when the peers hold a similar view. As of yet, you are not ad verecundiam, unless there is something i am unaware of. Even if you argue that your a better known person in this community that IS Argumentum ad Populum...

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Because the actual likelihood killing anyone you know being so remote. Since 2002 and the 'Rules of the Game changed' 52 people have died in terrorist attacks. As Dante pointed out earlier you are far more likely to die in a car crash or one of a million other things. But a 'War on Drivers' doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
additionally you may note that there is not an intent on murder, or terror with drivers, if there is though that would be under the war on terror heading.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Being aware of a danger and being so disproportionally terrified of said event are two different things. There is a great hysteria about paedophilia but the odds of your child being taken are negligable. But tyhe fear itself is causing children more harm by parents not allowing them to go very far and play and socially interect and the such.
Pedophilia is indeed something that is feared, it is also something that is currently also being policed, would you too argue that it is improper to find out about pedophiles before the fact?





Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I admit that your fear is almost completely based on emotion rather than an accurate study of the available empircal evidence and as a result is essentially worthless. Would you allow a mother whose shild was murdered to produce future laws for dealing with paedohpiles?
who is to say that mother Will be biased? It is in your opinion that my fear is irrational.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
A basic understanding of the political system?*
See my noted ad Popula argument.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Not at all. I shall in no way discriminate against you because of your social background. I shall discriminate and deride your position because it is wrong.
in your opinion, or is it correct that you will not even remotely consider my argument? based on the fact you don't agree with it, you automatically assume i am wrong?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:56   #39
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
To qualify as an authority, the individual must be generally recognized by peers in the same field when the peers hold a similar view. As of yet, you are not ad verecundiam, unless there is something i am unaware of. Even if you argue that your a better known person in this community that IS Argumentum ad Populum...
Aren't you precious ^_^_^_^
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:59   #40
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Re: The end of british democracy?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Aren't you precious ^_^_^_^
I like to think so
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:15   #41
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Re: The end of british democracy?

whose troll account is bradleykins? and if I scan up how many of you has he made a fool of so far in this thread?

EDIT - i'm guessing horn given this is pretty amature trolling. my god people - look at yourselves!
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:21   #42
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
whose troll account is bradleykins? and if I scan up how many of you has he made a fool of so far in this thread?

EDIT - i'm guessing horn given this is pretty amature trolling. my god people - look at yourselves!
lol i love it tbh

you automatically assume im just here trolling?

some people do actually know me truthfully not very well, just ebcause i rarely participate ont he forums, ie the acc just being signed up, that doesn't make me fake...

Thanks for the warm welcome tho.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:27   #43
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
And there will always be the threat of terrorism, what we can do to prevent it is being done, yet you believe that ignoring that will be the best course of action? it aint gone away so far has it?
Seeing as the death rate of terrorism over the past 5 years is less than 10 per year, I think we're doing pretty well.

Just because something is called and 'anti-terror law' does not automatically make it good nor something that will reduce terrorism.

I also disagree that doing something wildly innappropriate and damaging to the whole country is better then donig nothing.

How about this as a radical suggestion: stop supporting government policies which actively increase the liklihood of terrorism and kill thousands of people?

Quote:
As mentioned they were searching for individuals who sought to demonstate by use of violence and terror.
And Iraq was about WMD.

Even if this is true they are still violating peoples right to free gathering and to protest. That this could easily be used against political opponents is not a good thing.

Quote:
And they are always lying?
Only if they need to say something untrue.

Quote:
Debate it.
Support for Guantanamo Bay? Actively supporting extreme rendition? Sending people to countries where they will probably be tortured as lnog as there is a guarantee that isn't worth anything?

Quote:
debate it, and i may have to agree there is a considerable increased move towards a police state.
We can start with the idea to introduce compulsory biometric ID cards for the whole population. We can look at the absurd bnumber of CCTV cameras in this country. The creation of a DNA databank for people who commit only minor crimes and the implications for future generations.

