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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 00:56   #151
JonnyBGood
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
or hidden production, i hid huge amounts this round but the benefit was dubious - in another thread Zotham/Golan said he thought my massive hidden hindered rather than helped my progress - I disagree but it certainly failed in helping me find xp which was my original intention!
Hidden production is a fairly appalling way of playing PA. The interesting thing about some of the tactics that have come up recently is that they're actually retarded. People who insisted omb was virtually cheating by getting exiled to c200 ignored the fact it was a dreadfully poor tactic anyways. He finished what, 25th having exiled in when he was first? Good returns there. Equally hiding production hinders your alliance's effectiveness. Military power wins wars, ships win wars, keeping away incs slightly better when there's a raid on your gal doesn't.

Quote:
Intel is I find, even for me too hard to get hold of, requiring an open intel policy by your alliance, unrelated to these educational aims... perhaps ppl should be taught how to use sandmans as a substitute for those of us who dont have intel access, which is dont forget most of the universe.
Having played with decent intel every round since r16 I honestly find it difficult to understand how people can stand that. I also find it helps a lot in terms of both morale and efficiency. You can see your own alliance doing well, you can see if it's slipping and more needs to be done. In a war situation you can find targets quickly without needing to talk to anyone. For defence in ascendancy we actually use the ingame system and I've found it helps quite a bit if used properly. The player can double check the DC's work by looking at the calc and fleets incoming etc, people can see retals by covered/uncovered calls quickly, shit like that. One of the things I did in exilition in r23 was run retals and I have to say this system is miles better than what we used then (especially with the fact that incoming fleets which recall are automatically updated on the ingame def page), sure you lose a little focus probably but to claim your select group of 5 odd hcs are the only ones qualified to direct fleets is ignoring the vast potential inherent in any ally's memberbase.

Everyone seems to follow the first models that we used in pa even thirty rounds later, which would be surprising if it wasn't for human nature I guess. Hierarchies are useful sometimes but christ they can be ****ing pointless at a lot of others. The fact of the matter is that as well as being more fun playing with more information (and hey guys I'm pretty sure the reason people play games is to have fun so maybe if your members are having more fun they're more likely to keep playing and playing hard) it's actually a good idea in its own right. Every round it seems some retarded gimp hangs around and steals our intel (usually in spectacularly retarded fashion) but it rarely matters. Not only does nobody use fakenicking/member hiding that well, it's just not that great a strategy.

Quote:
Perhaps there are many things U do that I dont that I should be doing, my ignorance so clearly stopped me this round!
Yeah man you really outplayed everyone this round.


To directly respond to this thread I don't think ascendancy are that good. We made a number of mistakes this round, even down to simple shit like crashing fleets. A lot of it is self-belief though, and I guess to some extent belief in who's leading you (that's me!) A winning mentality breeds success, as well as complacency it has to be said. I remember during the round I was reading a book which remarked on a difference between commanders and leaders which I felt reflected PA rather aptly given the name we use so much, "HCs". The author stated that the difference between commanders and leaders is that while a commander says "go over there" a leader says "come with me". I think people respond better to the second. When you see someone who is willing to lay it all out on the line for you and sacrifice for you and your team you're much more likely to respond the same way to them. And that's what makes a good alliance, 75 members who would destroy their planet to save each other, 75 members who would destroy their planet to make their alliance win. Winning takes sacrifice, you have to put in the hard yards at some point, that's why they're hard.

I'm not quite sure what ascendancy will, or should, do next round. Without trying to sound too up my own arse I don't think there's that much genuine competition out there, this was a really half-assed alliance win from a lot of us in ascendancy and while winning is usually better than losing it rather lost its edge for me a bit this round. Perhaps PA would benefit from a bit of a mix-up at the top, it's all gotten a bit stagnant recently to be honest. That said pateam haven't even announced yet if there's going to be a next round so we'll have to wait and see!
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 01:14   #152
[B5]Londo
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

Heh JBG in on the action, I give up completely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah man you really outplayed everyone this round.
I was in no way claiming to have outplayed anyone, I freely acknowledged in the 'who we were' thread that my success was based on luck not skill, my point was simply that ignorance does not stop you doing ok if you are active, my r25 performance is perhaps a better example as I was truly a nub then. All the fancy strategy helps but it is not vital.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 01:48   #153
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

Hello there.

