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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 17:59   #1
Smudge
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The Support Planet Rule

This is a serious and valid suggestion which NEEDS discussion. We've had incidents with planets and MH's in the past (and currently in one), so I ask the PA community - do we *really* need it?

There is no clear description of what is and what isn't a support planet and its wide open to interpretation as its currently "defined".

(Serious) discussion please, keep on topic and dont bring up past/current issues, this is for discussion on the RULE, not alliances etc
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 18:13   #2
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Hardcode it. actively prevent people in one alliance from becoming a support wing of another.
Alliance limits are there for a reason ( ensures a fair and level playing field for alliances ) , support wings of alliances all belonging to the same group is an intentional method of bypassing this limit.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 18:13   #3
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

My personal view is that we do not need a support planet rule. I think players should be free to do what is possible within the game limits and that it is up to the designers (or who ever it is supporting them) to find creative ways of making unwanted feature usage simply not worth the effort.

As been mentioned by so many ppl already, the current EULA is simply far to open for different interpretations. As far as i'm concerned it should be restricted to multying only, and everything else should simply be dealt with in game.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 18:16   #4
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

I'm with Wandows.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 18:31   #5
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

I think the support planet rule is a sad relict of the 1up vs eXi wars where exilition just tried a bit too hard to win by "having friends with viper fleets" and 1up was too convincing towards PA-Team to get them closed and get a rule in place to stop support planets.

Now that we have hardly any alliance competition left anyway it is used to hunt down a few out of tag scanners and make everyone worry about their ingame actions.

Support planets were annoying in the round when the rule was set in place but now it's the rule which is the problem.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 18:34   #6
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

With jupp 100% here.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 18:50   #7
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Ditch the support planet rule, remove alliance limits and alliance rankings.

Problem solved.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 18:59   #8
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Ditch the support planet rule. Remove alliance limits while we're at it. Alliance rankings....I'd trial a round without them, sure.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 19:23   #9
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

What jupp said pretty much sums it up.

As for the suggestion of "hardcoding" everything that support rule implies, I won't get into how good or how bad would that be (although my opinion on that is easily guessed). I will just point out that it's technically impossible to do anything of the sort. You could patch, patch, and patch it some more into the code, but all that it will do is just open more exploitable holes.

So (if you want to keep the support rule farce) you would again need the actual "rule" in the EULA, which would again create the problems we have now. The whole effort invested into hardcoding would be wasted, and the rule would still be as shit as it is now.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 19:24   #10
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Yep, remove that rule, hide allyranking and make it visible end of round just for the fun of it
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 20:21   #11
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

We need rules to prevent going back to situations in early rounds where rounds were decided before they were even started. Either hard-coded or in the Eula. The problem is that people are creative in finding new ways around the rules. That is why we have rules that give the multihunters some room to manoever in. I don't see a better solution to the current situation.
Each round the game changes a bit, creating new room for creative thinkers to get an unfair advantage. You cannot expect the rules to forsee every unwanted situation in such a dynamic game.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 20:33   #12
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
We need rules to prevent going back to situations in early rounds where rounds were decided before they were even started.
My memory might be flawed after all this time, but wasn't Round 3 the only really one sided, quickly decided round in Planetarion's history? Rounds 1 and 5 are close contestants, but not quite there (though R1 was heavily one sided alliance-wise, but also specific for being the first round).

You can also compare the actual wars and battles that were going on in the past, between blocks and alliances, and the bare score accumulation game with as little risk as possible that happens in the recent rounds.

And ultimately, this rule does nothing to achieve the goals you speak of. It's impossible to hardcode things you speak of, it's impossible to rule them out. It's in the nature of the game, and you can't remove it without reducing the game to a dumb, linear PA simulation.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 20:47   #13
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Ofcause we need rules and a garanteed setting to play in.

Anyone can recruit 200 members and smack an alliance. Winning with 70 members over other alliances with just 70 members takes skill.

Yes to 70 member limit, Yes to Support planet rules, Yes to a much more hardliner approach from MH on cheaters and exploiters.
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 21:34   #14
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

the only way it would work to have a support planet rule is if it was clear and defined. like assassin said about the planets with a lot of one or two specific low eta ships that could defend out of tag while scanning for the ally. the 'support part' mainly comes from the defense sent, not the scanning.

if you're going to have it, be specific.

also, Red-, do your research and see the last time an alliance played with ONLY 70 members as a cap. you will see that (as has been admitted on these forums recently) alliances have had scanners in other ally tags, have had friends do scans for them, have had members basically everywhere. if this isn't evident by the fact that some alliances rotate members in/out of tag for donations, i don't know what to say to get that point across to you (or everyone else for that matter).
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Unread 9 Jul 2007, 22:40   #15
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

I know its happening - i didnt say it wasnt.

I am asking people to stop it and all play under the same terms so it gets to be a fair fight.

