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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 00:44   #1
__cLowN_pAiNt__
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Want to program a game...

Me and my friend are hoping to make an online multiplayer rpg game in a couple of years, but we are having trouble deciding what language to get into before we start getting books on the subject. To be honest we dont know a lot about programming, i know a tiny bit of visual basic but i dont really want to get into visual basic as its not cross platform.

How long would it take to learn C# and be writing our own game engines for an online multiplayer rpg?

Obviously there is no straight forward answer here, we would just like a rough estimate to know if its worth trying or not, and i realise c# will have many more advantages to knowing it after the project. Our other option is to make it a shockwave game, and learn lingo, the shockwave programming language. It has lots of options for 3d stuff, but is it really powerful enough to make a big game like this in?

If anyone here has any knowledge of lingo and what it can do we would appreciate a response, even if you dont know anything about lingo, i would like to know how complex c# would be for us, two intelligent 14-15 year olds.. lol

yes, young, but we have the inspiration to keep us at it.
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 01:34   #2
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Re: Want to program a game...

i dont know too much about C#, but i have looked over it in the past.
for what you want to do i guess you could use it, but to learn it to a point where you would be able to do this afaik could take up to several years.

Maybe it would be better if you tried to learn PHP for this sort of thing it would be easier?
I know a lot of the online games out there are programmed in PHP, so i know its possible, any afaik it would be a lot easier to set something like this up using a scripting language like PHP over something like C#, as PHP is a lot easier to learn, understand, and use when compsred to a compiled language such as C#
ill probably rewrite this later when im awake incase it doesnt make much sense now
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 01:44   #3
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Re: Want to program a game...

I think he intends to program a game, not code a browser-based database interface
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 01:44   #4
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Arrow Re: Want to program a game...

Other people have walked the same way: Growing up, getting to know languages, wanting to make huge and nice and great games etc...
Well, start small IMO. If your 1st project is for real (and if it's huge), you'll make too many design mistakes and use bad techniques etc. You won't get on with it.
Would be better to finish a smaller project and "learn" from it, before starting the real big one.

Also, it helps getting to know the programming language first. Game programming is one of the "more advanced" disciplines imo, so you should be an intermediate programmer at least.

For a real project you need people who can do graphics as well btw.

And cross-platform: Yeah, sure, C/C++ might be cross platform. But as soon as you use certain libraries (graphics!), it stops being cross platform very soon.
I recommend using DirectX as its fairly "easy/simple/whatever", but still powerful, and just great. Although I haven't really tried OpenGL tbh.
Anyway, if you choose DirectX, you're limiting yourself to MS OS...

You know that "online multiplayer games" are even more complex? Surely not the right thing to start.


The easiest games for starters to make are simple action or board games.
If you've done a proper version of tetris, you can consider yourself "alright" and move on, or try to integrate a multiplayer option, just as on gameboy.


Ah well, sorry, too much to say about it, tried a lot of all of this for myself :-/


[edit:] Oh, and btw, for the log: You CAN do games within Visual Basic. It can be just as fast if you use it right (the algorithm makes the speed, not the language -- well, most of the time anyway). DirectX is supported as well, and it's a lot easier...

You might ask, why there aren't many well-known games in VB? Well, it's because most people who want to do a proper one, either used VB as a starter, and moved on, or soon realized, once they could master a game in VB, they could also learn a more complex language...
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 01:49   #5
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by __cLowN_pAiNt__
How long would it take to learn C# and be writing our own game engines for an online multiplayer rpg?
.
Hmm, for 2 people with no/little programing language, artistic skills, understanding of Graphical Engines, Physic Engines, Networking, code structure, audio knowledge etc etc.....

I'd say about.....5 years? Assuming you are both intelligent.


Not that should put you off, it usually takes a long time and plenty of effort to become good at anything.
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 01:59   #6
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
I think he intends to program a game, not code a browser-based database interface
lol heh.
you try explaining it simply when ur asleep then
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 02:19   #7
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Re: Want to program a game...

ok, i didnt mention enough at the start, we do know a bit, and it wont be any shock to me to be told it will take years to learn enough, just to get that off my chest.

How about DarkBASIC, alot easier, but i assume its windows only, not too big a loss really for the time saved.

Can someone explain oo programming too plz? im not too sure what it means. And im sure i read somewhere darkbasic isnt oo.
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 02:21   #8
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by __cLowN_pAiNt__
Can someone explain oo programming too plz? im not too sure what it means. And im sure i read somewhere darkbasic isnt oo.
It isn't really a subject that can be summed up fully by a forum post. I suggest searching on google for 'Object oriented programming explained' and looking for a good explaination there, and get ready for a fair bit of reading.
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 02:24   #9
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Re: Want to program a game...

the best thing to do is either look somewhere for a book about Object Oriented Programming, or do a search for it on somewhere like google.

