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Unread 30 Aug 2005, 09:15   #1
Appocomaster
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Races

As things stand this round, Races have some differences. It's very much possible to increase these differences, either by changing the default race advantages, or by giving researches to give races certain bonuses (as suggested here last round), or both. I'm sure many people are happy with the current race situation, but we could go the opposite way, and remove races. Instead, planets would get to choose, for example, branches of technology to research, and the differences between the planets would be produced by the different researches that everyone did, and an increase in the bonuses given by engineering to compensate for the loss of race bonuses. This would be better for new players, as most select Terran and then are stuck with it all round, whereas now they can delay their choice for a few days, after they've spoken to their galaxy and so on.

An example of how this could work is given here:

There's 4 tech trees, "Normal", "Cloaked", "EMP", and "Steal". Each has 3 researches: one for Fi/Co, one for Fr/De, one for Cr/Bs.
They take 24/36/48 hours respectively to research.

They trees are limited in the following way:
[1 = Fi/Co research, 2 = Fr/De research, 3 = Cr/Bs research]

Normal 1 stops Cloaked 3 from being researched,
Cloaked 1 stops Normal 3 from being researched,
EMP 1 stops Steal 3 from being researched,
Steal 1 stops EMP 3 from being researched,

Normal 2 stops Cloaked 2 from being researched,
Cloaked 2 stops Normal 2 from being researched,
EMP 2 stops Steal 2 from being researched, and
Steal 2 stops EMP 2 from being researched.

Only 3 level 1 researches are allowed to be researched - it doesn't matter the order in the 3 researches are made, but once they're made the fourth one is disabled.
This gives everyone one tree they can research to Cr/Bs, one to Fr/De, and one to Fi/Co. One branch won't be researched at all.
Each research gives (roughly) 2 ships - this allows 1 EMP/Steal ship targetting each class.

In addition, Cloak 1, EMP 2, Steal 2 and Normal 3 give pod researches (Cloaked gives Fi pods, EMP gives De pods, Steal gives Fr pods, and Normal gives Bs pods). This will give everyone 2 pod classes, although the Bs pods will probably be rarest by a long way.

Also, the 3rd ship research of whichever branch would give the structure killer.

Although this (probably) won't change R15 in any way, it'll probably influence Round 16.
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Unread 30 Aug 2005, 09:46   #2
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Re: Races

"Back to the roots"

/me remembers R3+R4

Yes, would be something nice, too.

But then make the "Steal" tree the only one beeing abled to get other ships...

And give some Advantages to the Cloacked planets back
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Unread 30 Aug 2005, 09:57   #3
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Re: Races

Well, why stop at ships?

why not have 4 branches of Ship, 1 eta, 1 infrastructure, 2 scan ("lower" scans, unit and below, and "upper" scans News and above), 1 covert ops, 1 core resource and 2 asteroid mining (<1500, >1500? ) branches

And say, players have to choose between 6 of the 12 or something - then players can have much greater diversity with their planets, and make the number of combinations quite variable (though not really handicapping anyone unless you do it really badly).

Though i have to say, your idea has some interesting aspects to it. The main problem i see is that (like all ideas that are similar to this) is that you'll end up with the "ideal" fleet, that has the best of both (all) worlds.

Something like this was suggested a few rounds ago (like 5 or 6). It was quickly identified that it would lead to a situation where players would pick and choose the best ships from each race of each class, and thus create the ideal fleet.

The thing about ship stats, is that you can partially balance good ships with poor performing ships in other areas - ie make the race strong against FI whilst weak at BA for example - which means that they can still be targeted effectively by BA whilst completely wtfpwning in FI. With a system as such you suggest, it is potentially the case where a certain combination would be highly effective at stopping all classes of incoming - the only restriction would be on the amount of resources available to purchase enough of each class of ship, and so on. This could be reduced signiciantly by extending the number of classes of ship from 6 to 10 (i have done quite alot of work on 10 class ship stats etc), as then the resources problem makes picking and choosing prohibative. But with 6 classes, i think it would be doable to have the immune fleet, and tbh that isnt a great idea.

