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Unread 10 May 2013, 22:30   #1
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Donations

I know there was a previous post touching this topic so I will be short.

Donations were a good idea and have been around in this game since as long as I can remember... However they are now, like almost everything in the game, are being exploited.

I think the game would be better off without any donations. No need for grey areas of whats considered cheating or abuse... just remove it completely.

The concept of donations were to help out a player if they crashed or to help a new player that signed up late in the round.

Now alliances or gals are recruiting vet players who initiate thousands of roids and babysit them. Like the fort gals weren't already strong enough.

Good strategy? yes.
Skill required? none.
Fair to the guys playing since tick 1 fighting to hold onto their hard gotten roids? no
Fair to the alliance members financing other players to do this? no.

Lets put some skill back into planets.
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Unread 11 May 2013, 00:14   #2
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Re: Donations

I, ENDORSE THIS PROPOSAL SINCE THERE SEEMS NO WAY TO CLOSE THIS LOOPHOLE . AND IT ONLY SEEMS FAIR SINCE THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF DONATIONS IS BEING SUBVERTED AND ABUSED


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Unread 11 May 2013, 02:17   #3
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Re: Donations

I like donations, I think they play a valuable part of the game. They allow alliances to help scanners, or members who are having a rough round. They allow galaxies to also help the less fortunate members, and allow late start and covert op planets have a fighting chance at having a competitive round. All of these are viable, legal strategies and it would be extremely disappointing if yet another rule was implemented the decreased the strategic options in the game.

Yes there is a strategy that can be used to give certain players a boost, but it is by no means certain that it gives them the win. Certainly r51's winner didn't get any unfair resource boosts from his alliance.

Yes it is true that planets that get donated too can sometimes sit on roids and not attack much and do well. But this has far more to do with the politics of PA and how defensive the stats are than any unfairness in the donation system.

This thread to me is a solution looking for a problem far more than it is a rule that would have any significant positive impact on the game.
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Unread 11 May 2013, 06:58   #4
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Re: Donations

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
Yes there is a strategy that can be used to give certain players a boost, but it is by no means certain that it gives them the win. Certainly r51's winner didn't get any unfair resource boosts from his alliance.
Keep in mind, organized donations aren't intended to get top planet. They're intended to help get top galaxy.

Other than that, I largely agree with you.
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Unread 11 May 2013, 19:07   #5
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Re: Donations

Donations for "legitimate" purposes serve a useful purpose for but, like many features of PA, they are mainly used to give (what some/most believe to be) unfair advantages to seasoned players, some of whom have failed in their earlier attempts to abuse the exile system and others who wish to share in the "ill gotten gains" of dedicated cov-oppers and/or "bottom feeders" who abuse the system in order to keep their value artificially low and feed the coffers of their alliance/galaxy.

Some players think that these abuses are a demonstration of how clever they are and feel that everyone else can do the same thing so it must be fair. (Clearly this is an untenable argument but...... hey). Others, like the original poster, feel that features which are constantly used (or abused) for purposes other than those for which they are designed (if not actually cheating) should be removed.

There may not be a definitive "right or wrong" here but I'm sure that my own opinion comes through in my comments.

As for donations, the "problem" could possibly be solved by reducing the limits to a small fraction of their current levels (much further than we went the last time we tried it).
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Unread 11 May 2013, 19:56   #6
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Some players think that these abuses are a demonstration of how clever they are and feel that everyone else can do the same thing so it must be fair. (Clearly this is an untenable argument but...... hey).
If it is indeed so clear that it is not fair, what are your reasons for saying so?

All you do in your post is say that some people believe it not to be fair, you don't actually provide any reasoning at all.

Oh, while you are at it, if you can go into exactly what constitutes the "abuse" of the exile system you speak of, that would be good. Examples of it would be good as well.

(I personally think the current donations possible should be toned down a little as it's a very powerful strategy, but this kind of complaint based on imagined superior morality is stupid.)
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Unread 11 May 2013, 22:01   #7
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Re: Donations

I said that the argument was untenable - not the conclusion. However, to answer your question this practice benefits only those active enough to make it worthwhile and those who are "friends" of such people. Those who have no such friends cannot benefit and so it is unfair. Is that clear enough?
And the fact that "some people believe it not to be fair" is indisputable. Facts don't require reasoning to back them up.

As for abuse of the exile system, I'm not sure why you're trying to appear stupid. However, I'll humour you:
Signing up a random account with the intention of exiling as soon as funds or time limits allow until landing in a specific galaxy is an abuse of the exile system. The exile system is supposed to provide a means of escape for planets who find themselves in dead galaxies or to allow galaxies to rid themselves of inactive players. It is not intended to allow the formation of private galaxies to the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. Examples of this abuse can be found in many of the top 10 galaxies every round and in the winning galaxy this round. Evidence can be found in the "Who we were" thread on the Strategic Discussions forum.

[Edit]
Oh, I almost forgot to mention... there's nothing stupid about moral superiority.
Not that I was actually trying to base my (or the original poster's)"complaint" upon it.
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Unread 11 May 2013, 22:33   #8
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I said that the argument was untenable - not the conclusion. However, to answer your question this practice benefits only those active enough to make it worthwhile and those who are "friends" of such people. Those who have no such friends cannot benefit and so it is unfair. Is that clear enough?
And the fact that "some people believe it not to be fair" is indisputable. Facts don't require reasoning to back them up.
There are many things people cannot do in planetarion without friends and/or activity. Obtain defence, for example. That does not make the act of sending or recieving defence an unfair action. So no, not really clear at all.

Quote:
As for abuse of the exile system, I'm not sure why you're trying to appear stupid. However, I'll humour you:
Signing up a random account with the intention of exiling as soon as funds or time limits allow until landing in a specific galaxy is an abuse of the exile system. The exile system is supposed to provide a means of escape for planets who find themselves in dead galaxies or to allow galaxies to rid themselves of inactive players. It is not intended to allow the formation of private galaxies to the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. Examples of this abuse can be found in many of the top 10 galaxies every round and in the winning galaxy this round. Evidence can be found in the "Who we were" thread on the Strategic Discussions forum.
I'd love to see the evidence that says the only intended use of the exile system was to do as you say. I wont, because it doesn't exist anywhere except in your imagination. It is a function in the game to be used by anyone willing to pay the cost. I can understand you not liking the exile system as it stands, but it's not abuse to make use of it.

(Since you point the finger specifically at my galaxy, I wondered about your own record in galaxy exiles given your feeling about its use, and it was interesting to see your own galaxy in which you are a minister exiled more planets into c200 than mine, and that 4 of the 6 subsequently logged in again, so were not inactive. While you may have been vehement in your desire that these planets not be exiled, I doubt it somehow. Interesting.)

