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Unread 7 May 2005, 16:40   #1
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Diet improves behaviour

I just read this article.

It's amazing how much improvement there is shown in disruptive children and convicted criminals when their diet is changed to include more Omega-3 oils.

Quote:
She studied more than 100 children of normal ability in mainstream schools in County Durham, who were underachieving and suspected of being dyspraxic - that is of having problems with coordination or motor skills. In some cases, the children were also disruptive.

Once they had been assessed, they were divided into two groups for a randomised double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Half of them were given fish oils high in Omega-3 essential fats for three months. The other half were given placebos. Some 40% of the children given supplements made dramatic improvements in reading and spelling, averaging progress of more than nine months in just three months. The control group made just the normal progress of three months
...

The implications of a study conducted by another researcher in Stein's department are even more startling. In another randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, Bernard Gesch gave a course of supplements containing essential fatty acids and key vitamins and minerals to prisoners in one of Britain's maximum security prisons. The inmates were responsible for some of the highest levels of prison violence in the UK. The number of serious offences, including violence, by the prisoners, fell by nearly 40% in those taking the supplements but not at all in those not taking them.
There's a few things this brings up in my mind.

Is the shitty diet we're eating now one of the causes for the increase in disruptive behaviour in schools and anti-social behaviour on the streets?
Is it a reason why dyslexia, autism etc have increased?
Could you use your diet to defend your actions?*

Surely studies like this should be followed up with changes in the diet of school kids and prisoners.

Do you have any ideas of how we can use this research to improve things?
Oh and any recipes would be useful too







*"I only hit my wife because she's been cooking me meals with not enough nutrients in"
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Unread 7 May 2005, 16:52   #2
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Question Re: Diet improves behaviour

Does anyone else think Dr Robert Winston is probably a child abuser?
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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:07   #3
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Exclamation Re: Diet improves behaviour

Look at him and tell me you don't think there's evil in that man's heart.
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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:10   #4
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Leave Harold Shipman out of this
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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:10   #5
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Says this man

now stop fagging up my thread.
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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:11   #6
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

It's Saddam Hussein's 'not as EVIL' twin !!!!!

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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:12   #7
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Says this man

now stop fagging up my thread.
Look, it's Rodney the plonker !

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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:23   #8
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

diet could be the answer to all our social problems

or

once again we could be looking desperately for a 'quick fix' in our disposable blame culture where any placebo will do.
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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:38   #9
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Exclamation Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
now stop fagging up my thread.
But the original point was much less interesting than insulting Robert Winston.
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Unread 7 May 2005, 17:50   #10
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
diet could be the answer to all our social problems

or

once again we could be looking desperately for a 'quick fix' in our disposable blame culture where any placebo will do.
i didn't say it was the reason.
I said a reason and one of the causes.
Do you disagree or do you just not care?

oh and MM - I think it's interesting
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Unread 8 May 2005, 15:27   #11
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

I have seen close hand the dramatic effect diet has on children.

In fact, diet is now one of the first things looked at by childcare professionals, when looking at SEN (special educational need) children, and behavioural children, and often is a part solution to prolems.

It is NEVER a full solution, but is certainly a valid cause that has effect when changed.

On a simpler level, how many children arent allowed fizzy drink these days because of there behaviour?

The answer, a hell of a lot.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 02:20   #12
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Anyone with a moustache like that is a serious candidate for being a kiddy-fiddler in my book...
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Unread 9 May 2005, 08:41   #13
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Is it a reason why dyslexia, autism etc have increased?
The rest maybe, but I doubt it'd be anything to do with this.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 09:16   #14
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
everything affects everything. some stuff influence other things more than some other things, but if i go to the bathroom now, i'm affecting someone, somehow.
It's called the "butterfly effect" like in the "chaos theory".
When you eat just a tiny a butterfly you suddenly get twice as fat.


Or something like that.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 09:28   #15
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
It's called the "butterfly effect" like in the "chaos theory".
When you eat just a tiny a butterfly you suddenly get twice as fat.


Or something like that.
"In any "chaotic" system, any slight derivations between two sets of conditions will produce larger derivations over time".

