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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 05:23   #1
Morutea
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Post My parents

Hello all,

It is my first post

I want your thoughts on this:
Do you feel that because your parents may have supported you when you were younger, that you "owe" it to them to support them now?


(Pay the bills they run up etc, just because they did it for you when you were younger and unable to work)


Thanks.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 05:45   #2
The General8
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Re: My parents

I would, i feel whatever my parents did and do for me know should be repayed in kind in the future, i will certainly do my best to make sure they do not end up in old folks homes.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 09:08   #3
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Re: My parents

I totally think that if your parents need your help, you should give it if you have the means, or even sometimes when you don't. After all, they're your parents, even if you don't get along they're still family, and as the old saying goes "blood is thicker than water".
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 11:16   #4
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Re: My parents

I help my Mummy tidy the house and bake the cakes.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 11:45   #5
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Re: My parents

Ban user.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 12:29   #6
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Re: My parents

A parent chooses to have a child. A child does not choose to have parents.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 13:23   #7
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Ban user.
No - it's a genuine user.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 13:53   #8
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No - it's a genuine user.
O rly?

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?p=...F-8&meta=vc%3D
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 14:25   #9
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Re: My parents

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
When I did a search last night nothing came up. You're right though, the key is that image that appears next to the thread on GD and the forums main page. If you look through the icons for the message you see that it's the first one that appears on the list and to be honest just screams bot.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 14:30   #10
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Re: My parents

You don't owe them anything. They had to take care of you until you were of legal age to leave. That's the law. There is not a law that states you have to pay them back.

On the other hand if you can afford to take care of them you would have to be a jerk not to. That does not mean that they should take advantage of you either. It's one thing to let them live with you and quite another to pay off their credit cards.

You should respect your parents.
Exodus 20:12
"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 14:47   #11
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Re: My parents

Ofc you owe it to your parents...they raised you,helped you, they done everything for you...what you can do for your parents is no match for what they done for you, so the least you can do is help them out in anyway you can e.g. give them cash....cant believe you would even ask such a question
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 17:30   #12
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Re: My parents

Why do people make bots to post stuff?
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 18:07   #13
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Speaking from a purely evolutionary stance, parents should merely be thankfull for having us. That way we preserve their genes and have the chance of taking over the species.

But since we are not ants that is a silly and evil way of looking at things.
It's also incorrect; there's no biological reason why an individual should have any interest in propagating its genes.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 18:30   #14
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It's also incorrect; there's no biological reason why an individual should have any interest in propagating its genes.

Im guessing this is to do with the word biological as opposed to physiological or something, regardless ive looked it up and i don't get it.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 19:37   #15
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
it's actually a journalist who's doing lazy research
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 20:07   #16
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Re: My parents

You should treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. If you have kids, would you like them to care for you after you've become unable to care for yourself fully?

"Owing" somebody something is completely dependant on your own perspective of the situation, unless you're completely unable to think for yourself and carry law journals around with you for constant reference that is.
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 20:24   #17
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
You should treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. If you have kids, would you like them to care for you after you've become unable to care for yourself fully?
I disagree, you are your parents burden, they have chosen for that, not the other way around
You can't treat your kids in a certain way only to expect something for yourself out of it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
"Owing" somebody something is completely dependant on your own perspective of the situation, unless you're completely unable to think for yourself and carry law journals around with you for constant reference that is.
What do you mean, everyone is expected to know the law
You sound like it's a bad thing to actually have some knowledge about your rights

If you arn't sure about something then the law is an easy reference of society's moral standards
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 22:05   #18
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Re: My parents

I'm amazed that people are taking this deep insightful question from a first time poster on a usually offbeat board seriously.

ps There's no need to hand hold your folks into old age by paying random stuff like credit cards - they're old enough to take responsibility for their own debts - but if they're in proper trouble then you'd have to be a right soulless git to not help along with essentials like bills.

pps 99% of postings with that icon are from bots
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Unread 22 Oct 2006, 22:47   #19
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Re: My parents

"Debt" is one way of describing the relationship one (might) hold with one's parents but I don't feel it's sufficient here (the implications are too calculating). It's more about what's reasonable to expect one person to do. Setting up a standing order to send your parents 200 a month to help pay with bills is one thing, having to quit your job to become a full-time carer is quite another.