Plus the streams and streams of legislation to limit peoples rights, increase the power of the state and destroy the British legal system.

Quote:
you refuse to acknowledge all the things that have been achieved?
By giving the state complete control? Yes I do.

Quote:
correction i have seen that prior governments lie, books covers etc, you cant tell till its done.
Umm, this government hasn't lied? Really?

Quote:
your pen pals with them, know they only intend to pop a couple of people here and there? How do you know that isn't a possible threat?
What they would like to do and what they are capable of doing are two entirely different things. What evidence do you have to suggest that they are capable of killing millions of people?

Quote:
what about appealing to someones humanity? you feel these people you have never met deserve to have more liberty than you? Me?
These people are you and me. These are people who have done nothing wrong, we are also a victim of these laws as much as anyone else is.

Quote:
again future is unpredictable, you dont definitly know that anything will happen.
Using that logic, you don't know there will be another terrorist attack.

Given the past and the abuse of power by governments, the benefit of the doubt seems to have zero foundations on which to support itself.

Quote:
i agree, there must be a degree of protection, how do you propose we do that?
Stop being shit? Stop giving people reasons to plot terrorist attacks?

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i dont, but i fail to see why that gives my arguements any less merit.
Quote:
examples? evidence?
There's examples in the link in the other thread about this.

Quote:
agreed, i see the restrictions, and acknowledge why they are needed.
I say they're not needed and the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate they actually prevent terrorist attacks, rather than raising the risk of individual as well as state terrorism.

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for the benefit of the majority.
'We have to control them because only we know what's good for them.'


Quote:
You admit your a loon? not a great argument already... say you did, then the majority which is in agreement with you, would no doubt back you. If not, perhaps your argument is incorrect?
I'm saying that points of view which are against the status quo are routinely ignored and only really used when the press which to deride said ideas.

Quote:
your assuming they have done nothing wrong.
Innocent until proven guilty. I am such a loon!


Quote:
better them than you.
Better dead than smeg.

Quote:
Eh?

no idea what this is.
It's a cultural reference my dear.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:55   #44
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Seeing as the death rate of terrorism over the past 5 years is less than 10 per year, I think we're doing pretty well.
are you presuming that there is no threat then and ignorance is bliss, that we can ignore the threat because its minor? those people that do die because of it dont mat6ter as much as the people being searched?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Just because something is called and 'anti-terror law' does not automatically make it good nor something that will reduce terrorism.
and just because the government has the power to abuse this does not mean they will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I also disagree that doing something wildly innappropriate and damaging to the whole country is better then donig nothing.
instead doing nothing which could possibly lead to increased deaths, by not policing the threat, is a better option?


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
How about this as a radical suggestion: stop supporting government policies which actively increase the liklihood of terrorism and kill thousands of people?
You assume that this increases terrorism, i say otherwise. Your burden to prove



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
And Iraq was about WMD.
just because they didnt find any doesn't mean they weren't really looking..

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Even if this is true they are still violating peoples right to free gathering and to protest. That this could easily be used against political opponents is not a good thing.
Would you use it against someone else in an opposing political party? Why do you presume they would?



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Only if they need to say something untrue.
who says they say anything untrue then, your burden to prove.


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We can start with the idea to introduce compulsory biometric ID cards for the whole population. We can look at the absurd bnumber of CCTV cameras in this country. The creation of a DNA databank for people who commit only minor crimes and the implications for future generations.
increased security you mean? the policing of crimes? im sorry i dont see why you automatically assume this is bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Plus the streams and streams of legislation to limit peoples rights, increase the power of the state and destroy the British legal system.
i say its not destroying the british legal system, your burden to prove.


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Umm, this government hasn't lied? Really?
thats not what i said, clearly and may i point out that lying isnt always a bad thing?



