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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:30   #51
Ceadrath
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

that depends to what denomination you belong to. Some allow their own ministers to be gay, whilst others still view it as unnatural and a sin.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 13:15   #52
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Well that's rather unhelpful. Particularly considering there are a number of other things in the OT that could bring death which I can't imagine that any mainstream religious sect opposes nowadays. Therefore, I can only assume that anti-homosexual tendancies in the church are something other than religion in origin.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 13:22   #53
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

ASG and others if you want to be zealously opposed to Christian dogma that is more than fine by me but it would be nice if any of you approached the whole issue from a different standpoint than "every christian is evhul and beleves everthng in the BIBLE!!!"!!!!!!!?" - you wouldn't look quite as severely autistic in this thread.
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Last edited by Phang; 14 Sep 2007 at 13:50. Reason: hyphen makes grammar!
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 13:44   #54
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

I'm more interested in WHY Christians don't believe everything in the Bible. If they choose to ignore certain elements of it, then what is the reason for ignoring this element and not the other. If it turns out there is no logical* system for choosing which parts to believe and which to not, it may be summised that it is not religious belief but a personal one masquarading in the guise of a diety.

*as far as logic can be applied to a work of fiction
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 13:48   #55
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I'm more interested in WHY Christians don't believe everything in the Bible. If they choose to ignore certain elements of it, then what is the reason for ignoring this element and not the other. If it turns out there is no logical* system for choosing which parts to believe and which to not, it may be summised that it is not religious belief but a personal one masquarading in the guise of a diety.

*as far as logic can be applied to a work of fiction
So it couldn't be that they're displaying a modicum of critical independent thought? I realise such an event is unlikely given you disagree with their beliefs, but just play along with the hypothetical for a bit.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 14:01   #56
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Independant critical thought is fine but it seems wholly inconsistant that people will campaign against homosexuals but not at the farmer who grows two crops in the same field. Either the laws of God in the OT are applicable or thay are not.

If they are applicable and such things are sins against God, why would any Christian not follow the rules? If you're ignoring the word of God, why call yourself a Christian?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 19:27   #57
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Independant critical thought is fine but it seems wholly inconsistant that people will campaign against homosexuals but not at the farmer who grows two crops in the same field. Either the laws of God in the OT are applicable or thay are not.

If they are applicable and such things are sins against God, why would any Christian not follow the rules? If you're ignoring the word of God, why call yourself a Christian?
Because people like to pick and choose what they want to follow. The OT is more like a guide now rather than law. Things change over time even religion. Just look how much sence the following passages make:

Leviticus 5
1 " 'If a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify regarding something he has seen or learned about, he will be held responsible.

2 " 'Or if a person touches anything ceremonially unclean—whether the carcasses of unclean wild animals or of unclean livestock or of unclean creatures that move along the ground—even though he is unaware of it, he has become unclean and is guilty.

3 " 'Or if he touches human uncleanness—anything that would make him unclean—even though he is unaware of it, when he learns of it he will be guilty.

4 " 'Or if a person thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil—in any matter one might carelessly swear about—even though he is unaware of it, in any case when he learns of it he will be guilty.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 19:29   #58
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Don't you see the absurdity of a religion which is supposedly the creation of God and then allowing man to change it?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 19:38   #59
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Don't you see the absurdity of a religion which is supposedly the creation of God and then allowing man to change it?
Don't you see how using the literalist/fundamentalist interpretation of 'the word of God' to attack liberal Christians is either intellectually dishonest or utterly stupid?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 19:39   #60
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Travler has no understanding.

Neither do the rest of you.

When you can tell me who Dashura is and why he is important today. When you can tell me who Mary is. When you can tell me how long the jews have followed only one god. When you can tell me the name of jesus. When you can tell me all of these and so much more...

Then you may speak of religion.

Until then speak only of modern politics. The history of politics that is religion is not for amateurs, fools and those too lazy to bother with basic scholarship
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 19:57   #61
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
Don't you see how using the literalist/fundamentalist interpretation of 'the word of God' to attack liberal Christians is either intellectually dishonest or utterly stupid?
I'm merely attempting to work out the logical reasoning for why certain parts of the OT are treated as Gospel whilst other parts are not. I'm talking about precisely the kinds of sins which 'liberal' culture has dismissed as ludicrous.

I am specifically NOT referring to parts of the Bible which science has debunked (i.e. Genesis) nor parts which deal with miracles as these depend on faith which is something I'm not particularly interested in at the moment.

