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Unread 28 Jan 2008, 20:13   #1
dda
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What is a Liberal?

What is a Liberal?

By this I do not mean what is the Liberal Party all about in any country. In the U. S. we do not have a Liberal Party, yet we are always labeling people as "liberal" or "conservative" or "middle-of-the-road." This would be roughly the same of saying "left-of-center", "right-of-center" and "centerists."

What I am interested in is what qualities or positions are what one could truly describe as liberal or conservative or whatever.

In the U. S. we break it down even further by talking of "social conservatives" or "fiscal liberals" (or vice versa).

People who are against abortion, against gay marriage, etc. are considered "social conservatives." The converse defines "social liberals" though I have never heard that term articulated. I am not sure what a centerist position would be on such issues.

People who believe that the government needs additional funds in order to expand various programs are "fiscal liberals" while those who wish to limit the money given to government are considered "fiscal conservatives."

I personally tend to take a live-and-let-live attitude toward most social issues. If someone feels comfortable having an abortion, that is their business. If two people fall in love and want the sanction of the state to solemnize the union, I don't much care what the sexual composition of those two individuals is.

On fiscal matters, I tend to be more conservative. I think that the more money we give to government, the larger and more intrusive government gets, to me a bad thing.

If I were to run for political office in the U. S. I would be villified by both sides. Does this mean I am center-of-the road?

What do you think are the issues that define whether a person is liberal-conservative?
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Unread 28 Jan 2008, 20:46   #2
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
What is a Liberal?

By this I do not mean what is the Liberal Party all about in any country. In the U. S. we do not have a Liberal Party, yet we are always labeling people as "liberal" or "conservative" or "middle-of-the-road." This would be roughly the same of saying "left-of-center", "right-of-center" and "centerists."

What I am interested in is what qualities or positions are what one could truly describe as liberal or conservative or whatever.

In the U. S. we break it down even further by talking of "social conservatives" or "fiscal liberals" (or vice versa).

People who are against abortion, against gay marriage, etc. are considered "social conservatives." The converse defines "social liberals" though I have never heard that term articulated. I am not sure what a centerist position would be on such issues.

People who believe that the government needs additional funds in order to expand various programs are "fiscal liberals" while those who wish to limit the money given to government are considered "fiscal conservatives."

I personally tend to take a live-and-let-live attitude toward most social issues. If someone feels comfortable having an abortion, that is their business. If two people fall in love and want the sanction of the state to solemnize the union, I don't much care what the sexual composition of those two individuals is.

On fiscal matters, I tend to be more conservative. I think that the more money we give to government, the larger and more intrusive government gets, to me a bad thing.

If I were to run for political office in the U. S. I would be villified by both sides. Does this mean I am center-of-the road?

What do you think are the issues that define whether a person is liberal-conservative?
you are clearly a liberal.

It's true that the US system makes it hard to see. Yet twas your tom jefferson who pointed out that party politics is bad because it is divisive.

both democrat and republican core values have elements of liberalism (crudely - the dems are liberal on individual rights, the reps are liberal on control of government interference)

What i find more fascinating is why blatently liberal republicans will use the word 'liberal' to insult democratic opponents. With liberalism spread across both parties it seems hidden from view and the word liberal is now a pointless insult or "curse word" in a political system based more on tribalism than ideas
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Unread 28 Jan 2008, 21:13   #3
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Someone who is socially liberal is someone who believes in the preservation of rights and liberties of the individual and believes in restraints on the state in order to prevent it encroaching on the liberties of individuals, surely?

Someone who is economically liberal is basically a filthy capitalist.

Also I find it absurd that your politicians use the term "liberal" as an insult, liberalism is, if anything, good. You silly yanks also seem to be missing half of the political spectrum as Socialism is more "left wing" than liberalism, despite the fact that political views should be on a graph with 2 axes as opposed to a line due to differences in economic and social views etc. and so forth.
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Unread 28 Jan 2008, 22:38   #4
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Re: What is a Liberal?

