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Unread 25 Jul 2008, 19:15   #1
Prover
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G to the De-tox

I hope you enjoy my next attempt to purge this place of its ugliness.

Purpose: To (a) share my spiritual experiences, (b) learn in an open-minded environment, (c) practice my evangelicalism.

This will facilitate a holistic approach to understanding the big picture, though we can't fully understand it during our time. It is a paradox to be thinking in 4D. Yet we can infer within our limits some of what it entails. The more we look at paradoxes the more we come to the ineffable, and vice versa. Modern thought has mostly been dualistic as a result of what was normally 3D-thinking (modern science approves this with innumerable evidence), but now it is expanding outward as we pervade the scope of time (as a continuous spectrum). A most illustrative method is to combine the 3 general aspects we see of life into one. It's supposed to become an image of order and simplicity in your mind...

The following 3 categories include: Art, Science, & Religion - Each of these are important to an extent in our lives (the whole of humanity). My hypothesis is that all these paths in life search for the same thing.

1. There is art: Why?

Nature makes its own art (as science suggests), objectively; we tap into nature to bring out its art, subjectively. Art usually provokes an emotional response by utilizing a shift in the focus between simple and un-simple things by putting them in and out of context. This spawns pattern, symmetry, irony, ambiguity, etc - all the aesthetics. If you think about why a big twist at the end of a movie gives us a shock, it's because of a suspension of belief, or a shift of context. On a larger scale, everything we do and create is a work of art on some level. "Art for art's sake" is partly bullsh*t. The very fact that art feels a need to become more sophisticated and interesting over time is a hint to the underlying concept that art seeks for a purpose. Thus, art contains objective light.

When we look at many self-proclaimed "artistic" people, we find a very spiritual quality that has come to be implied with a figurative heart and soul. This type of person probably knows about the paradox seen at the root of our feelings. They have seen a seemingly love-hate duality, until they finally recognized it as it truly was, as a love versus fear scenario (or love with its back turned). Call it the "logic" of love, or in any manner, but both men and women have been putting up with it since Adam and Eve. To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love.

2. There is science: Why?

"Cogito, ergo sum." All of science is trying to formulate a complete response to this most fundamental proposition on the philosophy of knowledge. We might be able to infer that we exist, but 'why?' is still the lingering question. So rather than only speculating and reacting with our imagination, we mix it up by investigating natural and material substances where our actions and reality take form. Our logic has been reduced to binary distinctions, and to avoid the dualistic quarrel, further to probabilistic relations. Scientists are trying desperately to reduce the paradox of our overextended 4D-vision into worldly knowledge. This brings about a progressive, if not positive, light into science.

People have realized a body of knowledge through interpretation of their experiences. As a result of this understanding, people feel a sense of power that comes with it. This energy, if you will, is what makes us apply our education in the world and in society, as we feel a sense of responsibility for bringing it about. (It also seems related to the influx we notice at the subatomic level). But the important point here is that we seek advancement because it gives us more confidence and assurance in our lives. The ultimate goal is to find out what is really true. We look at the most basic feature we know of the universe, light, and in between try to uncover both its beginning and its destination. Therein lies the answer to universal truth.

3. There is religion: Why?

Religion is more of an intermediary aspect than the more polarized aspects of art and science. It is correlated to many pursuits in both the arts and sciences. And despite its interdisciplinary nature, it has the most simplistic approach to living life. This peace of mind that religious faith brings to an individual is more than just reassurance they will prevail in the end. It acts as motivation to go on living a balanced and healthy lifestyle (an art to living, so to say, with the aid of science).

Historically, the basis of religion has provided a mosaic of cultures and traditions, churches and synagogues. The emphasis has not only been on personal development, but on building stronger communities and developing social life. Given these missions, religions hope to unite people together so we can live in peace, if not harmony. Even though churches may turn dogma into distraction, there's no denying they help to set priorities in life toward charities, families, friends, and most importantly, unto God.

[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]

I. Summary

a + 1, b + 2, c + 3, ...

Art ~ Love
Science ~ Truth
Religion ~ God

Love = Truth = God

That is my proposition, no joke.

Go ahead and make jokes about my sentiments on this kind of forum, if you feel like it, but it just so happens that that's what's new around here. If you try to subdue your machismo for the time being you might just get some of the picture.

Last edited by Prover; 16 Aug 2008 at 11:11.
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Unread 25 Jul 2008, 19:17   #2
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Re: G to the De-tox

II. Other questions

Why do things seem paradoxical and dualistic?

The best hypothesis I have is an analogy with the classic male-female duality. The differences between men and women provide us with the most comprehensive profile of a paradox in history. Orthodoxy views the male as the first human being followed by the female. But however they both came to be, it was likely from the separation of One into two. I think that split is what caused an inherent dualistic quality into our nature. We see the obvious signs now with how females are more oriented toward art while males are more oriented toward science.

A good analogy is a psychological experiment that is done on children's habits when they're playing with toy cars and trucks. On average, little Susie drives them along nice and carefully, while little Joey goes speeding along and crashing. When you think about it, it's not hard to see that a lot of hashing between order and chaos is contributed to the different sexes. It's actually common sense to someone whose experienced an in-depth relationship with an opposing sex. Like Einstein said, "when the solution is simple, God is answering."

This type of sexism is a fundamental concept to understanding nature. We learn a lot from the general discrepancies we see between males and females. And a lot of our problems in the world seem to be a problem with misunderstanding that of sentimentalism, which is an underlying barrier to communication.


Why do we see these 3 essences in life converging toward one goal?

I believe I know the answer, as it relates to both art, science, and religion...the pursuit of Love/Truth/God is more important than any of our other creative/scientific/religious freedoms. Indeed, this truth sets us free. It does put a strain on things, and makes it feel like a detox is needed. It also brings connotations to postmodernist thinking, renaissance ideals, and spiritual philosophy, among lots of things. It's probably why we see a sarcastic tone when things get deviated from Truth. This makes sense because only One is completely serious in the end. Our endeavors should strive to bring our ignorance to terms with our unwavering principles (of our faith). Or else, our time is just spent joking around and having fun. The motto I go by which seems to bring success: "moderation is key," as often said.

On a related note, the humble philanthropist and big-thinker, Sir John Templeton just died recently at age 95. Or rather, I should say, he fulfilled his life at age 95.

Last edited by Prover; 28 Jan 2014 at 05:13. Reason: embarrassment and unquoted
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Unread 25 Jul 2008, 23:36   #3
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Re: G to the De-tox

honestly horn - just move on
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Unread 26 Jul 2008, 18:25   #4
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Yahwe View Post
honestly horn - just move on
1. Who is horn? Or rather, why do you care about him/her?

2. I'm not just moving on without reflecting on why I'm moving on.

You are being nonsensical here, Yahwe.

Furthermore, I could have focused on many of the negative features above, but instead I choose a positive direction. I think that's moving forward in itself. People consider both pros and cons because they need a binary distinction to help their brains out. Then hopefully they recognize that progress is made by correcting wrong things and doing things the right way.