Though i see that you do recognise this problem, i just worry that this system would mean that *ALOT* more care would have to be given when designing ship stats - as all the possible "races" would have to be considered, instead of just the existing 4. And you and i know in particular how hard that already is .
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Unread 30 Aug 2005, 10:02   #4
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Re: Races

I have felt in recent rounds that the races need to be redefined as they originally were. The latest sets of stats are drifting away from the original concepts and allowing a complete blurring of the races.

In my opinion a lot of the targetting isnt quite right and I'm not a fan of a predominantly pirate like race (zik) having to use large ships to do so, I always felt that they were more frigate/destroyer based. No doubt I may put my ideas of defined races somewhere on the boards.

Anyway, I like the original idea as an alternative to races. We need to either define the races properly, or go the tech route.
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Unread 30 Aug 2005, 10:03   #5
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Re: Races

Having a mining trade-off tree (ie one you can only go if you eschew the upper (say) 4k minable roids) would be nice for casual players. Just don't make it something absolutely necessary for play.

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Unread 31 Aug 2005, 00:22   #6
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Re: Races

I like it if the non-combatant stuff wpuld be more race tailored aswell. Like for example more mining advantages for terran, but what comes after core extraction? Eventhough it would make sense if you give terrans more armour, that their ships will be more expensive, and thus you need more resources to build ships.

On the other hand, things like extra armour would gave them the advantage in battle that you need less numbers. So it's diificult.

I do however NOT like the no races option. This will only benefit the select few who trully understand the stats. WHere as the most of the players never take time to study the stats that well.
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Unread 31 Aug 2005, 12:03   #7
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Re: Races

I enjoyed the old style tech branching more than the race selection myself, but my only concern about this is for newer folks.

They wont be able to see even what type of ships they might be facing (of which they can get a rough estimate now due to race being visible) if their target has more dist than they have amps. It could make finding a target very frustrating, and result in them getting their arses handed to them.

Going this way would also increase the importance of good scanners in alliances for the same sort of reason.
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Unread 31 Aug 2005, 12:54   #8
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Re: Races

That's a good point veX. When I origionally came up with the idea, I also suggested splitting the tech tree into primary and secondary, with the secondary researches taking longer and including the core resources, covert ops, scanning, etc, so it was more that amps were a problem than anything else.

How about, as you research the branches, they give you a sort of race.
TBH, researching the 4 trees in all the different ways can be summarised by which technology is level 3, and which technology is level 2.

i.e. a Normal/Steal planet would have level 3 Normal research, level 2 steal, level 1 EMP, and 0 Cloaked technologies. As your researches are completed, it updates the "Race" of your planet to the current highest technolgy you have. If you have 2 technologies the same level, the one you researched first would stay as your "race" or "type".

I still know there's a stats problem with the whole setup, to do with the pod classes and targetting, especially reasons to build the bigger ships for Cathaar and Xan without overpowering them.
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Unread 31 Aug 2005, 13:06   #9
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Re: Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, why stop at ships?





Though i have to say, your idea has some interesting aspects to it. The main problem i see is that (like all ideas that are similar to this) is that you'll end up with the "ideal" fleet, that has the best of both (all) worlds.

.
That doesnt have to happens as far as i see.
If we get the 'this research excludes that research' thingy working, we can effectively block the problem that one can 'pick all the best ships', thus one gets stuck with some less good and only half useable matelchunks.
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Unread 31 Aug 2005, 14:06   #10
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Re: Races

[quote=Appocomaster] /lightbulb[/QUOTE

It could work, and I really would love to see the return of tech trees for some old skool feel if nothing else. Its sort of new in a way aswell, in the sense that we havn't seen this sort of this in a while. Something to keep the game interesting \o/

Is it possible to make it ready for r15 though? seems like a lot of work to me. ]
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Unread 1 Sep 2005, 22:47   #11
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Re: Races

tech trees would be nice.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 09:04   #12
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Re: Races

why not add new race in r16?
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 09:14   #13
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Re: Races

Such as?
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 11:29   #14
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Re: Races

5 races with working stats and all the rest, That is a bit of work required there to make it happen.