Can I just point out that this belongs to AD?

Thanks.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 02:21   #154
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I was in no way claiming to have outplayed anyone, I freely acknowledged in the 'who we were' thread that my success was based on luck not skill, my point was simply that ignorance does not stop you doing ok if you are active, my r25 performance is perhaps a better example as I was truly a nub then. All the fancy strategy helps but it is not vital.
I was actually just saying that planet ranks are really meaningless in terms of what we were talking about.

Quote:
Can I just point out that this belongs to AD?

Thanks.
A worthwhile contribution if ever we've had one.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 03:04   #155
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
in another thread Zotham/Golan said he thought my massive hidden hindered rather than helped my progress - I disagree but it certainly failed in helping me find xp which was my original intention!
I hope that isn't what I said, because big prod hiding is very good on a selfish level (more xp from lands, more small easy targets to attack, less likely to get inc), but its terrible on both alliance and galaxy level for several reasons.
At some point it becomes clever, and it arguebly cost Achi the win (oh so many things cost you the win when ranks end so close) to release his prod every few days when asc had already won because he picked up less xp on his lands, while sunny kept a good chunk of score in prod untill the last ticks.
Stuhlman and omb also did prod hiding at points in the round, both with very selfish motives.

You often hear in (american) sports, when there's most at stake give the ball to your best players and let them win the game for you, in many ways that's how alliances play, except they IGNORE everyone but their "best" players in EVERY play before that also.. The more people feel they are involved, the more they are willing to give basicly, even if someone only wants to be involved for 1 night, let them What I think is a big reason for all this sectrecy is when someone has easy-to-cover uncovered inc and looks at the ally page, it will actually show him exactly where his def went (mostly to dc's/hc's) and some people in charge would have things to explain. Those high in the hierarchies are milking it in every alliance tbh, and if there was a more open policy it would hurt their planet. Nothing is a boost for a member like seeing 300+ fleets incoming on the ally and still only minimal losses. If your ally is having a tough time, the members can see exactly how tough instead of having some HC exaggerating it, or in denial's case, the hc's whining on the forums about it heh. In game def page is honestly damn good now, feels like its underused by most alliances.
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Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
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Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 06:53   #156
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

I'd have to agree with JBG: the individual players in Ascendancy really aren't that good. They tend to engage in some ****ing appalling things on a fairly regular basis. Notwithstanding that, most of the players seem to enjoy it, because everyone is essentially treated the same. I think a lot of our supposed 'skill' is actually a structural thing - its the way the alliance is set up, not the people in the alliance that make it effective.

You might respond by saying "well my alliance is filled with spastic retards, we couldn't possibly arrange things like asc." Well you'd be wrong. Your alliance is filled with spastic retards, but that's not the problem.

The problem is simply that the traditional alliance hierarchy hasn't changed much since round 1. This is silly. HC's are traditionally a bunch of egotistical self centred idiots who skim the best defence. DC's are overburdened, lazy and tend to **** something up at least 30% of the time. Intel officers (if they exist) are superfluous. I have a sneaking suspicion that def points/ attack points are counter-productive and pointless as well. An obsession with secrecy is utterly pointless after about tick 200.

So where does that leave us? The hierarchy is useless, do away with it. Have some people who are less useless than all the rest running the inter alliance side of things. This does not mean they are Lords of the Universe; there is no need for this messiah complex (that even asc has (Hi JBG)).

Give everyone access to intel. It's helpful and makes the game more fun. See JBG's post. It is important.

Do away with DC's. Let people run their own def in the first instance - trust them a bit to know when something is/is not covered. If people want to do more/organise shit for their galmates, let them do it. Let your members tell them to **** off when it looks like its over covered. As a last resort, encourage some people to step up and take over calls. Don't just leave it to the same people every night, it encourages complacency.