I used to frequent a forum that was made up mostly of Americans. Whenever a slightly political discussion came up the Americans would start calling people liberals as if it was an insult. I always found that a tad odd.
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Unread 28 Jan 2008, 23:29   #5
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Well I know you have patriots on one side and communists on the other..

I dont really see where libidals are supposed to fit in that picture..

I'm pretty sure they symphatise with al qaida tho.. both with the anti-American attitude

When Bush asked: are you with us or against us? the liberals clearly didnt chose our side

How much more obvious can it get?
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Last edited by Alessio; 28 Jan 2008 at 23:48.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 01:20   #6
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Re: What is a Liberal?

If you take more then just Republicans and Democrats into account then Liberalism wouldn't be 'left' and Conservativism wouldn't be 'right'. The terms economic liberal and economic conservative are only opposites if you oversimplified the political spectrum into one dimension to fit the American model. Political matrices however tend to be two dimensional.

Liberalism strives to as much personal freedom and economical freedom as possible, while recognizing the need of some sort of goverment. Conservativism aims for a more traditional society, so with less social/personal freedoms, but they also hold economical freedom in (the same) high regard. So liberals and convervatives in the traditional sense both tend to perceive levelling incomes and building a huge social state as counterproductive.

The textbook answer would be that the difference between liberals and conservatives are purely between social/personal freedoms and actually have nothing to do with economic freedoms.

Democrats however, tend lean a bit towards the left on economical issues (towards Progressivism) then Republicans, which moves them a bit away from true Liberalism. I do believe both parties are about equally as far away from true liberalism, as they are both liberal in different aspects.

It's easy to argue that they are both quite liberal, as both parties seem pretty close to eachother compared to mainland European political parties. Both Democrats and Republicans are quite far towards the right. Democrats and Republicans are actually both so far to the right that they have no Dutch equilivant.

Depending on what you use as a reference they could end up like *this* in a political matrix.
I'm not sure if I answered your question with this, as what I said seems a bit basic high school material to me. I almost feel silly for posting it.
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Last edited by Alessio; 29 Jan 2008 at 02:13.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 02:23   #7
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Re: What is a Liberal?

I will avoid the obvious response of "Don't feel silly for this post, you have so many other posts worthy of that feeling."

I really am interested in what others think about what constitutes a liberal because in my country it seems rather an odd definition.

To me the key to Liberalism was the concept of accellerated change socially. Getting rid of slavery was a liberal concept. Getting rid of segregation was a liberal idea. However, somewhere along the line the concept morphed into one of power and economics. Liberal spending and liberal interpretation of the power of government.

It is at a point where those who wish to controll the size of government are considered conservative because they resist the growth of government. In the U. S. there seems to be a move toward larger government in order to have government address the percieved injustices in society.

However, government creates more injustices than it cures in many respects. American Liberals are usually pushing things like socialized medicine which, in many respects, impinges upon the rights of individuals.

I was just wondering if concepts were as muddled in other places.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 02:42   #8
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Well, Liberalism isn't really about social change. As the name Liberalism implies (liber means free) it's mainly about freedom, personal and economical. The economic freedom of the Republicans and the personal/social freedom of the Democrats. It tries to create equal chances by making sure everyone carries his own responsibility.

Liberals believe that the goverment, or other people for that matter, shouldn't dictate our lives; everyone knows what best for himself. Free from oppression. This means that everyone should have the liberty to live his life as he wants. Everyone can have abortions, become a Buddist, live like a bum or can try to become the next president if you wish.

High taxes and financial redistribution actually limit a persons (economical) freedom, you cannot take a person's property and you can't have a person carry someone elses burden, thus it's against the liberal principles. True Liberals also often claim, as believers in the free market, that when the goverment takes money it proberbly won't be invested to generate more goods or wealth. Everyone with a govermental job or who lives on social welfare actually just consumes and produces nothing. And in other cases the money will atleast be taken out of circulation for some time, in which it won't be spend or invested. This means it actually destroys the wealth growth, eventually resulting in doing more damage to the people you are trying to help then good.