Ultimately I'd like to help everyone out to the full extent possible, but under existing (or perhaps any) social arrangements that's impractical for various reasons. An imperfect principle then is to help those nearest or closest to you first and then those in greatest need generally.

As for paying my family bills if they couldn't pay them, sure - why not? But why did these bills arise? Will they be a regular thing? Do I have the income to support this long-term? If someone's outgoings are regularly exceeding their income then obviously there's a problem? Are they receiving the full pension / benefits they should be receiving?

I'd imagine increasingly common would be people selling their home when they reach a certian age (e.g. to pay for their care/medical treatments) or to "unlock the value of your home" sort of thing. While specific practices in this field might be dodgy, I see no problem in principle with it. The idea that you should expect to inherit your parents home when they die seems quite strange and one that may become less common. You may not "owe" your parents anything, but then don't expect them to leave you anything when they die.

Ultimately the treatment of the elderley is a question which will become of the utmost importance. Historically the numbers of old people seems to have been such that they were supportable by either families or welfare states or whatever. It's not clear given that both institutions are in decline (or transformation) how these things will be paid for (especially if increases in life expectancy continue).

Saying "Oh well, they brought it on themselves" (either socially or personally) about your parents/old seems slightly glib. If your parents are 70 years old they would have lived through social changes totally unpredictable in their youth. Perhaps they should have saved more money for retirement, or worked harder in their career so they don't need help from others when they get hold. But for those of us who aren't Nietzschean ubermenschen will probably realise they've made similar errors but would still want help from others from time to time.

Similarly, we're all partially responsible for how society develops but it's not like when in 2040 and you're afraid to leave your home because of the shoot outs between Crack++ dealers or the atmosphere is boiling away that you'll be able to completely to blame for what's happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BesigedB
I'm amazed that people are taking this deep insightful question from a first time poster on a usually offbeat board seriously.
Some of the best threads have started from shit first posts (and by even shittier posters). You could probably find some sort of random bot which auto-generated a question of the week for people to discuss (if people were so inclined).
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 07:07   #20
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Ultimately the treatment of the elderley is a question which will become of the utmost importance. Historically the numbers of old people seems to have been such that they were supportable by either families or welfare states or whatever. It's not clear given that both institutions are in decline (or transformation) how these things will be paid for (especially if increases in life expectancy continue).

Considering this from the pov of society; it always has been a question of upmost importance. The welfare state and government policies as far as im aware aren't constructed on a historical basis - ie you do whats best for you at this moment in time - there is no such thing as generational debt, especially if you're talking about something before i (or we) were born. WWII wasn't fought for our benefit, any 'debt' that may exist can only be taken from the point of our births, but even then im not sure why i 'owe' anyone of a certain age anything.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 10:32   #21
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Considering this from the pov of society; it always has been a question of upmost importance.
OK, but it'll be more important in the future.

Quote:
The welfare state and government policies as far as im aware aren't constructed on a historical basis - ie you do whats best for you at this moment in time - there is no such thing as generational debt, especially if you're talking about something before i (or we) were born. WWII wasn't fought for our benefit, any 'debt' that may exist can only be taken from the point of our births, but even then im not sure why i 'owe' anyone of a certain age anything.
Agreed, but I'm not sure you put this in a reply to me since I say I didn't support the idea of generational debt (which is why I also oppose inheritance or reparations for African Americans, etc).

Even if you did support the idea of "debt" to old people then it wouldn't really make sense to apply globally - would someone who moved to Britain from Germany in 1950 be "owed" anything from the British public?
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 11:40   #22
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
A parent chooses to have a child. A child does not choose to have parents.
Amen.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 11:53   #23
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Agreed, but I'm not sure you put this in a reply to me since I say I didn't support the idea of generational debt (which is why I also oppose inheritance or reparations for African Americans, etc).
sorry i read the begining of your post to quickly (debt is one way...)
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 12:18   #24
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
I disagree, you are your parents burden, they have chosen for that, not the other way around
You can't treat your kids in a certain way only to expect something for yourself out of it.
I didn't say that. I said you should treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. Perhaps my example confused things. When you walk down the street I guess you'd prefer not to be punched in the face. With that in mind, you shouldn't punch others in the face when they walk down the street. So if you'd like to be helped when you need help, you should also help others when they need help. This perpetuate the kind of world you'd like to live in.

