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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 10:08   #51
The Real Arfy
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Re: Some facts.

I don't enjoy making accusations and of the people I know from Ascendancy I wouldn't actually suspect them of cheating.

However, I'd love to know if, and how often, those 8 players out of tag have been the first to land on Ascendancy planets capping fresh roids and vice versa. This stems from the lack of real explanation for keeping them out of tag.

Obviously this is unlikely due to 80% of the alliance being low value and from what I can see they have held roids for a good few ticks before losing them. Its just something I'm thinking about.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 11:24   #52
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
I don't enjoy making accusations and of the people I know from Ascendancy I wouldn't actually suspect them of cheating.

However, I'd love to know if, and how often, those 8 players out of tag have been the first to land on Ascendancy planets capping fresh roids and vice versa. This stems from the lack of real explanation for keeping them out of tag.

Obviously this is unlikely due to 80% of the alliance being low value and from what I can see they have held roids for a good few ticks before losing them. Its just something I'm thinking about.
You can ask a Multihunter investigate it, but I would be surprised if he wasn't doing/had done it already.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 11:29   #53
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
I don't enjoy making accusations and of the people I know from Ascendancy I wouldn't actually suspect them of cheating.

However, I'd love to know if, and how often, those 8 players out of tag have been the first to land on Ascendancy planets capping fresh roids and vice versa. This stems from the lack of real explanation for keeping them out of tag.

Obviously this is unlikely due to 80% of the alliance being low value and from what I can see they have held roids for a good few ticks before losing them. Its just something I'm thinking about.

lol, ofc they havent attacked other Ascendancy members, low value gives low xp ^^
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 11:30   #54
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Re: Some facts.

They have said that they are not all xp whores with low value...
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 11:31   #55
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
They have said that they are not all xp whores with low value...
And we arenīt. Personally I am top20 on value.
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 13:55   #56
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
I don't enjoy making accusations and of the people I know from Ascendancy I wouldn't actually suspect them of cheating.

However, I'd love to know if, and how often, those 8 players out of tag have been the first to land on Ascendancy planets capping fresh roids and vice versa. This stems from the lack of real explanation for keeping them out of tag.

Obviously this is unlikely due to 80% of the alliance being low value and from what I can see they have held roids for a good few ticks before losing them. Its just something I'm thinking about.
Speaking as an ascendancy member who was out-of-tag, no. Frankly that would be even duller and shitter than landing on the same targets I knew weren't going to get defence again and again and again and again and ag...
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 14:01   #57
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
your large post.
I wont post it again, as it can be read by scrolling up, but well put, well said and a good post.

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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 14:49   #58
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advantix
lol, ofc they havent attacked other Ascendancy members, low value gives low xp ^^
You mean low relative value don't you?
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Unread 12 Mar 2006, 20:28   #59
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Re: Some facts.

Wow, this thread took 2 hours to read..
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fish
Jester creates the most XP friendly stats ever.
Did he intend to? I'm sure all he wanted to do is to balance the value/xp paths of playing so a first spot can be achieved by both. What caused this round to be more XP friendly is the fact that many players went that way. So, their weren't many roids around in the universe to allow the value planets to raech the 8k roids mark, when they will surely outcast an XP-er I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fish
Jester creates an alliance with a huge percentage of XP whores.
I think the goal of this was more of a new exciting way of playing, rather than aiming for a top spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fish
Said alliance hides members and therefore makes its strength look weaker.
SOOOO?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fish
Said alliance adds members and looks set to win the round.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fish
Jester didnt make the stats with the intention of making them value friendly. he knew they were xp friendly, hence he created an alliance of xp whores. He saw they were xp friendly, yet did nothing to change it. This greatly benefits his alliance (mine too).
I think he tried his best to balance them the best. But the last 2 words acutally confuse me, so you benifited from the stats and you are complaining?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fish
Whilst this doesn't personally affect me, being in a 14 man alliance of XP whores, I think its disgraceful what Jester has done, and he certainly should never be allowed near the stats again. For his crimes against PA, I would personally ban him.
What has he done again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
All i know is that after this round i'll stop playing permanently.
This game used to be about war, politics, big battles,...
Now it just matters who can attack best with a fleet as small as possible. It doesn't matter if you get inc, caus you're to small to get attacked by most people and the people that can actually attack you a) will gain shit from attacking you b) will actually do you a favour to lower your value so you can grab more xp.

