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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 07:13   #51
t3k
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Re: Make a big change

ingal farms ftl. Also, I've ignored Cowch now so don't expect me to reply to any of his posts :P

How about removing def AND gals? Fuel costs aren't "fun" though, it's just inane resource management and limiting the amount of attacks you can send in an attack-only round doesn't sound like such a great idea, sorry blood.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 08:01   #52
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Re: Make a big change

If there is no ingal attack and ingal def allowed, removing them is the logical thing to do, if it doesn't require too much work.
Fuel cost isn't 'fun', but it puts a welcome limit to the number and size of attacks people can send... if they don't plan carefully enough.

Removing def has implications that must be discussed. Making a PA round where all you do is launching attack fleets may not be fun on a 7 week period.

In a no def game I would also introduce friendly fire (with x% of a fleet firepower hitting other attacking fleets).
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 08:30   #53
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Re: Make a big change

not your own though, right?
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 08:48   #54
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Re: Make a big change

If you go for a no def round, you might as well make private galaxies.
(Buddypacks of ~8 and filling all galaxies up with randoms.)
Ingal def and fuel cost is bad for obvious reasons.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 08:49   #55
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Re: Make a big change

not enough players for BPs of 8.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 10:18   #56
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Re: Make a big change

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
Ingal def and fuel cost is bad for obvious reasons.
Don't hide behing the "obvious" word. Let discuss those reasons.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 19:43   #57
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Re: Make a big change

Agreed, this will probably be my last round until something is done to take this from "launch and recall" to an actual game. I haven't bought a credit for 2 rounds, and now with the extra VAT increase to credits ... pffft ... zpeti and the boys are gonna have to bring something to the table if they want to get credit money from me.
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 14:13   #58
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Re: Make a big change

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Don't hide behing the "obvious" word. Let discuss those reasons.
Fuel cost, as a non-trivial element of the game, is massively stagnatory.
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 15:37   #59
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Re: Make a big change

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Fuel cost, as a non-trivial element of the game, is massively stagnatory.
I think that's what Makhil is going for. Not complete stagnation, but something to slow the constant attacks of a no-def round. The key would be to find the amount of fuel costs which reasonably limits launches, without slowing the game too much.
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 16:22   #60
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Re: Make a big change

I really dislike the idea of fuel-costs - seems to contribute nothing to the game in my eyes and just punishes the active.
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 17:05   #61
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Re: Make a big change

Fuel is the key element in every modern war, it would be nice to have this aspect back into the game... it can slow down the pace at which you can launch to collect roids ? so what ? Target planets with more Eonium roids, build more E refineries, send just the right amount of ships to your target...
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 17:10   #62
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Re: Make a big change

Just because something would be more "realistic" doesn't mean it's a good idea to add it. I mean I don't want to spend six hours filling out food requisition forms in order to be able to launch an attack but I'm pretty sure that'd be more realistic. How you can't remember how ****ing dreadful eonium was is beyond me.
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 21:36   #63
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Re: Make a big change

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Originally Posted by Cowch View Post
I think that's what Makhil is going for. Not complete stagnation, but something to slow the constant attacks of a no-def round. The key would be to find the amount of fuel costs which reasonably limits launches, without slowing the game too much.
What´s the point of slowing down the pace of an all out attack round though? I mean, i you take out defending, how much do you want to idle with your fleets every day?
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 22:48   #64
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Re: Make a big change

I like the no defense idea.
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 22:58   #65
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Re: Make a big change

What the **** is wrong with you people!? Here's what a game without defence looks like:
1) Find the fattest target you can
2) Send just enough to maxcap
3) Wait 16-22 hours, rinse, repeat

Dear lord, I'd rather watch grass grow.