OOP may be going a bit far for you at the moment though...

and yes, DarkBASIC is windows only
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 06:22   #10
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Re: Want to program a game...

What will the game involve? Maybe you could modify an existing engine like writing a Quake mod. I haven't used it but DarkBASIC looks quite cool and minimal hassle. Don't trade in your own enjoyment for a bit of extra market share!

A cross-platform library for games is SDL, which can deal with graphics (through OpenGL) and sound and the keyboard and mouse and networking and so on. You might like to try to use SDL with Python. I'm using SDL for a project at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by __cLowN_pAiNt__
ok, i didnt mention enough at the start, we do know a bit, and it wont be any shock to me to be told it will take years to learn enough, just to get that off my chest.

How about DarkBASIC, alot easier, but i assume its windows only, not too big a loss really for the time saved.

Can someone explain oo programming too plz? im not too sure what it means. And im sure i read somewhere darkbasic isnt oo.
Mind if I rant in your thread?

People use Object-Oriented Programming to mean a lot of things. One meaning is like "good": people call whatever they're doing OOP and say whatever you're doing (DarkBASIC) isn't OOP. See http://www.paulgraham.com/reesoo.html for more on this game of definition. But generally, people say the langage C is not OO and the languages C++, Java, and C# are OO.

As a model, OOP is contrasted with procedural programming, which is the model of a program as a set of procedures, with procedures being code that can call other procedures. The OOP model involves identifying objects, then having messages sent to these objects. So if you want to toss a dwarf, you send the dwarf a "toss" message. These messages are the procedures of procedural programming and so can usually return values. Tossing a dwarf might not return anything, but you might send a dwarf a "height" message and get back 120 centimetres. In procedural programming you would call "get_dwarf_height" with the dwarf as a parameter and get back 120cm.

This might sound like just changing words around so it's more important to understand the ideas behind these things. The main one is polymorphism. I'll try to explain polymorphism informally using sorting as an example.

Re-ordering 6 3 7 2 1 to 1 2 3 6 7 can come in handy for various things. In Java, you can have an algorithm which operates on Java AbstractLists. I can implement a data object with standard messages like "length" to return the number of elements to sort, and "get" which references the n'th element of the unsorted data. I define this object as an AbstractList, define how to compare two elements by defining a Java Comparator, and the code will work together. Then if I want to, say, sort the characters of a word (useful in an algorithm for generating anagrams perhaps) then I don't need to rewrite the sorting algorithm to work on words, I just define how to get the n'th character of a word and how to compare two characters.

(well actually, the Java standard library comes with specific procedures for sorting character arrays, for purposes of speed, and C's quicksort can works on character arrays if you really want it to)


Don't worry too much about which language you start off with. As long as you can keep an open mind, the more experience you get, the faster you can pick up new languages. After using DarkBASIC for a while you could always get a "Java in 24 hours" style book to see if you're missing anything.
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 12:20   #11
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Re: Want to program a game...

Start small.... very small. I can't stress that enough.

I don't know what your ambitions are, but generally people think too big when they start with their first game project. I know I did when I started.

Anyway, as for language, I'd go for C#, or even better C++ (my personal favourite ). When I see you talk about 3D stuff I assume you plan to make it very pretty, therefore I don't think lingo can provide you with the features you need (altho I know nothing about lingo) plus the speed of shockwave is a real constrain if you want to do something graphic intensive.
However, if you plan to make something like TIBIA (a game my brother plays, 2D MMORPG with a top view), then shockwave might be a very good tool.

I'd start with putting down what you want to make. If you want to make something graphic intensive, then I'd go for C# or C++, but be warned that making something in these languages require a lot of planning and a good design. Also be carefull that anything that requires graphics in these languages is a real pain in the ass to learn in a short time.

If you want to go for a game with a more simplistic look, like TIBIA (I'd check it out if you've never heard of it) by plotting flat sprites on a 2D map, then I'd go for shockwave because I believe it's easier to implement and develop (don't quote me on this, as I know no shockwave or lingo, or whatever is behind this).

As you're just beginning I'd say go for the shockwave and make it 2D before you even consider going 3D. That one extra dimension can cause a whole lot of headaches.
Also, if you bind yourself to C# or C++ then I believe you should use OO. If you don't know any OO at all then I'd stay away from C# or C++ cause OO is the whole basis of these languages. Learning to make a game, learning a new programming-language AND learning a whole new programming-concept is just TOO MUCH. You might be bright, but no one can handle such a steep learning curve.
Also keep in mind that there's much more to making a game than only graphics. There's networking, collision detection handling (even in an RPG), database connections (for the server). These are all very interesting things, but in C#/C++ these have to be handled on low levels with tedious pieces of code, while shockwave might be able to do this for you very quickly.