Quote:
[Edit]
Oh, I almost forgot to mention... there's nothing stupid about moral superiority.
Not that I was actually trying to base my (or the original poster's)"complaint" upon it.
The language you used certainly indicated you were. Words such as legitimate and abuse make it pretty clear.

Edit: I'm not trying to say these things couldn't benefit from changes, but arguments for doing so should be based on logical reasoning, not poorly veiled accusations of cheating and abuse when no rules have been broken and no bugs exploited.
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Unread 11 May 2013, 23:12   #9
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
As for abuse of the exile system, I'm not sure why you're trying to appear stupid. However, I'll humour you:
Signing up a random account with the intention of exiling as soon as funds or time limits allow until landing in a specific galaxy is an abuse of the exile system. The exile system is supposed to provide a means of escape for planets who find themselves in dead galaxies or to allow galaxies to rid themselves of inactive players. It is not intended to allow the formation of private galaxies to the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. Examples of this abuse can be found in many of the top 10 galaxies every round and in the winning galaxy this round. Evidence can be found in the "Who we were" thread on the Strategic Discussions forum.
I don't find staying small to exile to an active, or specific galaxy out there to be a morally wrong thing to do, as staying small (should) mean(s) there is enough of a downside to the tactic aswell. There are just too many crappy and hostile galaxies out there. What i find appaling is when the destination galaxy plays a part in it by being downright asses to the randoms they start out with, and exiling out anyone that isn't attempting to get in to their galaxy. Rexdrax started out in one of these gals last round, and where i would say he is very valuable addition to any gal in his active rounds, this gal didn't even attempt to get to know him (or even who he was), and even tried to convince their randoms to self-exile as they claimed to be disbanding after pt48 (I don't know why they even tried to claim this, as anyone with more than a round of experience in a half decent alliance should know they could self exile straight away if they really wanted).

I have personally played the exiling game 4-5 rounds to get into the mercenaries galaxy, but noone was ever kicked to make room for me. The rounds it worked we just selected another latestarter, and the rounds it didn't i ended up latestarting.

Quote:
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I'd love to see the evidence that says the only intended use of the exile system was to do as you say. I wont, because it doesn't exist anywhere except in your imagination. It is a function in the game to be used by anyone willing to pay the cost. I can understand you not liking the exile system as it stands, but it's not abuse to make use of it.
Obviously the exiling system wasnt intended to create private galaxies. If it was intended to have the possibility of private galaxies, buddypack sizes would just be bigger. Also, you could argue that the cost of it isn't very high at all (as the endrankings of some of the players involved have consequently been in the top 100 apart from a very few number of rounds where the exiling went on to PT800, like in r50)
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Unread 11 May 2013, 23:16   #10
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Re: Donations

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Obviously the exiling system wasnt intended to create private galaxies. If it was intended to have the possibility of private galaxies, buddypack sizes would just be bigger. Also, you could argue that the cost of it isn't very high at all (as the endrankings of some of the players involved have consequently been in the top 100 apart from a very few number of rounds where the exiling went on to PT800, like in r50)
I'd agree that the cost could certainly still be higher. At the moment it's a minimal expenditure assuming you end up somewhere you are happy to stay (specific or otherwise) relatively quickly.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 00:04   #11
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
There are many things people cannot do in planetarion without friends and/or activity. Obtain defence, for example. That does not make the act of sending or recieving defence an unfair action. So no, not really clear at all.
I don't think that you can compare defence with donations in this argument. All galaxies can send defence to members and all players can join alliances (good or bad). The method of doing these things is well documented. Admittedly there is a fair amount of luck involved in determining the quality of defence you will get but the new player has absolutely zero chance of gaining benefits from the "professional" donators.
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I'd love to see the evidence that says the only intended use of the exile system was to do as you say. I wont, because it doesn't exist anywhere except in your imagination. It is a function in the game to be used by anyone willing to pay the cost. I can understand you not liking the exile system as it stands, but it's not abuse to make use of it.
The evidence for the intended use of the exiling function is to be found in the many threads onthe subject in these forums at the time it was implemented. I'm certainly not going to trawl through them for examples. My memory and not my imagination is the source of my assertions. My position is that using a function to get around limits which were themselves introduced to try to level the playing field is, to me, not quite cheating (in that no actual rules are broken) but definitely abuse. This applies equally to repeated exiling to achieve a private galaxy and to keeping ones value artificially low by repeated donations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
(Since you point the finger specifically at my galaxy, I wondered about your own record in galaxy exiles given your feeling about its use, and it was interesting to see your own galaxy in which you are a minister exiled more planets into c200 than mine, and that 4 of the 6 subsequently logged in again, so were not inactive. While you may have been vehement in your desire that these planets not be exiled, I doubt it somehow. Interesting.)
I resent your implication that I'm being hypocritical in my opposition to these abuses. In all my 52 rounds of playing this game I've never engaged in any of them (or any of the many, many other such clever tricks such as fake recall messages, etc.). I went random this round and finished it in the same galaxy I was shuffled into. Our GC (snoops) may have been a tad trigger happy with the exile button but there were never any "habitual exilers" trying to find a place in our galaxy (AFAIK).
(BTW - I had no idea that you were in that galaxy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
The language you used certainly indicated you were. Words such as legitimate and abuse make it pretty clear.
I don't believe that using words such as "legitimate" and "abuse" in an argument indicate that it is based on moral superiority rather than reasoning.
Having said that, I realise that I do tend to come across as being rather arrogant. This is due, in no small part, to my use of more, and longer, words that would seem to be absolutely necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
Edit: I'm not trying to say these things couldn't benefit from changes, but arguments for doing so should be based on logical reasoning, not poorly veiled accusations of cheating and abuse when no rules have been broken and no bugs exploited.
We agree on both these points. I, too, believe that arguments should be based on logical reasoning (a few facts can also be helpful). If my accusations of abuse (not cheating) were poorly veiled then maybe that's because I feel quite strongly about the issue.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 00:24   #12
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I don't think that you can compare defence with donations in this argument. All galaxies can send defence to members and all players can join alliances (good or bad). The method of doing these things is well documented. Admittedly there is a fair amount of luck involved in determining the quality of defence you will get but the new player has absolutely zero chance of gaining benefits from the "professional" donators.
I concede they aren't exactly the same, but speaking to people and benefiting from the forming of a relationship with them is the very foundation of success in this game. At its heart, it's these political actions (and I mean political in it's influencing people definition, not the planetarion alliance context) that determine how well you do. There's no way a new player can get access to the kind of defence Wishmaster had access to this round for example, or even that I had access to (out of tag from another alliance), not that it was needed often.