I'm all for making a big change, but ****, let's make one that doesn't make the game even more boring than it already is, alright?
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Unread 13 Dec 2009, 23:08   #66
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Re: Make a big change

I just can't believe it was suggested by spinner. Not all big changes are a good idea. I'm pretty sure reducing the ship stats to one ship would be a big change but it'd be ****ing terrible. A no defence round removes such a vital part of the game it's sickening. Maybe get rid of oog def or something if you're all hating on getting covered as often as you are but please go through what would actually happen.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 00:53   #67
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Re: Make a big change

I suggested it simply to break the monotomy, as was asked for by the op...
Yes, it removes a central part of the game, changes it quite a lot, and would produce a very different round than the previous ones. If this is such an unfathomable prospect to you, well, no problem for me really (-:
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 01:18   #68
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Re: Make a big change

Oh I agree it'd be hugely different. No need to get up in the middle of the night anymore would be a huge bonus in terms of how easy it is to get into the game. But effectively it just turns into a big maths formula requiring a tiny bit of activity. It's not unfathomable. It's just not really pa. I still want to play pa, not just some random browser based game involving spaceships and fighting.

Also you should totally sign up a planet and see what you think. It'd be a pretty interesting perspective and ****ing hilarious to boot.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 01:24   #69
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Re: Make a big change

If you read what I wrote here: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...5&postcount=30 I have a hunch you might discover that I already have...
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 01:33   #70
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Re: Make a big change

I hadn't seen that, interesting enough. If only someone from pateam actually read the forums maybe they'd listen to you given that they've so consistently zoned out when anyone else says the same things. How far along did you bother going by the way? It doesn't sound like you made it much further than just basically trying to find out what the game is like now.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 01:36   #71
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Re: Make a big change

In all honesty, I am in the middle of finalizing a mid-season update in ManagerLeague that stands in the way of my Xmas-vacation, and that takes most of my time. I made the account to see what it was like, and to see if any of these issues were still relevant. And I have to say I was completely put off by finding that it has only gotten worse. I mean, PA has never been all that great to look at, but we did keep the looks relatively clean. Now though, I find it to be both ugly and messy, which doesn't make for the best combination in the galaxy (pun intended)

(-:
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 01:49   #72
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Re: Make a big change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Now though, I find it to be both ugly and messy, which doesn't make for the best combination in the galaxy (pun intended)
This is actually something I've been thinking about the last few days as well. What has basically happened is that every round, a couple of things have been added to the interface. Scanners want a galaxy scan option? Ok, we'll add it in. DCs want colour coded scans? Ok, added. Players want to see the results of their population settings? Ok, we'll put it on there. I'm pretty sure I can find at least 10 other examples.

Individually, each of these changes has indeed made the game 'easier', as in, you have to click less. Taken together, they've resulted in the interface becoming hugely cluttered, with semi-related stuff on every single page, tabs and two different types of subtabs, 12 different skins, only 4 of which are reasonably well used... the list goes on.

The issue with designing a good game interface is that you need to know the game in order to do it well. A random website (like www.planetarion.com) is easy; there are guidelines for that and all you have to do is follow them and have a tiny bit of talent.

But, say, the waves page. What's more important to players, less clutter or the option to set whether or not you want to use the alliance fund for all scans? No one even knows how much that tickbox is used. It's really much more complicated and requires someone who has actually played the game, not just looked at it for a few hours.


By the way, regarding my previous post; it was aimed at the people who should know better. From what I can tell you haven't been around in a while now and just threw an idea out here. People like Kargool and Hut, however, are familiar with PA as it is now, and I (stupidly) expected a bit more insight from them.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 01:57   #73
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Re: Make a big change

Honest to god I've given up on those sorts of changes ever happening where someone on pateam actually needs to have a ****ing clue and the time/money to do something about it. That's why I've gone from this to this.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 02:11   #74
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Re: Make a big change

Of course designing a game is different from designing a website. However, is something looks like clutter, that's wrong in both games and websites alike.
The waves-page is actually one of the cleaner pages though (-:
But I have to say, I truly wonder what certain image-types has to do with any of my available-scans...
Sounds strange? What would a new user think when he reads this:
"Please note that JGPs no longer require a free slot or ships to scan with."