The butterly doesn't create the hurricane, it causes our predictions based on a deterministic system to become wildly inaccurate over time, which is represented by an unpredicted hurricane in this example.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 09:59   #16
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

I never interpreted the "butterfly-saying" like that.
I always believed that it meant to say that even the smallest factor can have a huge influence on the big system. Thus that any prediction that does not factor in everything that has an influence on the outcome is just inaccurate and actually makes something chaotic, is just logical.
I agree that the butterfly does not create the hurricane alone, but it has an influence, and whether that is over time or instant is irrelevant in my opinion.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 10:06   #17
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_horn
it might not be the lone factor in causing the hurricane, nor does chaos theory say it is (iirc).
It's almost certainly nothing to do with the hurricane at all, other than it caused a slight change which caused a slightly larger change and so on. Of course, given I said that the butterfly doesn't cause the hurricane, I'm quite at a loss what you're replying to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_horn
While our predictions BASED on a deterministic system might be flawed, it does nothing to discredit the deterministic system in the first place.
Our deterministic models are fine in the short term (usually), but I think showing that you can't make a basic deterministic approximation, at any level, of a chaotic system rather limits the effectiveness of even classical determinism.

Oh, and you're not defending laplacian determinism, are you?
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Unread 9 May 2005, 10:07   #18
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
I never interpreted the "butterfly-saying" like that.
I always believed that it meant to say that even the smallest factor can have a huge influence on the big system. Thus that any prediction that does not factor in everything that has an influence on the outcome is just inaccurate and actually makes something chaotic, is just logical.
I'll reply to this when I get back.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 10:31   #19
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_horn
i don't know what laplacian determinism is, but it sounds pretty.
http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/freewill1.htm
Quote:
By "all the forces that animate Nature", Laplace means "the laws of nature". And by "[knowing] the mutual positions of the beings that comprise it [i.e. Nature]", Laplace means "having a 'snapshot' description of the position and motion (at some instant of time) of every object in the universe".

This view – which, naturally, came to be called "Laplacian Determinism" – was widely adopted by many scientists and philosophers until early in the Twentieth Century. It is the view that the entire future course of the universe is 'laid out' as a consequence of two factors: (1) the laws of nature, and (2) the state of the universe at any one moment of time.
It means that as long as you know ALL factors you can calculate the future by applying the laws of nature.
This makes "free will" non-existant.

Although many will disagree with that, I believe it has some truth in it. I believe that up to some point everyones behaviour is determined by inputs from their environment, and past inputs, and behaviour in a certain situation can be calculated by these factors. There was a discussion about neural networks in the tech-forum a while ago about manners to model a "brain", and although complex, I do believe it is possible.
Calculating an entire world... well... if you can model it, it should be possible.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 11:52   #20
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_horn
my point is that it DOES have something to do with the hurricane, no matter how small....... that's what i was replying to.
The hurricane is formed utterly independently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_horn
The reason deterministic models work in the short term and may be flawed in the long term, is because to produce a 100% accurate prediction you would need to factor in EVERYTHING, which is clearly impossible. I can't say i've conducted any experiments, but i would be supprised if there was not a correlation between accuracy in a deterministic prediction and the amount of correct data used to form it
One of the first demonstrations of Chaos theory was in a computer which modelled some weather patterns. At one point, part of the sequence had to be run again.

Instead of the 6 sig fig value they were using, they inputted a 3 sig fig value, which differed from the original in the order of 50 parts per million. The results were wildly different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
Although many will disagree with that, I believe it has some truth in it.
Laplacian determinism doesn't exist. Quantum theory disproves it.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 12:25   #21
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Laplacian determinism doesn't exist. Quantum theory disproves it.
As to my defence: I know nothing about quantum theory.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 12:39   #22
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Afaik the omega 3 thing isnt a result of 'bad' diet per se. The important factor is your ratio of omega 6 fats to omega 3's, and this is what is screwed up in most people. It doesnt help that when people here they need to get more 'healthy fats' they go out and eat more omega 6, screwing the balance up even further. Neither omega 3 nor omega 6 are 'bad' though, and both are fairly essential.