I think my first post is a decent overview of mankind, and how it's headed. (Note: I'm using mostly pattern recognition skills to summarize a lot of history, philosophy, theology, statistics, etc., personal experience.) I'm trying to look at things from multiple perspectives here. If you think I misrepresented a general perspective, or if someone wants to include a new perspective, please explain so. There's always room for constructive responses.

Last edited by Prover; 26 Jul 2008 at 23:00.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 07:31   #5
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Re: G to the De-tox

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover

[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]


what are you doing here then ?
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 11:18   #6
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
what are you doing here then ?
I thought my purpose statement was pretty clear. Go back and re-read it, since your question demonstrates the typical lack of understanding from the narrow-minded thinker who zeros in to the point of abstrusity. The true question is what are you doing here? That is, why are you trying to ignore the major thesis of my post by putting things in a negative view? If you have something to contribute, such as qualitative (or quantitative) information, please do so.

Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.

Last edited by Prover; 27 Jul 2008 at 13:14.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 13:29   #7
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Re: G to the De-tox

Your purpose (summarised in the second paragraph) seems to be more of a general idea focussing on posting in GD. It doesn't bear much relevance to the post(s) itself.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 13:42   #8
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Re: G to the De-tox

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover View Post
I thought my purpose statement was pretty clear. Go back and re-read it, since your question demonstrates the typical lack of understanding from the narrow-minded thinker who zeros in to the point of abstrusity. The true question is what are you doing here? That is, why are you trying to ignore the major thesis of my post by putting things in a negative view? If you have something to contribute, such as qualitative (or quantitative) information, please do so.

Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
To be fair, it is difficult to say anything meaningful or constructive about a "thesis" which is a pile of wank.

While you are sat there typing out your pretentious, unfounded, evangelical tripe, there are children dying of starvation and disease, women being trafficked and forced into prostitution, families and villages being burned off the map by the Burmese junta, children being snatched in their thousands in Africa to be used as labourers, sex-workers, and soldiers... I could go on.

Quote:
I think my first post is a decent overview of mankind
I really disagree. Go and do something more useful with your life. Or at the very least, go and tell this stuff to someone who cares.

Most importantly though, don't reply to me.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 14:07   #9
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Re: G to the De-tox

I thought I'd try taking a bit of it seriously, to see what happens, and I have nothing else to do anyway!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover View Post
[b]
1. There is art: Why?

Nature makes its own art (as science suggests), objectively; we tap into nature to bring out its art, subjectively.
Why is nature's art objective and our art subjective? Does nature not count as a subject as much as any artist? Can people not take different subjective experiences themselves from nature's "art" (whatever that even means). I think a little expansion on what exactly you mean here would be useful.

Quote:
Art usually provokes an emotional response by utilizing a shift in the focus between simple and un-simple things by putting them in and out of context. This spawns pattern, symmetry, irony, ambiguity, etc - all the aesthetics.
I'm not sure I agree with this either, art provokes emotional responses in many different ways that you haven't mentioned here. It's not all about context. There's a certain "art" to the creation of characters in a story, and you can sympathise and empathise with these characters regardless of the context. In fact, in character driven novels (for example) then the context will follow the characters rather than the characters being changed by the author's arbitrary shifting of context. That's just one example though, art provokes emotional responses in many more ways than you have said it "usually" does, that's just one technique used by some artists.

Also I think perhaps "complicated" may have been a better choice of word than "un-simple".

Quote:
If you think about why a big twist at the end of a movie gives us a shock, it's because of a suspension of belief, or a shift of context.
What do you mean here? What does it have to do with suspension of disbelief? If character and plot are created skillfully then it will shock us but not require suspension of belief, in fact it will fit in better than what we thought the ending would have been. It's simple, but you can just say that it gives us a shock because it's not what we were expecting, isn't that all that shock is? Here you are overcomplicating, I feel.

Quote:
On a larger scale, everything we do and create is a work of art on some level. "Art for art's sake" is partly bullsh*t. The very fact that art feels a need to become more sophisticated and interesting over time is a hint to the underlying concept that art seeks for a purpose.
Art for art's sake is an empty phrase. Art for the sake of truth, art for the sake of the good and the beautiful that is the faith I am searching for.

- George Sand

I don't think that art always feels a need to become more sophisticated, we are past modernism as far as art goes. Art in an old, simple, style can still be popular. More common however would be the combination of an old style with a modern twist, I don't think this is necessarily more "sophisticated" than some of the forms of art of the early 20th Century. Trying new things isn't necessarily always moving towards greater sophistication, but more a reaction against a feeling of exhaustion of contemporary styles, whether the product of this is more sophisticated or not is largely random.

Also, even if that were true, you couldn't surmise from it that art always "seeks for a purpose", as Mr Sand said, art for the sake of the good or the beautiful would be a far more popular opinion than some underlying purpose.

Quote:
Thus, art contains objective light.
lol what? This is the most absurd statement so far.

Quote:
When we look at many self-proclaimed "artistic" people, we find a very spiritual quality that has come to be implied with a figurative heart and soul. This type of person probably knows about the paradox seen at the root of our feelings. They have seen a seemingly love-hate duality, until they finally recognized it as it truly was, as a love versus fear scenario (or love with its back turned). Call it the "logic" of love, or in any manner, but both men and women have been putting up with it since Adam and Eve. To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love.
Here you're generalising terribly about artistic people, and then simply placing your own values of love, hate, and then fear or "love with it's back turned". If you're going to use these words in such ways then you need to define them yourself, how is the reader expected to know exactly what you mean by them? I can't even begin to understand what you're trying to say here without knowing that.

Anyway, I have to go to work now, I only did one of your things as I don't really have time for the others. I hope to see a nice reply tonight )))

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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 14:51   #10
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Re: G to the De-tox

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara View Post
To be fair, it is difficult to say anything meaningful or constructive about a "thesis" which is a pile of wank.
Well put.

"Prover" - I don't care how well chosen they are, your words are still empty.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 23:27   #11
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Re: G to the De-tox

Tomkat: my intentions were clearly to spark a healthy debate for those interested in spirituality. Yet, people give me bad rep for being obnoxious or what not. They could have just ignored this post after reading my purposes, if they were not interested, but no.

Deepflow:

You give a valid point of the objective-subjective duality being in terms of 3D-thinking. They are probably interrelated in the 4D sense. I just meant to emphasize a connection between nature and human beings. In my mind, all of our language/logic and creativity is used to simplify things that we have yet to understand. So when referring to those expressions, such as art, I use the term 'un-simple' to be logically consistent. I was using the movie twist because I thought it was an obvious example, so not to get complicated. A more phenomenal example is in regard to the golden ratio. This reoccurring proportion in nature is used in the various arts such architecture, painting, and music to synthesize an essence of symmetry. What's interesting is how science is the polar opposite of art, in general. (Note: the golden ratio is a tool which essentially balances the scientific and artistic aspects). Science is mostly about reductive and deconstructive techniques to make "advancement", while art is more about reconstructive and abstract reflections. That's basically what I was saying about a shift of context. Do you not see what I mean now?

