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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 20:13   #1
All Systems Go
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MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

So what are the rules concerning having your face used on television?

You see some faces blanked out (I would imagine) because they did not give their consent, rather than being pig ugly. If their faces were shown, would they have the right to sue?

What about criminals? there are people on the thread title show whose faces are shown on tv, who (I'm again) assuming do not consent to have their faces shown on tv. Can they sue? What if they are guilty of a crime, do they lose their right to anominity? If so, to what extent and for what type of crime?
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 20:55   #2
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

I do not know the law on it, but for instance in demonstrations that go violent the press does not blank out faces. This is beacause you're doing something in a public space that can be considered news and thus is not protected by privacy as you would be in your home or at a private arrangement.
I guess the same would go for robbing a bank.

Sting-operations are illegal in Norway, or at least by private persons. There was a bankbox robbery that the robbers got free from, since a private security guard that was "in" on it cooperated with the police and they did not stop it (used him as a agent). So they could sue in that case (althought I do not know the television program you are talking about, so take this with a pinch of salt) and would not get a penalty for the crime. If however, the crime was something that they got caught in the act of doing, and were videotaped by a news agency, I doubt their identity would be protected. But it varies from case to case, sometimes the media does not get to know (informants for example) or the case is so low-level media attention that there really is no point.
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Unread 14 Sep 2006, 14:15   #3
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

I'd guess the peeps who have their faces blanked out are people who did not commit any crime or were not charged with committing a crime.

They have a right not to be identified even if they are associated with criminals.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:43   #4
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
whether it's old age, whether he's taken a tabloid sociology course, or whether he's taking it easy now that he's an "established" tv personality
I think there's a pretty high chance that the reason is that it's pointless attempting to go undercover into a criminal organisation when you've had a national television show about you going undercover into criminal organisations. It was fairly predictable at the time of the first series of his that he would either drop out of the limelight gracefully or go on to lesser and lesser exposes.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 17:48   #5
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think there's a pretty high chance that the reason is that it's pointless attempting to go undercover into a criminal organisation when you've had a national television show about you going undercover into criminal organisations. It was fairly predictable at the time of the first series of his that he would either drop out of the limelight gracefully or go on to lesser and lesser exposes.
I'm not sure he is involved in any of the cases for just that reason. I think he's just more of a presenter who pops up at the end of the sting like Jeremy Beadle.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 19:19   #6
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
re-reading what i wrote it does imply that he's actually going undercover, but as asg has said, he's now simply an anchor.
I know he isn't. However, I do think it fairly obvious that he's not going to have anyone on his show doing exciting undercover things. It's what he made his name for, so he's not going to have someone usurping him that directly.
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 23:10   #7
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

there are no laws governing using someones face on television.

the blurred faces are not blurred because anyone asked for consent.

the laws that govern this are contempt of court and defamation
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 12:00   #8
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it might be obvious but it's not exactly a good reason is it. (at least not for the viewer)
It might not be a good reason, but it is the reason. If you don't like it, just don't watch it, there's far more that can be ever be watched or read out there to watch and read, and a lot of it is of very high quality.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 14:24   #9
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
out of interest what have you been watching/reading recently that is of very high quality? (genuine question i'm not being an arse).
Father Ted, Don Quixote, Knights of the Old Republic 2!
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 19:49   #10
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what about branding and logos etc?
what about them?
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 14:07   #11
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
didn't improve much on the first
It improved enormously on the first, unless you think all the possible responses to, say, a beggar coming up to you on the street asking for a coin are "Here, take a million!" or "No, now I shall kill you while eating a kitten!". The party interactions were superior, the characterisation was better and it wasn't just another instance of the standard Bioware "You turn out to be some sort of super thing with a troubled past".
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 16:15   #12
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
essentially it was superficial embellishment of the same underlying principal of "good choice", "bad choice", or ignore.
Oh please, the Kreia character alone demonstrates a much more intelligent attitude to the differences between good and evil, and the lack of these kind of direct choices is emphasised throughout the game. Unsurpsiring, really, as KOTOR2 was designed by the same guy as Planescape: Torment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what is possible is obviously far more than a dead set linear game with ad-hoc nods to the archetype rgp elements such as "you can buy new equipment", because it's been done before, years ago in morrowind.
I think you're missing the point dramatically here. It's not a (mostly) linear RPG because of technological limitations, it's a linear RPG because that's a significantly better format for storytelling. If you could choose to ignore the main plot entirely in KOTOR2 as you could in Morrowind, you'd end up with the same problems as Morrowind - a fairly lifeless world in which there is no real pressing story element. That is not the game that Avellone wanted to make.

Also, choosing Morrowind as your demonstration shows you're not really up to speed at all - technological limitations haven't really been part of RPGs since the computer RPG was first really made. Or didn't you notice that Morrowind was the third in its series?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the items of equipment worth buying in kotor2 (and indeed kotor1) could be counted on one hand.
Why does that matter in the slightly? They're both using the RPG as a storytelling vehicle, not a hack & slash item collector in the style of Diablo. And even given that, there were plenty of very good items to buy in KOTOR1 and KOTOR2; to name just the more-than-a-handful of examples you wanted, The Heavy Exoskeleton. The Heart of the Guardian. The Mantle of the Force. A Bargawin Assault Blade. A Bargawin Stealth Unit. The Dominator Gauntlets. Wait, those are just from KOTOR1, with more to be named!