Shame really, i liked the old game of planetarion, not this new game i call xp-arion
Have you not read that this problem has been noted, and will be fixed next round? I suggest you stop playing this round, and take a holiday till the next one BTW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
While I didn't agree with this prior to this round, I agree now. Mostly because I think whoever makes stats should be spared the whining of idiots such as yourself.
That can only show what bad lemons some people are.. The community simply wants it that the one who makes the stats shouldn't win the round.. Which of course IMHO is false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
The stats were public, but just because the stats are public does not mean that everyone has the same grasp of how they work. If Jester had any experience making stats for a game prior to this then it does not show at all. If I was him I would be ashamed for firstly making such unbalanced stats, and secondly partaking in an alliance that may of cost this game players. Personally I don’t care as this does not affect me or DLR in any way shape or form. I just am worried about the damage jester has done to this game. Perhaps only 50 serious players will leave and not come back? In a game that is already struggling for a member base that’s 50 on top of however many just are naturally giving up.
What confuses me most, is that you and other DLR members (Appearently) are the only ones who're complaining. And you still, do say that you're worried about the community. Well, guess what, I think it will survive. (If the community we're talking about was to desert this place for such a will-be-fixed error, then it doesn't deserve to be called with that word).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
I’ve made stats for games far more complicated than Planetarion and they are still used by the respective communities today. One game still uses my altered stats close to 5 years after there initial introduction. Why? Because I strived for balance.
In what way does that relate to the topic in hand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
Jester CLEARLY did not strive for balance and if anyone claims that just because the stats are public that, that is a balance onto it’s self is clearly inexperienced. When you create stats you can not alter the game engine so you must be aware of the limitations of the engine and work with the stats to compliment and enhance. Instead all these stats do was exploit a flaw in the engine.
As I said above, I'm sure that wasn't his intention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
A flaw that not everyone knew about but Jester clearly did. A flaw that the avg person playing would never know about because they don’t know clearly how the game engine works. Jester did, DLR did. DLR did not exploit the engine. DLR exploited the stats in terms of getting the best roiding fleets, which we do everyround. We didn’t even alter our core game play, attack, Attack, Attack. Ascendancy exploited the stats the engine and the community. I am not bitter about this but I am aware of it.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but didnt you use it, too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
In the end Ascendancy is the best alliance ever created for a single round. It manipulated with the best of them. It used deceit and misdirection. It won by the means set before it by one of it’s own members. They are the winners of this round. They are cocky and arrogant and they have a right to be because no one saw this coming. It was a master stroke, and I can’t help but admit that I am impressed. However I am unimpressed that a group of players would harm the game so explicitly. To which I say congratulations for winning the round and to helping destroy the game and community you so illy profess to love and care about.
To be honest, you seem to be the only one destroyed around here
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Ignoring the fact that there are/were always idiots whining about xp part way through the round, this is the first round where someone who isnt dedicating all their spare time to this game to do well. If the change was serious, it would be like getting rid of xp, or reducing its effect to 1/10th of what it is.
I think things here might get a little unfair, people who spend both their time and skill should have better outcome that those who'd only spend 'skill' (However you define that).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
I hate people who use the term 'abuse of xp'. How are they mis-using xp? Even you get xp when you land your attacks, its no different to what 'xp-whores' get, except they get more of it because they attack well.
Attack well? Clearly this round, you dont need skill to do that, just buils some BS (Ter), attack and go to bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
Doing something for the community does not automatically imply that the person is a saint nor does it mean that the things he has done for the community have caused it to grow and prosper.
But it means that that person is ready to sacrifice his time for the good of this game, without anything in return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
The road to hell is paved with good intensions. If you perform a community service like balancing the stats and they come out in such a blatantly bad manner then yes you deserve what you get as far ad public out cry and I think Jester knows this.
I think you are complaining more of the fact that his alliance won the round, than that the stats were unbalanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
it’s shame that now all that he has done before will be less remembered compared to that which he has done now. It is sad but both nature for people to remember the bad before the good.
Don't generalize without evidences. I'm sure many people won't change the image of him inside their minds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l
At least itt Rob admits he doesn't give a shit about the game or people within it ( regardless of who they are)
You're a little exaggerating their, I think.