You also highlight something about the significance of art. Whether art seeks a faint purpose or not, I just noticed I was arguing for its relationship with Love precisely backwards. You said, "art for the sake of the good or the beautiful would be a far more popular opinion than some underlying purpose." I would argue that good and beautiful stem from something much more immense. That is love. Love brings about art. You cannot argue with that. I know many different emotions also bring about art, but my emphasis is on love. I would say this is a most common theme in artistic circles. It also relates nicely to the paradox I explained at the root of our feelings with love. I am aware of my generalizations, but there is no other way to build a short account of my reflections.

Telcontar: my words are not empty to yours truly.

Last edited by Prover; 27 Jul 2008 at 23:52.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 23:43   #12
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Re: G to the De-tox

Your proposition in itself is already severely flawed.
Your assumption of "religion equals God" is too narrow, while religion is a broader concept which does contain for instance monotheism, polytheism, but also atheism.
This flaw also points at a severly narrow mindedness of you yourself, Prover. Your purpose shows this as well:
Quote:
To (a) share my spiritual experiences, (b) learn in an open-minded environment, (c) practice my evangelicalism.
A priori, practicising evangelicalism and learning in an open-minded environment exclude eachother. This observation is beautifully exemplified by:
Quote:
Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
My observation is that you are the one who is narrow-minded, arrogant and tries to persuade people in a way that will only bring the opposite result. If you wish to accomplish an open debate, if you wish to have a sound critical discussion: start opening yourself up. I wish you good luck.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 00:09   #13
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Re: G to the De-tox

Membrivio:

Never did I say "religion equals God". It was clearly "religion is about God". It was also clearly implicit that I meant the God-religions, which make up the 'average' religion anyway. I said up front this was a very broad-minded topic, yet you are confusing that with narrow-mindedness. Furthermore, practicing evangelicalism and learning in an open-minded environment easily do not exclude each other. You know very little about my brand of evangelicalism in the first place. Then you take one sentence that slipped out in a reply of frustration about atheists and try to retract everything else I wrote. When else was I not being positive? Do you not see the problem here is with a gap in communication? It's not about arrogance or narrow-mindedness. It should be about humility and empathy. I have a very good grasp of 'averages' in the world, so that is how I'm presenting my arguments because they are the clear facts of human nature. You might see this post as generalizing too much (I call it pattern recognition), but I think it's as founded as any other scientific discipline. I just haven't included all the hard statistics.

Last edited by Prover; 28 Jul 2008 at 02:15.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 00:46   #14
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Re: G to the De-tox

I'm going to ask you a lot of questions this time, in my continuing effort to take you seriously, it would be helpful if you would answer them. One by one would be best, in a similar fashion to the post I am about to make. If I and everyone else can actually understand what you are trying to say I think you will be more successful.

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You give a valid point of the objective-subjective duality being in terms of 3D-thinking. They are probably interrelated in the 4D sense.
OK... what do you mean by 3D and 4D in this context? What is each dimension? Who thinks 3D and who thinks 4D?

Quote:
I just meant to emphasize a connection between nature and human beings.
How are human beings distinct from nature? Surely we are part of it. What exactly do you mean by nature? Just everything that isn't human, or just everything that isn't human that lives?

Quote:
In my mind, all of our language/logic and creativity is used to simplify things that we have yet to understand. So when referring to those expressions, such as art, I use the term 'un-simple' to be logically consistent.
I disagree. Language, logic, and creativity are three very different things with different purposes.

Language is used to communicate, pretty obviously. It's a way of changing material things and concepts into easy to understand signs so that we can pass ideas from one person's mind into anothers and learn from each other. We also use it internally to think. You could say that this is a way of simplifying. The word "rock" is never going to be as "rocky" as a real rock.

Logic is completely different, it's the process by which we infer and deduce things starting from other things. It's more fundamental than language and completely, unreservedly correct when used properly. Whereas language is never completely "correct", logic always is. I also don't see how it's a way to simplify things, it's more a way to describe things, simplification is not necessary. Could you explain how you think that is?

Creativity could possibly be said to be a way to simplify things I guess, in some circumstances. It simplifies in some respects but quite often it adds to concepts, too.

Quote:
I was using the movie twist because I thought it was an obvious example, so not to get complicated. A more phenomenal example is in regard to the golden ratio. This reoccurring proportion in nature is used in the various arts such architecture, painting, and music to synthesize an essence of symmetry. What's interesting is how science is the polar opposite of art, in general.
In what ways is science the opposite of art?

Quote:
(Note: the golden ratio is a tool which essentially balances the scientific and artistic aspects). Science is mostly about reductive and deconstructive techniques to make "advancement", while art is more about reconstructive and abstract reflections. That's basically what I was saying about a shift of context. Do you not see what I mean now?
I'm afraid not. What exactly was it you were trying to say in the first place? Are you saying the golden ratio creates a shift in context because it mixes science and art? Why does that have to be a shift in context? Science and art are both parts of reality and to mingle them is perfectly natural. There is beauty in science and exactitude in art, does that always create a "shift in context"? Why is that concept necessary?

Quote:
You also highlight something about the significance of art. Whether art seeks a faint purpose or not, I just noticed I was arguing for its relationship with Love precisely backwards.
You still really really need to define love as you're using it in this dialogue, why didn't you do that?

Quote:
You said, "art for the sake of the good or the beautiful would be a far more popular opinion than some underlying purpose." I would argue that good and beautiful stem from something much more immense. That is love. Love brings about art. You cannot argue with that.
Why not? How does love bring about art?

Define it ffs.

Quote:
I know many different emotions also bring about art, but my emphasis is on love. I would say this is a most common theme in artistic circles.
It's a common theme but why does the theme bring about art? I would assume it was more creativity that did that, with the theme merely shaping the nature of it.

Quote:
It also relates nicely to the paradox I explained at the root of our feelings with love. I am aware of my generalizations, but there is no other way to build a short account of my reflections.
Then don't build a short account. If no one really understands you because you aren't specific enough then you're going to get people just insulting you and you're basically wasting everyone's time. I'm sorry, but you can't explain all these things within a few hundred words, these are the issues that the greatest minds of humanity have been pondering upon for millenia. If you're going to discuss them at the very least you need to be consistent and methodical, something you haven't been.

Please, respond to this point by point. Take the time that I have taken with this reply in yours, and we may begin to get somewhere. At the moment you may as well be spouting gibberish.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 01:15   #15
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Deepflow View Post
If no one really understands you because you aren't specific enough then you're going to get people just insulting you and you're basically wasting everyone's time.
This is exactly why I'm practicing on forward thinking. However, I think the big picture in its simplicity is extremely underrated. This obviously causes a communication problem between people who focus differently. Does it not? Is there really a true way to focus? I think the solution is for both sides to think forwardly and meet halfway.


