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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 00:29   #1
Squall23
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Beginning programming question

Ok, recently i've decided to learn programming, applications etc.

I talked to a friend about it and he said it's better learning C# first before anything.

Is this true, also whats the difference between C# and C++.

I would like info on where to start programming on if C# was false information given.

Thanks
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 00:52   #2
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lots of people have lots of opinions on where to start.

Personally, i wouldnt recommend C#

Starting on pure C is probably better, but im sure other people will tell you different.

I'm a big fan of Java personally, which i have some excellent tutorials for too

Visual Basic is often looked down on, but its quite easy to use to start with, and can do some powerful stuff.

Then you have the web-based languages, like ASP and PHP which are both pretty good to learn, and have lots of internet sites about them.

The choice really is yours, i'd probably say just starting is a good idea, on what doesnt matter so much, except it makes things easier/harder to start with.
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 00:54   #3
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Any links for these Java tutiorials?
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 00:56   #4
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It's fine advice. I certainly would never advise C++ as a first language. C# is much simpler and nicer to use than C++ for Windows apps. You could try Googling for "C# C++ comparison" for a few details of the differences. The name similarity is more of a marketing thing than a clear progression.

With Visual Studio .NET and a copy of O'Reilly's "Learning C#" you should be fine.
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 01:03   #5
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Re: Beginning programming question

Quote:
Originally posted by Squall23
Ok, recently i've decided to learn programming, applications etc.

I talked to a friend about it and he said it's better learning C# first before anything.

Is this true, also whats the difference between C# and C++.

I would like info on where to start programming on if C# was false information given.

Thanks
Do you understand what a variable is?
Are you likely to be confused by things like x=x+5?
Have you scripted in any form (javascript, mirc etc?)

If not, I suggest you start with basic. Only language where the "hello world" example actually has <20 chars and one line
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 01:08   #6
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Originally posted by Squall23
Any links for these Java tutiorials?
yes, sorry, shoulda thought and just put the link up there.

http://chortle.ccsu.ctstateu.edu/cs151/cs151java.html

you can download them for offline work etc too.

if you need any help with them, pm me here, or find me on irc
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 01:29   #7
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W

Were you mocking me there, or were you serious. you didn't say where i should start.
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 02:18   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Squall23
W

Were you mocking me there, or were you serious. you didn't say where i should start.
I need you to answer the questions first.
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 02:31   #9
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If youre wanting to learn how to code applications and stuff then learn C#. If you want to learn how to actually program (ie youre considering doing CS at univerity/college/as a career/whatever), get this


edit: online copy here

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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 03:29   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
nodrog in 'useful post' shocker.

on topic though, that seems a rather good book mr ross, i shall perhaps acquire me a copy.

edit : after further reading, that book is quite in depth. Certainly not bedtime reading :/
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 03:31   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Squall23
W

Were you mocking me there, or were you serious. you didn't say where i should start.
What W is doing, is trying to find out what (if any) knowledge and experience you have. This helps him to find the best recommendation for you from the six zillion languages out there.

It is perhaps something i should have asked too, to be honest.
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 08:44   #12
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Re: Re: Beginning programming question

Quote:
Originally posted by W
If not, I suggest you start with basic. Only language where the "hello world" example actually has <20 chars and one line
What about Perl? Or PHP?

print "Hello World";

I'm not a programmer per se, but I'd start with PHP or Perl if I was beginning now. The progression to C is pretty immediate, and you can get results within a few minutes, not days. Plus the community support is massive, with every idiot being able to offer some PHP guidance. Plus the online PHP manual is probably the best I've seen.

Basic is cool, but I'm not sure how live the development/support community is, plus from what I can recall a lot of tutorials teach real bad habits.

It obviously depends on what you're going to be doing. What are your first projects going to be? Games? Database GUIs? Command Line chat programs?
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 09:55   #13
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Re: Re: Beginning programming question

I would love to have been started off on perl. Version 2 was just about out when I did my IT training.
OFC I would forever be asking why no other language has all the features I'm used to.
Quote:
Originally posted by W
Are you likely to be confused by things like x=x+5?
Ah, now I get it - an assignment (add 5 to x) as opposed to an equation (with no solution).

I would probably throw in:
Does "sequence, selection, iteration" mean anything to you?
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 12:23   #14
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Well to be honest i don't know any programing at all. I know the basics of HTML, but thats involved in coding appilications etc.
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 18:05   #15
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C/C++ is a good foundation for a lot of other languages but isn't particularly easy to pick up quickly if you've done no coding before.