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it's basically like watching a third rate star wars film with less choices available to your viewing than you could probably hope for from a multi-shot blu-ray disc.
I consider KOTOR2, with Planescape: Torment, the only two recent notable computer RPGs in which you can choose your characterisation beforehand, and have a decent chance of not being terminally restricted by the dialogue, or gameplay, options presented to you. The interactions with your party members (and the influence system, most notably) gives much more possible interaction than in KOTOR1. It gives much more possible interaction than almost every RPG I can think of, again with the possible exception of Planescape: Torment.

Increasingly your complaints seem just to be that you didn't really do anything in the game, and expected it all to be handed to you without any effort

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
not that i didn't like it, it was fun, just that it felt like they used the ideas/sets they didn't think good enough for the original.
Which is fairly remarkable, as nooone who worked on KOTOR1 was on staff for KOTOR2. Completely different companies (Bioware and Obsidian respectively). What exactly would you consider to be covered by that statement? Whilst Korriban and Dantooine both appear in both games, they are representative of the core point of the thing - that the fallout from Revan's actions cannot be predicted, and nor can the actions of any Jedi, removing the pure light/dark dichotomy which is present pretty much universally in the rest of Star Wars, and was a change that was needed from the rather immature attitude towards good and evil in KOTOR1, as well as the rest of the canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i think you mean you had a choice to ignore it unlike in the first game. which was for the best, unless you were able to suspend your disbelief to the point of imaginary friends
A "choice to ignore it"? Could you actually clarify what "it" was, as you quoted three things then only referred to one. If you're talking about the comment about the Standard Bioware Plot, then no, it's not a standard Bioware plot. Play Baldur's Gate or another of their earlier games then come back to see how they just use the same plot over and over and over again. Then play KOTOR2, and see how it's not the same. I don't really see the need to argue why something isn't like something else when it doesn't have any significant similarities beyond the superficial - that is, they're both about Jedi. In the Old Republic.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 17:35   #13
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the kind of "intelligent" attitude towards the adopted moral paradigm for the game is of little worth because it's superficial. you can't actually become evil and join the sith, your eyes just glow red and someone else dies at the end.
That's approaching a reasonable critique of KOTOR1, less so for KOTOR2, as the story of KOTOR2 was about the inevitability of various things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
as long as it's a genuine dynamic and not just a plot device.
"Plot device" isn't the criticism you seem to think it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
surely there's the possibility for a middleground?
Something like KOTOR or Baldur's Gate is the middle ground. Compare it to a JRPG (eg: any given Final Fantasy game) where you can't decide anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm also not sure why a non linear game needs to be lifeless. surely you just need to code more storyline?
To make a non-linear game, you don't just need to "code more storyline" (ignoring that the assertion you made there is fairly surreal at best). You need to design and code and get voice actors for the actions and reactions and whims and goals of most of the individuals in the game, if you want it to appear like a living reality. You need people to interact, to change, and if you're going to do this as well as having the player being able to affect events you also need to have a large set of possibilities of player reactions if you don't want it to appear flat. Oblivion, which was pretty much nothing but an attempt to do the above, fell very very flat in terms of creating a living world. To succeed, even in purely writing terms (dialogue and events don't just coalesce out of the air you know) would be the longest and most difficult undertaking in the history of video games.

To put it in context, what you said was like saying "I can walk to Tesco's, so why can't we put men on Mars?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it matters, because as i said it gives the impression of a more tactical element, more possibilities etc, when it isn't.
Can you please describe, without looking it up, the difference between the Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves in the KOTOR game system, and how they can be used and improved in the game? If you cannot (which seems likely, as you say momentarily that you can remember barely anything about the game) it seems rather odd of you to criticise the tactical elements of something when you don't understand the tactical elements in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it's ad-hoc, it's superficial and it's a disappointment. you've named a few but that really isn't enough for me, sorry.
If you just want lots and lots of different items (and there are lots and lots of different items in the game, I named only the most endgame of endgame gear there for KOTOR1) don't play a ****ing storyline driven RPG and complain about how it's storyline driven rather than just pure loot collection. Go play Divine Divinity or Diablo II.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
(also, how can you remember the names? i can barely remember if my character was black or not)
"Memory". I can also talk to you about Crom Fayr or Hindo's Doom or The Robes of Vecna from BG2 if you really want to. Or the Doomcaller's Circlet, Ring of Unspoken Names and Kezan's Unstoppable Taint from WoW (now there's an item driven game).

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not sure what else there was i could have done... it was pretty much like walking down a path with options as to what boots i used.
It is now absolutely rock solid clear (mixing metaphors is fun) that you didn't even scratch the surface of the games, and are complaining that they don't have any depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the settings/semi-set pieces didn't seem as original as the first one
Obviously this is an argument of opinion, but KOTOR1 was a fairly straight up standard look at us it's bioware RPG. There was very little in there which I hadn't already seen, at least in some sense, in the Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights games. KOTOR1 was very much "go to place x to find item y, but while there you have to complete a set of arbitrary tasks so that the person who controls the access to y will give you access to it. Occasionally minions of the main villain will turn up, depending on which order you're doing the planets in." You actually did something other than run about with your character in KOTOR2. You actually started out as a jedi, rather than just doing the same old "Well, we don't usually teach non-jedi of your age how to use the force, but wow you're good at it look at the training just fly past" chestnut as most of the Star Wars games seem to like to have. Things happened outside your immediate viewpoint other than just "Update on villain #3"

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
but thank-you for informing me they just had inferior artistic vision
Did you miss all the "It's just the same as every other bioware game" things I said? It might have been an original artistic vision the first time they used it, but just taking BG1 and sticking it in the Star Wars universe is hardly an original artistic vision. At least KOTOR2 expanded the scope of the piece rather than just bumbling along in autopilot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
to the primeordial group
Here's a little hint: when trying to use an unnecessarily pretentious word (in this case, primordial just is equivilent to "original") do try to spell it correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the party interaction and character development.
iirc you could skip through it, instead of having to listen to so and so drivel on about their history a la KOTOR1
Again, I'm thinking that perhaps a story driven party based RPG isn't the game for you, as you appear to not like the story or party or RPG elements. Driven and based seem ok though.