I just don't see that it's unfair because of that, I see that as a natural result of succeeding with personal political actions.

Quote:
The evidence for the intended use of the exiling function is to be found in the many threads onthe subject in these forums at the time it was implemented. I'm certainly not going to trawl through them for examples. My memory and not my imagination is the source of my assertions. My position is that using a function to get around limits which were themselves introduced to try to level the playing field is, to me, not quite cheating (in that no actual rules are broken) but definitely abuse. This applies equally to repeated exiling to achieve a private galaxy and to keeping ones value artificially low by repeated donations.
Maybe, but it would be easy enough to code both of these things out of the game full stop if the intent was to eradicate them. The cost and effectiveness of doing these things has been tweaked multiple times, so neither has been ignored, but the lack of any actual removal provides a certain legitimacy.

Quote:
I resent your implication that I'm being hypocritical in my opposition to these abuses. In all my 52 rounds of playing this game I've never engaged in any of them (or any of the many, many other such clever tricks such as fake recall messages, etc.). I went random this round and finished it in the same galaxy I was shuffled into. Our GC (snoops) may have been a tad trigger happy with the exile button but there were never any "habitual exilers" trying to find a place in our galaxy (AFAIK).
(BTW - I had no idea that you were in that galaxy).
I think this indicates that it's maybe not quite as clear cut as "This gal abuses things, this one doesn't."

Quote:
We agree on both these points. I, too, believe that arguments should be based on logical reasoning (a few facts can also be helpful). If my accusations of abuse (not cheating) were poorly veiled then maybe that's because I feel quite strongly about the issue.
Cheating was a word that cropped up in the initial post, which is why I mentioned it in a more general comment rather than at you alone.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 07:41   #13
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Re: Donations

The abuse part is when the planets spend all their resources trying to get in and if they dont make it before they run out of resources they reset and keep on trying until they do.

It is highly fustrating from the outside to see a certain galaxy with almost exactly the same members in it EVERY round when supposedly the game is designed so that cant happen. What is the point in 'shuffling' and exiling at all. Why not just allow people to make a 10 man private galaxy from tick 1, atleast then that certain galaxy would partake from the start instead of sitting and hoarding and avoiding till tick 600 odd... that is my main gripe with it all, the fact that by staying small and exiling and sticking resources into the galaxy fund/alliance fund or having a dedicated covoper that will just provide you with free income for a whole round you are avoiding playing the game of attacking and defending because you stay too small to be attacked then all of a sudden you have a galaxy that is specifically tailored to deal with all incommings and very hard to hit.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 07:58   #14
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Re: Donations

ArcChas, emotionally charged words like "abuse" and "unfair" have no objective value. They are just opinions without any reasoning to back them up. Tell us why this approach to exiling is harmful to the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
I'd agree that the cost could certainly still be higher. At the moment it's a minimal expenditure assuming you end up somewhere you are happy to stay (specific or otherwise) relatively quickly.
I don't think increasing exiling costs would be a good idea. If you're playing normally, exile costs already very quickly become unsustainable.

The problem with the current exiling formula is that it's so easy to make the cost negligible. If you stay small you can exile to your heart's content. For example, I believe Benneh exiled more than 20 times before giving up and signing up as a late signer. He still got top 30, without putting in much effort, and actually did even better on value than he did on score.

In a perfect game, staying small for 300 ticks or signing up late would have some effect on your final rank. However, In a top galaxy, it doesn't matter how much value you have. You can just init to 1500-2000 roids with no one hitting you, and then cruise to an easy top 50 finish. That's what's broken about the exile system: the exile cost can be dodged by staying small and for a small group of people staying small has little to no impact on one's final rank.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 11:30   #15
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't think increasing exiling costs would be a good idea. If you're playing normally, exile costs already very quickly become unsustainable.

The problem with the current exiling formula is that it's so easy to make the cost negligible. If you stay small you can exile to your heart's content. For example, I believe Benneh exiled more than 20 times before giving up and signing up as a late signer. He still got top 30, without putting in much effort, and actually did even better on value than he did on score.

In a perfect game, staying small for 300 ticks or signing up late would have some effect on your final rank. However, In a top galaxy, it doesn't matter how much value you have. You can just init to 1500-2000 roids with no one hitting you, and then cruise to an easy top 50 finish. That's what's broken about the exile system: the exile cost can be dodged by staying small and for a small group of people staying small has little to no impact on one's final rank.
When I mentioned costs there I pretty much meant as you did, the penalty for using this as a strategy, rather than an individual exile cost. I agree, it's too easy at the moment, although over exaggerated a bit since our galaxy succeeded mainly due to not being attacked by anyone - which will help most galaxies.

It's partly aided by the silly requirement to "take" the startup resources.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 12:00   #16
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Re: Donations

A question for the PA pro's among you, is it possible to make a planet, take startup bonus and upgrade resource bonus and feed it into alliance fund, then reset and do the same again, over and over again? till say tick 336, by which time you would have 100 mill waiting for you in the alliance fund, which you can then latestart and get given out to you when needed (as alliance fund waiting period is only 8 ticks a time) meanwhile you have inited a lot of roids and started stashing up another 50 mill into your galaxy fund, then hoarding resources so hypothetically at tick 600-700 you could have about 3k roids and prod out about 200 mill+ of resources making you suddenly a top 10 planet with an extremely high roid count...

Just asking cos im intrested if this is doable?
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Unread 12 May 2013, 12:15   #17
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Re: Donations

Donations to ally fund are capped are they not?
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Unread 12 May 2013, 12:17   #18
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Re: Donations

Quote:
From the manual: In any 24 hour period, members can donate up to 2 ticks of their current income into the alliance fund. This donation process is instant.

Please note the alliance fund will hold a maximum of 75,000,000 resources at one time.
I don't think it can be done, but not certain.

It's quite similar though to what is done by quite a few people late starting already, donating to the alliance fund pre-reset to retrieve afterwards.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 12:26   #19
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Re: Donations

Alliance fund donations are very limited. Especially in the beginning the eligable donations are very small. So that wouldn't be a real viable tactic.

I don't think the donations are the real problem though. If you limit the galaxy fund more you will basically kill the cov-op strategy. And lets face it, even less strategy is not what this game needs.