One for the pros and boffins
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 13:21   #15
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Re: Races

i quite like this idea tbh yet i think it will be very hard to implement. as balancing stats like that will be very hard, but doable i suppose and will give some change into pa and let's be fair... stats are never really balanced anyways.

i do think you should keep stealing to 1 race then tho but hmmm.

also if this gets implemented you could easily give some "signature" with an attack fleet saying which techs have been done. (F.E. xtsc meaning 1 is xan 2 is ter 3 is steal and 4 is cath, or something like that)

it's getting about time for some nice change again
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 14:08   #16
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Re: Races

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Such as?
well I don't really know...mb half zik, half cat(stealing/freezing ships), that seems interesting to me atm, mb even race (with all FI ships) dunno if that is possible to make out....
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 14:19   #17
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Re: Races

... and with anti ALL init 0,5

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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 15:39   #18
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Re: Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by yada-yada
well I don't really know...mb half zik, half cat(stealing/freezing ships), that seems interesting to me atm, mb even race (with all FI ships) dunno if that is possible to make out....
One idea might be is to have a race that has some shipclasses that fire ships that "convert" enemy ships for that battle in which turn the converted ships fire on the fleet(s) they come from and return back with the orginal fleet a bit like a zik but only tempory.
For example if a terran bs/cr fleet was attacking a planet and there was type of ship that targeted bs class ships and turned a few dragons to fire at the cruisers and the converted ships then returned back with the orginal terran fleet.
How or if this is fesiable to code/program and come up with ships stats (inits) and so forth I have no idea. It is just an idea feel free to shoot it down if it is a bad one.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:16   #19
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Re: Races

It's called subversion, it was around before steal returned r13. Ultimate Newbie particularly favours it - he's mentioned it in a few stats threads about stealing on the boards.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:22   #20
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Re: Races

stealing was round before subversion tbh :P
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:55   #21
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Re: Races

that will be the rounds I missed then
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:58   #22
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Re: Races

any coments on that race half zik/cat mb even add some xan techie, for e.g. race who has few cloaked ships(one fi/fr) few steling ships (co/de) and few freezing ships (cr/bs) mb even add sub insted of cloak, or what u think about race with kamikaze ships for e.g. u build them they target usualy and they have little higher dmg, and if u attack with them u regulary kill enemy army but ur kamikaze ships die to. mb this is way to stupid suggestion, and no1 would like to play with race who loose ships but )?
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 03:18   #23
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Re: Races

How about an "advanced targeting" race? Some normal ships, but some "old school" ships that target 2 classes. To make up for this "advantage", these ships could be slightly less efficient from a resource per armor/weapon basis.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 05:10   #24
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Re: Races

hmm it could be done, but then all other races would target "old school race" as that race couldnt have perfect def with that armor/weapon basis
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 12:59   #25
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Re: Races

The could indeed work, though they would be massively targetted by ziks :P
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 11:26   #26
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Re: Races

Ok the tech tree idea is a good one, but it has two major flaws...
first, as has happened in S***Sphere you can pick and choose what ships you research but generally a mixed fi fleet just pwns and imho one of planetarions major attractions is the versatility and different makeups of incomings.
second, planetarion needs its new player influx to keep going and tbh a tech tree would only scare the people we want away, as it is devised for those of us who have played a while now

Personally i think a fifth race is a step in the right direction, but...the original 4 races must be re defined to what they were...only zik as stealers, xan get the cloaking benefits back, etc. The fifth race would be interesting to see in operation as it would give all the alliances something new to consider. As a suggestion for the fifth race, someone came up with kamikazee ship, why stick to just kamikazee....have the ships set up for low value, then the different ships either kamikazee or steal depending on their class and target....this way for the fifth race the roids would be the most influence on their score..and would add a different tactical edge to the experienced players as they would have defensively minded ships instead of aggressive like most of the other races
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 15:27   #27
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Re: Races

Ooooo I like this idea.