[edit]

I forgot to mention the improved upgrade system in KOTOR2, which is probably the most comprehensive thing of it's type that I've seen in an RPG.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 15:45   #14
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i was suggesting that parts of the game (such as the good evil dichotomy) are superficial crutches for the plot. which is a let down.
Yes, I realise you were trying to say that. Unfortunately, that's not what a plot device is. Also you're wrong, as the central plot (in KOTOR1 at least) is utterly independent of your alignment, so it can hardly be a superficial crutch for the plot. In KOTOR2, the entire plot is about the good/evil dichotomy, but then you say you can't remember the plot at all so you're hardly the best person to be arguing about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the middleground of current games maybe. hardly an objective marker of a good mix.
If you're talking about objectively, then the "freedom" end of the scale is basically just a representation of every day life. You can do anything you choose within the limits of your character, and interact with the world in any way you please.

No game even begins to come close to this, so we have to go by how things are today or everything will just be smudged together in "Restrictive".

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i found the oblivion world to be far more interesting, or "living". people had routines etc for a start. give me AI over voice acting any day thanks.
It's not an either/or, and whilst Oblivion presented the appearance of a living world for about ten minutes in every town, it fell apart fairly swiftly after that. People changing voice actors and speech idioms half way through conversations are excellent ways to remove immersion. Unkillable and telepathic guards are other good ones. The fact that nothing ever changed - the only prerequisite for a living world is not that people sleep at night and get up during the day, and that's not even scratching the surface of the problems with the Radiant AI, like the way that people sometimes refuse to speak to you about a topic if you're asking them at the wrong time of day.

And even that paragraph is ignoring that you clearly have either some sort of mental deficiency or are just going out of your way to be obtuse, because I specifically stated that "To succeed, even in purely writing terms (dialogue and events don't just coalesce out of the air you know) would be the longest and most difficult undertaking in the history of video games." Explain to me how your argument "AI over voice acting plz lol" does more than tangentially relate to my line of argument, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what? because i don't fully understand the algorhythms involved with dice roll play i'm unjust in criticising an element of the game which in part at least can be described as utterly detached from it?
If you do not understand how the tactical subtleties of the game work, then no. You are not allowed to criticise it for lacking tactical depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
no that's not all i want, sorry if i suggested that was the case. i just happen to like a reason for collecting cash in the game. it also feels like an extra dynamic in my tactical arsenal. y'know... do i use the big heavy sword or save up for some laser revolvers
But.... there are things like that in both KOTOR and KOTOR2? The items I listed above are things to save up for, and they are very expensive. KOTOR2's improved customisation system has you make this kind of choice all the time (That's the thing you don't remember, by the way).

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
were there secret levels or something?
You're saying it like it's some linear level from Super Mario Brothers where all you can do is go from left to right. It's not. You have the freedom to go talk to people, pick up side quests, go do optional stuff. You can choose to do the Genoharadan assassin's guild quests or not. You can choose to go and resolve the problems between Bastila and her mother. You can go and find Carth's son. You can rescue Mission's brother. You can return the stowaway aboard your ship to her family, or send her out alone into the cold. There are multiple murder cases for you to investigate, you can resolve feuds between families one way or another. You can stop Mandalorian raiders from attacking civilians, you can reveal plots and intruige. You can expose traitors and find murderers, and all of the above is completely optional when doing the main quest. And there's a lot more that I couldn't be bothered to mention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
not having played any of the games you just mentioned, i hugely enjoyed KOTOR1, i was assuming KOTOR2 was going to be similarly impressive. it wasn't.
No, it was much better. Go play Baldur's Gate 2, though. It's excellent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek.
Yes, very good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
just the restrictive story. but i think you're right, i'll stick to other games from now on.
I think the way you called the party interactions "drivel" and mentioned in supportive tones that you could skip through it implies to me that you didn't like the party or RPG elements either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
can't remember it, sorry.
Can't remember it, and almost certainly never used it. What exactly do you mean by "tactical element" anyway? You can develop your character in many different ways, you can develop your party likewise. You can customise the equipment you use to a fairly fine degree, and there are choices over which area gets the priority of your limited resources - and this applies to both games, and much more to the second one.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 19:00   #15
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

I had a long, detailed reply to you which just retreaded the same areas, pointing out how you were an imbecile and how you apparantly didn't even bother to read what I said, but then I got down to replying to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
(i haven't had much play testing with it, i down't own the game)
And I lost the will to continue. You're one of the most imbecilic people on this great internet. Good day sir.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 14:10   #16
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yeah your intellect is lost on me.
One of the points I made was that Oblivion, which you're holding up as some kind of god of the genre, is only very superficially "living". I own the game and have played it. A lot. You have not. You have continually ignored what I actually say, especially on the topic of freeform RPGs, and make up some nonsense of your own to argue against. Your continued assertions about how you can't comment on something, for example, because you don't know how AIs are coded, despite me not talking about the coding of AI. I assumed you understood what "writing dialogue" entailed, I evidently was wrong. The levels of comprehension and memory you have shown in this thread have been so absolutely abysmal that I'd be ashamed if they were shown by a five year old.