Problem is in the exiling system. Apparently it's too easy to end up in the exact galaxy you want to.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 12:36   #20
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
A question for the PA pro's among you, is it possible to make a planet, take startup bonus and upgrade resource bonus and feed it into alliance fund, then reset and do the same again, over and over again? till say tick 336, by which time you would have 100 mill waiting for you in the alliance fund, which you can then latestart and get given out to you when needed (as alliance fund waiting period is only 8 ticks a time) meanwhile you have inited a lot of roids and started stashing up another 50 mill into your galaxy fund, then hoarding resources so hypothetically at tick 600-700 you could have about 3k roids and prod out about 200 mill+ of resources making you suddenly a top 10 planet with an extremely high roid count...

Just asking cos im intrested if this is doable?
Yes it's possible (and has been done, i think golan did something like it prior to when alliance donations got limited to a third of the resources every 8 tick period, and the 75m limit was actually enforced through trading too), tho resetting isn't the most effective way i think. I think it's more effective to setup a tiny high base income planet with only 100 or 200 roids (ensuring no incs). I did it this round and put in ~45m resources into the alliance fund. Considering the fact i wasnt the only one doing this in TGV and the fact i actually exiled around (and left 5m resources in a friendly gal) to get into the mercenaries galaxy meant i was limited to these 45m resources (for reference, Blizzardstorm put in another 42m). In an ideal situation where you don't exile i think you can manage to put in up to 65m resources, based on a 100 roid setup and no upgrade, prior to PT289, the first possible resettick for latestarters. Upgrades are worth at least another 4m resources.

The issue with the alliance fund is that it is a rather draining process to get the resource out, as alliance donations are fairly limited so it takes quite a bit of time to get it out (i think i calced it would take me 34 consecutive donations every 8 ticks to get all the funds out that i put in so roughly 300 ticks). Ofcourse there are ways around this by having another alliance member in the same galaxy that is eligible for donations recieve donations and putting them in the galaxy fund ensuring you can get 2 50m donations from the galaxy prior to spending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh View Post
Donations to ally fund are capped are they not?
Donations are, but there is a loophole where you can trade in your resources. And while the alliance fund is capped at having 75m resources, you can donate to other eligible planets and have them function as your bank by getting them to pay back all donations that have been sent when there is space in the alliance fund again.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 12:38   #21
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Re: Donations

Donations into the alliance fund are limited to 2 ticks worth of resources per day. Applying the same limit to the Galaxy fund would go a long way towards "fixing" these "abuses".

(Sorry Mz).
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Unread 12 May 2013, 12:50   #22
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Donations are, but there is a loophole where you can trade in your resources.
Yeah sorry i meant to add that you would trade in the resources for an hour to get them into the fund...

From my calculations quickly.. with 65 roids (195 total) with 15 of each ref, full cores and 60% bonus (guessimating) you would make 2.1 mill of each resource a day, by resetting and trading in startup bonus/upgrade bonus you would be putting in 2.04 mill at round start but it would grow daily due to increase in upgrade bonus so you would end up with more via the resetting way. Seeing as the 2.1 mill from having 195 roids relies on you having all those cons and cores alongside it....

So would imagine its not a huge difference but it is doable, out of intrest Influence as yes i know you and Blizzardstorm used the alliance fund to stack resources before latestarting what was the maximum you could pay out each time? and what was it dependant on?
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Unread 12 May 2013, 13:14   #23
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
ArcChas, emotionally charged words like "abuse" and "unfair" have no objective value. They are just opinions without any reasoning to back them up. Tell us why this approach to exiling is harmful to the game.
On their own they have no objective value - I don't use them on their own.

My reasons for asserting that constant exiling is bad for the game have been stated many times. Indeed you (and others) have already stated some in your posts in this thread.

I don't usually respond well to demands that I justify my position (especially when they should be self evident or when Ive done so many times in the past) but as it's you....

For the record:

1/ Randoms (unwanted) who are shuffled (or who exile) into one of these "pseudo-private" galaxies are cast aside as worthless - and often abused in the process. (See recent forum posts for examples). Thinking you've been lucky in finding a good galaxy (possibly after spending considerable resources to get out of a "bad" one) only to find yourself kicked out cannot be a good thing.

2/ The exilers looking for a specific galaxy add nothing to the game until they find their intended destinations and merely take up space(s) in "normal" galaxies until they move on again either by self-exiling or trying to bully or cajole the galaxy into kicking them out (thereby reducing the cost). Again, this decreases the chances of the "normal" galaxy getting a "good" exile and has an adverse effect on their enjoyment of the game and their chances of a good finish.

3/ The purpose of this whole exercise is to avoid the limits placed on BPs which were themselves introduced as a compromise. As a reminder to those who weren't playing back then (and to those with short memories) it went like this:
a/ All galaxies were random - people complained that luck was too great a factor in game experience and final ranks.
b/ Private galaxies were introduced - people complained that having all the good players in a few galaxies meant that the rest of the universe couldn't compete and were effectively little more than farms.
c/ Attempts were made to level the playing field by limiting the numbers of players in the private galaxies (I remember 15 planets per private gal & 25 per random gal) - this had little to no effect.
d/ (I may have missed a couple of steps here) Private galaxies were abolished and BPs were introduced as a way of allowing a few friends to play together (to avoid being in a totally inactive galaxy). The size of BPs has been increased and decreased to try to find a balance - so far inconclusively.

At some point in this process exiling and self-exiling were introduced. Costs and frequency limits were implemented to try to prevent (what I call) abuse but with little success.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 13:35   #24
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
On their own they have no objective value - I don't use them on their own.

My reasons for asserting that constant exiling is bad for the game have been stated many times. Indeed you (and others) have already stated some in your posts in this thread.

I don't usually respond well to demands that I justify my position (especially when they should be self evident or when Ive done so many times in the past) but as it's you....

For the record:

1/ Randoms (unwanted) who are shuffled (or who exile) into one of these "pseudo-private" galaxies are cast aside as worthless - and often abused in the process. (See recent forum posts for examples). Thinking you've been lucky in finding a good galaxy (possibly after spending considerable resources to get out of a "bad" one) only to find yourself kicked out cannot be a good thing.

2/ The exilers looking for a specific galaxy add nothing to the game until they find their intended destinations and merely take up space(s) in "normal" galaxies until they move on again either by self-exiling or trying to bully or cajole the galaxy into kicking them out (thereby reducing the cost). Again, this decreases the chances of the "normal" galaxy getting a "good" exile and has an adverse effect on their enjoyment of the game and their chances of a good finish.

