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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 14:48   #1
Appocomaster
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Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

This round has seen the implentation of a few new features - the alliance tax system and alliance scanning system in particular.


I've finished tweaking the system - this should of course have been done in the beta testing, but the system did work in the beta testing and these are just generally minor fixes / improvements to make things easier. An example is the "summary" option on the tax system to summarise what otherwise could be 60,000 entries on a page.

The last changes I've done:

-default to "no fund" when fund has less than the "minimum" required resources.
-alliance fund log / alliance history log / alliance tax log now sortable
-box on waves.pl to never take resources from the fund. [about to be implemented - just found issues with them]

If they're not using resources from the fund, their scans currently aren't logged in the "alliance scan log", for the record.

After thinking through all the possiblities, it's not possible to take resources from the alliance fund to scan via the galaxy page if it has less than the minimum amount of each resource in the fund, but it is still possible on the waves page to do it in an "emergency".


I've created this thread really to talk over these new features (and any related alliance ones) - what changes do you think need to be made to this system for next round?

For example, do we need to wait until tick 72 to use the "share scans" button and set ourselves available for tax? The alliance fund is only available tick 72, but does that mean that we shouldn't tax until then?

Is setting up someone to tax them too complicated? Having them have to, in effect, offer to contribute before you can tax them.

Are the logs still too complicated to use now they can be sorted and (in the case of taxes) summarised? Maybe the alliance fund can be summarised by a similar method to the tax system? Should taxes be in the alliance fund log?
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 16:28   #2
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

only thing I'd like to see ( not that I haven't ragged you in pm already about it or anything) is the ability for scanners to check the no fund box and leave it so all scans don't take from the ally fund until to check the box to do so instead of having to check it every scan. (if I missed that this has been implemented already my bad)
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 18:29   #3
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

why is the allie option the most important thing in pa nowadays? taxes and logs and all sorts of crap do you guys have time to waste time on instead of actually doing some good with the game

kinda stupid :/
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 18:47   #4
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
why is the allie option the most important thing in pa nowadays? taxes and logs and all sorts of crap do you guys have time to waste time on instead of actually doing some good with the game

kinda stupid :/
as are most of your comments.............


incase you haven't noticed for the last 18 rounds alliance interaction and play (not to mention the competition the alliance factor adds to the game, considering it probably wouldn't be here were it not for alliances) IS a big part of this game, this improves the user interface, any change that improves the abilities of the player and/or alliance is certainly worth discussion and implementation
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 19:25   #5
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

actually, ducky, its the focus on allies that are slowly killing the game.

so in my opinion you talk bs, this game isnt all about allies, its about players who for better attacks and some def joins an allie

owell
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 19:45   #6
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

take alliances out of this game you have no game, there will always be some form of teamwork, be it organized alliances, like we have now with in game features, or unsupported alliances much like we had in early rounds....

anyways, the point of discussion is the addition and changes to alliance funds, tax features, and scan abilities...I'm sure there are plenty of other threads you can argue about alliances on
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Last edited by aNgRyDuCk; 20 Jul 2006 at 19:53.
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 19:53   #7
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

well actually i didnt post to you m8, it was to the first post

what you have to say about the matter are totally useless info to me
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 19:55   #8
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

and my reply was in response to your alliance comment having nothing to do with the point of conversation......

your really beginning to bore the hell out of me...

will gladly reply to any VALID or connected comments to my original post......
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 20:12   #9
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

I had one thing to say about the taz pages. When you click view alliance tax log and then click Alliance Fund Tax Records, that page freezes and crashes my browser. I'm guessing it is because of the enomorous amount of data on that page. Not sure if anyone else is having that problem. I don't see a need for that page anyway. Just my 2 cents
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 20:14   #10
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikman
I had one thing to say about the taz pages. When you click view alliance tax log and then click Alliance Fund Tax Records, that page freezes and crashes my browser. I'm guessing it is because of the enomorous amount of data on that page. Not sure if anyone else is having that problem. I don't see a need for that page anyway. Just my 2 cents
that's fixed now, it defaults to the tick by tick summary
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 20:18   #11
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

i think an option where u can put in the minimum of the roid count a person should have... would be nice.. for instance ahum 150 roids..