This isn't some "look at me, I'm clever and you're not lol" thing. This is actual amazement at your continual belief that an argument based upon a few minutes with a game I stated was superficially fine but had underlying problems, and playing games you clearly remember nothing about and knew little more about at the time, is anything beyond imbecilic.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 21 Sep 2006 at 14:15.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 16:05   #17
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yes but i have played it. i then explained how i found the experience more "immersive" than the more story driven cinematic experience in KOTOR2.
And I never said you didn't. This is another fine example of you imagining what I have said.

Let us track precisely what line of discussion lead us to this point:

I said that the decision to create KOTOR2 as a story driven RPG was deliberate, and it would have been distracting from its central premise to provide too much distraction away from the plot.
You said that they should have coded "more storyline".
I said that to create a proper, living, world that wouldn't have immersion breaking problems would be a horrificly enormous undertaking, even only considering the amount of dialogue and story people would have to write.
You said that you preferred AI to voice acting, which I found a bit of a non sequitur and said so. You also asked why there couldn't be a middleground.
I said that even Oblivion's Radiant AI frequently produces situations where my immersion was broken, that it's not an either/or as far as AI and voice acting are concerned, and asked you to actually reply to what I was talking about.
You complained that I referred to you as some sort of buffoon for not expanding on your comments on the Radiant AI, immediately after talking some more about the divergence thereby proving you had no right to complain. You also said you didn't like games with more restrictive storylines.
Had I actually posted what I had written at this point, it would state that maybe you shouldn't play story driven RPGs if you don't like them. We then come to your complaint here.

Now:

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
saying you don't find it as immersive/"living"
As is by far the most significant word here. I never said that Oblivion was less immersive than KOTOR2. I said it wasn't immersive. In terms of ideal immersivity, it's probably the best of a bad bunch in RPG terms. It loses out fairly heavily to something like Thief or Half Life, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
and that because you think this that i should too, sounds like the way a petulant 5 year old views the world and others' views.
As we have now established, I never said you should. Indeed, I never said that I did, which adds some more weight to my assertion that you have missed the point somewhat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'd prefer such AI along with a more freeform game, even at the expense of richer dialogue.
Which is fair enough. I'd enjoy it a lot if someone with the writing or design ability of Chris Avellone got involved in a freeform RPG; there are a lot of design decisions in Oblivion (such as everything needing a direct parallel to earth history - leading to Cyrodiil being fairly boring, to my mind at least, middle ages europe style things instead of being jungle, or as outlandish as Morrowind which I enjoyed a great deal - or the fact that noone who gives you a quest can betray you. Ever. It rather removes some of the excitement of the thing if you know whenever you come back to the quest giver it'll be all fine and dandy and you get your reward and go. Again, one of the things I like about BG2 - you quite often do not know the motives of the people who ask you to do things) which I feel drag the game down somewhat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it feels like i'm comprehending everything fine though
From the way you reply, you fail to comprehend I say, fail to express what you mean correctly or are actively ignoring my posts. Your continued obession with the coding of AI, for example, when I have repeatedly tried to drag you away from it shows that you either don't understand the rather simple statements I am making on the topic or are choosing to ignore them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
maybe you're just a bit of a dick?
Yes, obviously you're much better suited to make a comparison between a game you don't remember and a game you haven't significantly played. All I've done is remember the games and play them recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
that sentence doesn't make sense
For the couple of minutes or so it took for me to notice. It was fixed a good half hour before you posted, however, so forgive me for not noticing it sooner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the underlying whinging has really fired me up for the gym!
Well, at least one of us is getting something out of this.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 14:53   #18
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
you said "I own the game and have played it. A lot. You have not.". so i replied saying that i had however played it enough to foster such an opinion as the one i went on to explain...
Everyone I know who played the game went through the "Holy hell, this is immersive and impressive" stage before coming to the "This is extremely limited, and needs a lot of work" stage. It was possible to estimate how much someone had played the game based upon their dissatisfaction with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what i meant was that i'd rather sacrafice the cinematic experience of voice acting and so on in the hope of creating a less linear game with more choice and freedom.
And, as I said, it's not an either/or situation. Or rather, if it is an either/or the realities of video game publishing will make voice acting always the winner. There isn't a publisher in the industry who'd punt money to a niche, "ugly" game - certainly not the amount that would be required to make such a thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i was then suggesting that oblivion's radient AI (despite it's faults) would be a starting point on which to build.
Anything's a starting point. You're still utterly ignoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i just don't know what you want me to expand on...
How many times do I have to specifically tell you that I don't for you to actually grasp that I don't? You keep on bringing up the Radiant AI, and I keep on trying to drag the conversation away from the Radiant AI. If I want you to expand anything it's the field of topics which you construct your replies from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'd rather they used radient AI in a similar way to oblivion as opposed to a restrictive, linear single storyline.
A couple of points on this one:

1. The Radiant AI is a creation of Bethesda, and so far has only been used in Oblivion. It's not a class of AI, like what you said implies.

2. Even if it was a class of AI, this makes very little sense in any case. There aren't a finite number of uses of Radiant-like AI, and the use of such a thing in a linear game wouldn't diminish its direct effect in a non-linear one (although I freely admit that things raise the bar in terms of the RPG genre as a whole becoming more ubiquitous would make the freeform RPG less impressive in relative terms).