3/ The purpose of this whole exercise is to avoid the limits placed on BPs which were themselves introduced as a compromise. As a reminder to those who weren't playing back then (and to those with short memories) it went like this:
a/ All galaxies were random - people complained that luck was too great a factor in game experience and final ranks.
b/ Private galaxies were introduced - people complained that having all the good players in a few galaxies meant that the rest of the universe couldn't compete and were effectively little more than farms.
c/ Attempts were made to level the playing field by limiting the numbers of players in the private galaxies (I remember 15 planets per private gal & 25 per random gal) - this had little to no effect.
d/ (I may have missed a couple of steps here) Private galaxies were abolished and BPs were introduced as a way of allowing a few friends to play together (to avoid being in a totally inactive galaxy). The size of BPs has been increased and decreased to try to find a balance - so far inconclusively.

At some point in this process exiling and self-exiling were introduced. Costs and frequency limits were implemented to try to prevent (what I call) abuse but with little success.
Your third point is the issue I have with what you're saying - that any use of game features that does not agree with your view of it's initial purpose is abuse.

Asserting these things are bad for the game is not what you're doing, you're making judgements on the people that use them. If indeed these things are bad for the game it should be possible to make cases to change them that don't involve subjective accusations of abuse - as you have done in your first and second points here.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 13:41   #25
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Yeah sorry i meant to add that you would trade in the resources for an hour to get them into the fund...

From my calculations quickly.. with 65 roids (195 total) with 15 of each ref, full cores and 60% bonus (guessimating) you would make 2.1 mill of each resource a day, by resetting and trading in startup bonus/upgrade bonus you would be putting in 2.04 mill at round start but it would grow daily due to increase in upgrade bonus so you would end up with more via the resetting way. Seeing as the 2.1 mill from having 195 roids relies on you having all those cons and cores alongside it....

So would imagine its not a huge difference but it is doable, out of intrest Influence as yes i know you and Blizzardstorm used the alliance fund to stack resources before latestarting what was the maximum you could pay out each time? and what was it dependant on?
If your smart about it trading in the resources only takes about 15 minutes a day at best.

Yeah after my post i did a quick calc too. You are assuming you can reset and add to the alliance fund every 25 ticks tho, i am not too sure you can (don't think it is possible to donate to your alliance while in protection, if it is i see a completely different loophole where you would just reset and join an alliance to donate the funds and do instant resets in the first tick of your planets existence). Then again you are also not counting any resources you will gather while waiting for your reset, i am not too experienced in resetting but i think nowadays you can still login and trade any income you get up to the tick you get reset. so i guess it's gonna end up being fairly similar in the end. It would be fun to have a contest just to see which way gets you more resources prior to pt289.

For your information:
Code:
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	770000	770000	770000	Influence	1012
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	640000	640000	640000	Influence	843
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	500000	500000	500000	Influence	735
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	490000	490000	490000	Influence	665
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	480000	480000	480000	Influence	657
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	480000	480000	480000	Influence	649
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	470000	470000	470000	Influence	641
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	450000	450000	450000	RexDrax		633
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	460000	460000	460000	Influence	623
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	460000	460000	460000	Influence	615
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	450000	450000	450000	Influence	601
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	440000	440000	440000	Influence	593
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	430000	430000	430000	Influence	585
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	430000	430000	430000	Influence	577
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	1287692	0	0	Influence	569
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	420000	420000	420000	Influence	561
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	410000	410000	410000	Influence	551
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	400000	400000	400000	Influence	542
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	390000	390000	390000	Influence	525
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	350000	350000	350000	RexDrax		517
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	300000	290000	300000	Influence	399
Influence 	Donations Out	0	0	0	250000	250000	250000	Influence	356
That's all the donations i recieved throughout the round, i however have not recieved back all the funds i put in, as i donated some to others that i didn't necessarily request back. Also TGV had a fairly lenient tax policy throughout a part of the round due to all the funds that were donated into the alliance fund, as a result everyone paid roughly 3/4 of the taxes they paid last round (granted less scans were done from the fund also). The amount you can donate back is limited, and donations take 8 ticks to arrive, i don't know the exact formula for the limit but it increases by ticks, roughly 10k each every 24 ticks in the period i was actively donating back to myself (PT517 - 665). You can never donate back more resources than would put you on the alliance average for value and score.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 14:48   #26
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
Your third point is the issue I have with what you're saying - that any use of game features that does not agree with your view of it's initial purpose is abuse.
My third point is a statement of the reason people use the exile feature in this way. Am I in error? If so, I'd be interested to learn what you think is the purpose of the exercise. I follow that with a history of the game leading to the development of the exile function. This is to illustrate that I'm not simply imagining the "initial purpose" of the function. Are any of those statements inaccurate? If so, what was the actual background to galaxy composition and the purpose of the exile function?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
Asserting these things are bad for the game is not what you're doing, you're making judgements on the people that use them. If indeed these things are bad for the game it should be possible to make cases to change them that don't involve subjective accusations of abuse - as you have done in your first and second points here.
I'm actually doing both - but one is a (natural?) consequence of the other. I'm not intentionally setting out to judge the individuals who make use of these features in this way.
I am, however, saying that these features should not be used in this way and stating that I do not so use them. It's almost impossible to make that statement without giving the impression that that one disapproves of those who do.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 18:25   #27
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
My third point is a statement of the reason people use the exile feature in this way. Am I in error? If so, I'd be interested to learn what you think is the purpose of the exercise. I follow that with a history of the game leading to the development of the exile function. This is to illustrate that I'm not simply imagining the "initial purpose" of the function. Are any of those statements inaccurate? If so, what was the actual background to galaxy composition and the purpose of the exile function?
The limit of bps is that they consist of 5 members maximum. Exiling does not change this in any way. Your claim that it "avoids the limits" is incorrect.

As for the background of current galaxy formation and exiles, I think it has been designed to provide people with many options for people to play the way they choose to. Elements of previous galaxy formation and exiling have been changed or removed as they were deemed to provide too significant advantages to the people who used them. It's certainly arguable that these should be changed further, but that does not make use of current features abuse.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 18:49   #28
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
The limit of bps is that they consist of 5 members maximum. Exiling does not change this in any way. Your claim that it "avoids the limits" is incorrect.
It seems that we're destined to disagree on this point but if you can't see that getting a group of 10 or more "buddies" together by using the exiling system isn't avoiding the limits then I despair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
As for the background of current galaxy formation and exiles, I think it has been designed to provide people with many options for people to play the way they choose to. Elements of previous galaxy formation and exiling have been changed or removed as they were deemed to provide too significant advantages to the people who used them. It's certainly arguable that these should be changed further, but that does not make use of current features abuse.
My argument is that the exiling function should be "changed or removed" for the same reason (which was the point made by the original poster). Whether the use of features for "imaginative" purposes constitutes abuse will always be a matter of opinion. I think everyone knows mine.