My personal suggestion would be Java. It makes a nice first-language, there's lots of tutorials out and about and a few good books here and there, and it'll teach you the basic principles of things like object-oriented programming while being fairly easy to pick up.

If that doesn't tickle your fancy I'd agree with C# suggestions. I'd personally steer clear of BASIC-esque languages because although they'll make the machine do what you want your actual understanding of how and why the code executes suffers from the language shielding you from a lot of the raw material you're working with.

I'll let W flame me now.
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Unread 16 Aug 2003, 22:20   #16
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If I had to teach someone how to code, I would start them on C (no not ++ or #, there was just plain C to begin with) and then hit them repeatedly until they understood variables, memory, pointers and casting.

*Everything* else is simple from there on, and if you start with these subjects, understanding things like function definition etc become simple.

So my advice.....erm.....let me beat you round the head until you understand variables, etc etc.
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Unread 17 Aug 2003, 04:46   #17
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I'd start a complete novice on PHP simply because it's easy to get fast, impressive looking results (always a bonus to a novice). Once they understand the basics and are hooked they can be introduced to the beautiful hell that is C

Fortunately no-one will ever again have to deal with x86 memory models, for this all new programmers should be grateful. Handling data blocks over 64k was nasty

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Unread 17 Aug 2003, 22:56   #18
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I totally forgot about perl :/
Code:
If (you are going for general coding skills, and want to learn multiple languages){
 start with (studying all on your own by trial and error?basic:perl)
 follow up with (perl and more advanced perl || c/assembler /*don't underestimage what knowledge of the basics of coding will do for your understanding and skills*/ || C# && java)
} else if(you simply want to make windows programs){
 go for (C# or VB) straight away
} else {
 learn (C)
}
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Unread 17 Aug 2003, 23:18   #19
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Quote:
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i had a stage where my brain worked exactly like that...
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 07:42   #20
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huzzah everyone ive decided i want in on all this, i have no programming experience but would like the knowledge to do a bit of everything then maybe go for the real in depth stuff at some unknown time in the future, so should i go for perl or c? and is all the stuff i need googleable? i suppose im looking at starting by creating basic games just to find out how to put the structure of a programme together.

ps i dont know the answers to W's questions.


pps what do you people actually programme? i mean i want to learn since well its a new skill and im really interested in learning but apart from games i have no knowledge of what i could actually do.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 12:00   #21
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If, as your post suggests, you are a complete newbie to the world of programming I would suggest the following :

Programming is basically splitting a task into its sub tasks, every language handles this to one level of complexity or another. As an example, lets say you wanted to create an application to open a door. You would have to split the task into its component parts :

1) Open hand
2) Place hand around door knob
3) Close hand
4) Move hand in a downward motion
etc etc etc etc

Each language requires more or less steps depending on how many assumptions are built into it (i.e. where the door handle is, how heavy the door is, the direction it opens etc etc etc). So to start with I would suggest going for a language that makes alot of assumptions, i.e. one of the many scripting languages out there, for example PHP, PERL, ASP.

Although these arent true programming languages it will give you a gentle introduction to development and its quirks. You will gain an understanding of programming structure & variables - these will also allow you to learn how to think like a computer program. As you gain experience and confidence you can then move onto the more complex languages like C++, C#, Java, VB etc etc

A real world example would be the usual "Hello World" application, in PHP it would be this :

Code:
<?php
$message =  "Hello World";
print $message;
?>
Whereas in C#, it would be :

Code:
using System;

namespace HelloWorldApp
{
  class Class1
  {
    [STAThread]
    static void Main(string[] args)
    {
      string sMessage = "Hello World";
      Console.WriteLine(sMessage);
    }
  }
}
As you can see the equivalent in C# is seemingly much more complex, but this complexity gives you much more control over you application and what it can and can not do.

Now this is purely opinion, but for various reasons (that will just blind you with science) I would suggest not bothering with C at all.

Finally, learning to progam is not an "instant gratification" exercise, it will take years to get to a stage where you can produce just about anything you want - I have been coding for almost 20 years and I still have a massive pile of books that I constantly refer too and every day I learn something new

So in summary, learn PHP, then move onto C#, Java, VB, then look at C++, and dont expect to produce Doom 4 within a few weeks of starting to learn.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 12:10   #22
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so can i get all the stuff i need off the internet (programs, manual, teaching stuff etc) or do i have to go begging to my friends? since you suggested between PHP, PERL and ASP which one would be the easiest to get stuff for?
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 13:11   #23
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The community support on Perl or PHP is excellent. Either one would be acceptable - depends on what you want to do. PHP is more web orientated, Perl is more command-line orientated (although they both do both).