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what more can i say other than suggest exactly how this would be implemented (i.e. i have no idea, i'm not a games designer, all i know is that it has been done before and so i feel justified in asking for it again)
Please expand on this, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok. but that still means you find it less immersive doesn't it?
From the information I have, the answer is either yes or no. You haven't clarified what "it" is, so I can't say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not sure why you needed to say you find obvlivion completely devoid of immersion.
"In terms of ideal immersivity, it's probably the best of a bad bunch in RPG terms."

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
as i already said; "i rate my "immersion" in a game in a slightly less dream like sense.
Yes, you did. And I still have no idea what you're trying to say here. The way I rate immersion isn't dream like, at least to my mind,

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
if i wanted a linear (but cinematically true) experience, i'd watch a film.
What about an "experience" where a set series of events happen, but you react to them in different ways? Furthermore, this also rejects the idea of a video game as a storytelling mechanism, to which I would put forward Half Life 2 as an example of why I disagree with this assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
in a game i value immersion in the sense that i am interacting with the game.
I'm still not sure that you're using immersion in the conventional way. Can you expand upon what you mean by "immersion"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
for instance i prefer interacting with AI (despite how primitive it is*) and exploring/"living" in the game as opposed to watching cut scenes."
And you would get no argument here. However, can you clarify how this applies to the current argument of Oblivion vs KOTOR, as neither is particularly heavy on the ground, cut-scene wise.
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Unread 26 Sep 2006, 16:01   #19
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i don't doubt it's limited, but then i don't doubt it's also a lot less limited than KOTOR2 (which i know it is because like i say i've played it and indeed prefer it)
KOTOR2, on the other hand, isn't supposed to be a free form RPG. It's going to be comparatively restrictive, just as in Half Life 2 you can't join Dr Breen or how you can't hire prostitutes with your profits in Rollercoaster Tycoon 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
sure, but when i suggested using radient AI i was suggesting it as an alternative to coding huge amounts of extra dialogue/voice acting. not that you couldn't do both. (just that it may not be economically viable, as you seem to be suggesting)
I don't know what to make of this. At all. It's on a level of "If you put the wrong numbers into the machine, will the right numbers come out?"

So, my first act of replying is to (slightly mis-) quote Samuel Babbage's response to the above: "I cannot understand the confusion of ideas which would lead to such a statement". You don't code dialogue, you don't code voice acting. AI does not allow you to ignore the writing of dialogue, unless you want to live in a world where noone ever talked ever at all, which frankly would undo all the work any attempt at immersivity would otherwise produce.

Your question is basically equivilent to asking "Why do they have people write the books, why don't they just print them?" The AI interactivity is the output of an enormous amount of work; to have a limitless AI is impossible at the current level of technology, and that's assuming it will become possible in the future. The vast majority of things within Radiant are directly coded and decided upon by people working on the game - certainly I've never found any examples from within the game similar to what they regailed us with beforehand, and some of the things they talked about I saw the exact opposite occur. For example, killing someone using a poison apple; they said that, when you stole all of someone's food, they'd go and try to steal to get more food. I stole all of someone's food, replacing it with only one apple. Did they eat? No. I then took the apple away. Did they go and steal something? No.

The Radiant AI is not just a case of letting it go on a group of characters and getting interactivity out. It's based around a highly specific set of instructions for each individual character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok... when i made a comment earlier that i would rather AI over voice acting.
you asked me to expand on it. i did.
I asked you to explain how it was relevent, which you have still failed to do. Talking of which, there are several questions in my post which you have failed to answer. Could you do that please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not sure what this has to do with me suggesting that a similar kind of AI should be used to create a more "living" world. but ok.
Because you didn't say similar. You just said Radiant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i don't understand what you're saying here. what do you mean when you say the use of radient AI in a linear game wouldn't diminish it's direct effect in a non linear one?
If you have a pizza, the fact that someone over the other side of the world has a nicer pizza doesn't really diminish your absolute enjoyment of what you've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
oblivion
Then the answer is "no".

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
sure. the problem is the ways you can react to them are so limited. i.e. as opposed to the ideal, infinate number of ways to react, there are about 3. it seems like you sacrifice a lot of cinematic value (relative to say a film) in exchange for a pitiful scrap of interaction
I disagree. I enjoy that kind of RPG, or indeed game, and in any case I found KOTOR1 and KOTOR2 to be more "cinematic", or at least better, than any of the Star Wars films on which they are based.

[quote=horn]the high pedigree of half life 2 isn't just because of it's (relatively) good storytelling, it's because it's a good shooter.[/quote

Whilst it is safe to say that the production values of Half Life 2 are such that it would be universally better than, say, Quake IV even if you didn't factor in the storytelling, I would still consider it head, shoulders, feet and a few yards of air above every other game in terms of storytelling. Video games are still in their infancy; when people look back upon this period, as people look back upon cinema, Half Life 2 will be the equivilent of Citizen Kane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
if instead of playing the game you watched it, it would (i assume) be somewhat less enjoyable.
That's not really a counterargument, as the way Half Life 2 is set up is based upon the immersion of the player. Although, when I was playing through Half Life 2 for the first time, Giles's brother (who was over, and came to watch) was utterly fascinated, especially with the bit where you travel through the citadel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i.e. being fascinated by the game. feeling like you're playing a role that isn't pre-determined. interacting with the AI and so on...
I find that something of an abstract description of immersivity; I think I get where you're coming from with the "dream" comparison now, because I must say that generally I find immersivity to be a very subconscious thing.