So, to conclude, use shockwave, as your team is familiar with that. Concentrate on the bottlenecks first. If you think the networking as a potential problem, then first test if you can get the networking code to work. Or graphics, then first make a graphics prototype.
Although most of this thread has been about languages, you shouldn't forget that there is also a design stage. One could spend a whole sub-forum on software-design, but I'll save that for another time when you know what you're actually going to make.

Good luck!
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 13:15   #12
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Re: Want to program a game...

We are looking to make a game like www.runescape.com eventually, after a series of mini projects to get us settled with whatever language were going to use. Lingo is apparently a very powerful language, it is oo and has collision detection and many other 3d features under its belt. Im no expert but it does sound good...

Also, you can make shockwave games into downloadable .exe's that can play full screen so there is a lot you can do with it, then the overall file size wont matter really, i doubt it would ever get over 50mb.

Hopefully we will have a team of 5 people at the end of this, i know other people interested in helping with php for the site, and 3d modelling, just no programmers so we need to learn a language and i think our only two real options are Lingo or DarkBASIC Pro.
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 15:23   #13
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Re: Want to program a game...

Hey, if you go for basic anyway, why not Visual Basic? I mean, at least that's a "proper" real language. You get full support everywhere on the net, MSDN, WinAPI, external DLLs, original DirectX, Winsocks...
I've looked at DarkBASIC, but it looks more like a "toy". Why take the dialect, if you can get the "real" one?

Really, VB is a proper language IMO (ok, its RAD, but anyway), unlike darkBasic... Other MS Office Apps etc support it, and it's one of the "better" products MS is responsible for.
And it's useful beyond game programming...
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 15:25   #14
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Re: Want to program a game...

And as other people said: You need to understand the concept of frame/time-based modelling anyway, of tile-based engines, physics, moving objects, lists & arrays, rects & intersection... A lot of stuff...
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Unread 24 Dec 2003, 17:25   #15
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Re: Want to program a game...

That was on my mind.. and weve decided after all these changes of mind, Visual Basic is the way to go for us. Its funny i started out learning some VB for this but then i just had to check out all the other choices to make sure i had made the right one, looks like i did. The appealing thing about DarkBASIC Pro was that it is designed specifically to make games.
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Unread 25 Dec 2003, 15:22   #16
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Re: Want to program a game...

Comraderob pointed me in the direction of a decent site for my programming project.
It's basically a lot of tips and programming help for game developing.
http://www.gamedev.net
Have a look, it was really useful for me.
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Unread 25 Dec 2003, 16:36   #17
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Re: Want to program a game...

A tutorial page for VB programming, that deals especially with the problems of being on your own (the one-man-army... how to design a game on your own):

http://www.rookscape.com/vbgaming/tutAZ.htm


Also, best site I know for game-related programming tips & concepts: (VB and general)

Lucky's VB Gaming Site
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Unread 29 Dec 2003, 07:09   #18
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Re: Want to program a game...

Dude as soon as you know one programming language well (procedual and object orientated) you can move onto just about any programming language easily enough.

It took me about 2 years to learn C/C++ well enough to go onto any language. Did a bit of Java in that time as well as my course required it.
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Unread 29 Dec 2003, 22:02   #19
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Re: Want to program a game...

You'll have fun with the network stuff! There are professional games companies spending millions on development that still can't come up with reliable, usable, fault tolerant network code.
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Unread 30 Dec 2003, 15:07   #20
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Re: Want to program a game...

- A few years ago I made a pong game in mirc (with picture windows and stuff), and apparently mircscript is similar to C (I heard).
- I've quickly read through a C++ book some time ago.
- I know Perl.
I now feel the urge to learn windows and directdraw programming in windows. I've seen examples and read tutorials on the internet about how to start with that, but I just do not understand a word of what they are saying (especially the msdn examples) :/
So is there actually any _good_ books/tutorials about that?
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Unread 31 Dec 2003, 02:35   #21
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Re: Want to program a game...

DirectDraw is not "in" anymore I'm afraid. Last DX version supporting it was 7 (that doesn't mean it won't work on 9, but it isn't upgraded & extended anymore).
Big shame really as it was nice & "simple / easy" and could do what you wanted.

In DX 8 Direct3D and DirectDraw were merged and became DirectGraphics, basically only 3D now. You need to write your own "DD-Like-Engine", that displays 2D stuff in 3D (without using that one more dimension).

The advantage is, you get hardware accelaration in 3D, which wasn't available for 2D.
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Unread 31 Dec 2003, 10:05   #22
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Re: Want to program a game...