You can get everything off the 'net alright, but an O'Reilly book is a worthy investment.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 15:34   #24
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I guess you want to test your programs, so you need a compiler or an interpreter or something.

For Perl in a windows environment you can use ActivePerl from ActiveState

I have no idea about php.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 22:27   #25
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python

I can't believe nobody has mentioned python..

Easy understandable syntax, object-oriented, runs everywhere.. and you get to focus on the important stuff right away
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Unread 19 Aug 2003, 12:39   #26
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Was about to say the same.

/me dons asbestos suit

Python is (imho) cleaner and more stuctured than Perl and PHP, generally easier to use, less strange (apart from the indent thingy, which really isn't a problem, since you'll indent your code anyways), better documented and scales better.

and btw... hello world:
Code:
print "hello world"
http://www.python.org if you want to know more.
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Unread 20 Aug 2003, 11:13   #27
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I actually find it quite strange that people are suggesting PHP as a first language. PHP is something which has been designed to be simple to use and hence it does take some shortcuts. For example the lack of variable declaration and the fact that this then allows you to assign any value to them no matter what type you want (For example assinging a string to a variable that should be a float)

Imho a good starter programming language is one that instils all the good programming techniques into you as bad habits are hard to lose but isnt too taxing so as to put people off. (For example I know people who have wanted to do web scripting who have taken a look at perl and been scared off immediatly)

For this reason I personally recommend Pascal when asked this question. Ok you arent going to produce award winning programs from it but it has all the things you need to get to grips with programming before moving onto something more taxing. After all theres a reason so many Schools, Colleges ect use this as an entry point into programming.

If the person is really adement that they want to learn a more reconisable launguage then I'll suggest they try Plain old C. Ok its a little more complex than pascal but its also a nice base to start from as it gives you easy access into PHP (which is very c like) or into the OO languages such as C++ and Java
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Unread 20 Aug 2003, 11:37   #28
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Wakey, I agree with the variable declaration of PHP, but the thing is that a beginning hobbyist programmer wants to see visible results, not some cryptic text on the screen.
I remember the first time I went to my current school and heard I was going to learn to program. I was dreaming of the amazing first person shooters and multiplayer games I was going to make. Or the great special effects I was going to make on my computer screen. Things the world had never seen before.

heh... I was quite disappointed when I drew my first "Hello world" on the screen with a Java applet and after three years didn't get much further than our latest project: a simple chat-application.

For motivational reasons I would always recommend a graphical language. A language that is meant to put things on the screen, rather than do things invisible. But it's up to what you want to do really.

PHP would do fine in my opinion. The beginner doesn't have to worry about types or variable declaration and can concentrate on the structure of his programming rather than on syntax.

Java is also a possibility as it's easy to put simple shapes (squares, ovals, etc) on the screen, but I personally don't really like it because of the vagueness of the ObjectOriented and reference part. (Give me C++ anyday)

If you want to actually SEE your results then C or C++ is a big "nono", but I agree that these languages do encourage to uphold the correct syntaxes.
You can create graphical fancy things with C/C++ but to learn it it takes time. Lots of time. Time that a beginner doesn't want to put into it.

I never worked with Pascal or Python so I cannot comment on that.

It's up to you what language you choose, but think of what you actually want to create with your programming. Fancy stuff on your screen or things that are done under the surface? Things in your browser, or things on a users computer?
From there on you have to choose your language.
There's no best language to learn programming from... there's only the best language that suits the job you want to do.
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Unread 20 Aug 2003, 16:36   #29
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While I agree that getting instant gratification is nice when learning something it does lead to problems when programming anything that released to the public. Seeing as most hobbiests dont just produce the software they write for their own use but also for their friends/family/web site vistors ect this is an issue for hobbyists and professionals alike

We have all these programming standards we have today becuase during the boom of home programming in the 70's/80's the majority of people were producing sloopy code that at best wasnt efficient and at worst was dangerous to the system. Now it wasnt that these people went out to produce sloopy code but just that there was no coding standards out there and hence they had nothing to work against and as such poor programming techniques became a bad habit of theres.

For this reason I always feel its best to get them started on languages that promote use of a good stanard and teach them the basics.