Make people pay attention to the alliance def page on a regular basis, get everyone to take a more active roll in the call list ("is x covered?" "no" "ok who has ships for x?") - anyone with the ability to read can do that - its not rocket science.

Do those things, and you'll be on par with asc without much effort at all.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 08:31   #157
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
It only requires a block to kill ascendancy, like it required a block to kill denial, whats the difference.

Asc can do punny nothing if "whole game" targets them as it been the case with others....
Asc was accussed of cheating in rd 26 and pretty much the whole universe went after asc where Asc gal mates were told by their HC not to defend them or report their incoming ,the universe against Asc didnt work because it was half arsed and badly run
but what it did do was make the Asc members get off their arse's and get active
the problem is very few people see the big picture and the hc of the rest of the allys only care about their alliance rankings and thats the problem
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 10:37   #158
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
I hope that isn't what I said, because big prod hiding is very good on a selfish level (more xp from lands, more small easy targets to attack, less likely to get inc), but its terrible on both alliance and galaxy level for several reasons.
My hidden was released when Aud went to war, and on the occasions of major gal raids, indeed I always dropped the hidden so it could fly in defence rather than hoping to catch an unwary attacker, it was never intended to be held so long - indeed it became a major worry that i would accidentally cancel it - our gal simply never got the incomings so it kept growing.
As to whether it was a problem for the alliance thats also debatable because Aud very obviously struggled to cover me when attacked so if hidden reduced attacks on me, one of its main purposes is that extra worry factor, it performed a service as much as a disservice. As it stands I was by a long way a net contributer.

Equally, because Terr DE is 100% attack fleet, if I had been larger; thus hitting larger targets I would simply have taken even more of my fleet on attack - the amount of my fleet contributed to alliance defence would have been very similar - possibly even less as bigger players get relatively better defence and an exponential curve of more ships is required to get through them up to the biggest ppl who see teamups of tens of millions in value.

Nonetheless the point is pertinent that hidden production is unlikely to be a tactic taught by an alliance in the way HaNzI proposes.

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Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
DC's are overburdened, lazy and tend to **** something up at least 30% of the time.
How can they be both Lazy and overburdened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling View Post
] Do away with DC's. Let people run their own def in the first instance - trust them a bit to know when something is/is not covered. If people want to do more/organise shit for their galmates, let them do it. Let your members tell them to **** off when it looks like its over covered. As a last resort, encourage some people to step up and take over calls. Don't just leave it to the same people every night, it encourages complacency.
Perhaps I may be criticized for sending too little, but Aud due to a lack of DCs had DCing gaps at points this round where ppl DCed themselves, this lead to over-covering of those ppl who called themselves..... and ofc nothing for those who were tucked up in bed.
However on the whole I think I would far prefer to DC only my own incomings and let others DC theirs; Perhaps with an officer/HC in an oversight role checking ppls calcs etc.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 10:46   #159
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
How can they be both Lazy and overburdened?
hehe, if they are lazy they become overburdened very quickly

tho I think its difficult to define someone who is giving up a lot of their time for their alliance to dc as lazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Having played with decent intel every round since r16 I honestly find it difficult to understand how people can stand that. I also find it helps a lot in terms of both morale and efficiency. You can see your own alliance doing well, you can see if it's slipping and more needs to be done. In a war situation you can find targets quickly without needing to talk to anyone.
I could not agree more, however unfortunately most HC dont see it like that, I have had arguments with the HC of most alliances I have been in just to try to persuade them to give officers access to intel... they probably would have kicked me if I had pushed for full intel access to all members!