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OK... what do you mean by 3D and 4D in this context? What is each dimension? Who thinks 3D and who thinks 4D?
In my third paragraph, I briefly mentioned how science suggested that our thought processes were confined to dualistic interpretation in what I call 3D-thinking. I could go into all the different analogies including binary logic, mirror reflections, binocular vision, chaos theory, quantum mechanics, relativity theory, etc. But I know the lay person probably isn't familiar with a lot of this. Basically, 4D-thinking embodies the probabilistic approach taken to supersede binary thought. Ex: instead of using 0 or 1, a number between 0 and 1 is used. From this point on, my assumption is that our knowledge is truly revealed as a distinction between [true and not true] rather than [true and false] at its roots. This is a philosophical tenet that maybe not everyone agrees with. This explains our differences with the definition of "logic".

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How are human beings distinct from nature? Surely we are part of it. What exactly do you mean by nature? Just everything that isn't human, or just everything that isn't human that lives?
I would argue there are both internal and external "worlds" as part of our 3D-duality that are truly superposed when time is added to the equation (in 4D). I also would argue there are multiple levels of consciousness involved that brain chemistry knows next to nothing about.

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In what ways is science the opposite of art?
Science focuses more on externality while art focuses more on internality.

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Originally Posted by Deepflow View Post
You still really really need to define love as you're using it in this dialogue, why didn't you do that?
Love is ineffable.

"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." 1 Cor. 13

There is fully no scientific explanation for it. The question is, what is not Love?

Is Love not true?

Last edited by Prover; 28 Jul 2008 at 03:34.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 13:37   #16
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by prover
1. Who is horn? Or rather, why do you care about him/her?
ita IS A mEEEeeeeee


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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
In my third paragraph, I briefly mentioned how science suggested that our thought processes were confined to dualistic interpretation in what I call 3D-thinking. I could go into all the different analogies including binary logic, mirror reflections, binocular vision, chaos theory, quantum mechanics, relativity theory, etc. But I know the lay person probably isn't familiar with a lot of this. Basically, 4D-thinking embodies the probabilistic approach taken to supersede binary thought. Ex: instead of using 0 or 1, a number between 0 and 1 is used. From this point on, my assumption is that our knowledge is truly revealed as a distinction between [true and not true] rather than [true and false] at its roots. This is a philosophical tenet that maybe not everyone agrees with. This explains our differences with the definition of "logic".
3D is a really bizzare term to use to describe a form of thought that you consider to be "dualistic", because dualistic thinking involves ideas that transcend the idea of the 3 dimensions we manifestly experience.

It's possible this isn't a problem though, because it's hard to tell if that's what you mean by either 3D thought or dualistic thought.

The reason why it's hard to know what you mean by dualistic thought is because you're rambling on about two different aspects of dualism. One is a manichaeian dualism, viewing the world as having identifiable traits that have a "binary opposition". This seems to be what you are labelling as the inherant paradoxes throughout nature (i.e. love and hate).
The other seems to be a body/spirit dualism. Something you obviously hold as true given that you believe having sex is a union of souls or whatever. Which one to you belive 3D thinking to be in allegiance to?

The reason why it's hard to know what you mean by 3D thinking is because of what you go on to describe 4D thinking as.
At first I assumed that by 3D thought, you meant thought that was concerned with sense data we receive from the conventional 3 dimensions that we know of. But then when you mention 4D thinking, you don't seem to be referring to the conventional idea of 4 dimensions (3 spacial dimensions + time). You seem to be referring to the fourth dimension as some convoluted synthesis of art, science and religion.

Do you see why none of this makes sense to someone who isn't living in your head?




Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
I also would argue there are multiple levels of consciousness involved that brain chemistry knows next to nothing about.
Sounds interesting. The only thing i can remember in your posts (i skimmed most i'm afraid) that seems to fit the bill are love and art. Well the boys over at the brain chemistry lab seem to feel pretty confident that they do actually know something about love. Art is slightly more complicated. Let's have a look at what you had to say in relation to shining some light on the matter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
1. There is art: Why?

Nature makes its own art (as science suggests), objectively; we tap into nature to bring out its art, subjectively.
this is a good example of why your writing is bad. saying "nature makes its own art (as science suggests)" suggests to the reader that you think nature intentionally produces art through either its own agency, or the agency or whom/whatever created nature, and that this is supported by science. which is wrong. you then say we tap into nature to "bring out its art, subjectively". but what do you mean by this? do you mean your first sentence was just misleading and that you really believe our interpretation of natural phenomena as something with artistic properties as entirely subjective, or do you mean that those artistic qualities exist objectively, but that we intepret or appreciate them subjectively?

You could quite easily write a paragraph like this asking you to define pretty much every sentence you have written.



Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
Art usually provokes an emotional response by utilizing a shift in the focus between simple and un-simple things by putting them in and out of context.
no, it doesn't. it creates an emotional response because we are inherantly dualistic beings who second guess and empathise with the intentions of the creator of the artwork.


Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
When we look at many self-proclaimed "artistic" people, we find a very spiritual quality that has come to be implied with a figurative heart and soul. This type of person probably knows about the paradox seen at the root of our feelings. They have seen a seemingly love-hate duality, until they finally recognized it as it truly was, as a love versus fear scenario (or love with its back turned). Call it the "logic" of love, or in any manner, but both men and women have been putting up with it since Adam and Eve. To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love.
This isn't really an argument is it. I could just replace the word love with hate in that paragraph and it would be just as convincing/worthwhile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
Is Love not true?
not as you experience it buddy


Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
I. Summary

a + 1, b + 2, c + 3, ...
that doesn't make sense to me

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
Art ~ Love
Science ~ Truth
Religion ~ God
i assume the ~ means that the reason why the preceeding phenomena that exists, is because of the following phenomena?

Obviously the first one is ridiculous. If the second one just means we engage in science because we want to find out the truth then i think you're right!
The third one..... do you mean religion exists because of god? or because religion exists because people believe in a god and want to get closer to him or pander to him or whatever?

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Originally Posted by prover
Love = Truth = God
IT'S A CONTINUUM!
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 13:47   #17
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
Orthodoxy views the male as the first human being followed by the female. But however they both came to be, it was likely from the separation of One into two. I think that split is what caused an inherent dualistic quality into our nature.
that's funny because it's actually dualism that's fuelling your belief in adam and eve in the first place
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 13:49   #18
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Re: G to the De-tox

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I would argue that good and beautiful stem from something much more immense. That is love. Love brings about art. You cannot argue with that.
sorry, i missed this bit.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 15:06   #19
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by horn View Post
that's funny because it's actually dualism that's fuelling your belief in adam and eve in the first place
No, it would unequivocally be monoism in the first place, as I ascribed to many times as "One". Even though I was using dualism for a simplistic approach at times (I made some errors and I explained as such), I thought it was pretty clear I'm a proponent of pluralism.

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Originally Posted by horn View Post
(i skimmed most i'm afraid)
...
sorry, i missed this bit.
You obviously missed a lot in skimming over the replies because I corrected the relationship as Love ~ Art, from being in reverse. I use '~' to signify an implication/approximation. I try to not conclude anything about causation, and what I've mostly provided is based on correlations. Also, it was clearly stated as a proposition (or hypothesis) based strictly on historical and statistical premises.