P.S. No hard feelings to anyone.. I just find it so childish for some members around here to whine about this, espiecially when they saw Asc taking the first rank <--- They didn't mind before.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 00:57   #60
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Re: Some facts.

I believe people who have criticised Rob, Jester and other Ascendancy members on this thread need to consider this:

Do players of a game have any duty of care to the overall community that has grown around the game?

Personally I find the idea preposterous and, in my opinion, anyone placing the responsibility for this fiasco on a player or group of players is suffering a serious breakdown in logic. As for where the blame does lie, I'd rather not waste my metaphoric breath.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 02:56   #61
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Because we all know accusations from internet retards are a good reason for making a decision!

I apologise for flaming, but there's really no other response worth making.
You could have posted an argument instead of flaming, but choose not too. Or maybe you didnt have one.

Why a moderated have not deleted your post since it's an obvious breech of the rules is.... well, a bit strange perhaps?

Or perhaps not.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 03:09   #62
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
You could have posted an argument instead of flaming, but choose not too. Or maybe you didnt have one.

Why a moderated have not deleted your post since it's an obvious breech of the rules is.... well, a bit strange perhaps?

Or perhaps not.
Or perhaps you could lend yourself to the posts he's made a real effort to put together in the thread. The mods are more than capable of doing their jobs, they don't need prompting. I know there's much more interesting ideas in the thread you could contribute to.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 04:15   #63
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Re: Some facts.

FYI. Jester didnt made r15 stats and tbh i may not have played r15 but just looking at it, its clear as sunshine that r15 stats is more XP based than this round's stats.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 07:49   #64
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Re: Some facts.

Personally I am pleased that people playing purely for XP look like winning the round - I think it shows a lot of skill for people to analyse a games mechanics and stats and to win.

People should NOT assume that the game is the same in every round and that the same tactics will work.

I believe that for the top end of the game radically changing the game from round to round in terms of mechanics and stats will help to show which players really are the best (in terms of knowledge and understanding of the game i.e. their skill), however the problem is it was definatly not what we wnated in a free round where we want new players to join. While its not a direct problem as such the problem is more that even pateam did not udnerstand the stats. If stats are created that favour one style of play over another (in this case XP) then the best style of play should be clearly described in the manual so that new players know what they are meant to do to succeed (and so that alliance know what to tell their players to do).

Incidentally - and XP based playing style might actually be better than a value based one for new players had they known how to play the game...

I think whoever produces the stats for next round should before even producing them have to produce a document saying what they want the stats to do so that pateam can make the manual relfect how the game should be played with the stats.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 08:31   #65
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I think whoever produces the stats for next round should before even producing them have to produce a document saying what they want the stats to do so that pateam can make the manual relfect how the game should be played with the stats.
Its probably a good idea in general, but from what has been said in this thread it seems that it wouldnt have changed anything about this round because this wasnt predicted as an outcome even by those who made/participated in the stats (conspiracy theories aside).

Actually - wouldnt it be better if Pateam wrote down which playstyle they want the stats to favor for next round and people doing stats or participating in doing them have to clearly show in example calculations why their stats/changes fullfill the given goal?