Do you ever find games frightening?
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Unread 26 Sep 2006, 16:41   #20
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

"Immersivity" as a term is very difficult to quantify though, as I'm sure you both already realise. Seeing as it's based by definition on the perception of the person involved, and adding in the fact (as demonstrated by this thread) that people find very different things immersive. The things I find most immersive would be quite different from the ones Mark or horn do.

I imagine Mark is alluding to the fact that at the end of his last post that if you find something frightening then you must be frightened of something. If you are frightened of something then at some level your mind must believe that it's actually happening (not consciously, obviously), and if this were so then clearly there would be a certain level of immersion. Only very few games have actually made me frightened though, and all of those were first person. I believe Thief has already been mentioned this thread, that's the last one that did iirc.

I think horn has a point as well though, I'm not sure about the specifics of his argument, but what he seems to be driving at is that if the AI is more realistic then this makes a bigger difference with regards to immersivity than other factors (graphics, storytelling). I agree with this up to a point, it's how I normally act as well, and I would be certainly be in the stuck up "graphics can be shit as long as the game is great" crowd. A good AI can improve a game to a far greater degree than a great story.

However, how "good" an AI is isn't necessarily based on how complicated it is, or how much of a challenge it gives you - but more on how realistic it makes the game and in what ways (good and bad) it affects the game mechanics.

Disclaimer: I haven't played either game in this thread and don't really care about them but I thought the general debate was interesting.

Oh, and Mark, what's the best RTS currently out on the PC? Is the new game you were telling me was going to be released soon released yet? The Brian Reynolds one iirc.
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Unread 26 Sep 2006, 17:15   #21
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Oh, and Mark, what's the best RTS currently out on the PC? Is the new game you were telling me was going to be released soon released yet? The Brian Reynolds one iirc.
Rise of Legends? It's out, it's pretty decent. The next "big" one isn't for a while though, which will be Supreme Commander.
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Unread 26 Sep 2006, 17:35   #22
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Rise of Legends? It's out, it's pretty decent. The next "big" one isn't for a while though, which will be Supreme Commander.
That's the one, strangely enough I almost bought it last week, hey ho.

Is it in your opinion the "best" RTS around atm? For the purposes of playing online anyway (perhaps SC is better etc and plenty of people play it, assume I'm only talking about games where I will be able to play for a few weeks/months and be at a reasonable level compared to other online players).
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Unread 26 Sep 2006, 17:47   #23
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

I don't really play games online against random people very much, so I'm afraid I couldn't tell you.
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Unread 27 Sep 2006, 09:52   #24
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Don't forget Company of Heros and DEFCON both out this week. DECON is only £10 on Steam at the moment so it looks well worth a go if it's as good as everyone is making out.
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Unread 27 Sep 2006, 10:03   #25
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Football Manager 06/07 is out soon, £30 well spent as you save thousands in not leaving the house.
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Unread 27 Sep 2006, 10:13   #26
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Oh yeah, I forgot Company of Heroes. That's supposed to be very good.
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 16:08   #27
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
just because it isn't supposed to be something doesn't really make it a better game. in the same way doom3 isn't a good game despite it achieving what it wanted i.e. a no brainer gore fest. it might not mean to be a free-form rpg, but i'd still prefer it if it were.
I don't think Doom 3 did achieve what it wanted; it didn't seem to be striving for a no-brainer gore fest from what I saw, and even then I can criticise it for a fairly hefty number of things, such as at some points my complete lack of any idea of what I was supposed to be doing, something that I, to the best of my recollection, never encountered in, say, Half Life.

That being said, this is just a reiteration of a previous point: if you don't like this kind of game, then don't play it. I don't like the Final Fantasy games, for example. So I don't play them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yes i know this, i was assuming we had taken that as a given. i'm suggesting that instead of concentrating on elaborate dialogue and varied voice acting for a relatively small number of characters, they code dialogue for a larger amount with less depth, and quite possibly no voice acting (a la morrowind). obviously this wouldn't be ideal for a "cinematic", "immersive" story, but then i wouldn't really care, as i've already explained why.
You've changed tack quite dramatically from "just code more storyline", and as you now say that you are "assuming something as a given" which directly counteracts something you've said earlier, I am really fairly confused as to what to reply to.

Recreating Morrowind is, I consider, a fairly flawed idea. With the open ended-games, there are always significant areas where things fall short; even if you want to create an open ended game, surely it's better to go for the limit of what your time and the available technology will grant you, rather than doing a Bethesda-style, fairly half-arsed, job? You say you don't want a sandbox game, but you don't like story driven games either; whilst there is room for a middle-ground between them, if you want the game to be in any way forgiving, and not like real life where, in the middle of some cataclysmic event, you live and die byhings beyond your control, then you lose both the freedom of the sandbox and the intensity of the story. You say you don't mind this; I cannot argue with opinion, but I can state my own: you're aiming for something that I consider the worst part of The Elder Scrolls games, something that has been tried and found wanting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
which ones?
Lets start off with the ones you didn't quote in your previous post. If you're actually bothering to construct a cogent argument, then this shouldn't be much of a trip out of your way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
:salute:
If you don't say what you mean, does that mean I'm supposed to fill in the gaps to make it a coherent argument?

No, it doesn't work like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i understand the analogy but not it's relation to what you said.
Things aren't measured in isolation. Doom was a staggeringly realistic game once. However, improvements continue apace and so Doom isn't regarded as so impressive any more.