I also agree with using the ingame system, and allowing pretty open access too it. I certainly noticed that in TGV regularly the officers sent defence without ever coming on IRC, and it would have been much more efficient that trying to organise where some members would send through in game mail that occurred occasionally. Unfortunately the times that I have been in alliances where for a while we did not have an attack points or even defence points system members have tended to demand it, I think people like to do !points of IRC to see how many they have and like to see them accumulate!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Do away with DC's. Let people run their own def in the first instance - trust them a bit to know when something is/is not covered. If people want to do more/organise shit for their galmates, let them do it. Let your members tell them to **** off when it looks like its over covered. As a last resort, encourage some people to step up and take over calls. Don't just leave it to the same people every night, it encourages complacency.
YES I agree!! as a rather demoralised DC I would love to see this happen in more alliances than just ascendancy, it is so much more efficiant if someone is able to dc themselves simply because there is two way communication both with alliance and with galaxy and you know what ships you have home. It takes away the problems of there being no DCs on, and means there is no one but yourself to blame for defence. It is much better to entrust your fleet to yourself than someone else, you have no idea how the dc operates, it may be someone like me who waits until something is certainly covered before sending or someone who sends as they go along, and as you cant check on the status of a call you rely on jgps or the dc remembering that particular call and being able to dig up a battlecalc (in the case of audentes this round from memory as it was not stored anywhere!). The dc system that most alliances employ seems to be unnecessarily bureaucratic and not worth keeping, all it does is create additional stress for both members and dcs.

on the other hand its good to have some verity of alliances and alliance systems, best to have some trying out the hierarchical system however it is a shame that there have not been more alliances that have been willing to follow ascendancy's example, this seems odd given how successful they have been.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 11:44   #160
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

In pa terms, i dont think there is anything better then an alliance that can have its members phoned when incs come and def is needed and phoned when ships need recall so fleets are constantly being moved around the universe, but also an alliance where its members can simply set up an attack if they can be bothered? its a win win situation in Ascendancy, you can do what you want while doing as little as possible or quite alot, including teaming with other allys, setting big raids up on individual planets etc.

If Ascendancy do play next round, and play meaning "play", they will win, easily. If they dont play then heh, CT may win? maybe thats whats needed for PA, maybe its not but on a serious note, i hope asc plays and i hope everyone teams on them and takes them down, but we shall see!

In regards to HC's etc of alliances, i really think they should spend more time with the players on a lower level, helping guide them and just maybe teaming with them, suggesting this and that... but i dont think the personal care is around in the alliances these days... I also think some HCs abuse powers far too much, by NOT BEING TAXED and big hidden is pretty pathetic, *cough* Denial *cough*.

In regards to intel, ive always had it since R19 i think and without it i doubt i would be bothered to play.. Morale boosting FTW!!
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 12:41   #161
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

By popular demand, I've moved this to my jurisdiction, with a permanent redirect in PD.

I won't even attempt to compete with JBG's high quality post, but I agree with his broad analysis that the success of Ascendancy is being achieved through its systems of information sharing and empowerment rather than necessarily the playing ability of its members.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 13:13   #162
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

As I recall, the purpose of Ascendancy from its inception was to show that there were other ways of playing this game, and that the traditional way of structuring an alliance was overly complex, inefficient and unnecessary.

On that measure, Ascendancy has been an abject failure.

I'd like to see more alliances taking up some of the ideas put forward in this thread. Chuck your intel access away for starters, rearrange or remove your DC system to encourage people to selfcover, and ditch the overly rigid hierarchy of HCs/DCs/IOs/ACs and god knows what else.

Fix that, and good players might actually want to play for your alliance again.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 13:19   #163
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

I think a large factor in Ascendancy's recent successes has been down to member coordination. Everyone's (almost, anyway) phone numbers are available, and people are willing to get online for defence when called. This is very similar I'd expect to the kind of requirements (edit: it is not a requirement for Asc, everything is voluntary) placed on 1up and eXi members (speaking from an outside perspective and speculating).
I doubt the same requirements are placed on ND and CT members.

The system in which DCs operate is a factor, but simply having access to all your members is far more important.

It's true though that the winning mentality and the leadership style have an affect on individuals' commitments, and make them more willing to play at this higher level of activity.