Last round i know both the top2 alliances cycled thier scanners too.

Perhaps MH should check all join and leaves for top alliances and check donations to them then to try and get some more closed, but heck there still other ways to get around - Lets hope some HCs will have the balls to say "lets go for a fair win".
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 11:20   #16
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Although I agree that the support planet rule should either be changed or removed as it currently stands, however you need to look at exactly why it was introduced. The game is currently flawed in certain areas. As far as I can see, it stands because of:

- Alliances have a limit, certain people want the alliance score to be a true reflection of the alliance itself.
- Certain types of ship are easy to defend an alliance whilst outside of it.
- Covert operations are unbalanced and harmful, they can screw over a large planet with ease whilst the little planet out of alliance doesn't get harmed.
- Scanners can also operate outside of an alliance, so valuable slots can be taking up by someone with more score.

If the rule was simply removed without changing other parts of the game we'd have 70 man alliances with a whole range of support planets. The next round would probably bring up arguments about X alliance having people using covert ops outside of the alliance.

Personally I'd remove all alliance rankings and keep the alliance limit whilst removing the support planet rule. Increase the prizes so that the entire winning galaxy gets credits instead of just 5. Try and improve the game by giving more focus to the galaxy, more features to allow random people to work together.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 11:39   #17
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Hardcode it. actively prevent people in one alliance from becoming a support wing of another.
Alliance limits are there for a reason ( ensures a fair and level playing field for alliances ) , support wings of alliances all belonging to the same group is an intentional method of bypassing this limit.
I believe the original poster said 'serious'. Your suggestion is a pie so far up in the sky that it headed out into orbit several months ago and is currently accelerating past Jupiter. The only way you might be able to return it to earth is by offering some practical examples of just how this 'hardcoding' would work

Personally, I think that the support planet rule should either a) be removed or b) replaced with an exhaustive list of things that players are not allowed to do, with the assumption that anything not on that list is allowed. Of course, this last can later be amended if there is a need to ban a particular form of play. That way, enforcement is always about the rules and not about personal interpretations.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 11:51   #18
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

You CAN'T hardcode the support planet rule. It is not possible.
Get rid of it. If the whole universe feels an alliance is getting an unfair advantage over the others by using support planets, it should be up to them to settle this issue ingame.
I am for keeping Rankings though, taking into account perhaps the top 60 planets for each alliance.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 12:06   #19
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by jupp
1up was too convincing towards PA-Team to get them closed and get a rule in place to stop support planets.
Enough said. Abolish it.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 12:14   #20
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

All this even playing field bollocks is just that. Bollocks. We all start with the potential to do anything within the limits of the game. Getting more people to help you is a sign that you're good at the game. The market corrects itself mostly and you certainly don't need "government" interference on such an insanely detailed level.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 12:22   #21
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

So you want to play within the limits of the game but besides that you want to recruit anyone you want and do anything you like.

If the top alliances didnt use out of tag support planets id guess that top 13 or so would all be potentially winners of the round and that would make the politics of PA even more important.

But instead a few cheaters are ranked in the top making the real competition (and fun) in the rank 3-13 or so on who will beat each other.

Alliance rankings is an excellent excuse for alliance wars, but without a meaningfull meassurement based on EQUAL and FAIR terms its pointless.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 12:27   #22
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
If the top alliances didnt use out of tag support planets id guess that top 13 or so would all be potentially winners of the round and that would make the politics of PA even more important.
What? Are? You? On? (not about, I ment, what have you been smoking)
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 13:23   #23
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
If the top alliances didnt use out of tag support planets id guess that top 13 or so would all be potentially winners of the round
You quite clearly have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
But instead a few cheaters are ranked in the top making the real competition (and fun) in the rank 3-13 or so on who will beat each other.
This just is just idiocy.

Quote:
Alliance rankings is an excellent excuse for alliance wars, but without a meaningfull meassurement based on EQUAL and FAIR terms its pointless.
Actually alliance rankings have demonstrably inhibited the development of alliance wars.

To be honest unless you want to ban politics (and I have no idea how'd you go about this in PA) you can't have a system where the best 70 players in ingame terms will win. Politics plays a large role in this as well and the ability to play the game well politically is lightyears ahead of the ability to play an online spreadsheet well in terms of difficulty. There is no difference in terms of fairness between one 140 member alliance and 2 70 member alliances beating the crap out of you.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 13:58   #24
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Hardcode it. actively prevent people in one alliance from becoming a support wing of another.
Alliance limits are there for a reason ( ensures a fair and level playing field for alliances ) , support wings of alliances all belonging to the same group is an intentional method of bypassing this limit.
I agree completely. If it's going to exist as rule, it should exist as a part of the game. The only things that should be external rules to be enforced are things that are actually impossible to hardcode (such as multiple accounts, account sharing* etc).