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Originally Posted by horn View Post
The reason why it's hard to know what you mean by 3D thinking is because of what you go on to describe 4D thinking as.
At first I assumed that by 3D thought, you meant thought that was concerned with sense data we receive from the conventional 3 dimensions that we know of. But then when you mention 4D thinking, you don't seem to be referring to the conventional idea of 4 dimensions (3 spacial dimensions + time). You seem to be referring to the fourth dimension as some convoluted synthesis of art, science and religion.

Do you see why none of this makes sense to someone who isn't living in your head?
I have painstakingly seen it. It's called a communication gap. It's exactly why I started at a foundation, as such, so you could follow along with my thought process. In not paying close enough attention, having skimmed over my responses, how are you helping the situation? It's not just a problem between me and GD. It's a universal problem between people who share different levels of sentiments, irregardless of intellectual ability (I am clearly one who favors the multiple intelligences theory). Science ignores it by being strictly objective, while art is relatively more subjective. I have specifically referred to this as a 'spiritual' discussion, limited to neither science nor art.

It's good to meet you horn, but you really have no idea what I said, do you? Because you missed the most important point about the difference between 3D- and 4D-thinking. Most of my reasoning is based off the idea that our universe is embedded with a probabilistic nature that intersects two poles. This is not dualistic thinking except in the simplistic sense of language/logic in our 3D environment, so I clearly refer to it as a paradox. When transcending into 4D territory, which is relative to space-time, we also see a paradox on a much grander scale. That is more so involved with a distinction we see between pluralism and monoism. All the latest research in science is trying to bridge this gap with their very large telescopes and their large particle accelerators.

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not as you experience it buddy
Love is not true as I experience it? Here we've reached an irreconcilable difference. Love, not just sex, is the most sensational thing that exists to me. So I will stand on my experience of this truth. (Yes, the females are getting to me).

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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:04   #20
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Re: G to the De-tox

This is turning into one of those terrible comedy sketches where the two girls realise they're dating one guy who is pretending to be a twin.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:05   #21
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Re: G to the De-tox

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No,
yes. the form of religion is called monoism. but the reason why you believe in such crap is because you have a dualistic world outlook and hence have bought into monoism to legitimise and formalise your belief in things like souls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
I thought it was pretty clear I'm a proponent of pluralism.
no. what's pretty clear is that you are trying to categorise everything as some tangential offshoot of love/truth/god. that isn't pluralism, that's reductionism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
You obviously missed a lot in skimming over the replies because I corrected the relationship as Love ~ Art. I use '~' to signify an implication/approximation. I try to not conclude anything about causation, and what I've mostly provided is based on correlations. It was clearly a proposition (or hypothesis) as well.
if the the sequence of words isn't used to imply causation, then why does your "correction" (i.e. you switching the words around) mean anything?

it also seemed pretty clear cut when you said "To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love."

If you have decided that it really is just a correlation rather than causation between love and art, then what does it really mean? people feel love and sometimes express that through art? unless you stick to what you were earlier saying and instead decide to rest on "sometimes art has kind of something to do with love", it's pretty meaningless. so what if it does? it also has stuff to do with other feelings.

[quote=prover
(I am clearly one who favors the multiple intelligences theory). Science ignores it by being strictly objective, while art is relatively more subjective. I have specifically referred to this as a 'spiritual' discussion, limited to neither science nor art. [/quote]
No one's saying discussions on art are devoid of intelligence. It's just that your pretentious ramblings about the relationship between love and art aren't transcendent realisations, but rather ill thought out bullshit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
It's good to meet you horn, but you really have no idea what I said, do you? Because you missed the most important point about the difference between 3D- and 4D-thinking.
did you miss the bit where i asked you to define what they meant? you can use my suggestions of what they might mean as a template!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
Most of my reasoning is based off the idea that our universe is embedded with a probabilistic nature that intersects two poles. This is not dualistic thinking except in the simplistic sense of language/logic in our 3D environment, so I clearly refer to it as a paradox.
This doesn't make sense to me in any way. Please can you use one of the earlier listed phenomena to help explain via example what it is you mean. If i may pick one off the list, i would rather quantum mechanics. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
When transcending into 4D territory, which is relative to space-time,
do you actually mean relative to space-time, or just space-time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
we also see a paradox on a much grander scale.
what paradox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
That is more so involved with a distinction we see between pluralism and monoism.
what's more involved with this distinction? the paradox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
All the latest research in science is trying to bridge this gap with their very large telescopes and large particle accelerators.
is the paradox you're talking about quantum theory and general relativity? (that's what the guys behind the telescopes call it)
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:06   #22
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Re: G to the De-tox

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This is turning into one of those terrible comedy sketches where the two girls realise they're dating one guy who is pretending to be a twin.
they were all written by people you.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:07   #23
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Re: G to the De-tox

a lot of ownage in this thread
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:38   #24
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Re: G to the De-tox

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no. what's pretty clear is that you are trying to categorise everything as some tangential offshoot of love/truth/god. that isn't pluralism, that's reductionism.
How is it possible not to categorize at some point? If you give no meaning to the term pluralism (which is itself a category), then I would say reductionism is really the endless deconstruction of ideas (that you are exhibiting). Again, you avoid some of my earlier remarks on this account.

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did you miss the bit where i asked you to define what they meant?
You haven't exhibited any attempt to give meaning to my statements with your destructive tendency. Meaning is essentially a subjective idea. I'm in the middle of trying to 'define' it, can you not see? I would suggest, rather than nit-picking points and stretching out this thread too long, you synthesize a response into a complete paragraph. (To meet me halfway here). That's how people begin to understand things.

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Please can you use one of the earlier listed phenomena to help explain via example what it is you mean. If i may pick one off the list, i would rather quantum mechanics.
If you were at all familiar with quantum mechanics, you would know about its subjective nature given that light behaves as both a wave and a particle. That duality (I like to call it a paradox) is at the physical limits for advancement in science, so probability is used (as 4D-thinking) to bridge this gap in describing nature. (This is also relevantly adopted by meteorologists who are coming to terms with chaos theory in weather predictions). When we go beyond this paradox, we get into purely theoretical grounds. You might escape this paradox by invoking super-strings and a many-worlds hypothesis (so to be physically "objective"), but I would say that that's an infinite reduction in itself, where as my hypothesis is more of a regression. What makes your reduction any better than my more-so regressive approach? Looking in retrospect (at history), we see that our understanding has come from a combination of both these techniques.

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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:49   #25
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 18:09   #26
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
This is exactly why I'm practicing on forward thinking. However, I think the big picture in its simplicity is extremely underrated. This obviously causes a communication problem between people who focus differently. Does it not? Is there really a true way to focus? I think the solution is for both sides to think forwardly and meet halfway.
Me? I used to prefer backwards thinking, then I moved onto sideways. Currently I'm thinking in a spiral that's continuing to infinity.