I really don't think aiming for a large goverment is a very liberal idea dda. According the Liberal ideologie true equality and freedom can only be achieved by a small goverment. A large goverment puts a heavy burden on people's economic freedom and, as you said, a larger goverment also becomes more intrusive, at the cost of personal freedom.

Quote:
In the U. S. there seems to be a move toward larger government in order to have government address the percieved injustices in society.
European Socialism and Progressivism could have influenced American politics a bit. But no matter what they say or how they call it, it just becomes less Liberal.
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Last edited by Alessio; 29 Jan 2008 at 14:34.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 02:42   #9
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
American Liberals are usually pushing things like socialized medicine which, in many respects, impinges upon the rights of individuals.
They're possibly not true liberals then. Are you still using the word 'Liberal' with the bogus American definition? Either way I don't think it's ever been well-defined what a Liberal actually is, and because of that we've seen the growth of Libertarians who are probably different in some eccentric way.


My own personal attitude is that where possible, the market should be left to its own accord to fix problems. But it can't always do that - just look at the failures in healthcare and education. This is based on what I believe to be some absolute human rights that you may not agree are such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I believe that the State exists to do what individuals cannot do themselves. It is not there to run things for the sake of running them, not should it try to. What the State is able to do is to right the wrongs that individuals have created. Where individuals (and their businesses) cannot be trusted to do things properly, the State regulates. Two examples of this - environmental regulation and competition law. Environmental regulation is necessary because otherwise, in an effort to save costs, companies will pollute. Competition law is necessary because otherwise business practices will evolve to restrain newcomers from entering the market - in other words, cartels. Furthermore, predator monopolies will kill off new entrants to the market. This is not acceptable because it results in economic inefficiency. However, when not righting these wrongs, the State should step back and let people get on with it.

Nevertheless the State is also needed to provide a safety net for those that cannot provide for themselves. There are fundamental human needs that the market itself cover completely, because businesses require a profit and those who already cannot provide for themselves cannot supply that profit. For example, I believe that no-one should suffer or die from an illness, disease or condition that is curable. We have seen in America that the market cannot provide a solution; too many people fall through the gaps (16% of Americans do not have health insurance). No-one should be in the situation where they know that a cure exists, but they cannot afford it. If you have a condition that is easily treatable in the present, it should be treated no matter what your means - and certainly shouldn't be allowed to worsen until you qualify for free treatment.

There are similar situations regarding housing, education, policing and the military, among other things.


Critically, the State's safety net is just that - the provision of the most basic needs. If you wish to have superior quality treatment, you should pay for it. Private hospitals, and the use of them through medical insurance, should be encouraged. Private schools are a result of the market, but anyone who attends a state school should still receive a complete academic education. The same can be said for just about every other issue, where the market does not result in an unhappy perversion. For example, net neutrality is vital because otherwise the telecommunications market will close itself off to new entrants.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 13:15   #10
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Exclamation Re: What is a Liberal?

'New' Liberalism/Classical Liberalism.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 15:22   #11
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
People who are against abortion, against gay marriage, etc. are considered "social conservatives." The converse defines "social liberals" though I have never heard that term articulated. I am not sure what a centerist position would be on such issues.
A centrist, which i think i am probably (reasonably social liberal, quite economically conservative given my field, generally indifferent to the power and scope of government provided it doesnt clash with the above), would approach these issues with some even-handedness. For example, a "social conservative" would never advocate abortion, and critique a social liberal for defying/denying the rights of the unborn child. A centrist would suggest that unnecessary abortion should be (at best*) advocated against or (at worst) forbidden, with a definition of "necessary" including the health of the mother (if it endangers the mother, abortion is an option), whether the child is a spawn of rape (the denial of the female's basic human right to chose with whom to reproduce), and the prohibition on late term abortion (eg, the third trimester, by which point either of the above should have become apparent) or something along those lines. Thus, a centrist would, in most instances, be against abortion - particularly if it will soon be summer and that being pregnant doesnt do well for a figure in a bikini on Bondi or some other "useless" reason - however, is not completely against the notion of killing an unborn child. Similarly, no Centrist would have any objection to the use of any contraceptives.