/me rubs Appoco

On another note...Damn you timey...Damn you!! :P
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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 15:42   #28
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Re: Races

i first think of a race that has a complete new sort of ships whitch target all ships BUT i repeat before people say there aint minusses cause there are BUT the ships would have a 85% hit rate on theyre favored class so if i'd make a point a dragon will do 85% of his damage to CR but to other ships it inflicts way less damage 65% whitch makes ofc this a very defencive race
well i like your opinion about this

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Unread 30 Sep 2005, 16:39   #29
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Re: Races

Basically people want more than one target back for ships, it seems. Whether fobbing this off onto a new race or whatever ...

BTW, thinking about the balance of my origional idea, I thought that as Cr and Co don't have pods, there could be general pods. If you research "Normal 3" you get a Co pod - as you don't have a Fi pod.
If you research Cloaked 1 (and perhaps a few others) you get a Cr pod.
This way, it is admittedly slightly more confusing, but everyone ends up with 3 pod classes, one in each ETA block. And it means that we don't get lots of useless ships. The only problem is that there's only 24 normal ships, + 6 pods, + 4 structure killers, which means there's a lot less ships, so we might have to move up to 9 ships / research type or something to even it out. I'm going to try and make some beta stats for my origional tech tree idea, to see how they work out, when there's time.
I don't know that there will be an extra race in the near future, as we'd probably have to end up redefining all the races.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 10:40   #30
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Re: Races

Im new to the game this round, and I must say its fun and addictive. A few ideas for you, and if im just rehashing what others are saying I apoligise, but here goes -

I gather from the little Ive read that races used to be somewhat strictly defined. What if initially, when you first start, it is but evolves with the research you choose to do. So say Zik initially has an inclination for being stealers, and if they follow the standard research for their race grow into that fully,but if they follow another races research options(and due to the fact that its not their natural inclination to do so it takes them x% longer to do that) they come out at the end with a hybrid mix of the two races.The idea essentially is that it takes you longer to reach the full potencial of a hybrid race, but the gain is a fleet with more variety.

In terms of stealing ship, each race should have the ability to do so, but only one the ability to keep and operate them as they are. The other races should be able to convert them to equal value of their own ships, like credits which cant be used for anything else(like buying more roids or building constructions).

And lastly(for now), i think the game could do with a random element to it, say a galactic storm that blows across and lands 50k(for example) of damage to a planet in the form of lost ships,damaged structures or so forth whilst another in the same galaxy receives (x)k in resources left by the storm. The same storm could also blow fleets offcourse and randomly redirect to another planet, or delay/increase eta.


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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 12:09   #31
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Re: Races

actually.. i like the idea of a tech tree defined game.. as it promote a variety of combo and ability.. i like also the 5 race idea.. but i would see it using stealth as a mean to get ships rather than using it as a cloaking shield.. (using covert op and intel operation ) which would open up the covert ability as a race design rather than a rarely use option.. (their ship would be small and fast (probably all fi/co type) with "phasing ability
(fire then vanish)... which would put between the xan and terran for ship init (with low armor but good firepower..
if we do expend the teck tree.. cutting time to research would make sense..
and with tech tree based races.. i see new class of ships.. (having the particularity of the teck tree reasearched) ex tech 1 cloak tech 2 emp and tech 3 normal allowing cloak fi that emp or cloak bs doing normal damage or de that emp+ do % of kill damage..
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Unread 21 Oct 2005, 03:06   #32
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Re: Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Basically people want more than one target back for ships, it seems. Whether fobbing this off onto a new race or whatever ...
The way i see it, if you want to even vaguely resemble the existing offensive style of play in an environment with 2 target classes for all (most/some) ships, then you will need 10 classes in order to get the necessary target dilution (consider; presently to stop all pod classes you need at least 6 Types of ship, not all of which are effective (ie, Gryphon). With 2 class targeting, that now means you may only need three types of ship to get full targeting, which means there are fewer holes to exploit in people's fleets and results in greater difficulty in attacking//stagnation).

So, its either single targeting with 6 classes, or two targets with 10 classes. If you want to follow the 10 classes route, that's fine - i have done quite a bit of work in that area already. Just dont have 6 classes with 2 targets.
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