On a sidenote about the "the stats where openly visible and everybody could have seen it". I cant judge it about this rounds stat (havent looked at them) and maybe the PA community is large enough and has enough highly skilled people who actually can do that but once upon a time, i wrote a so called "Battle advisor" for PA and clones. You give it a specific goal and resources and it calculates a list of optimal ways how to achieve your goal. At least twice this has found new tactics in well known stats and enabled us to dominate the round in a clone.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 08:57   #66
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Re: Some facts.

I think its more a case of Acsendancy wanting to play an easy round, i.e. not caring about their roids. Terran has always been the best race to do this with, no question there. I can't imagine that had the stats favoured value alot more, that they would form an unorganised alliance with little to no defence and solo'ing all day long. Same goes for reinvented - we wanted a round where we could relax. We decided this long before the round started.

We are all just playing the game we enjoy most and you can bet that most people would rather just quit than turn to XP/value/whatever because its dull for them.

How many of you believe that Rob/Jester/bwtmc saw the hole in the stats and then said "hey, lets make an alliance". Ascendancy was probably decided long before the stats came out.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 10:46   #67
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Re: Some facts.

The date the channel was made might be a decent indication, iirc I was still playing R15 at the time. That came some weeks after the concept (Jester/Rob/JBG/Lokken etc have explained on numerous occasions) was discussed though. I haven't been able to see much of reinVENted but I'm content to say the friends I do have in there seem to be enjoying themselves a lot more than in previous rounds. This more community-based model for an alliance certainly does have some merit.

As has been explained endlessly, absolutely endlessly, the stats haven't defined the round. Such an alliance, (with enough members relative to the upper limit) would have been successful in both R13 and R15. The balance of politics, the shift of a rather large number of players to a more individually centred style of play and the implications of a non-fatigued group of players attacking offensively have been much more influential. The stats are largely irrelevant. The only 'hole' to speak of is that both DE & BS can be landed (suicidally) on a Zik at the start of the game (or a Zik with an offensively orientated fleet later on). Many Ters on this forum, Rob for example have found this less sustainable, less useful than attacking Xans for example. As for the supposed over-powering of Battleships (with reference to armour and the fact that they can hit all the ships that harm them) that's comical really. The playing style that seems to be disliked doesn't involve smashing the defending ships (Also black widows are Frigates)

My battery's dead now, so I'll leave it at half a post \o/ Most of the above has been reiterated but time and time again, not absorbed by many though :\
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 10:54   #68
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
I think its more a case of Acsendancy wanting to play an easy round, i.e. not caring about their roids. Terran has always been the best race to do this with, no question there. I can't imagine that had the stats favoured value alot more, that they would form an unorganised alliance with little to no defence and solo'ing all day long. Same goes for reinvented - we wanted a round where we could relax. We decided this long before the round started.

We are all just playing the game we enjoy most and you can bet that most people would rather just quit than turn to XP/value/whatever because its dull for them.

How many of you believe that Rob/Jester/bwtmc saw the hole in the stats and then said "hey, lets make an alliance". Ascendancy was probably decided long before the stats came out.
I think you are about right with your post, just that i think that we still wouldnt care even in a round that is more about value. I expected that defence becomes a lot bigger problem on my attacks this round and that we have to start organised attacks with multiple waves as soon as possible to make up the disadvantage of our small fleets and just swarm galaxies until they are out of anti BS for example ... but it was really not needed. In a round that favours defence this is probably different.

Imo we have to be careful that we dont come from one extreme to the other and that we change things where we cant estimate the outcome.

Even as value-player the question you ask before you land an attack with losses :"how much score do you gain from XP?" - in a round with better stats for defence and a lot reduced defence especially in the higher ranks where it comes more and more likely that your targets get defence i can easily end it in a "oh there is 1 defence fleet - let's better recall before i ruin my value"- situation.

We dont want stagnation but we dont want to reward the initiative to land attacks by XP - we have a problem here i think
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 11:56   #69
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Re: Some facts.

Eventhough I'm not always a big fan of Jester, I can't possibly start to believe that he intentionally fixed the stats so it'd suit his own new alliance. IF this was the case, what pride would he take with it knowing that he won because he fixed the stats rather then winning because he deserved to?