Programmings an art which has to be worked on to get results and if people want/expect instant results then you have to ask Is programming really for them?
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Unread 20 Aug 2003, 17:35   #30
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Re: Re: Beginning programming question

Quote:
Originally posted by W
If not, I suggest you start with basic. Only language where the "hello world" example actually has <20 chars and one line
PHP:

<?
echo 'Hello World';
?>

M.
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Unread 20 Aug 2003, 20:57   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by wakey
Programmings an art which has to be worked on to get results and if people want/expect instant results then you have to ask Is programming really for them?
At one point all programmers started as 'hobbyists' (including the people who wrote those standards). There's nothing wrong with starting as a hobbyist, especially if that's what you are.

I kind of agree with what you're saying tho. Which is why I wouldn't recommend Basic now. I used Spectrum Basic, Amiga Basic and QBasic for some time. When I came to try and learn C I found it an utter nightmare. Why were these stupid rules? Why must I terminate every line with a semi-colon? WHY? Where is the Goto command? I made a couple of small C utils before giving up.

At the same time, I disagree with your comments on PHP/Perl. There are enough of the rules to discipline people (and familiarise them with basic concepts like conditional flows) but you can make pretty powerful programs. Yes, variables don't have to be declared, but there aren't THAT many differences - it's just you've got a large library of built-in functions which make some of the leg-work unnecessary in C.

Most PHP code being produced is bloody awful. But that's because it's not done by programmers or even wannabe programmers, it's produced people wanting a bit of scripting on a website. If you approach it as a programming language it makes a fine learning tool.

Sure, if someone is starting a 4 Year Computer Science degree then there's no point learning a "hobbyist" language, they can start directly on C, or something like Lisp or whatever.
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Unread 21 Aug 2003, 00:23   #32
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Anyhow, this breaks down to what you want to do with it. Come on. Be honest. You want to make games right?

Learn C. Go on. Its ace.

Quote:
or something like Lisp or whatever.
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Unread 21 Aug 2003, 01:20   #33
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For this reason I personally recommend Pascal when asked this question.
They made me learn Modula-2 at university. Niklaus Wirth is on my better dead list.
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Unread 21 Aug 2003, 02:05   #34
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They made me learn Modula-2 at university. Niklaus Wirth is on my better dead list.
That's not a very nice thing to say about someone.
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Unread 21 Aug 2003, 20:54   #35
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Just thought I'd share some thoughts about the topic of beginner languages, since we seem to be drifting that way...

Please remember that all this is IMHO...

First a bit about how I started. I tinkered a bit with basic on my old ZX spectrum when I was around 10-12 but never really got the hang of it. When I got my own computer at 13, I again started looking at programming, again looking at basic and still didn't get the hang of it, but after a while I turned my attention to C. Bought one of those "Teach yourself C in 21 days" books, and actually learnt enough C to make a few simple programs with that book. Now, 12 years later, I would never recommend for anyone to start out with C.

True, you will need to not only try C, but understand C at some point if you want to do any serious programming, because you need to understand how it all works, and no other language gives you that.

If we look at this from the curious beginners point of view, he wants something that will give some sort of results quick, makes sense, and doesn't leave him dazed and confused after the first introductory tutorial.

On the other hand. What will a programmer need to learn from the start?

First and foremost, he needs to understand what a computer program really is. He needs to understand how you make a program by devising an algorithm and implementing it. If he picks up some good habits about making readable code on the way, that's just a bonus. The core principle he needs to "get" first of all is algorithms and how they "work".

Now, we can probably debate all week about how to teach someone algorithms, but I think one of the most important things about it is not to distract the student. He shouldn't have to worry about declaring variables, freeing memory, keeping track of pointers, null-terminating strings and all that stuff. He needs to get to grips with the actual algorithms first of all. If we agree on this, then we are left with scripting languages like Python, Perl, PHP and probably quite a few others that I have either not thought about, or don't know enough about (Ruby? Scheme?). We are left with the languages that have dynamic types.

Now, the second thing the new programmer needs to know is good habits. Things like commenting code, indenting properly (I've seen C programs of 500-600 lines without a single comment or indentation... it's horrible!), and generally keeping his code readable so that not only can he come back 2 months later, but he can give it to someone else and they'll be able to understand it.

IMHO, that rules out both Perl and PHP.