Centrist views on marriage would probably focus on the legal status that such a union provides to people in today's society, rather than focusing on "morality" with the presumption that marriage exists only to procreate within a stable household with the idea that stability leads to superior results for the child, maximising their success in later life (which it, apparently, does - whether that is due to biological, psychological, social and/or economic issues i dont recall/unsure about). A social conservative would see that children is the ultimate purpose of marriage, and believe that children born of marriage do better, thus see marriage as necessity for having children. A liberal would be more concerned about the state of such a marriage - if it had already "broken down", then its not too hard to imagine that any psychological/social/economic etc benefits that could be expected of marriage may not exist anyway, and indeed provide a negative atmosphere for the child thus being detrimental. A social liberal might see the right of parents to persue what they know best for their children, based on physiological instincts of those children to want the best for their children. As such, parents should have all the power over whom they choose to help raise their child, and see marriage as a pledge of commitment that may not necessarily be beneficial or warranted. A centrist would note that both sides have merit, but irrespective of this, marriage as a legal entity wrt property rights should one or both die, the legal "legitimacy"** of a child is important for the Estate of the parents to go to supporting the child/ren. Further, more mundane things such as access to banking and other financial details, civil documents like birth certificates, drivers licenses, health and other insurance forms/documents, all the way through to registered post - all of these institutions of society and economy are predisposed to assuming either a single adult, or a married couple, with access restricted to those groups. Thus, if you are not married, it is far/more difficult to gain access to "critical" documents that both of you share. Irrespective of whether a couple is gay or straight, that single presumption necessitates that in order to become a legally effective unit within society, marriage should be for all. Besides, why cant two fathers/mothers be any more or less effective, efficient, compassionate or proud of any children that they bring up? There are plenty of failed male/female relationships out there - why not let gays fail too?



*depending on scope of centralism, i suppose.
**when the hell is a child who is born not legitimate, insofar as they are a living breathing individual with dreams, aspirations and ability? This social construct i rail against, as it seems to serve no beneficial purpose - merely used as a tool to stigmatise the unfortunate (who, after all, had no say in the matter originally).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
People who believe that the government needs additional funds in order to expand various programs are "fiscal liberals" while those who wish to limit the money given to government are considered "fiscal conservatives."
I'm not quite sure about that. I think liberalism in the terms of government power and influence is more about the limitiation of government control on the individual so that they are free to persue their own desires (ie, liberalism). Whilst its true, leftist tendencies support big government, that is a different thing to liberalism. I think the Whig party in Britain before the American Revolution espoused the principles of liberalism wrt government, ideas which i think Furball expressed above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
On fiscal matters, I tend to be more conservative. I think that the more money we give to government, the larger and more intrusive government gets, to me a bad thing.
I personally dont have much concern about the government having my personal information or other forms of privacy. I still believe that compared to banks and/or insurance companies, the government are still amateurs. Nevertheless, due to my strong economic conservatism, i still see that the role of governments to be simplified to correcting market failures (including provisions for public goods like defence), as well as providing basic services for a fee. The fee doesnt have to be large, but it is necessary to prevent complete free riding. Overarching all government activities, however, should be the concept of "common sense" - if it makes sense for a government agency to do xyz rather than privately, then do so; to avoid unnecessarily sticking to some ideological dogma (of small government), governments should not be afraid to act to a perceived injustice or inequity that is not reflective of the society that makes it up. If children are dying, then act.