I have no issue with people who want to follow only part of the Bible as I have no issue at all with personal religion as such, just the organised ones. I would just like to know the dogmatic reasons why certain parts of the OT (such as homos are evil) are followed whilst others (farmers planting 2 crops in the same field are evil) are not.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 20:52   #62
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

'liberal Christians' does not mean liberals who are Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
Leviticus deals with jewish priestly conduct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
As such the ceremonial and judicial elements were considered completed and annuled with the coming of christ, whilst the moral aspects (ten commandments etc) were continued for the worship of god.

I'm trying to see how this doesnt answer your question. Presumably you aren't taking a revolutionary new 'Religious hierarchies never have political agendas' approach?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 21:47   #63
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Looks like none of you is actually able to understand the question, let alone answer it. Score one for the atheist(?).
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 21:53   #64
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

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Looks like none of you is actually able to understand the question
what a quaint and curious creature you are.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 21:56   #65
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
'liberal Christians' does not mean liberals who are Christians.


[/i]
I'm trying to see how this doesnt answer your question. Presumably you aren't taking a revolutionary new 'Religious hierarchies never have political agendas' approach?
You're really starting to spoil my fun.

I shall state it once again. I would like to know how a Christian reconciles getting rid of certain parts of the book using NT as a reason and not getting rid of other parts of the OT which, presumably, should also be discarded.

Now, if we go along with the Travler 'people pick and choose which bits of the OT to believe' then we find that what you in fact have is a person who has certain beliefs who then picks bits of the OT to justify themselves. I find this difficult to call 'faith' in any way as it is a largely incoherent way of dissecting a Holy book. Even the Devil can quote scripture to suit his needs.

Whilst it is obvious that religious institutions and people with vested interests will use whatever indoctrinating device is available to hand I'm not so sure this is true of the vast majority of people who refer to themselves as 'Christians'.

I would like to see a Christian who believes the OT is essentialy null and void explain why homosexuality is a sin, but wearing a garment made of two different materials, is not. This particularly interests me seeing as 'God hates gays' was eradicated as a 'judicial' element of the OT, which was completed.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 22:44   #66
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
You're really starting to spoil my fun.

I shall state it once again. I would like to know how a Christian reconciles getting rid of certain parts of the book using NT as a reason and not getting rid of other parts of the OT which, presumably, should also be discarded.

Now, if we go along with the Travler 'people pick and choose which bits of the OT to believe' then we find that what you in fact have is a person who has certain beliefs who then picks bits of the OT to justify themselves. I find this difficult to call 'faith' in any way as it is a largely incoherent way of dissecting a Holy book. Even the Devil can quote scripture to suit his needs.

Whilst it is obvious that religious institutions and people with vested interests will use whatever indoctrinating device is available to hand I'm not so sure this is true of the vast majority of people who refer to themselves as 'Christians'.

I would like to see a Christian who believes the OT is essentialy null and void explain why homosexuality is a sin, but wearing a garment made of two different materials, is not. This particularly interests me seeing as 'God hates gays' was eradicated as a 'judicial' element of the OT, which was completed.
If you read what Travlers actually been saying he says both are or at least may well be sins, all sins are equal in the eyes of god etc - but he rejects this judgement being made on Earth. I think this is one of the more measured approaches I've seen and I can't for the life of me understand why his post about potentially lenient treatment of a hate crime being revolting has been met with "what do you care u xian lol god suxxxx" - it's bigotry or stupidity and while the question you seek to answer is a fair one, claiming your posts in this thread would get you an answer to it is being an utter spastic.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 22:45   #67
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Looks like none of you is actually able to understand the question, let alone answer it. Score one for the atheist(?).
you're an idiot.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 23:29   #68
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Well I must say, you've been nothing in this thread if not consistant. If they hadn't focused completely on misrepresenting my position then they might have had some value. Let's break down this post a little, shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
If you read what Travlers actually been saying he says both are or at least may well be sins, all sins are equal in the eyes of god etc - but he rejects this judgement being made on Earth. I think this is one of the more measured approaches I've seen
Seeing as only one of my posts has actually been directed towards Travler, (I've been mainly addressing Ceadrath) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The question I asked him (after he quoted me) was a genuine one and I was hoping it would lead to a greater discussion about why certain topics are heavily campaigned against whilst others are left alone and the methodology of choosing each topic etc... after my initial inquieries seemed to get derailed somewhat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
and I can't for the life of me understand why his post about potentially lenient treatment of a hate crime being revolting has been met with "what do you care u xian lol god suxxxx" - it's bigotry or stupidity and while the question you seek to answer is a fair one, claiming your posts in this thread would get you an answer to it is being an utter spastic.
Yes how bigotted it was of me to say some of the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by my first post
Except that without large-scale social changes (in attitude and action) both are little more than symbolic actions. Except of course, that hate crime legislation might actually have a noticable impact until the human race wipes itself out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by my second post
Of course it's not ideal but this legislation can never be anything more than a patch as it doesn't deal with the underlying issues that a lot of people in this country are completely ****ed in the head. There is a river of racism, homophobia and general bigotry running right below the surface and it's only a matter of time before it all explodes to the surface. But seeing as the liklihood of addressing the underlying problems is practically zero, this is all you can really expect.