No, all you can blame Jester for is not being able to set up balanced stats. So what, he's just human like the rest of us and I bet nobody here would manage to put forth better balanced stats because I'm convinced Jester did not know upfront that the round would be like this.

I do agree that in the future the stats should be made by pple that aren't playing in an alliance or are associated with one. Not because I'd question Jester's integrity, but more so to avoid having pathetic discussions like this.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 12:25   #70
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Eventhough I'm not always a big fan of Jester, I can't possibly start to believe that he intentionally fixed the stats so it'd suit his own new alliance. IF this was the case, what pride would he take with it knowing that he won because he fixed the stats rather then winning because he deserved to?

No, all you can blame Jester for is not being able to set up balanced stats. So what, he's just human like the rest of us and I bet nobody here would manage to put forth better balanced stats because I'm convinced Jester did not know upfront that the round would be like this.

I do agree that in the future the stats should be made by pple that aren't playing in an alliance or are associated with one. Not because I'd question Jester's integrity, but more so to avoid having pathetic discussions like this.
I am sorry. i cannot see how the stats are unbalanced. EVen cath isn't horrible. They are just horrible, because they hardly get defence. I see some huge caths around, because they get defence, as every race would be huge for this simple fact. The cath get the short end of the stick because they can't kill. Doesn't mean the stats are unbalanced. Just means people go for the easier roids. BS and DE are tough, but even with FR I have landed for free roids almost everytime. I have not lost a CO in an attack yet I think. Its not the stats, its the people who play them.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 12:34   #71
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
I am sorry. i cannot see how the stats are unbalanced. EVen cath isn't horrible. They are just horrible, because they hardly get defence. I see some huge caths around, because they get defence, as every race would be huge for this simple fact. The cath get the short end of the stick because they can't kill. Doesn't mean the stats are unbalanced. Just means people go for the easier roids. BS and DE are tough, but even with FR I have landed for free roids almost everytime. I have not lost a CO in an attack yet I think. Its not the stats, its the people who play them.
I'm top100 on value and on roids ... You can't claim I'm not playing well. When I meant unbalanced, I didn't mean that one race is far better then another. I meant to say the entire PA system of this round is unbalanced because it greatly favours the XP players. If it didn't, my top100 on value and roids would have been translated into a higher XP rank then I have now, given that I attack twice a night (but gain far less due to my own high value).
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 12:38   #72
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Re: Some facts.

What Kj said. The stats are far too offensive this round. I very rarely have to pull my BS fleets, doesnt matter who I attack, its just so hard to stop, requires so much res to stop it being profitable for me.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 12:49   #73
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Re: Some facts.

On that aspect, I can agree.
Defense really was a killer this round. Seems the more defence you got, the less XP you got because you were mining your roids. In our gal, the person who got roided the most, is the highest ranking in the gal. This round surely supported attacking, more so that defending.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 12:58   #74
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
On that aspect, I can agree.
Defense really was a killer this round. Seems the more defence you got, the less XP you got because you were mining your roids. In our gal, the person who got roided the most, is the highest ranking in the gal. This round surely supported attacking, more so that defending.
Attacking should be supported more then defending. This is a wargame after all. It's just that this round the difference between both has reached new heights. Defense has more or less become obsolete. Infact, I'd dare to claim that it often harms your alliance (this round) in a way that the fleet could've been used for attacking hence gaining XP.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 13:01   #75
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Re: Some facts.

Do the time warp!

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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 13:19   #76
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Re: Some facts.

FATALITY
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 13:31   #77
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Re: Some facts.

I appreciate the thoughts Kj/Chika` you've put down. I still think you're missing the main point though, probably.

Aside from the political collapse of Round 14, the stats in the last three rounds would've had JUST the same result given competitive politics were present and such an alliance had an 80% full tag.