I think i differ to most americans (and europeans) insofar as dont have any problem at all with government compulsion - insofar as i think its fine and a good thing for compulsory voting, compulsory (basic, ie up to Senior school) education, emergency health care, compulsory inoculation of common communicable diseases, and similar things. I dont care whether some government pe0n is searching through my emails, looking at my forum posts and so on - mainly because i know they'd be bored absolutely stiff from the shit that drivels out of my mouth. And on that note, i'll finish.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 19:04   #12
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
A centrist, which i think i am probably (reasonably social liberal, quite economically conservative given my field, generally indifferent to the power and scope of government provided it doesnt clash with the above), would approach these issues with some even-handedness. For example, a "social conservative" would never advocate abortion, and critique a social liberal for defying/denying the rights of the unborn child. A centrist would suggest that unnecessary abortion should be (at best*) advocated against or (at worst) forbidden, with a definition of "necessary" including the health of the mother (if it endangers the mother, abortion is an option), whether the child is a spawn of rape (the denial of the female's basic human right to chose with whom to reproduce), and the prohibition on late term abortion (eg, the third trimester, by which point either of the above should have become apparent) or something along those lines. Thus, a centrist would, in most instances, be against abortion - particularly if it will soon be summer and that being pregnant doesnt do well for a figure in a bikini on Bondi or some other "useless" reason - however, is not completely against the notion of killing an unborn child. Similarly, no Centrist would have any objection to the use of any contraceptives.
You seem to be labouring under the belief that there are only three types of people (liberals, conservatives and centrists) and that they all believe the same things.

Some liberals are against abortion.
Some centrists are completely for or completely against abortion.
Some conservatives are in favour of abortion.


Also, PARAGRAPHS. Personally I hate seeing more than 200 words in a single block of text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I'm not quite sure about that. I think liberalism in the terms of government power and influence is more about the limitiation of government control on the individual so that they are free to persue their own desires (ie, liberalism). Whilst its true, leftist tendencies support big government, that is a different thing to liberalism. I think the Whig party in Britain before the American Revolution espoused the principles of liberalism wrt government, ideas which i think Furball expressed above.
I'll emphasise again for dda's benefit:

Quote:
I think liberalism in the terms of government power and influence is more about the limitiation of government control on the individual so that they are free to persue their own desires (ie, liberalism). Whilst its true, leftist tendencies support big government, that is a different thing to liberalism.

This is the crux of the American 'liberal' issue.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I think i differ to most americans (and europeans) insofar as dont have any problem at all with government compulsion
Oh no. Both countries have plenty of people who believe wholeheartedly in the principle that "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". Of course, this is total bullshit.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 21:58   #13
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Also, PARAGRAPHS. Personally I hate seeing more than 200 words in a single block of text
he can't use commas either but he's still coming across as brighter than you
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 21:58   #14
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Re: What is a Liberal?

I wouldn't worry about it, personally. You'll never have to vote for one.*


*not quite so extreme right wing doesn't count!
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 23:30   #15
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
You seem to be labouring under the belief that there are only three types of people (liberals, conservatives and centrists) and that they all believe the same things.
Well, no. I know that people dont always fit into these stereotypes, and that stereotypes fit some people better than others. However, i figured that at least for the purposes of this discussion, there was the assumption/presumption that at there were at least three broad definitions of people given a set of beliefs, and that most within that group would hold to be that group's main tenants to be true, else they wouldnt be part of that group. Of course they'll be outliers, of course there will be dissent. I was being more general in my descriptions. I was alluding to this with my first "*" comment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Also, PARAGRAPHS. Personally I hate seeing more than 200 words in a single block of text
What is this?!?! has GD suddenly become Grammatical Discussions?!

Quote:
Oh no. Both countries have plenty of people who believe wholeheartedly in the principle that "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". Of course, this is total bullshit.
Bullshit why? Also, given the framework that i believed governments should have as their foundation (primarily economic, tempered with common sense), they essentially shouldnt care what's going on. Even if they did, why is it "total bullshit"? I can make guesses, but why not elaborate to move this discussion on?
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 23:37   #16
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Bullshit why?
Because it is? Even on a purely pragmatic level, governments have been abusing their powers throughout history and increasing them (ala The Patriot Act) won't make things better.