Quote:
In my third paragraph, I briefly mentioned how science suggested that our thought processes were confined to dualistic interpretation in what I call 3D-thinking. I could go into all the different analogies including binary logic, mirror reflections, binocular vision, chaos theory, quantum mechanics, relativity theory, etc. But I know the lay person probably isn't familiar with a lot of this.
Try me, cos yo' shit still dun make no sense nigga. I be thinkin' it far more likely that yo' quantum mechanics education is pretty weak.

Quote:
Basically, 4D-thinking embodies the probabilistic approach taken to supersede binary thought. Ex: instead of using 0 or 1, a number between 0 and 1 is used. From this point on, my assumption is that our knowledge is truly revealed as a distinction between [true and not true] rather than [true and false] at its roots. This is a philosophical tenet that maybe not everyone agrees with. This explains our differences with the definition of "logic".
Yo nigga, you ever heard of a lil' number called 0.5? I dun think so. tcch. I think dem scientist folks 'ave do, at least that's what my cousin Merl be sayin', he sweeps dem floors down at de unibersity.

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I would argue there are both internal and external "worlds" as part of our 3D-duality that are truly superposed when time is added to the equation (in 4D). I also would argue there are multiple levels of consciousness involved that brain chemistry knows next to nothing about.
Man dem brains is crazy shit, ain't no-one know for sure what's goin' on in dere. I tink dat dose nooroscientists can still see that dere is tings happenin' tho. You only gotta go a few deaoretical steps furder to see why a = b an shit. Dere ain't no reason dis shit don't 'ave to be materialistic bro. Experiential bullshit dat we un unnerstan' all yet dun mean we gotta give up on science and push sum bullshit philosophy.

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Science focuses more on externality while art focuses more on internality.
Man were yu tink dem water lilies dat monet painted come from? His head yo? Nah, dat shit ain't right. Nigga was blind.

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Love is ineffable.

"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." 1 Cor. 13
You be quotin' da bible at me now? What dis nigga been smokin'? My granmar still go to church and shit but she be dyin' so I can sorta unnerstand her broken ol' ass, what your excuse.

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There is fully no scientific explanation for it. The question is, what is not Love?
Dis thread man, dis thread.

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Is Love not true?
Nah man, love is lying fo' yo' niggas wen do po-lice is all up on dem asses.

You feel it?

tcch
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 18:24   #27
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Re: G to the De-tox

It shows more about your lack of understanding humanity, your lack of personal values and character, and especially your lack of taking things seriously, as I mentioned earlier. Go ahead and mock me, but know that I'm being resolutely serious here.

Last edited by Prover; 28 Jul 2008 at 18:29.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 18:59   #28
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Re: G to the De-tox

Can you reduce your argument down to like 200 words because I read your first post and still dont know what youre trying to argue and I dont really want to read all the other wall-of-texts in da thread because they seem to be all over the place and not focused on anything in particular.

Also what does '4d' have to do with probabilistic thinking I dont get that at all

this thread
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 19:35   #29
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Re: G to the De-tox

well this certainly puts to bed any doubts people have about horn's sanity ...
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 19:59   #30
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Deepflow View Post

I disagree. Language, logic, and creativity are three very different things with different purposes.

Language is used to communicate, pretty obviously. It's a way of changing material things and concepts into easy to understand signs so that we can pass ideas from one person's mind into anothers and learn from each other. We also use it internally to think. You could say that this is a way of simplifying. The word "rock" is never going to be as "rocky" as a real rock.

Logic is completely different, it's the process by which we infer and deduce things starting from other things. It's more fundamental than language and completely, unreservedly correct when used properly. Whereas language is never completely "correct", logic always is. I also don't see how it's a way to simplify things, it's more a way to describe things, simplification is not necessary. Could you explain how you think that is?

Creativity could possibly be said to be a way to simplify things I guess, in some circumstances. It simplifies in some respects but quite often it adds to concepts, too.
AH BUT ACTUALLY THE ROCK IS AN EVIL DEMON'S PENIS
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 09:02   #31
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Deepflow View Post
Logic is completely different, it's the process by which we infer and deduce things starting from other things. It's more fundamental than language and completely, unreservedly correct when used properly. Whereas language is never completely "correct", logic always is. I also don't see how it's a way to simplify things, it's more a way to describe things, simplification is not necessary. Could you explain how you think that is?
I think this inference is backwards. Logic is fundamental to what...nature? How do you figure? How much do we really understand about nature to say in all "correction"? I argue that language is more-so fundamental with respect to human nature for constructing meaning. Humans know more about humans than they know about nature. Do you not agree? I argue further...

So a rock is what it is: a rock. To a petrologist, a rock is a form of igneous sediment crystallized granite mineral heat ashes energized molecules strong chemical bonds atoms etc. Break up a rock, and reduce its meaning. Less information has more meaning. This suggests there is no intrinsic meaning in material things. Since when you lose a sense of order, you also lose a sense of meaning. I explain more below.

Do you think everything is pointless? To say so is incomplete and inaccurate. We might not see an ultimate point, but we do see a distribution of points (on a wave function) that become more ordered in time (in their destination). This "plot" we see is based on the concept of entropy in statistical mechanics. Where a loss of information comes from a loss of randomness, and so the maximum entropy is assumed for the most probable explanation of a physical system (Boltzmann).

It's also what I mean by the probabilistic nature of the universe. To be more correct, it's the probabilistic nature of humans looking at the universe. Time is chance, so I infer '4D'-thinking. God might not play dice with the universe, but it seems the universe is playing dice with God.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 10:17   #32
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Re: G to the De-tox

This is getting amusingly absurd. Very pro.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 17:44   #33
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
I think this inference is backwards. Logic is fundamental to what...nature? How do you figure? How much do we really understand about nature to say in all "correction"? I argue that language is more-so fundamental with respect to human nature for constructing meaning. Humans know more about humans than they know about nature. Do you not agree? I argue further...
Logic always be correct internally man, de only ting dat can make logic wrong is if u put da wrong values in, ya feel me?

Quote:
So a rock is what it is: a rock. To a petrologist, a rock is a form of igneous sediment crystallized granite mineral heat ashes energized molecules strong chemical bonds atoms etc. Break up a rock, and reduce its meaning. Less information has more meaning. This suggests there is no intrinsic meaning in material things. Since when you lose a sense of order, you also lose a sense of meaning. I explain more below.
Nah man, when you break up a rock you still got all dose tings (an by de way, i don't tink any wun rock 'as all dose tings), you just got em a bit more spread out like. Also how you reckon a lotta pebbles is less information dan wun big rock? tcch

Quote:
Do you think everything is pointless? To say so is incomplete and inaccurate. We might not see an ultimate point, but we do see a distribution of points (on a wave function) that become more ordered in time (in their destination). This "plot" we see is based on the concept of entropy in statistical mechanics. Where a loss of information comes from a loss of randomness, and so the maximum entropy is assumed for the most probable explanation of a physical system (Boltzmann).
Who be sayin' everyting is pointless man? You can construct your own meanings from da shit you be findin' all around you. Dat's all dere is man, billions o' little meanings dat all dese people 'ave made. No-one be sayin' shit is pointless, and even if it were, we wouldn't 'ave no way o' knowin'.