So no, this has NOTHING to do with the stats. (I can see why you think it does, I just completely disagree that it has much bearing on the round at all). The last two rounds I've ended with ~15 million value and more. BS isn't "too hard to stop" within the framework of the stats, the course the round has taken has made it appear so.

As has been said over and over, Ascendancy players were free to play as they wished. They have more XP than other alliances because many of those players chose to take that route, many didn't too. What we're really debating is the choice of these players (and by these, I consider DLR's intentions pre-round, reinVENted's most common style of play and any individuals that chose to play this way, I don't mean the collective with more of the more successful XP based players than others), to attack and not defend, etc.

The problem has been evident for rounds, this round has showcased it brilliantly because several factors supporting this style of play all came in at once. If one alliance had been more dominant the rankings would be overran by value players from that alliance (and galaxies they find friendly). And the problem lies in the Scoring system, I think it lacks enough depth to create a good base for the game. Introduction of XP for defence for example, will change that somewhat.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 13:47   #78
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
I appreciate the thoughts Kj/Chika` you've put down. I still think you're missing the main point though, probably.

Aside from the political collapse of Round 14, the stats in the last three rounds would've had JUST the same result given competitive politics were present and such an alliance had an 80% full tag.

So no, this has NOTHING to do with the stats. (I can see why you think it does, I just completely disagree that it has much bearing on the round at all). The last two rounds I've ended with ~15 million value and more. BS isn't "too hard to stop" within the framework of the stats, the course the round has taken has made it appear so.

As has been said over and over, Ascendancy players were free to play as they wished. They have more XP than other alliances because many of those players chose to take that route, many didn't too. What we're really debating is the choice of these players (and by these, I consider DLR's intentions pre-round, reinVENted's most common style of play and any individuals that chose to play this way, I don't mean the collective with more of the more successful XP based players than others), to attack and not defend, etc.

The problem has been evident for rounds, this round has showcased it brilliantly because several factors supporting this style of play all came in at once. If one alliance had been more dominant the rankings would be overran by value players from that alliance (and galaxies they find friendly). And the problem lies in the Scoring system, I think it lacks enough depth to create a good base for the game. Introduction of XP for defence for example, will change that somewhat.
I think you missunderstood me. I'm not complaining about the inability to defend against certain ships. BS's are easy to cover. In the early stage, I had loads and loads of uncovered BS incs. Since I built quite a decent anti BS fleet, I've had not a single BS flying my way in about 4 weeks now.
Let's be honnest, no matter what your fleet is, you can and will always be roided by a fleet which has alot of certain ships hence being able to get through.

But like I said, I've not complained about any of that. My point is that in my own situation (being top100 on value and roids), I gain far less XP when I hit a high value planet, while an XP player with not even half my value will gain over double the amount of XP then I'd gain.
Maybe this issue is around for longer then just this round. But this round it became obvious more then ever.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:07   #79
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Do the time warp!
The difference is that Sid was totally honest about his intentions from the word go.

Whether or not Jester intended his alliance to win and manipulated stats to suit this, I will never know. You seem to be missing my anger. Its the sneaky way things were done.

Yeah to take the spotlight off you blabla.


edit: I would have no problems or complaints had Ascendancy added its members from an early stage.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:24   #80
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Thumbs down Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
edit: I would have no problems or complaints had Ascendancy added its members from an early stage.
Listen to yourself. You sound like a big baby.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:30   #81
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Re: Some facts.

Have they borken the rules by doing that, Fish?

P.S. I'm 'not' playing this round, for all those who bet am Asc lol..
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:31   #82
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Re: Some facts.

Surely it would make sense just to complain about just that then. Thanks for clarifying that your real problem with this round is that Ascendancy are winning and not anything more well-founded/important/interesting.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:33   #83
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Re: Some facts.

no they haven't x.

Good work reading bwtmc.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:45   #84
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Re: Some facts (and fiction)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
Jester didnt make the stats with the intention of making them value friendly. he knew they were xp friendly, hence he created an alliance of xp whores. He saw they were xp friendly, yet did nothing to change it. This greatly benefits his alliance (mine too).

