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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 07:53   #1
Radical Edward
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German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Jesus I am pissed off. I am a member of a kung fu club, but since I have to start writing up my thesis now, I want to quit. Now both my wife and I are members there. Anyway, I contacted them to ask to quit and I get this letter back saying "Aus Gründen der Kulanz wird die letzte Einzug der Monatsgebühr im März 2006 erfolgen" or in English "For reasons of fair trading the last monthly fee will come in march 2006" or in other words, my wife and I have to pay €25 each a month for something that we aren't even getting, because although the letter says I can carry on going, I don't have the time. There is no contract involved in this, just a permission letter for them to withdraw money from the bank (kind of like the evil twin of direct debit: with direct debit you can cancel it, but with this, I can't - they have to cancel it) every month. Does anyone know if I actually have to pay this money, or if I can get out of it somehow? I know that German law is often rather nasty and refers to obscure trading laws and so on alot of the time (for example I have no idea what my contract means, because it just refers to various legal statutes all the time, not like a UK contract where it has to be understandable) I have asked them nicely and hopefully they will stop it, but if not, I will get another copy of the payment form that I signed and go to a lawyer about this.

I am not a happy bunny.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 08:10   #2
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
A similar thing happened to me when I changed ISPs'.

Tiscali told me they would still have to take the next months money out on the direct debit, so I cancelled it.

Still waiting for them to complain about it.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 08:12   #3
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Can't you cancel your bank account?

A tad extreme, but I presume they can't continue to withdraw funds from a non-existing account.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 08:43   #4
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
that doesnt really make sense to me : from my understanding 'Kulanz' should be a service the customer benefits from not suffers. For example if your warranty for something is over by 1 month and they still repair it for free - that would be 'Kulanz' (fair traiding) and is mostly used in technical / repair issues from what i know.

I guess if there is no contract about the duration of your membership then i would not pay more than the started month and check it out with a lawyer.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 08:47   #5
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Was your contract for a certain period or why don´t they cancel it?

Try telling your bank to refuse paying this bill, maybe they stop charging after that.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 08:51   #6
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupp
that doesnt really make sense to me : from my understanding 'Kulanz' should be a service the customer benefits from not suffers. For example if your warranty for something is over by 1 month and they still repair it for free - that would be 'Kulanz' (fair traiding) and is mostly used in technical / repair issues from what i know.
Your understand it right. It is just standard business "mindf*ck" to have them tell you that it is "Kulanz" that they "only" charge for another 6 months - i mean - without any time limit ... couldnt they also charge for another 5 years?

The standard termination time of gyms i know is between 3 months and 6 months - so while it is annoying, this isnt something totally unuseable.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 09:06   #7
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
still he must have signed some sort of contract for his membership where it says how much he has to pay and what he gets for it and all that stuff including the duration of the contract - a lot of those fitness center use automatic-membership-extension after 1 contract period runs out.

I am sure every sports club needs common member rules and agreements - we are still in germany fs !
and those might include a 6 month "quitting period"

if it's in there you have no chance to get out of it if not the club breaks the contract from his side like which would allow you an extra odinary cancelling of the contract at once.

(For example if a kung fu club doesnt give kung fu lessons anymore which would make your membership useless )
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 09:13   #8
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Can't you cancel your bank account?

A tad extreme, but I presume they can't continue to withdraw funds from a non-existing account.
I am going to do this if I cannot do anything else. It will be a real pain as I have a load of stuff connected to the account, like salary, rent, phone and so on, but well worth €300
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 09:18   #9
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupp
still he must have signed some sort of contract for his membership where it says how much he has to pay and what he gets for it and all that stuff including the duration of the contract - a lot of those fitness center use automatic-membership-extension after 1 contract period runs out.
as I said, all I signed was permission from them to take the money from my account. I will go through that again though to make sure there isn't something vicious embedded in it somewhere. there probably is and I am probably screwed since it will have been my fault for not checking the fine print carefully enough. But still I am pissed off about it.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 09:19   #10
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Oh and before you do stuff like cancelling their monthly pay, you should make very sure that they dont have the right to charge for another 6 months. Because it is very easy in germany to get kind of a "injunction" from a court against somebody who doesnt pay. Each warning letter will increase the total bill, soon you will get a letter from a "Inkasso" company and at the end of that it leads to a "Pfändung". Beside that, it will be noted in your credibility records at the Schufa.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 09:23   #11
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Oh and before you do stuff like cancelling their monthly pay, you should make very sure that they dont have the right to charge for another 6 months. Because it is very easy in germany to get kind of a "injunction" from a court against somebody who doesnt pay. Each warning letter will increase the total bill, soon you will get a letter from a "Inkasso" company and at the end of that it leads to a "Pfändung". Beside that, it will be noted in your credibility records at the Schufa.
well I will be off to a lawyer about this first. as I said, if there is nothing I can do, then I will just be pissed off about it, and do what I can to make sure they lose customers. They might have my money, but I will offset that against all the money they will lose for annoying me.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 10:13   #12
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
if you didnt sign a contract i dont see how they can take your money. you might try to get a copy of their AGBs (allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen) before you go to your lawyer. If their AGBs state a 'Kündigungsfrist' i dont think there is much you can do about it, on the other hand, if they put things too nasty in it, it becomes invalid. for further info post the letter they send you. i still have my BGB around here somewhere...
do they have a website?
oh, and maybe you cant cancel a 'Bankeinzug' (and im not really sure about that), you can always tell your bank to transfer your money back, but in this case id advise against it.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 14:30   #13
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
How on earth did you find a kungfu club costing less than £20 a month?
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 16:16   #14
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
How on earth did you find a kungfu club costing less than £20 a month?
by living in small east German city.

there is a better one that we have found since, in which you can do Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Dragon dance, Shinkendo, Kendo, Tae Bo and karate, for €12 a month.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 17:13   #15
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Exclamation Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
If they have CAB's in Germany, the go to one.

I had this problem on a much lesser scale when I cancelled my gym membership; it's just pure ****ing robbery and I advise you to do everything possible to avoid paying them.
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 17:25   #16
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Exclamation Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Or you could just firebomb their premises and intimidate their staff and the other customers, thus destroying their business altogether. (This would certainly be my first choice.)
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 17:50   #17
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Or you could just firebomb their premises and intimidate their staff and the other customers, thus destroying their business altogether. (This would certainly be my first choice.)
they would beat him up with kung fu
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 19:12   #18
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
cancelling gym membership is an utter bitch
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 22:24   #19
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
i talked to a friend this evening and he told me that this joining for a whole year seems to be common policy for gyms.
he was only allowed to quit before the whole year was over because he broke up with his girlfriend and move back home (which is 70 km away from that gym). so maybe you can somehow fake moving away?
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Unread 5 Oct 2005, 23:51   #20
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Re: German Law (Gründen der Kulanz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
A similar thing happened to me when I changed ISPs'.

Tiscali told me they would still have to take the next months money out on the direct debit, so I cancelled it.

Still waiting for them to complain about it.
My father did this and somehow they forced to take the money out of his account.

His made his complaint to NatWest and Tiscali.

He might take it further but I don't know where it's going...
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