And to answer Rob's post, here's how to hardcode it:

a) Defense fleets can only be received from people in your same galaxy and tag. If you are not in a tag, you can receive defense from anywhere.

b) Remove the retarded alliance member limit so there is no incentive to have scanners or covert operators out of tag or in other tags and this problem is solved**.

* It's possible to enable both these things by code, but not disable them.

** In fact, the alliance fund turns this into a strong incentive to have them in the main tag. They won't contribute as much directly score-wise as an active/attacking/defending planet, but they will contribute more than they would outside the tag. Plus there's the obvious synergy effect.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 14:30   #25
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

How does option A address cov ops or scanning?
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 14:33   #26
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Well, jump gate probes are fairly easy to limit to targets that either have fleets headed towards from your tag or that are in your tag. Ridiculous extents.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 14:55   #27
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
How does option A address cov ops or scanning?
They're meant to be conjunctive, not disjunctive.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 15:26   #28
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester

a) Defense fleets can only be received from people in your same galaxy and tag. If you are not in a tag, you can receive defense from anywhere.
i agree completely, that the support planet rule as it is now is crap and that it should be removed or hardcoded.

there is only 1 problem i see: fleetcatches are impossible to stop.

lets say ally A + B are blocked and at war with ally C + D.

if A + B organise a fleetcatch on a member of ally C there is no way to stop it if it was organised properly.

at least there should be an option for allies that block to send defense fleets to each other (without the ETA bonus ofc).

imo you should be able to attack / defend / scan / cov op whoever you want, regardless of what tag you are in and regardless of what tag your attack / defense / scan / cov op target is in, so i would completely scrap this rule, but if PA team decides to keep this rule, then please fix it and think of all consequences before you hardcode it.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 15:40   #29
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
there is only 1 problem i see: fleetcatches are impossible to stop.

lets say ally A + B are blocked and at war with ally C + D.

if A + B organise a fleetcatch on a member of ally C there is no way to stop it if it was organised properly.
Actually that's wrong. Attrition favors the defender due to salvage. Not only that, but there are serious disadvantages to tying up that much firepower at one planet. Even if D can't send defense, they can send defense-classed retals.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 15:48   #30
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

ofc they can send retals, but in times of war a fleetcatch of a medium or big planet got a bigger value than some lost roids plus it might make that fleetcaught player give up; not everyone got a "never give up" mentality.

as well i can't see any reason why two alliances should be allowed to attack 1 planet while on the other hand 2 alliances are not allowed to def 1 planet.

considering all aspects i think removing ally tag limits like you suggested it would solve all major problems.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 16:11   #31
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
ofc they can send retals, but in times of war a fleetcatch of a medium or big planet got a bigger value than some lost roids plus it might make that fleetcaught player give up; not everyone got a "never give up" mentality.

as well i can't see any reason why two alliances should be allowed to attack 1 planet while on the other hand 2 alliances are not allowed to def 1 planet.

considering all aspects i think removing ally tag limits like you suggested it would solve all major problems.
The retals were an aside, the main point was that defender's are favored by attrition due to salvage.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 16:18   #32
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

As I said in Round 15 when VGN/Subh were persecuted for helping to defend a fleetcatch on a major eXilition planet, I see no reason why the support planet should apply to fleetcatches of such a nature.
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 16:55   #33
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
As I said in Round 15 when VGN/Subh were persecuted for helping to defend a fleetcatch on a major eXilition planet, I see no reason why the support planet should apply to fleetcatches of such a nature.
But perhaps the MHs do? You never know what those wacky guys will get up to next!
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 17:53   #34
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

ok i scanned through this thread and the way i see it is

Asc formed 2nd tag to accommadate their members over 70
CT ,VGN and jenova just have their extra members out of tag


Asc are and have been punished for trying to play by the rules while the others are getting off scot free for breaking them

whether we like it or not the support planet rule is just that a rule of the game , granted there is a lot of inconsistancy with the MH's interpretation of it but it does seem comical to me that the alliance trying to keep within the rules is the one that is most severly punished
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Unread 10 Jul 2007, 18:00   #35
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Re: The Support Planet Rule

- ditch support rule. Let everyone scan/defend/attack who they want. Checking all that probablye takes too much time, wich is better used to detect real cheaters (multis etc).

- lower alliance limit to about 40 or so. And allow alliances to divide their players over tags as they see fit. Wich for a big alliance will probably end up with a few tags containing full attack planets aiming to score high, a tag with planets who play normal at first but then focus on building up big def fleet and neglecting their own score, a tag containing their covop/scanning planets, etc etc. So alliances can be as big as they want. If they dont have the organisational skill to maintain the amount of players they have, they are going to collapse before the end of the round anyway.

Ofcourse the term 'alliance' would not be correct ingame any more, but with scanners, covops and defenders sometimes out of tag, it probabably never was anyway. A tag might then be more considered as a task force or something alike.
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