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
What they would like to do and what they are capable of doing are two entirely different things. What evidence do you have to suggest that they are capable of killing millions of people?
What evidence do you have that they dont? Say the can't Why not make sure they can't by stopping them now?


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
These people are you and me. These are people who have done nothing wrong, we are also a victim of these laws as much as anyone else is.
i said this already, well picked up on. I am pro the laws regardless.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Using that logic, you don't know there will be another terrorist attack.
true, safer not to wait for it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Stop being shit? Stop giving people reasons to plot terrorist attacks?
so i have done something which has caused me to be targeted? Tell me what did i do? i deserve to die? is this really the best argument you can come up with?



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I'm saying that points of view which are against the status quo are routinely ignored and only really used when the press which to deride said ideas.
your view point isn't status quo? :/ never.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Innocent until proven guilty. I am such a loon!
glad to know who im dealing with.




Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Better dead than smeg.
great argument.



Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It's a cultural reference my dear.
Well done, you know a song.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 21:30   #45
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
lol i love it tbh

you automatically assume im just here trolling?

some people do actually know me truthfully not very well, just ebcause i rarely participate ont he forums, ie the acc just being signed up, that doesn't make me fake...

Thanks for the warm welcome tho.
I'm sticking with horn.

the rest of us troll better.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 21:38   #46
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
additionally you may note that there is not an intent on murder, or terror with drivers, if there is though that would be under the war on terror heading.
Why are 100 accidental deaths prevented worth less than one intentional death?

Quote:
Pedophilia is indeed something that is feared, it is also something that is currently also being policed, would you too argue that it is improper to find out about pedophiles before the fact?
Do I oppose the police knocking down random doors to see if the home owners are paedophiles? Yes I do.

You do realise that blowing people up was actually illegal before 9/11, right?

Quote:
who is to say that mother Will be biased? It is in your opinion that my fear is irrational.
Way to miss the point. You live in fear of terrorist attack though the liklihood of you dying in one is miniscule. You wish to bring in repressive wars to make you feel safer with any regard for if these laws actually do protect you at all. That is text book irrational.

Quote:
in your opinion, or is it correct that you will not even remotely consider my argument? based on the fact you don't agree with it, you automatically assume i am wrong?
This isn't the first time this argument has been displayed to me. I have seen it, considered it, and found it wanting. I assume you are wrong because you have not provided a good argument in favour of it.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 21:41   #47
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
Your assuming my interpretation of torture is incorrect, i presume yours is. I did not intend to leave you without evidence when i posted my dictionary notes, hence why i provided the url, but my point remains torture can be moth mental and physical, that illustrates my point, when i have not been physically effected by the terror, but mentally.

As for definition three, it has a separate url, if you would please pay attention, and is a definition of terrorise. the two are linked but not the same.

Again this is your interpretation of the document, and not necessarily what must be the correct view.
Easily verifyable though. Read the rest of the document. There's articles in there about education, freedom of speech, slavery, freedom of movement, democracy, education and culture. Hardly things that individuals or non-government organisations are responsible for. From this would follow that the people that signed it did so in name of the government of their respective countries, because they're the only ones that can. And guess what, they did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
I don't quite understand what you are saying, are you implying that any of those three parts of a basic right are no more important than the other?

is that all your implying?

I merely point out one of those aspects is affected. I don't get where your argument is in that.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm implying, in no uncertain terms. In fact, I will even go as far as to say that limiting the freedom of an entire country (for whatever reason!) is just as bad as (if not worse than) being part of an organisation that contributes to the loss of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
[edit] I loved the summary, but can i point out the statement was intended on a little added security, not the amount which is provided by these new laws? i can still see the point tho[/edit]
If I'm understanding this correctly, you're making the statement that these laws provide a significant increase in security. Can you prove this? Did fewer people die since they were introduced? I doubt it, but even if so, what about causality? Can you prove beyond a reasonably doubt that the laws helped?