I didn't say that you should return everything they've given you in full. It was their choice to do so. But their choice was also a good deed. And I believe you should repay that. Not because you 'have to', but because then good deeds perpetuate, as I indicated above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
What do you mean, everyone is expected to know the law
You sound like it's a bad thing to actually have some knowledge about your rights

If you arn't sure about something then the law is an easy reference of society's moral standards.
The original poster was asking whether he 'owed' his parents. The relationship between you and the ones who gave you life is a very personal one, perhaps the most personal. So, with this in mind, assessing whether you 'owe' your parents something should also be a personal decision. The law, reinforcing societal norms, is often a excellent source of reference, but in this case you have something stronger than that: a family bond. This is not to say you 'owe' them something--if they've been complete arseholes to you then there's a good argument that you should return the favour--but that decision lies with your wealth of personal experience and your own morals, not with a parliamentarian or judge who does not know all the ins and outs of your life.

I thought I put is more succinctly the first time.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 15:20   #25
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Have I ever told you how much I love it when people speak in headlines?

*pow'pow' Shoot-from-the-hip one-liner.
Very droll.
Well, do you personally care about the fate of your genes? Do you know anyone that does? I would be pretty surprised if someone who had kids told me they did so because they had a personal interest in the fate of their genetic material.

The fact that X is an indirect cause of people doing Y doesnt mean that they should have any interest in X.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 Oct 2006 at 15:27.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 15:48   #26
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The fact that X is an indirect cause of people doing Y doesnt mean that they should have any interest in X.
Arguably though, psychological traits which lead to wanting to propogate your genes (if genetically influenced themselves) could have been selected over time, but that's dubious. In either sense, people's motivation to have children is unlikely to be known to them.

I'm not really sure what people mean by "should" though (in this context). You should respect your parents seems an ethical statement (or command), "Individuals should want to propogate their genes" seems to be more of about prediction.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 23 Oct 2006 at 16:12.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 16:09   #27
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The welfare state and government policies as far as im aware aren't constructed on a historical basis - ie you do whats best for you at this moment in time - there is no such thing as generational debt, especially if you're talking about something before i (or we) were born.
This isnt true; the whole modern state pension scheme is built around people giving away their money and then demanding that the next generation supports them in their old age. When you pay taxes towards your state pension, the money isnt being put in a special fund to be given to you after retirement; it's being used to support old people now, and your kids will likewise be forced to support you (or more likely you wont see a penny of it because the whole thing will probably have come crashing down by the time you retire, but whatever)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Arguably though, psychological traits which lead to wanting to propogate your genes (if genetically influenced themselves) could have been selected over time, but that's dubious.
Most people dont want to propagate their genes, so they obviously havent. I doubt that attitudes towards having kids have changed significantly since Mendel; people always had a fascination with preserving their family name and suchlike.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 Oct 2006 at 16:24.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 16:24   #28
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Why do people make bots to post stuff?
It may not actually be a bot. I know when I have had projects to do and I’ve wanted insight ive cross posted over 15-20 forums the same thread in an attempt to get feedback I can use in the project. And Yahwe seems to think it’s a journalist.

And hey even if it is a bot at least it’s not trying to sell us something and instead has started a discussion. Hey if it means more discussion and activity on these forums I say “bring on the thread starting bots”

Now onto the actual topic I think it depends on the situation. As Yahwe states certainly in the UK it’s the parent choice to have a child, its not like birth control isn’t available or that abortion is illegal (although its possible that they could be forced into having a child they don’t want by religion and the archaic views most religions still practice by). Travler tells us that Exodus 20:12 tells us that we should honour our parents but the Exodus 20:12 is clearly wrong as making a choice is hardly something that deserves your respect. If your parents lock you under the stairs, beat you, verbal abuse you or other forums of mistreatment then they don’t deserve your respect or deserve you helping support them later in life and whoever wrote the line in Exodus 20:12 that indicates it’s a sin not to was clearly an ass.