Similarly, something like Oblivion only really "works", on some level at least, because of its approximation of a living world. If every game had this, then Oblivion would feel less special, and so its other flaws would become more apparant.

However, if you do not play the other (imaginary) games that feature said, well, features then your experience would not be diminished in the imaginary Oblivion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm confused, if you say oblivion isn't immersive. assuming you're saying KOTOR2 is
And here we find the flaw in the argument. Some may say it's a vindication of the "not randomly fill in what the other guy is thinking" position I advocated earlier in this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
so i should accept it's shitness because it's a means to an ends that i might like?
This came out of comparatively nowhere. No, you shouldn't accept its shitness. Because it's shitness is negligable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
Giles's brother was at first actually fascinated by your enormous head.
We appear to have wandererered into an episode of Invader Zim. And Tim's head is physically enormous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
when he came too after you had beaten him for asking to have a go he was fascinated not by the storyline, but by the graphics. which again are not going to compare to a film.
No, I'm pretty sure it's the story he was interested in. Given the subsequent (and indeed previous (and indeed co-temporal)) conversations about said story.

Of course, you wouldn't know that. Given that you weren't there and have never met the man. Which leads me to wonder why you decided to embark down this little side-alley at all; perhaps you thought that you had posted enough real life things that invalidate your arguments, so you had to even the score and make some about me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yeah i'm a pretty deep guy.
Well, I wouldn't have used the term "deep".

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i guess that would depend on what you meant by the term "frightening"
Something which you find frightening. In a non-"monster cupboard" non-shock fashion.
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 16:09   #28
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i agree. obviously it's a challenging feat for developers to pull off, but i think the oblivion chaps did a good enough job to make an "immersive" game, at least for me; i found it muchos fun.
How long did you play it for, anyway?
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 11:13   #29
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok, well i only played it for about 15 minutes. it seemed pretty straight forward to me, the reason i'm saying that's what they were aiming for was because several reviews i read (pcgamer/pczone) said that's what they were aiming for. (i can't be sure but i think they had interviewed the developers previously)
The general vibe is that they were going for a fairly traditional cinematic, story led FPS; no real gameplay innovations, but when they brought in Matthew Castello, a science fiction writer who had previously worked on things like 7th Guest, you've got a pretty good sign that it wasn't supposed to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yeah i'm fairly certain whatever example i use you're just going to claim that "actually they didn't achieve what they set out to do, because one crate was the wrong colour" or something. do you accept that there is a game that has achieved say it's main goal (whether it be to create an action packed shooter, or a solid storyline) but has failed to produce an overall good game?
There are innumerate ones. The Sims. The Command and Conquer series. Rome: Total War. The Splinter Cell games. FEAR.

I would name more, but I'm just going by ones that I own, and the boxes for are on my games shelves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
what?
i'm faily certain i've been saying this for the entire thread.
Before making that post, I reread the thread. You were not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
when i said i'd prefer (essentially) more possibilities, i.e. writing more dialogue you said it would be too hard/time consuming. i then said something along the lines of "ok fair point, how about they use radient AI"
Do you still not understand that the Radiant AI is the last in a great chain of making these worlds? Even with something which will give NPCs the ability to react in certain unscripted ways towards outside stimulus (usually from the player, but not always - I am told they had to limit what Radiant would make things do in Oblivion, because NPCs were triggering other NPCs and start giant wars and the like) there still has to be all the groundwork in place. Radiant, in Oblivion, is not a replacement for writing, it is a supplement to it. It's like one of the many pizza toppings which go into making the game; something like Radiant is only one of the lesser ones, like ham. Actually designing NPCs, writing them dialogue, placing them in the world and giving them routines? That's the cheese, the tomato sauce and most of the base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok well like what? i imagine the significance you place on these areas is more than on the restrictive nature of the game, which i suspect i diasagree with.
The degree to which the world actually "lives" and your ability to interact with it. The ability to write a plot which is actually engaging ("Something may KILL US ALL ANCIENT EVIL!, but feel free to bugger off and do other things, I'll hold the fort here and nothing'll ever happen.") whilst not breaking itself in half due to any contradictions. The large number of limitations the developers have in place (especially in Oblivion) to make sure that you don't break the game, whilst simultaneously giving you the freedom in many spots to break the game because they didn't consider a certain way of doing things (there are quite a few bugs in the game, although many of them have been patched out, where if actually read the quest text instead of just going to the next spot on the map you will break it, and have to use the console to fix it. An example case being if you get told by third party to give something to someone, and when you return you give the vital object to the someone instead of the third party first. I had to restart one of my games because I had hit too many of these) as valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
so maybe developers should just create first person shooters because that's what our current technology lends itself to best.
The more relevent restriction there was time. Technology is, in some ways, both a help and a hindrance; it lets you do more advanced things, but the amount of time you have to spend over them is enormous. In any case, you don't have to use the technology available to you; something like BG2 wasn't exactly cutting edge, and neither were Rise of Nations or Grim Fandango (to choose three games from different genres). Doing something which the technology is not available for will result in a noble failure, or at the very least feature creep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
needless to say i disagree with your assertion that morrowind/oblivion were half-arsed jobs.
I refer the honourable gentleman to my above comments on some of the flaws in Oblivion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not following you here... what cataclysmic event?
Something like the rise of Dagoth Ur (Morrowind) or the opening of the gates to Oblivion (Oblivion)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
and i'll sate mine... i think they were excellent games and while they certainly had flaws they
You didn't finish this. I'll check for an edit after I finish posting this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i really can't remember though. were there any particular points/questions i missed that haven't since been answered?
Ironically enough, I don't have time for that now as I have to pop into college. I'll post the few that there are later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it was perfectly coherent. the fact i didn't say "or something like it" when refering to a kind of AI used in another game doesn't make it jibberish.
It doesn't make it gibberish, it makes it wrong. If you don't like having wrong things corrected you shouldn't say things that are wrong in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it just makes it a bit more of a chore having to talk to you.
It is an courtesy, or indeed a requirement, when trying to construct a cogent argument that you inform the other party what your argument actually is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'll reply when i next get back to the gym in a few days. already missing u xxx <3
so long lover
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 17:20   #30
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Ironically enough, I don't have time for that now as I have to pop into college. I'll post the few that there are later.