I'm not sure if these laws have any greater aim than deterring people from racist attacks* but it's the best you're gonig to get without wholesale social change.

*whether this is effective or not is kind of irrelevent
In future I'll try not to say such outrageous things, such as supporting hate-crime legislation. What was I thinking?

The main point of most of my posts on this page have pretty much been towards the same end and I thought it was going quite well incidently, until say, post 58. Since then I seem to have been stuck trying to explain my previous posts when it would have been enough for you to re-read post 57 where I said
Quote:
Therefore, I can only assume that anti-homosexual tendancies in the church are something other than religion in origin.
It would have saved us a lot of time and effort really.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 23:39   #69
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

actually, I do owe you an apology - reading back I thought you'd jumped in with Tietaja and his merry band of drooling simpletons near the start and as such I was conflating you with Tietaja, horn, Kargool and so on, who started the thread as dribbling idiots and never recovered.

Nonetheless to me it reads like Ceadrath is clarifying rather than adding any editorial slant so I don't see why he comes in for grief. Given that the only unambiguously Christian voice in the thread has been Travler, who expressed no anti-gay sentiment I don't see where the hostility ramped up from.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 23:42   #70
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
actually, I do owe you an apology - reading back I thought you'd jumped in with Tietaja and his merry band of drooling simpletons near the start and as such I was conflating you with Tietaja, horn, Kargool and so on, who started the thread as dribbling idiots and never recovered.

Nonetheless to me it reads like Ceadrath is clarifying rather than adding any editorial slant so I don't see why he comes in for grief. Given that the only unambiguously Christian voice in the thread has been Travler, who expressed no anti-gay sentiment I don't see where the hostility ramped up from.
it "ramped up" from you
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 23:47   #71
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

it's good we have your devastatingly effiective insight to call on Steven
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 23:59   #72
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

He's got a point though, you're the one who spends most of his time calling people idiots for not agreeing with him....
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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 00:12   #73
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
He's got a point though, you're the one who spends most of his time calling people idiots for not agreeing with him....
no darling, I call people idiots who make vacuous ill-informed statements, regardless if I agree with their side of an argument. I think the sanctity of Christian doctrine is perhaps the biggest enemy of society currently at work in the world, but in this thread as a whole I'd have to say atheism hasn't looked like the intellectual elite.
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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 07:38   #74
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I'm more interested in WHY Christians don't believe everything in the Bible. If they choose to ignore certain elements of it, then what is the reason for ignoring this element and not the other. If it turns out there is no logical* system for choosing which parts to believe and which to not, it may be summised that it is not religious belief but a personal one masquarading in the guise of a diety.

*as far as logic can be applied to a work of fiction
I take it you grew up in a predominently protestant country? Your placing far too much emphasis on the bible itself. Things such as sacred tradition, papal bulls, and ecumenical councils are considered by the majority of christians to be of equal importance to the bible itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Independant critical thought is fine but it seems wholly inconsistant that people will campaign against homosexuals but not at the farmer who grows two crops in the same field. Either the laws of God in the OT are applicable or thay are not.

If they are applicable and such things are sins against God, why would any Christian not follow the rules? If you're ignoring the word of God, why call yourself a Christian?
i'd imagine that some church council or pope over the last 2000 years decided that gays were in for teh hate whilst growing two crops in the same field was reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Don't you see the absurdity of a religion which is supposedly the creation of God and then allowing man to change it?
not really, it's really no more absurd than blindly following some words that were written down by men over thousands of years then allowing some more people to pick and choose which bits they wanted in, then deciding to call it the bible and burning anyone who disagrees, which you seem to think should happern.


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I'm merely attempting to work out the logical reasoning for why certain parts of the OT are treated as Gospel whilst other parts are not. I'm talking about precisely the kinds of sins which 'liberal' culture has dismissed as ludicrous.

I am specifically NOT referring to parts of the Bible which science has debunked (i.e. Genesis) nor parts which deal with miracles as these depend on faith which is something I'm not particularly interested in at the moment.