I have to say I am almost outright angry when I see the production-page...
I picked random race, and ended up Cathaar, so I have no idea if this is as bad for all races..but....
Lets click on some shipnames and see what happens:
Spider - No description.. ?
Widow - The newest Locust is a heavy frigate, using modified EMP emitters to permanently disable enemy destroyers and frigates. (It targets Cruisers and Battleships fs!)
Locust - After losing the plans for the original Black Widow, new ones were drawn up to help the Cathaar destroyer fleet retain a domination over capital ships. (It targets Corvettes and Fighters!)
Roach - The Tarantula is the perfect complement to the roach, temporarily disabling enemy capital ships at the start of battle. You do not have the required factory (Wrong name, the wrong description I'd wager) (And which factory am I missing?)
Tarantula - The Roach has been a mainstay of the Cathaar fleet for millenia, using its massive banks of EMP generators to freeze enemy frigates and destroyers before they can fire. (right..these two are obviously mixed up)

Thats direct misinformation on about half of the ships my race can build...This round has lasted 44 days without this being fixed? How is a new user supposed to react to such flaws?

Having a poor information-flow is really bad when it comes to new users, but to give them WRONG info is even worse.

I don't mean to be a bastard, but I just feel sad and upset when I see the state the game is currently in. Sigh...
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 02:16   #75
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Re: Make a big change

Yeah, that stuff (about ship descriptions) was pointed out a while ago by a genuine new player on the forums (who then hilariously got flamed by a regular for wasting people's time so never let it be said that it's just pateam holding the game back). I never realised the jgp thing was still there, it must be at least 10 rounds since that changed. On a basic level there's just no will to actually make the game more open to new players, and certainly nothing being invested in actually making it such.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 02:16   #76
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Re: Make a big change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Of course designing a game is different from designing a website. However, is something looks like clutter, that's wrong in both games and websites alike.
What I meant was that game interface design is much more difficult than website design. Game design is obviously something cmpletely different. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
The waves-page is actually one of the cleaner pages though (-:
You're right, actually. I just couldn't be arsed looking for a better example. :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
But I have to say, I truly wonder what certain image-types has to do with any of my available-scans...
Images? What game are you playing? :o
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 02:19   #77
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Re: Make a big change

He's referring to the jgp/jpg thing. The line "Please note that JGPs no longer require a free slot or ships to scan with." is pretty meaningless to a new player as there's no explanation of what a JGP actually is. I'd imagine most people could probably guess what it is if they cared to but that's not exactly the way forward in terms of providing information.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 02:21   #78
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Re: Make a big change

Ah. I see.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 02:26   #79
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Re: Make a big change

I pulled up the rubbish design, wrong text and the funny JPG-quote to illustrate how poorly PA now communicates with its players. Everything in the game caters only for those who have already played PA for a long time, who do not bother with descriptions and who do not need anything explained.
This seems to be a theme throughout the game, on every level, and is directly in the way of attracting new players, regardless of advertising-methods or budgets. And that a full round has been allowed to run without people sorting out such simple issues tells me everything I need to know about how my old game fares.
Gah!
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 02:36   #80
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Re: Make a big change

That I would gladly play PA in a no def round (with the flaws you point out) tells a lot of how bored I am with the current game. Anything would be better than doing a r35 looking like r33 and r34.
Maybe PA has gone below the critical number of players...
For sure a decent set of stats (like r32) would help. But I believe that in a tiny and shrinking universe, limiting the number of targets (capping, same gal, alliances, blocks, friends...) is bad.
The max member per alliance is just too high... far too high.
The galaxy setting is wrong... make more smaller (priv?) gals if you don't want to allow ingal attacks.
Adapt the game to the player base. 5 planets per gal, 20 members per alliance, to create more targets.
Give every gal some bot planets or create a whole cluster full of bot planets.
I don't mind the disagreements with other players, at least it shows some people still care. But I find the silence of PA Team distressing and I fear they will just run the game again as if there was nothing wrong.

I think we're past the problem of getting new players (in the very short term), we're now at the stage where PA needs to keep the few still there.
The mistakes in text, descriptions could be corrected in a matter of hours, it has never been done though.
The crappy design is a work of art compared to the first attempt they wanted to implement.
Regular suggestions and offers for help have been turned down, most of the time without a word.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 04:40   #81
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Re: Make a big change

The number of planets in PA has been roughly the same every round since r24.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 04:55   #82
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Re: Make a big change

Why dont we for once, just try a truely random galaxy round, rather than just pretending.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 06:25   #83
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Re: Make a big change

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The number of planets in PA has been roughly the same every round since r24.
And you managed to write that without laughing ?
We don't even get 1k planets at round start now, including all the inactives. We barely reach 1.3k by the end of the round...
Back in r24 it was twice that number... so "roughly" we only lost half the planets.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 06:27   #84
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Re: Make a big change

I have the numbers right in front of me, you are mistaken. Round 24 ended with 1429 players. Since then we've had a round with 1148 players and one with 1548 players. All other rounds fell in between those bounds. Round 22 was the last round we had significantly more planets (2534), but even that was the highest point since r18, and only because it was a free round.