Quote:
It's also what I mean by the probabilistic nature of the universe. To be more correct, it's the probabilistic nature of humans looking at the universe. Time is chance, so I infer '4D'-thinking. God might not play dice with the universe, but it seems the universe is playing dice with God.
Dis don't even make no sense internally man, if dis be an argument you be missing out about 5 steps in between each statement. You got a ladder with only a fifth of da rungs? How a nigga gonna climb dat shit? Tcch

note: "Tcch" is that sound that black people make with their teeth.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 18:17   #34
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Re: G to the De-tox

an overmind is an ambiguous meme
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 18:25   #35
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Re: G to the De-tox

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note: "Tcch" is that sound that black people make with their teeth.
Gold.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 18:35   #36
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
...


edit
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Originally Posted by Prover
You haven't exhibited any attempt to give meaning to my statements
...
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 19:22   #37
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Re: G to the De-tox

Reading some of the other posts has made no sense to me, espcially as I didn't read this one first. I'm going over some old ground, but I don't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover View Post
my spiritual experiences, (b) learn in an open-minded environment, (c) practice my evangelicalism.
What is your background? Were you raised in a religious family?

Quote:
This will facilitate a holistic approach to understanding the big picture, though we can't fully understand it during our time. It is a paradox to be thinking in 4D.
What is 4D thinking? Why is it a paradox?

Quote:
Yet we can infer within our limits some of what it entails. The more we look at paradoxes the more we come to the ineffable, and vice versa.
How so? The complexity of language or a lack of understanding? Or something else?

Quote:
Modern thought has mostly been dualistic as a result of what was normally 3D-thinking (modern science approves this with innumerable evidence),
Doesn't careful inspection of particles and shit reject dualism? Isn't it only kept as a simplification?

Quote:
but now it is expanding outward as we pervade the scope of time (as a continuous spectrum).
Making 4D thought?

Quote:
A most illustrative method is to combine the 3 general aspects we see of life into one. It's supposed to become an image of order and simplicity in your mind...

The following 3 categories include: Art, Science, & Religion
Isn't this rather arbitrary? Why are these three separate categories? At best, isn't it simply a condition of modern society, a continually altering idea?

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- Each of these are important to an extent in our lives (the whole of humanity). My hypothesis is that all these paths in life search for the same thing.
This is a broad generalisation and assumes all people are searching for the same thing.

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1. There is art: Why?

Nature makes its own art (as science suggests), objectively; we tap into nature to bring out its art, subjectively.
No we don't. This literally makes no sense. Science suggests nothing of the sort. I don't believe science is even capable of suggesting such a thing.

Quote:
Art usually provokes an emotional response by utilizing a shift in the focus between simple and un-simple things by putting them in and out of context. This spawns pattern, symmetry, irony, ambiguity, etc - all the aesthetics. If you think about why a big twist at the end of a movie gives us a shock, it's because of a suspension of belief, or a shift of context.
There are many kinds of things art does to people. There is no reason why 'simple things' cannot produce as great (or greater) emotional impact than the big shock. I would go far as to suggest that the best works of art are not the ones with the big shocks, which can be simple compensations for a lack of substance.

Quote:
On a larger scale, everything we do and create is a work of art on some level. "Art for art's sake" is partly bullsh*t.
Isn't this a contradiction with your earleir point? If art is objective, then art for arts sake could produce the best works ever? Why does there have to be a greater reason than 'I like to do it'? Does the artist need to understand what he is doing? What about autistic people?

Quote:
The very fact that art feels a need to become more sophisticated and interesting over time is a hint to the underlying concept that art seeks for a purpose. Thus, art contains objective light.
I would suggest changes in art are usually the result of the socio-economic situation alongside the history of art up until that point. I see no reason to conclude that art is 'going somewhere' rather than 'constantly moving'.

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When we look at many self-proclaimed "artistic" people, we find a very spiritual quality that has come to be implied with a figurative heart and soul.
People talking bollocks about themselves shocker!

Quote:
This type of person probably knows about the paradox seen at the root of our feelings. They have seen a seemingly love-hate duality, until they finally recognized it as it truly was, as a love versus fear scenario (or love with its back turned). Call it the "logic" of love, or in any manner, but both men and women have been putting up with it since Adam and Eve. To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love.
Never underestimate the ability of people to talk absolute bollocks and for other people to take it seriously.

Expression of art can come from love, but it also comes from many other places.

Quote:
2. There is science: Why?

"Cogito, ergo sum." All of science is trying to formulate a complete response to this most fundamental proposition on the philosophy of knowledge. We might be able to infer that we exist, but 'why?' is still the lingering question. So rather than only speculating and reacting with our imagination, we mix it up by investigating natural and material substances where our actions and reality take form.
This is where is gets really messed up. Science gets results. Science interests some people. The pursuit of knowledge/truth is one way. Lots of money is another. Being proclaimed a genius and going down in history for a great discovery is another. These are not all noble goals, but they can all progress science.

Quote:
Our logic has been reduced to binary distinctions, and to avoid the dualistic quarrel, further to probabilistic relations. Scientists are trying desperately to reduce the paradox of our overextended 4D-vision into worldly knowledge. This brings about a progressive, if not positive, light into science.
What do you mean by 'worldly knowledge?'

Quote:
People have realized a body of knowledge through interpretation of their experiences. As a result of this understanding, people feel a sense of power that comes with it. This energy, if you will, is what makes us apply our education in the world and in society, as we feel a sense of responsibility for bringing it about.
Some people do, others don't. Some even oppose science!

Some might suggest that the material benefits are why we utilise scientific discoveries and the spreading of education is accompanied by methods of social control, so only 'useful' knowledge is passed along.

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(It also seems related to the influx we notice at the subatomic level).
No idea what this means.

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But the important point here is that we seek advancement because it gives us more confidence and assurance in our lives.
A generalisation, and a false one at that. I don't believe people feel more confident and asured now than they did 200 years ago.

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The ultimate goal is to find out what is really true. We look at the most basic feature we know of the universe, light, and in between try to uncover both its beginning and its destination. Therein lies the answer to universal truth.
Could you elaborate on this point?

Quote:
3. There is religion: Why?

Religion is more of an intermediary aspect than the more polarized aspects of art and science. It is correlated to many pursuits in both the arts and sciences. And despite its interdisciplinary nature, it has the most simplistic approach to living life.
This is a mockery of both science and art. Religion presents lies as both the definition of truth and of beauty. Religion pays lip-service to both, only insofar as they promote religion.

Quote:
This peace of mind that religious faith brings to an individual is more than just reassurance they will prevail in the end.
I don't know if any religious person actually has peace of mind.