Perl is the anti-thesis of structured programming, because of what is also it's strength. "There is more than one way to do it" is a nice motto for hacking together a small script on the fly to do some simple task, but it's horrible for teaching structured programming. When there is no "wrong" way to do it, the chance of doing something unintended skyrockets. Don't get me wrong. Perl has it's uses, it's just not for beginners.

PHP is slightly less "chaotic" than Perl, but suffers from a missing design. They are starting to get some thoughts on how the language is going to be in the future, but today it's mostly a bunch of different designs with a similar syntax. By experience, PHP is damned hard to keep track of while coding it. There is just no usable way to structure your data in a sensible way while maintaining a clear model of your application without something breaking along the way.

Python can be scary for seasoned programmers because of the quirks, like using indendation to designate blocks, but that's easily overcome once you realise that as the decent programmer that you are, that code would have been indented like that anyway. For a beginning programmer who has no clear view of how it "should be", the language is quite easy to get to grips with. There are very few special cases in the syntax, and there is extensive and consistent libraries that give you access to almost anything you'd like. One key point is consistency. While both Perl and PHP can rival Python in the number of libraries, both of those suffer from a lack of consistency in how the libraries are designed. In python, there is a red thread all the way through, with a clear vision for how it all is supposed to fit together.

Another language that deserves to be mentioned, if only because of the over "entusiastic" response earlier in the thread, is Lisp. Lisp is also a language that has it quirks that seem to scare away seasoned programmers, but I have yet to meet a person who has learnt Lisp and then decided it wasn't something he'd bother with. Very few other languages have such usability and staying power, so there has to be something with it that makes it good enough to cope with all those parenthesis...


/me dons asbestos suit...

Flame away!
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Unread 22 Aug 2003, 02:16   #36
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Re: Beginning programming question

Quote:
Originally posted by Squall23
Ok, recently i've decided to learn programming, applications etc.

I talked to a friend about it and he said it's better learning C# first before anything.

Is this true, also whats the difference between C# and C++.

I would like info on where to start programming on if C# was false information given.

Thanks
afaik c# is the .net version of C++.

and it helps if you have something specific in mind that you want to create. That way you can plan to some extent what you need to know.

I'd start by reading several books. Like learning spoken languages I think it's better to try and get a basic understanding of the grammar first and the vocabulary later.

Also google for course notes from universities. There's a lot of useful stuff around, for instance:
http://www.pc.cc.ca.us/edwards/VisualC++.htm
^^ complete with powerpoint presentations from lectures

~browolf
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Unread 22 Aug 2003, 02:27   #37
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Re: Re: Beginning programming question

The .NET version of C++ is called "Managed C++".
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Unread 22 Aug 2003, 03:09   #38
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PHP for learning programming

hahahahhahahahhhhaahahahaha
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Unread 22 Aug 2003, 10:29   #39
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Re: Re: Beginning programming question

Quote:
Originally posted by Browolf
afaik c# is the .net version of C++.

and it helps if you have something specific in mind that you want to create. That way you can plan to some extent what you need to know.

I'd start by reading several books. Like learning spoken languages I think it's better to try and get a basic understanding of the grammar first and the vocabulary later.

Also google for course notes from universities. There's a lot of useful stuff around, for instance:
http://www.pc.cc.ca.us/edwards/VisualC++.htm
^^ complete with powerpoint presentations from lectures

~browolf
Problem with the above tutorial is that its for Visual C++. Visual C++ isnt really the place you want to start your C++ experiance in. Visual C++ is nothing like Microsofts better known visual launguage of Visual Basic because while Visual Basic keepes everything very simple and easy Visual C++ is a highly complex enviorment . Most beginners will just look at it and be scared off programmiing for life.
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Unread 22 Aug 2003, 18:26   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
PHP for learning programming

hahahahhahahahhhhaahahahaha
See, now last night I wasn't saying it was a good language to learn programming, just a good language to get results.

I even came up with reasons why Perl is less accessible.
Real ones! Not ones involving my PC going alight!
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 00:25   #41
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Why not Pascal to just learn the fundamentals? That's what we did at uni, and it was great since I was able to pick up the concept of If, Then, Else statements, Variables, Begin & End state ments, loops etc etc. Not exactly hard to learn either, thou I don't know if there is any decent tutorials on the web for it, I haven't looked.
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Unread 26 Aug 2003, 03:23   #42
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Don't learn to program do something that involves more fresh air and people,
Or learn to program (I hear C# is nice, C C++ and Java can be quite painful. Python is my favourite).
Hi.

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