Actually, there used to be an allusion to this matter in the PA User agreement. Something along the lines of "Cheating includes, but is not restricted to, ...... <several specific issues>....... and use of bugs and loopholes to gain advantage.... etc". Please note that these were not the words used (my memory isn't that good) but the gist of it is there.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 20:09   #29
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Re: Donations

If you know there is always one, two or three gals that use the exile feature every round in order to fill it with active known members and you think that it is unfair, there is certainly one moment of the rnd where that gal has only 4~5 active members. Why dont launch waves to that place in order to avoid that so obvious future scenario?

If the use of a feature of the game in a hardcore way in order to maximize something (in a strategy game) is abuse, then the game should also forbid people to log for more than 4 hrs a day as that is what is expected of healthy gamming dedication.

Btw, I agree with the part that "reset" shouldnt allow the same benefits of "late sign".
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Unread 12 May 2013, 20:41   #30
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Re: Donations

Yes, I agree that "the community" should take down these galaxies early on. Sadly they don't seem to have the will or the ability to do it.

And I don't have anything against rewarding effort or activity (see my posts on the subject of prelaunching) - but many people who benefit from the activities we've been discussing brag openly about the lack of effort they need to invest in order to achieve top 50 finishes (or higher) by such methods.

I'm pleased you mentioned "late sign" as this is yet another feature which is part of the "abuse". Again, it had a genuine function - to allow people who missed tick start to join in the round at a later date without being too far behind to compete. It was very quickly subverted to allow BPs to add 1 or 2 extra members to their galaxies - and later to provide a final resort to those exilers who had been unsuccessful in their attempts to reach their target galaxies. Once again, imagine the frustration of "normal" galaxies who find members deleting their accounts in order to become late starters elsewhere.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 23:05   #31
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Re: Donations

Not only is it the community , it is the fault of game admin and and mh who are supposed to police the game for the community. The only way for the game to correct for these misuses of game features is for the game admins and and mh to close these loopholes as quick as they are discovered not after the round is over, and to sanction the alliances and members quickly and decisively. news of such sanctions will quickly pass amongst the community and such things will cease. there is such a thing as the spirit and intent of the game rules , and that's as important as the wording of the rules.

Dont think for one minute that players and the alliances aren't aware they are skirting the spirit of the intent of the rules. this is a game of skill not seeing how far you can stretch the rules for the win.

Its time for game admin and mh to take a stand for the game rules and intent and start sanctioning players and alliances publicly for their actions
such omissions can and will only encourage the culture of cheating and winning by way of loopholes and playing against the spirit and intent of the game rules.

The buck stops at the game admins and mh desks for being ineffective and lazy when it concerns game play integrity .
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Unread 12 May 2013, 23:12   #32
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Re: Donations

Bullshit. There is no "spirit of the rules". There's only the rules, and there's nothing in the rules that forbids donations from and to the galaxy fund.
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Unread 12 May 2013, 23:32   #33
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Re: Donations

Obviously you are among the unwashed players that needs a minder to tell you the difference between right and wrong as you have to play to win by technicalities rather than by game skill how sad for you ...
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Unread 13 May 2013, 00:46   #34
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Re: Donations

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
It was very quickly subverted to allow BPs to add 1 or 2 extra members to their galaxies - and later to provide a final resort to those exilers who had been unsuccessful in their attempts to reach their target galaxies. Once again, imagine the frustration of "normal" galaxies who find members deleting their accounts in order to become late starters elsewhere.
Quite frankly, if your 'normal' galaxy was of a half decent level most latestarters wouldn't reset from it to latestart. Throughout the past 15 rounds most of the latestarters i have seen are
a) genuine latestarters that took an extended break from the game and dont have a planet before PT313.
b) resetters from galaxies that are either too hostile or too disfunctional to them.
c) players that have somehow messed up their roundstart and feel they have a better chance of doing well as a latestart.
d) exilers that failed to reach a more than half decent galaxy, or (one of) the specific galaxies they were aiming for.

Most by far fall into categories B and C, and latestarters that fall into category C mostly aren't in functional or friendly galaxies either. Players in category B aren't satisfied with the galaxy they are in, so if they reset from your galaxy perhaps it is time to review your own/your BP's behaviour towards them. In the 10 rounds i played in the mercenaries gal, not once has anyone from us reset to latestart in another gal. By taking away latestart from these players you effectively condone them to have a crappy round due to being in a crappy galaxy, or force them to self-exile at a cost that is rather high (for real players). I don't know if you ever randomed into a crappy gal but exiling around to find a half decent galaxy gets expensive really quick if you are properly managing your planet in the process.

The need to 'abuse' the exile system by staying small until you reach a galaxy of your liking comes from it being damn near impossible to find a decent, friendly galaxy at a reasonable cost. We all know that all major alliances love to target hostiles in their own galaxies or the galaxies of their allies. To fully live up to your own potential 'abusing' the exile systems is unfortunately necessary evil, until the moment your place in the universe no longer effects the ability to live up to your own potential anymore, or you are fully free to pick your own place in the universe.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 01:09   #35
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Re: Donations

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Bullshit. There is no "spirit of the rules". There's only the rules, and there's nothing in the rules that forbids donations from and to the galaxy fund.
I agree that (resource)donations through any means(other than farming) isn't against the rules. But recent rounds have proven that it can give such an advantage(same as exiling) that we're no longer playing on a 'level' and 'balanced' playing field. I don't think it would be a bad thing to explore possibilities of restoring the balance in this.

One of these possibilities could be to limit the size of donations further, or to 'tax' donations to players that did not put the resources into the funds. This way you could ensure backhacking and latestarting remain viable personal strategies, but limit the overpowered advantage it gave to galaxies like 3.3 this round.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 02:47   #36
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Re: Donations

I agree with much of what you say, Influence. I know that some galaxies do mistreat their randoms (although I try not to do so myself) and I have no real problem with those randoms using the exile function to find a less hostile home. Subsequent exiles were made deliberately more expensive to try to discourage repeated exiling.

As for late starters, my issue isn't with those in groups a & b. It is mainly with those in group d (although I'm not too happy with group c - rounds are only 7 weeks long after all).
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Unread 13 May 2013, 05:00   #37
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by abaladjay View Post
Obviously you are among the unwashed players that needs a minder to tell you the difference between right and wrong as you have to play to win by technicalities rather than by game skill how sad for you ...
That is a logical fallacy, and you're wrong too. My planet finished the round at rank 207 and my gal was 17th. In the history of PA, I've never donated resources to anyone. How about you argue your point using actual arguments, rather than ad hominem attacks and emotionally charged language? Be a big boy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
I agree that (resource)donations through any means(other than farming) isn't against the rules. But recent rounds have proven that it can give such an advantage(same as exiling) that we're no longer playing on a 'level' and 'balanced' playing field. I don't think it would be a bad thing to explore possibilities of restoring the balance in this.