further everyone should pay taxes since the scanners scan for every one.. so that should not be option that u can choice be default..
when someone joins an ally he/she agrees to its rules, so i geuss with paying taxes also

since scanners can scan direclty from fund i c no problem in that..
that one can add more scanners then 7 would be nice to..
(/me gives appoco a deadly look)

a side note :
could u 2 kiss and make up ?

robbie and ducky that is..
u 2 sound both silly
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 20:59   #12
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

I wouldn't mind seeing maybe an additional feature added to the scanning page, in that the drop-down for selecting scanner shows how many Wave Amps they have, perhaps it could also reveal what level of wave research they've completed. Someone could have a ton of amps, but if they haven't completed any research they're almost useless.
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 22:13   #13
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I wouldn't mind seeing maybe an additional feature added to the scanning page, in that the drop-down for selecting scanner shows how many Wave Amps they have, perhaps it could also reveal what level of wave research they've completed. Someone could have a ton of amps, but if they haven't completed any research they're almost useless.
i geuss u dont have close contact with ur scanners ?
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 22:24   #14
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I wouldn't mind seeing maybe an additional feature added to the scanning page, in that the drop-down for selecting scanner shows how many Wave Amps they have, perhaps it could also reveal what level of wave research they've completed. Someone could have a ton of amps, but if they haven't completed any research they're almost useless.
Fair point, I could do that quite easily :-)
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 22:25   #15
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG-izer
i geuss u dont have close contact with ur scanners ?
For those times when I don't feel like running to each scanner and saying, "Hey, what scan you up to now?"
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 22:25   #16
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG-izer
i think an option where u can put in the minimum of the roid count a person should have... would be nice.. for instance ahum 150 roids..

further everyone should pay taxes since the scanners scan for every one.. so that should not be option that u can choice be default..
when someone joins an ally he/she agrees to its rules, so i geuss with paying taxes also

since scanners can scan direclty from fund i c no problem in that..
that one can add more scanners then 7 would be nice to..
(/me gives appoco a deadly look)

a side note :
could u 2 kiss and make up ?

robbie and ducky that is..
u 2 sound both silly
if robbie and duckie want to have more of an issue, I'll happily delete the posts.
I don't see why some alliances would want to tax *everyone*, even everyone excluding the scanners and those over x roids.
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 22:33   #17
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
if robbie and duckie want to have more of an issue, I'll happily delete the posts.
I don't see why some alliances would want to tax *everyone*, even everyone excluding the scanners and those over x roids.
so some ppl dun need scans then ? FINE by me
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Unread 20 Jul 2006, 23:14   #18
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
if robbie and duckie want to have more of an issue, I'll happily delete the posts.
I don't see why some alliances would want to tax *everyone*, even everyone excluding the scanners and those over x roids.

because scans/amps are rediculous expensive, and scanners generally cannot generate the neccesary income alone to support their builds and scans, thus, the alliance members are taxed and the scanners income supplemented
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Unread 21 Jul 2006, 04:03   #19
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

I don't actually see why alliances should have all those extra benefits.. next to.. getting def, mass attack galaxies together, having scanners anyway etc.etc...

Why not give some benefit for the individualists and randoms for a change.. but I guess, there's nothing smart to come up with, while more and more options are given to those oh so great alliances
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Unread 21 Jul 2006, 06:05   #20
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by randal
I don't actually see why alliances should have all those extra benefits.. next to.. getting def, mass attack galaxies together, having scanners anyway etc.etc...
You dont see why cooperating with others improves your performance?

And what does this have to do with game features? The fact that cooperating allows for better attacks/defence/scans etc is not an ingame feature, it isnt a benefit given to alliances, its the innate advantage of cooperation.