However if they treat you well then they do deserve your respect and you probably should choose to help them out if they require some support later in life. Obviously it shouldn’t be at the expense of yourself or your immediate dependants but if you have the means to do so. A good set of parents gave up things to give us the best life growing up that they could and making some attempt to give back in any way we can is the least we can do
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 16:27   #29
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
As Yahwe states certainly in the UK it’s the parent choice to have a child
A lot of parents continue to support their child past the age of 16 (paying them through uni etc), which probably goes above and beyond whatever implicit contract you want to say that giving birth involves.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 16:43   #30
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Re: My parents

Could you give an example of what you mean by a person not being in control?
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 16:54   #31
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Re: My parents

I'd quite like to propagate my genetic material. I've always been quite fond of creation, in all wakes of life, and I can't think of anything more interesting to create than human life. I'd even say most people want to reproduce at a very fundamental level. I'm basing this on the fact at the most basic level your cells want to duplicate, and as you're basically a load of cell which can't duplicate anymore due to the restraints of the human form, you develop another mechanism to duplicate: reproduction.

Of course there are societal factors to take into account. You can't ignore the declining birth-rate across Europe, something that is said to be the result of a 'mature' civilisation sometimes. You can also look at the other end of the spectrum: in Africa women are said to have more babies because there's a lower survival rate; they can't take the survival of their offspring for granted, whereas in developed countries, we can.

If you want to relate this back to the original question, you could say that merely by being alive you've filled your part of the bargain. But then in my opinion society's not merely about being alive--it's about looking after one another so everyone ends up having an enjoyable life, another reason why you shouldn't dump your mother in a large ditch as soon as she admits she's having financial/physical difficulty.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 17:08   #32
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Re: My parents

Just because someone created you does not mean they 'own' you. I believe in ones individuality and right to choose their own path in life.

While it is undeniably true that without the support of your parents you would not be where you are now. However this comes mostly down to a duty of care, it would be negelectful for a parent to do otherwise.

We already have plenty of ways of displaying our appreciation throughout life, mothers & fathers day no less. Your undying love and gratitude should be just reward enough.

You did not spend half your life growing up and becoming a responsible adult to spend the other half caring for someone that has already lived their life in full. You have your own life to get on with too. Maybe this will include propagating children of your own, caring for them in the same way so that they may live their life in full, that's how life works.

Most full grown adults, assuming their parents are even still alive have moved away from home into new areas that limits their ability to maintain contact with their parents on a regular basis. I doubt most of them even consider the welfare of their parents except on special occasions that are traditionaly family orientated (christmas. weddings etc). Some of the more devout people may even phone their parents of a weekend and maintain regular contact, but ultimately they are glad to be independant and living a life away from their parents.

These are just my thoughts on the issue as they've streamed from my mind. I can relate to this one because I am presently dealing with a mother that can't let go of the fact her child is all grown up and independant of her now.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 17:09   #33
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Re: My parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Most people dont want to propagate their genes, so they obviously havent.
I guess this was your original point but just because someone doesn't know they want to do something doesn't mean they're not trying to do it. They may not put it in those terms but I don't see why that would be important. You could say "People in general seek self-actualisation" on Maslow's heirarchy but very few people would actually think that.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 09:48   #34
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Re: My parents

There are some circumstances when parents do not deserve your respect or your love (abuse etc).

But thats the point, if the parent or parents respected and loved the child, then most of the time the child will respect and love the parent or parents.

When this happens its not duty that guides to aid the parent or parents in their years of need.

Some parent or parents do not want this, they are people too, and should have their wants and feelings respected, however there are some points at which the child is not the best person to care for him/her/them (altzheimers, parkinsons, etc) and profesional care after a point in time is the best for all concerned.

And .. after all .. there are nice people and nasty people in this world, people you love and people you hate, you will automatically love and care for them if thats the way you are.There are also selfish people who take and not return.
Its not duty, its personal human nature, and that cannot be changed or forced.
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