As an aside, I disagree with the consensus of many Ascendancy members that the old hierarchical models are outdated and useless in current times. There are those out there that need to be commanded (although some will surprise you and adapt and perform, I do not think this is the majority case), and there are those whose loyalties are spread and cannot be trusted.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 13:23   #164
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

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This is very similar I'd expect to the kind of requirements (edit: it is not a requirement for Asc, everything is voluntary) placed on 1up and eXi members (speaking from an outside perspective and speculating).
As a point of interest, 1up never really did the phoning thing in any organized fashion, which I suspect is a sizable part of why they never won in a round exilition played. (As eXilition were, afaik, pretty hardcore with the phoning.)
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As an aside, I disagree with the consensus of many Ascendancy members that the old hierarchical models are outdated and useless in current times. There are those out there that need to be commanded (although some will surprise you and adapt and perform, I do not think this is the majority case), and there are those whose loyalties are spread and cannot be trusted.
I don't think they're outdated just because they lack efficiency. I think they're outdated because it's a ****ing game ffs.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 13:35   #165
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

At what point does a game become a life style?
The answer to that question, and the amount of time some people put into this game might hold the keys to the real problem.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 14:21   #166
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

After some reflection, perhaps the problem does not lie with HCs but with members, here's an alternate take on things:

If more members were to volunteer themselves as officers, DCs, then we would essentially reach the point that people have been debating that all members should take responsibility for their own defence. I've never known alliances to turn down surplus officers if they were all good enough, and furthermore I know that in some cases DCs enjoy competing for most covered calls.

If everyone was picking up some of the slack, there would be less requirement for individuals to put in extreme amounts of their time, thus reducing everyone to a similar status. And because everyone is pulling their own weight and acting as a trustworthy officer, everyone gets access to intel.

So maybe the problem lies not with untrusting HCs, but with inadequate members.

Now remember that the majority of Ascendancy members come from backgrounds of HCing or as officers.

This of course raises the question as to whether or not there really are "skills" required of being an officer, I think there are skills that can be taught, but this is a discussion for another thread altogether.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 15:53   #167
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

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Now remember that the majority of Ascendancy members come from backgrounds of HCing or as officers.
I doubt that's true anymore.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 21:50   #168
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

I pretty sure over half the Asc playabase been hc/officers before, including me
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Unread 23 Dec 2008, 00:50   #169
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

I don't think it matters. There's no special IQ requirement to be an "officer", it doesnt require a degree from MIT. Planetarion is already a fairly complicated game... If a player can work out how to play the game, then they're probably more than capable of running their own defence calls.
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Unread 23 Dec 2008, 01:11   #170
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

I've never been a HC/Officer in an alliance. I volunteered my time in 1up to help with defense, simply because there was a distinct lack of coverage in certain timezones...and being from North America helped fill in some of the gaps.

That being said, I still spent plenty of nights noticing the channel for x ship at y eta, and had little or no response. We had no organized calling system, and iirc, Bowser was just used to book attacks and had no !eff type commands.

I would say the openness of intel and information, coupled with an attitude of "you get out of it what you put into it" has made Ascendancy what it is, or what it was supposed to be.

That, and Munin is quite possibly the the most awesome thing I've seen in 8 years of PA.
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Unread 23 Dec 2008, 13:02   #171
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

<3 Munin


i kinda liked last round although i only played 8 days .. but having been inside ascendancy for the last 3 or 4 rounds and having been in ministry when it was ran 'hardcore' the whole idea is indeed that you all share the load, think for yourself and act as one.

That is always easier being said then done, but Jonny has made a rather straightforward post on this. Especially the intel sharing. Because everyone wants to see what the opposition is doing, anyone with half a brain and access to both sandmans and a half-assed memberslist of the opposition can see what is happening and can see that at some point more then half the CT fleets landed at an awkward time ... and act on it and retal them to bits..... no special skill needed there .. just the opportunity.

Also the motivational aspect is not to be underestimated in this game....
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Unread 27 Dec 2008, 10:21   #172
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

The sweet thing is that nothing changed since round 3.

Hello!
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 15:13   #173
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Re: So yeh enough of this Asc > *, but my alliance coulda been better if crap

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The sweet thing is that nothing changed since round 3.

Hello!
Yes something have changed , less ppl and the ppl left is more lazy , even the game is done for lazy ppl
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