One of these possibilities could be to limit the size of donations further, or to 'tax' donations to players that did not put the resources into the funds. This way you could ensure backhacking and latestarting remain viable personal strategies, but limit the overpowered advantage it gave to galaxies like 3.3 this round.
As I said before, the current situation is not a good one. I would like to see the galaxy race become interesting again.

I'm just railing against this holier than thou attitude where you're not only required to follow all the actual rules, but also all of the "rules" that the moral crusaders of the community come up with to disguise their own incompetence. Just because someone is doing something you don't like and think should be illegal, doesn't mean it actually is illegal and requires punishment.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 05:41   #38
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Re: Donations

One of the things i dont get about covops is that realistically the most powerful one is bank hack... yet its not the last in the list...

Why is there not a cap on the number of exiles in/out a galaxy can make?? Why not base it round the buddypack system? Why not give every galaxy 10 exile 'tokens' for a 4 man BP, 11 for for a 3 man BP and 12 for a 2 man BP. When someone is exiled by the galaxy or self exiles from the galaxy a token is used up. When all the tokens are used up then thats it you are stuck where you are and with what you have. This to me seems to still allow galaxies to 'manipulate' the exile system to be where they want to be but also sets a cap on it so it doesnt get out hand.

The galaxy fund - at what point in the game does any galaxy amongst itself put 50 mill in the fund for any reason except to hide score or help a latestarter stay small. As far as im aware the idea of a galaxy fund was a place to put resources to help lesser planets or help crashers. Just knock the limit down to 20-30 mill and it becomes a less 'abusable' function, again people can still use it but not the way it is currently used to avoid incommings and allow bashing of n00bs for easy roids.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 06:41   #39
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiba View Post
one of the things i dont get about covops is that realistically the most powerful one is bank hack... Yet its not the last in the list...

Why is there not a cap on the number of exiles in/out a galaxy can make?? Why not base it round the buddypack system? Why not give every galaxy 10 exile 'tokens' for a 4 man bp, 11 for for a 3 man bp and 12 for a 2 man bp. When someone is exiled by the galaxy or self exiles from the galaxy a token is used up. When all the tokens are used up then thats it you are stuck where you are and with what you have. This to me seems to still allow galaxies to 'manipulate' the exile system to be where they want to be but also sets a cap on it so it doesnt get out hand.

The galaxy fund - at what point in the game does any galaxy amongst itself put 50 mill in the fund for any reason except to hide score or help a latestarter stay small. As far as im aware the idea of a galaxy fund was a place to put resources to help lesser planets or help crashers. Just knock the limit down to 20-30 mill and it becomes a less 'abusable' function, again people can still use it but not the way it is currently used to avoid incommings and allow bashing of n00bs for easy roids.
+1.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 09:43   #40
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Re: Donations

so to summarize the players that choose not to utilise the ingame features of gal donations and exile want it removed .
cry me a smurfin river
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Unread 13 May 2013, 09:51   #41
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Re: Donations

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so to summarize the players that choose not to utilise the ingame features of gal donations and exile want it removed .
cry me a smurfin river
spot on
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Unread 13 May 2013, 15:07   #42
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
so to summarize the players that choose not to utilise the ingame features of gal donations and exile want it removed .
cry me a smurfin river
No not at all. It's about capping these features because although they are basic game features that are needed there open ended/high threshold limits are severely open to tactics that an element of fairness out the game.

For example why should a galaxy have unlimited exiles and 4-5 people self exiling around avoiding playing knowing that once they all get in that galaxy then they won't get incommings as they have a clutch of highly influential players in there.

Why should someone be able to sign up at tick 336 and then basically avoid playing whilst have a top ten roid count for 300+ ticks whilst hoarding all his funds into gal/ally fund so he is artificially small and bash inactives knowing that no organised attack can hurt him.

Although I have no issue with sacrificing your planet for covops why should it be such an easy research to obtain and why should again avoiding incommings and being artificially small mean you can be more proficient at it?

Everyone should be equally open to incommings wether they are playing normally or using other methods.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 15:18   #43
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Why should someone be able to sign up at tick 336 and then basically avoid playing whilst have a top ten roid count for 300+ ticks whilst hoarding all his funds into gal/ally fund so he is artificially small and bash inactives knowing that no organised attack can hurt him.
Why should someone be condemned to be stuck in a situation that basicly means their entire round is no fun just because they were unluckly or ****ed up early on in the round.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 15:23   #44
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Re: Donations

Or throwing this one out there... Value and xp for completed research???
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Unread 13 May 2013, 15:27   #45
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Re: Donations

Quote:
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Why should someone be condemned to be stuck in a situation that basicly means their entire round is no fun just because they were unluckly or ****ed up early on in the round.
Infy I have no issue with people late starting, I have issues with them then avoiding incommings for a large part of the round to suddenly then prod a load of ships and be a t50 planet which means they can hold their roids. They should be stopped from bottom feeding roids for such an extended period and they shouldn't be able to artificially decrease score so they can keep bashing new players/dead planets/farm planets whilst not be open to incommings.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 15:38   #46
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Re: Donations

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
so to summarize the players that choose not to utilise the ingame features of gal donations and exile want it removed .
cry me a smurfin river
i think i said something similar to this in kaibas thread.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 15:58   #47
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Infy I have no issue with people late starting, I have issues with them then avoiding incommings for a large part of the round to suddenly then prod a load of ships and be a t50 planet which means they can hold their roids. They should be stopped from bottom feeding roids for such an extended period and they shouldn't be able to artificially decrease score so they can keep bashing new players/dead planets/farm planets whilst not be open to incommings.
The artificial decreasing of score through the galfund is very minimal (unless you donate your resources to other planets, which should come with a punishment imho). Especially now that the 75m limit is actually enforced. In fact with 2 latestarter slots this is limited even further. You become open to a fair bit ofc incs fairly quickly, especially if you are successful in getting a lot of roids bottomfeeding early on. The incs just tend to be less organised because scoregains from roiding you are lower. This however is the responsibility of the community to fix and not the admins. The latestarting strategy comes at enough of a disadvantage to not be overpowered.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 16:00   #48
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Re: Donations

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That is a logical fallacy, and you're wrong too. My planet finished the round at rank 207 and my gal was 17th. In the history of PA, I've never donated resources to anyone. How about you argue your point using actual arguments, rather than ad hominem attacks and emotionally charged language? Be a big boy.