I find that hard to believe after spending a good 5 minutes reading the rest of your comments
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 16:42   #31
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
from my memory (i'm not re-reading the whole thread right now, sorry)
i suggested there be more freedom. you said this would involve too much coding/ storyline.
so i suggested they use radient ai (OR SOMETHING LIKE IT) too take some of that burden off, i.e. it would still feel like a living world even if they didn't have an integral part in the main story etc.
Even in Oblivion, Radiant is still only used once everything else is in place. You're not "taking any load off" creating the game world, you're just making the way in which it interacts with unscripted events more dynamic. I have said this repeatedly, including in the post you quoted, and you have ignored it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not sure what part you're saying isn't doable now
I have not changed position on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
oh ok, excellent. so when you said it would be near impossible for the makers of KOTOR2 to code more storyline, you were wrong?
I went back and reread the post yoiu replied to, to see if this was a sensible reply and I had just missed something; alas, it is not. I will still reply to it, probably out of some misplaced sense of pity.

"No, I was not wrong, and it is impossible, because you don't code storyline. In a more practical sense, no, I was not wrong, because the amount of time which they spent making the game was so severely limited that there can be no argument over the amount of material which was removed due to the lack of said time. In terms of this argument, no, I was not worng, because I never said that."

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'd stomach these issues in return for a free form game. i can't say i found the KOTOR2 plot any more engaging than what i played of the oblivion one either tbh, not that i'd particularly care even if it did (as i said before, if i wanted plot and so on i'd watch a film)

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'd also point out that bugs and such aren't a necessary part of the game, just more likely. (as you say, they can also be patched)
They're not necessary, but they are fairly ironic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
good point, the thing is oblivion was neither a commercial or critical failure. to my mind they did a good job despite the technological and time restrictions.
They succeeded as well as they could have given the amount of time spent, although there weren't really any time restrictions on them; they self published.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not sure why all free-form games would need to have a cataclysmic event.
They don't, but ones which want to have something happen beyond the player character just pottering along (which, by and large, they all do; even in Oblivion, many people just play through the main quest and leave it at that) tend to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm also not sure why having one would need to preclude your freedom and destroy the intensity of the game?
Lets say, as a completely random example, I'm playing a freeform game set in Los Angeles, when all of a sudden I happen across news of a secret terrorist plot to blow up the city with nuclear weapons, and that I (as it is a video game, after all) am the only one who can stop them. If I carry on doing what I please, then I will either die from the nukes (curtailing my freedom somewhat due to being deceased) or I will not. If I do not, then there is no element of threat to the terrorist scheme, and so that element of the game is diminished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yeah because clearly suggesting that radient ai would be cool in another game without the disclaimer of "or something like it", is a misleading fallacy.
If you keep on getting the unimportant things that I can notice wrong, how do I know that you're getting the important things that I can't right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i guess it's because you're the kind of person who would entertain an argument for days on end only to whip out "ahhh but i didn't say that, i said something that just sounded incredibly similar!"
If there is a difference, yes; the statements "I rape cats" and "I do not rape cats" are 80% identical, it doesn't mean that they mean the same. The English language can be a very subtle one if used correctly, something I try to do as often as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
that you refuse to induce anything from what your opponent/sworn enemy is saying.
In this thread, I have treated you the way I would like to be treated. Please any inconsistencies to my approach which you have observed.
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 21:09   #32
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: MacIntyre's Big Sting Criminal Exposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not sure i understand. so you're saying my belief that KOTOR would be a better game with radient AI ("or something like it!"), is unfounded because if it did it would highlight the flaws in a game that previously used it?
No, I did not. It was an aside commenting upon the nature of the uptake of technological advances in videogames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
and some would say this tangent is a vindication of the "don't be such a pedant, it's a waste of time and just bogs everything down" position i was advocating when suggesting you carrying on an argument "probably" (definately) in the knowledge that when i was refering to radient AI i meant "or it's like".
See: my previous post, on the usage of the english language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
but clearly it was gung ho of me to assume you considered KOTOR2 immersive after the discussion we've just been having on it
It clearly was, because I don't find it particularly immersive, in the same way as something like Thief or Half Life 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
it's negligable?
Yes it is. Half Life 2 was made in the way that every videogame should be made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
did you happen to ask him if he thought it was better than star wars too?
The only Star Wars film he thinks is in the slightest bit deccent is the first one, because it's a sort of science fiction fairy tale without any of, what he feels to be, the nonsense elements that invade the subsequent ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm getting slightly annoyed at having to argue semantics and have to re-read every word posted before because you're being purposely difficult.
I am treating you as I would like to be treated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
no.
Aside from suggesting you play the only two properly frightening video games in existance (System Shock 2 and Alien vs Predator, marine style), it definitely seems we view video games in different ways, so this thread is somewhat pointless.
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