PS The butterfly effect is used to illustrate the fact that a butterfly could (theoretically) 'cause' a hurricane, since the behavior of the system is (supposedly) highly susceptible to slight variations in the initial conditions to the extent that the mild vibrations from a butterfly's wings could cause drastic changes in the long run. It depends what you mean by ''cause'' here though - if you mean that without the butterfly the hurricane wouldnt have happened, then I suppose you could say the butterfly ''caused'' it, but this is a fairly nonstandard use of causation discourse since then you'd be committed to wacky claims like "if a person hits someone on the road and kills them, the accident was partially caused by his toaster manufacturer, since if the toaster was faster he would have left the house 10 seconds earlier and wouldnt have been in the accident". I'm sure there was a film based on this but I've no idea what its called.

PPS metaphysical randomness isnt inherant in quantum theory so 'quantum theory disproves laplacian determinism' is false (as is laplacian determinism, coincidentally).
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Unread 9 May 2005, 12:57   #23
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
PPS metaphysical randomness isnt inherant in quantum theory so 'quantum theory disproves laplacian determinism' is false (as is laplacian determinism, coincidentally).
What do you mean by this exactly? I think it's a fairly key element of quantum mechanics that you can't know both the position and velocity of a particle. Obviously there's some sort of room for pedantism over "well you just can't know both velocity and position but they really do have definite positions and velocities" but this is the sort of un-empirical drivel that gives science a really bad name and makes scientists cry themselves to sleep at night and we don't want that do we
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:02   #24
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What do you mean by this exactly? I think it's a fairly key element of quantum mechanics that you can't know both the position and velocity of a particle. Obviously there's some sort of room for pedantism over "well you just can't know both velocity and position but they really do have definite positions and velocities" but this is the sort of un-empirical drivel that gives science a really bad name and makes scientists cry themselves to sleep at night and we don't want that do we
Oh wait... this was with the cat and radiation in the box thing, no? You can't determine the state of something unless you take a second peek in the box.
You can't determine the velocity of a particle without taking a second snapshot at a different time... why you can't know the position then I don't understand... Please tell me!
There's still so much to learn.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:03   #25
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

if my diet was only beer i don't think it'd improve my behaviour guys!
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:10   #26
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
Oh wait... this was with the cat and radiation in the box thing, no? You can't determine the state of something unless you take a second peek in the box.
You can't determine the velocity of a particle without taking a second snapshot at a different time... why you can't know the position then I don't understand... Please tell me!
There's still so much to learn.
You can know the velocity but not the position or the position but not the velocity. You can only know one because measuring interfers with the other. Quantum theory also indicates that particles don't have exact positions or velocities until they are measured. So if you measure the velocity you can never know the position and vice versa. Really basically.


I was reading about a pretty interesting theory considering matter transportation where a viable method of duplicating every particle (match it's velocity, spin, type) to form the exact same object far away from the "original" but you don't actually gain any knowledge so I'm pretty sure it doesn't violate any laws and such.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:24   #27
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Oh yeah, that was it... if you opened the box you interfered with the radioactive particle inside the box.

But I think it does not matter for laplacian determinism because it states that if you know the position AND motion of every factor you can calculate the future. Whether or not you can actually GET both position AND motion is a different story.

Quote:
I was reading about a pretty interesting theory considering matter transportation where a viable method of duplicating every particle (match it's velocity, spin, type) to form the exact same object far away from the "original" but you don't actually gain any knowledge so I'm pretty sure it doesn't violate any laws and such.
It does I think, because you need to know the relative position from each particle. I wouldn't want to have my (or my duplicates) arm to be constructed 10 feet from the rest of my body, no?
And since you need to know the position, relative or not, you can't know the velocity/spin of the particles.
Or am I missing something about this quantum theory again?
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:26   #28
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Question Re: Diet improves behaviour

So we have to scientific backing to the idea tha fatties are generally more grumpy?
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:34   #29
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

That's what mark was saying by it "disproves" laplacian determinism though. Incidentally I just read wikipedia's take on determinism and quantum mechanics and frankly I'm ****ing appalled.


I'm pretty sure it doesn't because the guy who said it didn't is pretty smart! Seriously though it works off joint properties of entangled photons so you never actually know the full details of the particle you're teleporting. (Apologies where I said theory above, quantum teleporation has actually been verified).
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:46   #30
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That's what mark was saying by it "disproves" laplacian determinism though. Incidentally I just read wikipedia's take on determinism and quantum mechanics and frankly I'm ****ing appalled.
"disproves" is perhaps the wrong word for it. It's just not possible in practise. But I feel the theory is still valid. If you know EVERYTHING, you can calculate the future.
Do you have a link to Wikipedia's article BTW? I can't find it.