As I said before, the current situation is not a good one. I would like to see the galaxy race become interesting again.

I'm just railing against this holier than thou attitude where you're not only required to follow all the actual rules, but also all of the "rules" that the moral crusaders of the community come up with to disguise their own incompetence.
Speaking of ad hominems.
Although I'm sure you weren't really aiming that "incompetence" comment at me.
Quote:
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Just because someone is doing something you don't like and think should be illegal, doesn't mean it actually is illegal and requires punishment.
Agreed on both counts - but I do believe that we should be allowed to express our dissatisfaction and to ask that consideration be given to making such practises less profitable.

I know that you don't believe that the "spirirt of the rules" exist. You've said so in this thread and also in another (a long time ago and directed at a comment I had made). I disagree with you entirely, although the terms "spirit of the law" and "spirit of the game" are the actual wording of the examples I could quote. Doing the right thing because it is right (and not just because the "rules" prescribe it) is an admirable trait - often referred to as sportmanship and fair play. Sadly this is becoming less common, even in games which were once synonymous with the concept. On the other hand, those who play "to the letter of the law" are often guilty of what is referred to as gamesmanship - a trait which is at best dubious and at worst censurable. An example of this would be the common practice of a footballer falling over in the penalty area in an attempt to gain a penalty (this has only recently been outlawed in the rules) or using a hand to put the ball into the net (as in the famous Maradonna "Hand of God" incident) which is, of course, a foul but is often successful. Both of these clearly constitute cheating but what about claiming a throw in/corner/goal kick when you know you touched the ball last. This isn't against the rules but it is certainly cheating.

I'll leave it there as I could go on all day. My point remains that just because we can do a thing and that the said "thing" is not specifically proscribed by the rules does not mean that we should do it - or that we should be surprised when other players complain about it.

The question of whether massive donations, constant exiling, keeping value artificially low, etc. are morally wrong is one we cannot resolve - nor, I believe, should we try to do so. We all have our own view on this and none of us actually has the "moral authority" to impose this on others. I have, however, tried to demonstrate how these practises have an adverse effect on the game and on the majority of the (few) remaining players.
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Unread 13 May 2013, 16:25   #49
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Re: Donations

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post

Everyone should be equally open to incommings wether they are playing normally or using other methods.
I assume the galaxy your referring to is 3:3 so there were planets this round in there from fang/ct/nd believe who were on the other side to your good self and yet they received little or no incomings during the block wars , part of that may be because the allys represented in that gal believe they can't hit the gal because their own members ingal will reveal lt's etc or the alliance hc accept the gal is not roidable and accept these players into their tag because they guarentee the ally 7-10 mil score with little or no effort .
at the end of the day they have set their gal up with competant planet managers multiple allys and a way to maximise the ingame features for their own benefit , they did not exploit a bug or cheat they just did something that anyone else could do but chose not too and because they are good at it you want it capped/removed ?
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Unread 13 May 2013, 17:02   #50
RexDrax
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Re: Donations

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
I assume the galaxy your referring to is 3:3 so there were planets this round in there from fang/ct/nd believe who were on the other side to your good self and yet they received little or no incomings during the block wars , part of that may be because the allys represented in that gal believe they can't hit the gal because their own members ingal will reveal lt's etc or the alliance hc accept the gal is not roidable and accept these players into their tag because they guarentee the ally 7-10 mil score with little or no effort .
at the end of the day they have set their gal up with competant planet managers multiple allys and a way to maximise the ingame features for their own benefit , they did not exploit a bug or cheat they just did something that anyone else could do but chose not too and because they are good at it you want it capped/removed ?
I guess as TGV HC I will try to answer why TGV never hit that gal....

1) we were in a block war for most of the round so couldnt devote adequate resources to that gal. In order to hit that gal you would have to throw massive waves on it and coordinate with other alliances.
2) only alliance we could coordinate with would be App but even our attacks would have been stopped since fang/nd could ground and then CT could hit us back
3) only effective way to hit that gal would be for 3 alliances to declare a temporary truce and hit them. However that gal had representatives from fang/nd/ct/app I believe which meant if any 3 alliances teamed up we would most likely have to hit each others member. This is not good for moral within the alliance when we sanction attacks on our own members from other alliances
4) non-representative alliances such as hr, innuendo, mega, etc.. could have hit them, but they would have to throw a lot at the said galaxy and the other bigger alliances would be able to cover them most likely
5) and lastly.... attacks have a tendency to leak if they are big so its highly likely that the said galaxy would have know about it beforehand and grounded as such plus gotten some of their alliance to ground.

Hitting such a fenced galaxy is not easy.

Now regarding donations... I do not want them removed since I use them to help out smaller players to catch up or if someone had a crash that wasnt too bad. They are also used to help the scanners buy amps and make scans for raids and incomings. I also use them to donate to active night time players to build bigger def fleets and to give out build orders if we are lacking a specific ship type or weak against it. Reducing their effectiveness in order to plug the late starter loophole or any other such "perceived violations of the rules" I would not be opposed to.

Regarding the whole late starting and exiling for a specific galaxy, in principle they are not breaking the rules and the admins cant really do anything until the rules or game mechanics are changed. Personally speaking I am not a fan of the same players ending up together and making sure they get a fence up just so they can win. Where is the challenge in that really? If instead they won without their exile scheme then I would be impressed but they way they win the round... not really impressed and I would not classify their gal and members are top notch players in the current iteration of PA. Hell if I get 8-10 players together and pull some of the stunts that they pull I could win top gal too, and I am sure there are way more players out there that can do it too, and skilled too. They just choose to not implement the same strategies that this particular galaxy uses to win. By strategy I mean their effort to exile in order to have everyone land in the same galaxy and also exiling good active skilled players.

I think 3 rounds ago you guys exiled Buddah because not everyone from your group had made it to your galaxy. Buddah is an active good player but you didnt care about that. You even exiled me and tried to get me to self exile by stating the galaxy was going to disband. I knew better and just stuck around till you exiled me. I wasnt going to pay the price, you guys could.

Is what your doing within the rules, yeah it is. Do I have to like it, no I dont. Will you continue to get negative from the PA community, yeah most likely since you guys are choosing to use a strategy that is based on winning at all cost.

Yes I know the game is about winning, I have no issue with that since I want to win as much as the next person. The difference is if I make a bp/galaxy and I get a good active random in, I will not exile that planet just because I am waiting for a particular person(s) to end up in the galaxy. You guys always do no matter what and I think that is what has the PA community annoyed. It is within the rules ...

Hell maybe a few of us will get together and do the same thing to set up several super fort gals and go after this particular gal :P
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