So it is rather useless to learn for me then? I don't see myself doing this 3D stuff yet!
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Unread 31 Dec 2003, 10:40   #23
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flayer
So it is rather useless to learn for me then? I don't see myself doing this 3D stuff yet!
2D and 3D is the same inside a graphics library, except that all 2D is projected right infront of the camera. So if both can be handled with the same library, why have something as DirectDraw? That's why I guess MS stopped developing DirectDraw.

In OpenGL you can set the matrix so everything is projected as 2D, but the drawing is exactly the same (almost).
I don't know how this is arranged in DirectX, but what I know you can manipulate the view matrix aswell, so basically you should be able to create a 2D environment.

Ask on the Gamedev forums on how to set up a 2D view in Direct3D. Else you can try NeXe tutorials on DirectX to get started, although I like NeHe and his OpenGL tutorials better.
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Unread 31 Dec 2003, 12:31   #24
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Re: Want to program a game...

ta
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Unread 4 Jan 2004, 20:53   #25
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Re: Want to program a game...

I have 0 experience with programming, other than some basic ASP/PHP database interaction, but I do own a copy of DarkBASIC.

Yes it is simple. Yes there is a lot of premade code snippets to use. Yes it is dedicated to games.

Yes it is shite.

I'd say learn a 'proper' language such as C++, and yeah start small. Then build upon it.

Someone once told be that you can do 'anything' with C++, as long as you know how.

I believe that was Megla, approx 18mth ago.
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Unread 4 Jan 2004, 21:29   #26
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
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I have 0 experience with programming, other than some basic ASP/PHP Someone once told be that you can do 'anything' (with C++,) as long as you know how.
doesn't that count for everything?
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Unread 4 Jan 2004, 21:34   #27
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Re: Want to program a game...

C not C++

Damn uni's and their damned teaching OO crap to kids nowadays.....
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Unread 4 Jan 2004, 21:39   #28
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Re: Want to program a game...

But OO is pretty.
And thereby, you can use C++ as if it we're C with objects, so basically your statement is NULL and void.
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Unread 5 Jan 2004, 01:17   #29
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Arrow Re: Want to program a game...

I bet noone asks me, BUT:
IMO oo is for mega-projects. Like windows for example. When lots of people work on one huge project, and it needs to be coordinated and structured in some way.

If you're programming on your own, ah well, don't worry too much. If your variable- and function-naming and -handling etc is consistent enough, you'll probably do very fine with good old spaghetti code (in a good way). Well, probably "procedural programming" is the word I mean.

But as soon as other people have to use your code.... Well, oo HAS it's right of existance.

But I seriously doubt, that most hobby / amateur programmers ever used inheritance in a really sensible / useful way.
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Unread 5 Jan 2004, 08:13   #30
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
But I seriously doubt, that most hobby / amateur programmers ever used inheritance in a really sensible / useful way.


But you do have a point when you say it's usefull for structuring bigger applications. But not when you say it's for when other people read your work.
I'm a hobbyist programmer, but I'd die if my personal work wasn't OO. I'd get lost in the spaghetti in no time.
OO more dictates how you structure your application (if you really program OO, and not C with Objects), not only in objects, but also in files.

Also, personally I find it easier to think in objects, than in procedures. And particulary in games it's incredibly handy because characters, enemies and other actors in a game are just like in the real world "objects" or entities. It's great that you can handle them the same in a program.
I don't want to think about that I would have to handle a whole load of world-objects in a procedural piece of programming.

But OK, as with most things, the choice between OO and procedural programming is mostly a personal choice.
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Unread 5 Jan 2004, 10:48   #31
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
I bet noone asks me, BUT:
But I seriously doubt, that most hobby / amateur programmers ever used inheritance in a really sensible / useful way.
Or most professional coders neither
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Unread 5 Jan 2004, 10:49   #32
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
But OK, as with most things, the choice between OO and procedural programming is mostly a personal choice.
Or a choice between ease and efficency.
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Unread 5 Jan 2004, 20:34   #33
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Re: Want to program a game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
I bet noone asks me, BUT:
IMO oo is for mega-projects. Like windows for example. When lots of people work on one huge project, and it needs to be coordinated and structured in some way.

If you're programming on your own, ah well, don't worry too much. If your variable- and function-naming and -handling etc is consistent enough, you'll probably do very fine with good old spaghetti code (in a good way). Well, probably "procedural programming" is the word I mean.

But as soon as other people have to use your code.... Well, oo HAS it's right of existance.

But I seriously doubt, that most hobby / amateur programmers ever used inheritance in a really sensible / useful way.
The absolute best coding environment I have ever experienced was in an LPC mud, and all the code was OO. But I guess that counts as a "mega-project" even if it is a hobby/amateur thing.


But please note; if you are going to put code away for some time, and come back to it later, you count as a different person.
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Unread 5 Jan 2004, 21:09   #34
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Re: Want to program a game...

I'll give you a gold star if you say your going to be 1337 and write it in BASIC.
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