You are looking at the past through overly humorous rose tinted glasses.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 17:01   #85
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Re: Make a big change

5 planets for player, 25 planets per galaxy, BP's of 3 + 2 randoms, alliance member limit of 30.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 18:08   #86
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Re: Make a big change

For the record despite PAteam's lack of response here they have a thread on the alliance HC forum (I know) in which cin puts forwards a number of changes ranging from reducing bps to 3 man ones to keeping the status quo as it is. That said he does ask for other proposed changes there (because apparently the only good suggestions can come from alliance HCs I guess) so if you want to contribute talk to your alliance HC and convince them to post your suggestion(s) on the alliances forum.
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Unread 14 Dec 2009, 22:07   #87
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Re: Make a big change

Quote:
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...that a full round has been allowed to run without people sorting out such simple issues tells me everything I need to know about how my old game fares.
Gah!
How many "people" actually have access to the DB to change these items? You could let 1 person 1 day to look over the descriptions and change them.

I find it most annoying that PA is run with so little input from the PATeam and even zPeti hasnt even posted news of any new things going on. We have so many people in the forums who come up with so many ideas (good and bad), with a little time and effort could make the game playable again.

The PATeam and owners are facing a real problem with a community getting bored and people leaving. I my self play a round then take 2-3 rounds off, just because its the same old thing for year on year.

As it stands we have only 4 days left, but i havent really been bothered with my account for over a week already, I dont mind if I over sleep on an attack, I just spend my money and then log off.

What about having a new game that starts every 2 weeks and lasts for 3 months (or however long the round lasts).

http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki...d_3:Ship_Stats

Try that for a round...

...or open all races ships to everyone (with or without the research). Imagine the fleet combos you could get... ZIK+CAT overpowered?

Also add Pod sized SK's, who cares if they get used more, this is a war game fs!

EDIT: Perhaps PATeam needs a small group of players to set up a think tank, used for fleshing out ideas and filling in plot holes...
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Unread 15 Dec 2009, 01:36   #88
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Re: Make a big change

It has one, they get ignored too.
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Unread 15 Dec 2009, 04:13   #89
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Re: Make a big change

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
EDIT: Perhaps PATeam needs a small group of players to set up a think tank, used for fleshing out ideas and filling in plot holes...
There is indeed a private development forum, a few people who have shown they understand the game have access to it. It's been pretty dead the last few months though.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 15 Dec 2009, 04:18   #90
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Re: Make a big change

Well maybe the "few people who understand the game" should play it between themselves and all the others just go play something else...
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Unread 16 Dec 2009, 23:19   #91
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Re: Make a big change

Id like to see 20 man allies.

Out of gal/ally def coded in to be impossible.

Naps coded into the game where if both alliances tick a box saying they wont allow any members to attack their stated 'allies' then no attack missions can be done on each other by the respective members.

3 man bp's + 3 randoms to start with going to a max of 8ish later (with gals also made up of pure random's if theres too few bp's). Optionally 2 sets of 2 man bp's from different alliances - with the randoms being allianceless and can only join one of the gals bp's (though this may mean that alliance-limits may need to be tweaked to 20+20 or something)

A max of 1 late signup (with possible restrictions on no late signups for the t10/20 gals)
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 23:53   #92
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Re: Make a big change

JBG, finally! Do something different

- Remove alliances in game completely. Every def fleet gets a -1 bonus
- Use some graphics to make it look less like your working on excel sheets when playing the game. Look at games like tribalwars: http://www.skawaii.net/images/tw_village.png
http://die-staemme.de/stuff/homepage/screenshot_map.jpg

I can see a planet with a huge research fascilities. A construction yard and a shipyard with fleets flying around (some flash/gifs). some gif graphics and a use galaxy map you can scroll through to find other planets (would attract new players).