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Yes guys, he's real.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 22:03   #48
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleykins
are you presuming that there is no threat then and ignorance is bliss, that we can ignore the threat because its minor? those people that do die because of it dont mat6ter as much as the people being searched?
I'm saying there are laws already in place and erstriting freedom for the sake of it is a bad thing.

Quote:
and just because the government has the power to abuse this does not mean they will.
I mean yeah, when has a government ever abused its power?

Quote:
instead doing nothing which could possibly lead to increased deaths, by not policing the threat, is a better option?
Of course, before these new measures people were free to go around blowing things up and killing people as long as they called it 'terrorism' and not 'murder'.


Quote:
You assume that this increases terrorism, i say otherwise. Your burden to prove
My fault here, I should have been clearer. Stop supporting western imperialist policies around the world. Remove the troops form Iraq. Stop supporting brutal dictators.

IF we want to stop global terrorism we should start with stopping our own.

Quote:
just because they didnt find any doesn't mean they weren't really looking..
That's why the UN Weapons Inspectors were there, against US wishes. When they found nothing Iraq was invaded anyway. and the US and UK troops found nothing. They made dodgy dossiers and laughable claims about Saddams weapons which fell apart under even the tiniest bit of scrutiny. They even implied Saddam had something to do with 9/11 even though he is a mortal enemy of Bin Laden.

Quote:
Would you use it against someone else in an opposing political party? Why do you presume they would?
What I would do is irrelevant as I wouldn't do what was necessary to be in such a position to abuse said powers. I never mentioned the opposition party. I was referencing dissidents and those who wish to see a change in the political status quo. For an example, take the old man who was removed from the Labour Party conference for shouting 'Nonsense' at Jack Straw. Was that an abuse of anti-terror laws?

Quote:
who says they say anything untrue then, your burden to prove.
I'll use my Iraq example again.

Quote:
increased security you mean? the policing of crimes? im sorry i dont see why you automatically assume this is bad.
When we're all secure and happy and safe who is going to make sure we're free?

Quote:
i say its not destroying the british legal system, your burden to prove.
The attempts to hold people indefinalty without charge? The presumption of guilty until proven innocent?

Quote:
thats not what i said, clearly and may i point out that lying isnt always a bad thing?
How can you trust someone who may be lying to you? You've already admitted they lie. As an exercise this is getting rather tedious.

Quote:
What evidence do you have that they dont? Say the can't Why not make sure they can't by stopping them now?
What's to say all Arabs are aliens who are just about to send a message to their Galactic Overlord to send spaceships to enslave the entire human race? Better wipe them all out before it's to late!

Quote:
true, safer not to wait for it.
Do you honestly think nothing was being done before these laws?

Quote:
so i have done something which has caused me to be targeted? Tell me what did i do? i deserve to die? is this really the best argument you can come up with?
You support the elected government that is responsible for killing thousands of innocent Iraqis and helping to cause the conditions for a civil war, all of which was predicted before hand and could have been prevented. Not to mention the weapons sold to Saddam in the 1980s during his worst crimes and supporting the sanctions which had a devasting effect on the civilian population whilst strengthenign Saddam. Not supporting regimes like Saudi Arabia. Not supporting extreme violence by Israel against the Palestinian population. Is that reason enough?

Quote:
your view point isn't status quo? :/ never.
My view isn't status quo but neither is it restricting peoples freedoms.

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glad to know who im dealing with.
I'd be quite surprised to find if you actually 'knew' anything at all.

Quote:
great argument.
It takes one to know one.

Quote:
Well done, you know a song.
Which is more than you do. Apparantly.
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Unread 19 Mar 2010, 22:47   #49
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Re: The end of british democracy?

Brand new memeber looks up a 2 1/2 year old thread and bumbs it. An interesting introduction to GD.
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Unread 20 Mar 2010, 00:26   #50
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Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Tomkat has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: The end of british democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov View Post
Cuss dis!
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