Quote:
Why not give some benefit for the individualists and randoms for a change.. but I guess, there's nothing smart to come up with, while more and more options are given to those oh so great alliances
There are plenty of features in this game (including newer features) that have nothing to do with alliances, so what are you talking about?
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Unread 21 Jul 2006, 10:03   #21
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
because scans/amps are rediculous expensive, and scanners generally cannot generate the neccesary income alone to support their builds and scans, thus, the alliance members are taxed and the scanners income supplemented
thats what i ment
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Unread 21 Jul 2006, 10:54   #22
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

well why not make scans free then? as it was before scanners runned out of res so the mofo with loads of blockers couldnt be scanned.

but now the superscanner got access to res thenever he needs it kinda removes the dynamics with scans and blockers.

so what do ppl want? as scanning is only a problem for the small guy or allies without didicated 24/7 scanners.

but thats maybe ok for the larger allies as they get the upper hand in any battle.

sorry remove allie taxes and supported scanners or make all scans free as its just a fiddle with res nowadays
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Unread 21 Jul 2006, 11:30   #23
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
incase you haven't noticed for the last 18 rounds alliance interaction and play (not to mention the competition the alliance factor adds to the game, considering it probably wouldn't be here were it not for alliances) IS a big part of this game, this improves the user interface, any change that improves the abilities of the player and/or alliance is certainly worth discussion and implementation
I think robban actually has a point here. In terms of attracting new players concentrating on the alliance aspects of the game, and conversely not developing the more immediate gameplay side as much as you can, is a poor idea. I dislike this idea because basically it saves alliances from their own incompetence. I guess it was set up to try and force alliances to bring scanners intag but realistically it doesn't accomplish that as there are ways of getting the same benefits without being intag.
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Unread 21 Jul 2006, 11:33   #24
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well why not make scans free then? as it was before scanners runned out of res so the mofo with loads of blockers couldnt be scanned.

but now the superscanner got access to res thenever he needs it kinda removes the dynamics with scans and blockers.
This makes almost zero sense to me. Firstly any competent scanner has covert-ops and can gain 25k res each tick, and scaling upwards, for the entire round once they have bank-transfers. Secondly surely you just ask your galaxy for a temporary donation. Has anyone actually experienced a situation where a scan of someone with a huge number of blockers couldn't be found because the scanners with more amps than his blockers just couldn't get together enough resources?
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Unread 21 Jul 2006, 12:26   #25
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

im almost scanner every round to help out my ally..
a good scanner does not need the fund.. cose of CO..

but not all scanners are that good..
so a lill bit support from the alliance is not bad.. specially since a scanner offers her/his free time and mostly also the credit to the alliance to help the alliance out..
so whats wrong to give them also a hand.. so they can relax a bit ?

after all a alliance is about playing togheter, help eachother.. and have fun
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 09:43   #26
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
I've finished tweaking the system - this should of course have been done in the beta testing, but the system did work in the beta testing and these are just generally minor fixes / improvements to make things easier.
Has nothing been learnt from the last 20-odd rounds? :|
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 14:11   #27
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG-izer
im almost scanner every round to help out my ally..
a good scanner does not need the fund.. cose of CO..

but not all scanners are that good..
so a lill bit support from the alliance is not bad.. specially since a scanner offers her/his free time and mostly also the credit to the alliance to help the alliance out..
so whats wrong to give them also a hand.. so they can relax a bit ?

after all a alliance is about playing togheter, help eachother.. and have fun
thank-you to the voice of reason.

shall we remember that scanners are people are giving up their chance to have a decent planet.

pay for their planet and join alliances yet rarely get defence

get moaned at because they are not online just when their alliance mates are demanding their scan.

complained too when they dont have jumpgates when its not even mathematically possible to have them.

choose races they wouldnt choose for the game if they were anything but scanners to get better amp production or research time.

people dedicated to team playing, as they are playing for the team or alliance or galaxy .