Quote:
It acts as motivation to go on living a balanced and healthy lifestyle (an art to living, so to say, with the aid of science).
It gives a set of rules, which people choose to follow or ignore as they want. To what extent it has a positive impact is debatable.

Quote:
Historically, the basis of religion has provided a mosaic of cultures and traditions, churches and synagogues. The emphasis has not only been on personal development, but on building stronger communities and developing social life. Given these missions, religions hope to unite people together so we can live in peace, if not harmony.
Too general. Too many religions. Religious conflicts seem to disagree with these points.

Quote:
Even though churches may turn dogma into distraction, there's no denying they help to set priorities in life toward charities, families, friends, and most importantly, unto God.
They set priorites that benefit themselves, generally speaking. Promoting God, it also a benefit to the church.

Quote:
[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]
I'm not sure why you have brought this up, or why you think 'different situations stimulate different emotions' is relevent here.

Quote:
I. Summary

a + 1, b + 2, c + 3, ...

Art ~ Love
Science ~ Truth
Religion ~ God

Love = Truth = God

That is my proposition, no joke.

Go ahead and make jokes about my sentiments on this kind of forum, if you feel like it, but it just so happens that that's what's new around here. If you try to subdue your machismo for the time being you might just get some of the picture.
No idea why you have concluded this or what you actually believe.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 20:17   #38
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go View Post
Never underestimate the ability of people to talk absolute bollocks and for other people to take it seriously.
Quoted for emphasis.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 20:48   #39
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Re: G to the De-tox

All Systems Go: You clearly did not consider my previous replies because I've largely clarified (and corrected) many of the things you're questioning. Do people not know how proper communication works? I have no idea what you're trying to say in a long post with a bunch of destructive questions. Understand: nobody is teaching here; learning comes from within. Please write in complete paragraphs and try to limit your questions to a few, so to help bridge our communication gap.

The discussion came down to a fundamental difference in our scientific understanding as I explained in post #31. Do try to keep up. The difference between us is that I don't assume to know even 1% about the nature of reality, whereas you (materialists) assume the nature of reality is all we can know. Let's focus on settling this distinction.

Last edited by Prover; 29 Jul 2008 at 21:09.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 21:09   #40
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Re: G to the De-tox

I used to have a 3D poster of Sam Fox. I swear down her thighs followed you all round the room.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 22:55   #41
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Re: G to the De-tox

anyone find it ironic that this thread started like this

OP wank post
Random slaggins from random ppl

Now usually this is where the thread dies...but for some reason posters are engaging OP in subjective debate.

Holy bat shit did this just become a thread?

/me pulls up a seat to watch
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 03:32   #42
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
How is it possible not to categorize at some point? If you give no meaning to the term pluralism (which is itself a category), then I would say reductionism is really the endless deconstruction of ideas (that you are exhibiting).
needing to categorise things at some point is not a justification for you conflating all aspects of art as a creation of love. nor anything else you've posted so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
Again, you avoid some of my earlier remarks on this account.
I might be ignoring "remarks", but i'm not ignoring any points. If you can find some that have to do with what we're (i'm?) talking about then please repost them. i must have missed them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
You haven't exhibited any attempt to give meaning to my statements with your destructive tendency.
i've asked you to define and clarify words/sentences that to 3D people, appear to not make sense. you aren't doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
Meaning is essentially a subjective idea. I'm in the middle of trying to 'define' it, can you not see? I would suggest, rather than nit-picking points and stretching out this thread too long, you synthesize a response into a complete paragraph. (To meet me halfway here). That's how people begin to understand things.
i honestly don't understand what you're saying. i've tried asking you to define certain parts to understand, but you aren't answering the questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
If you were at all familiar with quantum mechanics, you would know about its subjective nature given that light behaves as both a wave and a particle. That duality (I like to call it a paradox) is at the physical limits for advancement in science, so probability is used (as 4D-thinking)
Here is a list of what you have so far represented as the fourth dimension at different points during this thread:

-time
-a synthesis of love/truth/god
-probability

do you understand how ****ing stupid this is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
to bridge this gap in describing nature. (This is also relevantly adopted by meteorologists who are coming to terms with chaos theory in weather predictions). When we go beyond this paradox, we get into purely theoretical grounds. You might escape this paradox by invoking super-strings and a many-worlds hypothesis (so to be physically "objective"), but I would say that that's an infinite reduction in itself, where as my hypothesis is more of a regression. What makes your reduction any better than my more-so regressive approach? Looking in retrospect (at history), we see that our understanding has come from a combination of both these techniques.
yeah you've lost me again. are you suggesting that because of quantum mechanics it seems as though some events are random? if so, ok. but i don't see how that supports any of the other crap you've been talking about.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:17   #43
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Re: G to the De-tox

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover

[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]


Quote:
what are you doing here then ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover
I thought my purpose statement was pretty clear. Go back and re-read it, since your question demonstrates the typical lack of understanding from the narrow-minded thinker who zeros in to the point of abstrusity. The true question is what are you doing here? That is, why are you trying to ignore the major thesis of my post by putting things in a negative view? If you have something to contribute, such as qualitative (or quantitative) information, please do so.

Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
ok, i dont debate on forums, especially this one, my spelling and punctuation skills are not up to it as anyone here who is anally retentive about that will inform you, and i dont wish to drive them insane ! (i actually play the game that theese forums are connected to)
But just for you i will try to make my point. (sorry guys).

You say that a virtual enviroment numbs the emotions
Quote:
*We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. *
surely theese forums are a virtual enviroment, you have no direct connection, no idea when the people writing are here.

Forums are a disconnection from real life interactions, a buffer between the writer and interaction with others, thats why they are so popular, what your saying is that places like this numb the emotional neurons in our brains, so why are you here numbing yours, why are you not out, doing this in real time ?

Why should it matter if i am athiest or not ?

Does no faith or belief in a higher power preclude the ability to have a reasoned discussion or debate, far from it, a closed mind is the only thing that does that !
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:30   #44
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Re: G to the De-tox

Quote:
If you were at all familiar with quantum mechanics, you would know about its subjective nature given that light behaves as both a wave and a particle. That duality (I like to call it a paradox) is at the physical limits for advancement in science, so probability is used (as 4D-thinking) to bridge this gap in describing nature. (This is also relevantly adopted by meteorologists who are coming to terms with chaos theory in weather predictions).
This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read in my life and shows you actually have barely any understanding of the concepts you mentioned.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:57   #45
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Re: G to the De-tox

The topic made me sad...ffs, Prover, kill your self :|
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:28   #46
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Re: G to the De-tox

I don't understand why people are humouring him. He's obviously mental.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:36   #47
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Re: G to the De-tox

I thought we were supposed to encourage new members, regardless of age race, mental compentance or if they're actually a real person?
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:38   #48
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Re: G to the De-tox

Even I have my limits.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:42   #49
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Re: G to the De-tox

15 and over.

am i rite
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 15:14   #50
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Re: G to the De-tox

I don't think mental quite covers it. I move we hereafter use the term "batshit insane".
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