..

I think its disgraceful what Jester has done, and he certainly should never be allowed near the stats again. For his crimes against PA, I would personally ban him.
I thought as much. And so, why the need for slander and unfounded accusations (that have been widely discredited) on the forums?

Ironically most of the above is fiction, but that's been gone through eh.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:54   #85
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Re: Some facts.

In my opinion all of Ascendancy should delete their planets after letting them be roided by me and people of my choice!

I mean it's the only fair way to decide the winner of the round!

It's HONOURABLE.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:54   #86
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
The difference is that Sid was totally honest about his intentions from the word go.

Whether or not Jester intended his alliance to win and manipulated stats to suit this, I will never know. You seem to be missing my anger. Its the sneaky way things were done.

Yeah to take the spotlight off you blabla.


edit: I would have no problems or complaints had Ascendancy added its members from an early stage.
Stop posting. For your own sake more than anyone else's. You just executed the most blatantly obvious case of "shifting the goalposts" I have ever seen. It's not even a question of honesty, it was in the best interests of 1up in r11 to have all their members in the tag ingame. It wasn't in ascendancy's in r16.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 14:59   #87
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
In my opinion all of Ascendancy should delete their planets after letting them be roided by me and people of my choice!

I mean it's the only fair way to decide the winner of the round!

It's HONOURABLE.
too much effort.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 15:29   #88
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
The stats are far too offensive this round.
I agree, but I think many things in addition to stats factored into that.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 15:33   #89
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
In my opinion all of Ascendancy should delete their planets after letting them be roided by me and people of my choice!

I mean it's the only fair way to decide the winner of the round!

It's HONOURABLE.
I looked for a delete planet button but I couldn't find it :((((
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 16:06   #90
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
Yet every imbalance that was clearly seen by DLR and pointed too was always shrugged off.
This is bullshit. As you can see of that thread, I took Gate's posts very seriously, including agreeing that Terran was too powerful. Unfortunately, I compensated incorrectly by only removing their 'powerful' defensive options instead of balancing the attack fleet. In hindsight, the most obvious gaff of the stats is that the Rogue fires on CR rather than BS. That, along with both the Tula and Roach having to compete with attack fleets on all 3 other races.

I encourage PAteam and whoever is submitting stats for next round to work as an iteration of this round's or a previous round's stats, rather than starting from the ground up. As tempting as it is to create your own vision of the stats, you're better off standing on the shoulders of gimps.

I find your complaints that PAteam is unduly influenced by a certain clique amusing, as I had the exact same complaints back in round 5, just before I was (to my great surprise) invited to join Petru's little stat creation team. I have never before seen a post on stats from you, and can rarely remember seeing you post on the Suggestions forum, so I must wonder if in fact no one is listening, or if you're just not talking.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 16:19   #91
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Would it shock people if I said wasn't happy with how the stats ended up turning out? Because I'm not. But I think part of the badness of balance comes from underestimating the impact of the new alliance limit combined with the amount of playing who chose purely attacking strategies.

In my opinion you, as part of DLR, have to take a share of the blame for the round turning out like it did.
I’m not in any way implying what Fish is, but did you realise when you finalised the stats that you had, combined with the low ally count, made the xp-whore strategy much stronger? Did you knowingly make the stats so it would benefit an xp strategy in an attempt to make it more beneficial to xp-whore?
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 16:31   #92
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Aside from the political collapse of Round 14, the stats in the last three rounds would've had JUST the same result given competitive politics were present and such an alliance had an 80% full tag.

So no, this has NOTHING to do with the stats. (I can see why you think it does, I just completely disagree that it has much bearing on the round at all). The last two rounds I've ended with ~15 million value and more. BS isn't "too hard to stop" within the framework of the stats, the course the round has taken has made it appear so.

As has been said over and over, Ascendancy players were free to play as they wished. They have more XP than other alliances because many of those players chose to take that route, many didn't too. What we're really debating is the choice of these players (and by these, I consider DLR's intentions pre-round, reinVENted's most common style of play and any individuals that chose to play this way, I don't mean the collective with more of the more successful XP based players than others), to attack and not defend, etc.