I have no issue with people who want to follow only part of the Bible as I have no issue at all with personal religion as such, just the organised ones. I would just like to know the dogmatic reasons why certain parts of the OT (such as homos are evil) are followed whilst others (farmers planting 2 crops in the same field are evil) are not.
Two thousand years of theological debate. When treveler said you can pick and choose, it's not quite as blase as deciding which ones work for you today, but depending on your denomination their is a great degree of variance. As i said in my first post, their is a huge amount of interpretation, and what people choose to believe is ultimetly up to them, and i have no doubt that they can justify themselves in some way.


As the rest of the stuff you posted seems to just go on a bit i'll just sum up here. As i said, you seem to be under the impression that the bible is the bee's kness of church doctrine, it's not. It was only really the protestant reformation that gave it a greater importance. The vatican and church councils had an equal role in defining what to believe in the past as the bible itself. Yes, this has allowed for corruption and manipulation of the scriptures for the purposes of the popes/church in the past, but then any institution which has/had the power and influence of the church is unlikely to remain un-political. Thats one of the reasons that we had the protestant reformation, who wanted to go back to the scriptures as the word of god, to cut out the corruption of the catholic church at the time, and why if you live in a protestant country then your going to place more emphasis on the bible then most do.
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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 10:03   #75
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
When you can tell me who Dashura is and why he is important today. When you can tell me who Mary is. When you can tell me how long the jews have followed only one god. When you can tell me the name of jesus. When you can tell me all of these and so much more...

Then you may speak of religion.
Kind of like how you have to have read The Silmarillion to really understand Sauron.
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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 11:01   #76
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Exclamation Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

I remember Phang being almost constantly angry about religion. What the hell happened?
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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 12:16   #77
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I remember Phang being almost constantly angry about religion. What the hell happened?
nothing! I just grew out of the 'carpet bomb' approach to theological debate. It distresses me to see others making similar mistakes.
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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 13:58   #78
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
I take it you grew up in a predominently protestant country? Your placing far too much emphasis on the bible itself. Things such as sacred tradition, papal bulls, and ecumenical councils are considered by the majority of christians to be of equal importance to the bible itself.
I suppose I did. When talking about Christianity generally (rather than a particular branch) I'd imagine it's one of the few aspects that are consistant throughtout all of the groups which is why I place so much emphasis on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
i'd imagine that some church council or pope over the last 2000 years decided that gays were in for teh hate whilst growing two crops in the same field was reasonable.
This is the area I find mostly troubling and what I dislike most about organised religion (and concentrate power in general). Giving a small number of people so much power inevitably leads to corruption and actions which are primarily self-serving.

Given the historically demonstrated unreliability of the Bible and of the corruption of men, I find it difficult to understand why people would commit themselves to a particular sect (which inevitably is biased by the people who run it, and depending on the size of the group, by the international situation) rather than formulating their own personal relationship with God whilst doing what they believe is right. There would be nothing wrong if you wished to pick the best bits out of the Bible, but then it seems inconsistant to then use this unreliable source to give your beliefs credence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
not really, it's really no more absurd than blindly following some words that were written down by men over thousands of years then allowing some more people to pick and choose which bits they wanted in, then deciding to call it the bible and burning anyone who disagrees, which you seem to think should happern.
As I have previously stated, no-one who has done a little research can think the Bible is an unadulteraed message from God. Therefore, it is rather difficult to use the Bible to support your beliefs.

That said, if you are going to ignore the historical research and claim that the Bible is gospel and God hates fags then it's logically inconsistant for them to not be hating famrers and people wearing mixed fabrics. On the other hand, people who reject such evidence aren't particularly logical in the first place.


As for the reat of your post, I'm not going to reply as it would just be me repeating myself, replying to you about how I was repeating myself and could well spiral out of control until we both end up copying and pasting previous posts in an infinite loop of repitition.
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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 16:36   #79
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Just as a follow up Ricky Williams was beaten up on September 1st and then dies four days later. As of Today September 15th, 2007 no arrests have been made and it may not even be considered a homicide as the Milton, WV police are considering it just to be assult.

Maybe Milton should become a tourist destination. Where else can you kill a homosexual and get off with just a $250 misdemeaner fine?
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 15 Sep 2007, 21:26   #80
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
I think the sanctity of Christian doctrine is perhaps the biggest enemy of society currently at work in the world,
but that is only for the following reasons:
1) you are sensationalist
2) you aren't as bright as you imagine
3) you are too lazy to do proper research
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