dont every say they do not deserve support .. wether its coded in or not .. they do .. the scanner is as important to the game as a dc is.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 19:44   #28
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Smile Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
why is the allie option the most important thing in pa nowadays? taxes and logs and all sorts of crap do you guys have time to waste time on instead of actually doing some good with the game

kinda stupid :/
as are most of your comments.............


incase you haven't noticed for the last 18 rounds alliance interaction and play (not to mention the competition the alliance factor adds to the game, considering it probably wouldn't be here were it not for alliances) IS a big part of this game, this improves the user interface, any change that improves the abilities of the player and/or alliance is certainly worth discussion and implementation

Actually this game would still have around 80.000 planets each round with up to 60.000 actual players if they hadnt first begun asking money for it and then F'd the game over so bad its nothing like it used to be... people who came to play planetarion in rounds 1 through 4 that I know are simply offended when I ask them to consider playing the game the way it is today, and all cheating aside I do believe rounds 3 and 4 were the rounds where the universe was most populated... So maybe in the first place they shouldn't have done as much as they did about the game itsself... but now that they have, I can definately see the necessity to keep building on the Alliance part because it is the only thing that keeps the current players playing... and by making them happy they may have a better chance at those players trying to bring new people in...

Lets face it though.. the way the game is today... knowing how it is... I doubt anyone reading these forums even would start playing this game...
when you know any alliance worth mentioning wont believe a word u say unless they got means to verify it
and they all demand good knowledge of how to play...

(myself in Vengeance I know there are alliances that simply tell recruits "yeah go apply there and tell em to teach u how to play... see ya later" (and yes, some of them do end up with us, coz we dont care. nana nana nanaaa and sh**)


but yeah on topic... I dont really have anything to declare about the alliance fund.. I think its something that should've been there when alliances went ingame.. just like there's a galaxy fund to share resources with 'your allies' :-)
And I do think with the concern shown for the communities opinion in this matter they are doing good work. Regardless of what it adds to gamePLAY it does add to the game.

Last edited by WesseH; 27 Jul 2006 at 19:53.
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Unread 27 Jul 2006, 20:24   #29
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
shall we remember that scanners are people are giving up their chance to have a decent planet.
That depends on your definition of "decent." I was a scanner a few rounds back, still ended up among the top in my alliance (around rank 300 in game). This was before alliance fund.

Scanners have built-in advantages of their own. Almost unblockable Fleet Analysis makes them much easier to defend (especially later in the round against huge Ziks). I also found that many of the targets with huge distorters also had huge gaps in their fleets, so my attacks often landed easily.

But, in any case, that's not what this thread is about.

I think it'd be cool to have some message system through the alliance page that you could use to get in touch with scanners who aren't currently on irc. Obviously it would have to be "filtered" so that it wouldn't be too easy to get their coordinates. Maybe like a "request scan" button that sends a mail to any ally scanner online, or something like that. Seems to me that the problem is not always that scanners aren't online, just that they aren't easily reachable.
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Unread 1 Aug 2006, 13:20   #30
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Re: Alliance Fund, Tax, Scanners, etc

Although nt entirely on the point the messages about Alliances spoiling the game are valid. My gal is in the top 40 atm and throughtout the game so far we have been lucky with big attacks against us since there are members from a number of the bigger alliances in it.

I tell this because it seems to me that a situation has arisen that the dedication to the alliance is way too strong. Some of the bigger members in my gal have been defended from many of the smaller members of the gal and yet do little to assist in the defence of the gal in return because of 'Alliance Orders'.

As a returning non allied player, I found that the imediate interface (My gal) was the major contributor to the enjoyment of the game since I could see and discuss how these players played and learned from them. Not through the alliance channels but form those around me who had a genuine reason to see me prosper with a view to see the gal grow. However the more I play the more I see that players arent interested in seeing their immediate members grow only the alliance they are tied into.

So in my view the tax should be just that a TAX(not just an inhouse redistribution of resources as it seems to be) on you for being in an alliance then maybe people would actually help the GALAXY rather than the alliance. The resources actually get 'LOST' rather than used in other words.
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