The problem has been evident for rounds, this round has showcased it brilliantly because several factors supporting this style of play all came in at once. If one alliance had been more dominant the rankings would be overran by value players from that alliance (and galaxies they find friendly). And the problem lies in the Scoring system, I think it lacks enough depth to create a good base for the game. Introduction of XP for defence for example, will change that somewhat.
Treveler, do you think that with a fifty-five man limit what's happened this round couldn't have been the result with last round's stats? If not, I'd love to know why. I've re-looked at the stats again for reference, might be useful for you to do the same to make good judgement on the above.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 16:40   #93
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Re: Some facts.

Well its hard to say what had the biggest effect between the ally count and the changes in the stats. Maybe an all out xp-whore alliance could have done as well last round as this round. I would still want to know if Jester knowingly tweaked the stats to make it more xp-friendly.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 16:43   #94
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Re: Some facts.

Could you explain why you think this round's stats are more xp-friendly than last round?
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 16:52   #95
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Re: Some facts.

To quote from the comments made about the final stats:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chika
Jester good ****ing job with the stats!! Remember, initially it was my suggestion that you do them*, but you tried to act tough about it. Anyway, I can see a reason why I could play any of the races, and thats how the stats should be every round. No one race should dominate, and all should be playable. I particulary like caths. They are ace in so many ways.
Thanks though, I know it takes a lot of work.


*If it is widely agreed later on that the stats suck. No it was not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Yeah, drop init on Harpy.. Remember, Terrans are the race the new players likes best. Atm it seems to get murdered in every department.
(denied)
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 17:03   #96
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Re: Some facts.

I`m no stat expert and I dont have the time to sit down and do calculations to prove that this is the case, but the success of xp-whoring this round compared to last should at least imply that this round is more xp-friendly or do you suggest that it has all to do with the low ally count?
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 17:05   #97
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I`m no stat expert and I dont have the time to sit down and do calculations to prove that this is the case, but the success of xp-whoring this round compared to last should at least imply that this round is more xp-friendly or do you suggest that it has all to do with the low ally count?
I'd say above all else it's to do with the fact that more people tried to be xp whores this round.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 17:06   #98
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Well its hard to say what had the biggest effect between the ally count and the changes in the stats. Maybe an all out xp-whore alliance could have done as well last round as this round. I would still want to know if Jester knowingly tweaked the stats to make it more xp-friendly.
Jester definitely tweaked the stats to our advantage. He also trained us on hit-and-run tactics so that we could run around the corner, smack you all in the face and hide again. He also invented the internet so that we could perform what we did. I also heard Jester paid Jolt so Jolt could afford buying and running Planetarion just because he wanted to kick your asses. Accidentally our average age in Ascendancy is 23 since our great Illuminati leader Jester planned this big conspiracy.

You idiots. Grow up and get over it, for ****s sake.

edit: spelling.
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 17:11   #99
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Jester definitely tweaked the stats to our advantage. He also trained us on hit-and-run tactics so that we could run around the corner, smack you all in the face and hide again. He also invented the internet so that we could perform what we did. I also heard Jester paid Jolt so Jolt could afford buying and running Planetarion just because he wanted to kick your asses. Accidentally our average age in Ascendancy is 23 since our great Illuminati leader Jester planned this big conspiracy.

You idiots. Grow up and get over it, for ****s sake.

edit: spelling.
You must remember to take the blue pill BEFORE the yellow one just like the doc told you. Now go stay in the corner like the twat you are please!
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Unread 13 Mar 2006, 17:15   #100
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Re: Some facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'd say above all else it's to do with the fact that more people tried to be xp whores this round.
Maybe, but its hard to say for sure. Its exstreamly hard to defend this round and another point is that up to a certain point the more that xp-whore the more effective it is as there is more attack fleets flying and less chance to see def.
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