Get rid of 70 ships in total. Add 8 ships in total, 1 race, everyone has the same race and same chances. Easy to understand for new player (Think of this, your a new player and reach this page: http://game.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=133681452206 <-- I'd quit).

No more Buddypacks, no more exiling, no more late signups (let fate decide!)
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 00:40   #93
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Re: Make a big change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
There is indeed a private development forum, a few people who have shown they understand the game have access to it. It's been pretty dead the last few months though.
I stopped posting there because anything non-trivial was either impossible to form a consensus on, or was never implemented by PAteam. They wouldn't even risk doing something as small as removing the alliance limit for a single round because OH MY GOD SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT THAT.

With that attitude you won't get anywhere, ever.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 09:15   #94
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Re: Make a big change

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Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Get rid of 70 ships in total. Add 8 ships in total, 1 race, everyone has the same race and same chances.
I think 8 is a little low

FI+CO+FR+DE+CR+BS+SK+POD

You need 2 or three of each, also dont forget the different types EMP, STEAL, Damage and cloak.

I would think my list of ships (if not the stats) are enough.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 15:34   #95
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Re: Make a big change

- remove exiling
- remove prelaunch
- possibility to choose which ships/class to target with your ships/fleet (ec use only T1 & T2 in stats and T3 for user definition)
- remove covert opps
- possibility to turn stolen ships into resources
- race based gals/alliances
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 18:35   #96
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Re: Make a big change

- Convert XP for resource.

I think prelaunch has to stay.

Covops should be replaced with single spys which you have to train, and also place the waves under spy control. I do think that there should be a travel timer associated with any spy action.
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Unread 20 Dec 2009, 10:47   #97
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Re: Make a big change

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
And that a full round has been allowed to run without people sorting out such simple issues tells me everything I need to know about how my old game fares.
Gah!
Seriously, we can all cut it with the nostalgic trips and "why doesn't the game team do anything" cringe. Anyone calling for a Planetarion team to work something out or read some spiced up thread is just a moron. There is no Planetarion team. There has not been an effective game design team, or anyone really putting an effort into designing/working on this game for years. Different owners have come and gone but none have really invested anything into the game design itself.

I mean, it's mostly been Appocomaster. He's not exactly getting paid, which probably, on the run of years, has done wonders to his motivation to do anything to a rotting, decaying game. Really. I mean. Oh well.
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Unread 20 Dec 2009, 20:17   #98
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Re: Make a big change

There are pretty much two threads in one here.

- How to update the face of the game to give the right info to new players and encourage them to continue playing.

- How to update the game to not be boring and lose our true PA die hard geeks.

Any chance of two threads being created with a set of bullet points at the first post of all those actual possible changes in time for next round?
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Unread 21 Dec 2009, 20:10   #99
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Re: Make a big change

Are bot planets still in the works, or on a permanent 'in progress' status?

If bot planets are almost ready for deployment, then for every player that signs up create 2 bot planets of random race, spread to random placement in the universe with a random set of "active" times.

I also wonder how hard it would be to add in a random event system? Like a 1:1000 chance your fleet was able to 'Use a gravity well to increase their travel speed, thus landing 1 tick early.'
Or a 1:25 chance that morale on your mining crew was up and your mining output is increased by X(1-5)% for Y(1-6) ticks.
Even chances of losing 1-10% of your fleet from mechanical failure to radiation poisoning...

I mean, it would a take a little coding, but I think it would be possible to add some flavor in an otherwise repetitive system.

As far as the Alliance cap limit, a smaller cap would be nice. This round there were roughly 1300 planets. With a alliance cap of 2% of this rounds population it would be 26 members per alliance in the next round, rounded up to the next 5, and it makes 30 members. That gives a wider variety of targets and ppl can be a little more selective of who they allow to join their alliance.

I welcome criticism of my thoughts.
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 01:44   #100
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Re: Make a big change

I would like to reiterate to people at this point that asking for changes that involve a lot of coding is only slightly more realistic than getting down on your knees and asking Zeus to hurl lightning bolts at the game in order to make it better. It may not be pateam's fault but either way it's just not something worth talking about right now.
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