Quote:
I'm pretty sure it doesn't because the guy who said it didn't is pretty smart! Seriously though it works off joint properties of entangled photons so you never actually know the full details of the particle you're teleporting. (Apologies where I said theory above, quantum teleporation has actually been verified).
I remember reading something about that a while ago. But I thought they only managed to do it with one particle at a time.
I believe you when you say the guy who wrote is pretty smart, and he probably knows this quantum theory better than I do. So I won't even try to argue his theory/concept.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 13:52   #31
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quantum theory doesn't just say it's impossible in practice. Quantum theory indicates that it's only a slightly more valid question than "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". Particles don't have positions until they're measured. Instead you have a probability wave that says it's probably about here, probably not over there and almost certainly not somewhere in the andromeda galaxy. But until you measure it it isn't actually specifically in one of these places. Wikipedia link

Yeah it was only one particle but there's no obstacle bar increasing complexity preventing you from doing it with two, three, four or 10^40 particles. Obviously at 10^40 particles you'd probably just be better off using fedex.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 14:54   #32
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
Oh yeah, that was it... if you opened the box you interfered with the radioactive particle inside the box.
That's not it at all.

The Schroedingers Cat thought experiment was made to show the absurdity of quantum events on a macro scale. You have a cat in a box, with a poison vial set to release the poison (and kill the cat) if a particle decays in a given time.

The chance of the particle decaying is 0.5.

Until you open the box, you do not know whether the cat is dead or alive, and according to quantum mechanics it is in fact both, in a superposition of states.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 14:59   #33
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
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Unread 9 May 2005, 16:42   #34
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What do you mean by this exactly? I think it's a fairly key element of quantum mechanics that you can't know both the position and velocity of a particle.(
This isnt relevant though. Laplacian determinism isnt an epistemic claim about the knowledge it is possible to achieve, it is a metaphysical statement about casuation. LD states that if you can acquire full knowledge of the state of the universe at time t, then (with infintie computational power), you could deduce the states at time t+n for all n. In other words, the universe evolves in an entirely deterministic manner from any set of initial conditions. The fact that this knowledge is impossible to achieve doesnt make any difference - LD is a hypothetical thought experiment geared towards highlighting what is being claimed by physical determinism. Or to put it another way, ¬x doesnt falsify the conditional (x=>y).

Some interpretations of QM postulate genuine randomness which would disprove LD, but lol underdetermination lol. Things like Bohmian mechanics are fully deterministic as far as I know.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 16:50   #35
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Go live in an alternate universe.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 17:06   #36
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

I had sex with your mum in an alternate universe

edit: i mean this one
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Unread 9 May 2005, 18:54   #37
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Wikipedia is shit and wrong. According to the current scientific model of the universe laplacian determinism is a completely invalid system. Particles don't come with specific positions. Saying that they might but you just can't know them is so unscientific it deserves to be in the bible.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 19:33   #38
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

I'm unsure where you'd find incredibly accurate scientific information on the internet.

I looked for you and found this (there's a fair bit of maths involved but you sort of need that). For reading about science in general I like brian greene (the elegant universe or the fabric of the cosmos).
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Unread 9 May 2005, 20:06   #39
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_horn
out of interest, who writes the articles for wikipedia ?
Anyone, you buffoon, that's the point. It's a self-regulating open-source encyclopedia.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 20:10   #40
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

which is why the only thing wikipedia ever proves is how retarded mortals can be.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 22:03   #41
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Some things wikipedia is good for, such as dates and names. If you want detailed analysis of fairly advanced theories I'd go elsewhere though.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 22:07   #42
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Wikipedia is shit and wrong. According to the current scientific model of the universe laplacian determinism is a completely invalid system. Particles don't come with specific positions. Saying that they might but you just can't know them is so unscientific it deserves to be in the bible.
This is grade A nonsense fyi.
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Unread 9 May 2005, 22:09   #43
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Re: Diet improves behaviour

You're pretty wrong there man.
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