Need I remind you that torture is very commonly used nowadays, is generally psychological (waterboarding) rather than physical so you can just do it endlessly and, after all, doesn't work. It's not if you have anything to hide that matters, it's whether the person who's torturing you thinks you have anything to hide. And if you're being tortured, you must do.
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 23:40   #17
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, no. I know that people dont always fit into these stereotypes, and that stereotypes fit some people better than others. However, i figured that at least for the purposes of this discussion, there was the assumption/presumption that at there were at least three broad definitions
no. definition is a rhetorical tool. a trick to win debates.

I think it is grossly unfair, not to mention silly, to presume that dda meant to create such an environment.

to put it bluntly, and this applies more to furball than to you, if you want to take part in a pissing contest then go piss

Sometimes people like to explore ideas outside of a debate.

I took the thread starting post as genuine in its curiosity
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 23:42   #18
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
governments have been abusing their powers throughout history and increasing them

Need I remind you that torture is very commonly used nowadays
2 points i single out.

please gods mark feel some shame
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Unread 29 Jan 2008, 23:46   #19
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
no. definition is a rhetorical tool. a trick to win debates.

I think it is grossly unfair, not to mention silly, to presume that dda meant to create such an environment.
Well, i dont know exactly what you mean by definitions. Perhaps that is one of your hate words, just as i dont like the word "youse" when refering to others. Nevertheless, it suficies insofar as i meant it .

This "environment" was originated by dda, i thought, as he raised the issue of liberal, conservative and centrist. I was merely exploring what a centrist may view as their opinion on the issues that dda raised, given that he was unsure about what a centrist position (something that i think i hold) would be in those areas.

Quote:
Sometimes people like to explore ideas outside of a debate.
Go for it - nothing i said prevents you from going there. Indeed, i gave it a go myself.

Quote:
I took the thread starting post as genuine in its curiosity
Who didnt?
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Unread 31 Jan 2008, 00:11   #20
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Re: What is a Liberal?

I can see that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are rather on end compared to the way some look at them.

In America "liberal" seems to be a liberal use of government power. One of the interesting things is that "liberals" in America tend to espouse freedom of speech as an ideal. However, they then do everything they can to shout down or intimidate any who use that freedom to disagree with them.

In America, "Liberal" does not seem to have much to do with liberty.

"Libertarian" is a new term. It seems to, in many ways, have supplanted the term "Libertine."
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Unread 31 Jan 2008, 02:26   #21
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Re: What is a Liberal?

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
2 points i single out.

please gods mark feel some shame
The best systems are those that resist abuse. It doesn't have to be cameras in everyones bedrooms to be an abuse, it could be (say) not allowing an open tendering process for a public contract, or undeclared conflicts of interests or other such forms of corruption that occur in our current government from the local councillor right to the Cash for Honours scandal and the PM. I'm sorry if you feel these things are acceptable.
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Unread 31 Jan 2008, 03:10   #22
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I can see that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are rather on end compared to the way some look at them.

In America "liberal" seems to be a liberal use of government power. One of the interesting things is that "liberals" in America tend to espouse freedom of speech as an ideal. However, they then do everything they can to shout down or intimidate any who use that freedom to disagree with them.

In America, "Liberal" does not seem to have much to do with liberty.
I think its a mistake to look for ideological coherence when it comes to mainstream politics, or to try and investigate the essence of liberalism or conservatism in the context of major political parties (whether in the UK or the USA). Modern political parties are based on pragmatism rather than principles; the ultimate aim of most parties and politicians is to get elected, with the question of what they will do when they get there relegated to secondary status. Because there are generally two parties competiting for power at any given time, the standard result is that political positions get distilled into two extremely simplistic binary alternatives, with each of the major parties eventually being associated with one 'side' of the issue.

The question of which team ends up on which side of the debate is often arbitrary; theres no logical reason why people who (eg) support abortion rights should also support gun control and increased taxes on the wealthy, and the fact that these positions now go together under the banner of 'liberalism'/'progressivism' is a result of historical contingency rather than because theres any unifying principle linking them (gun control is an especially interesting case; during the early 20th century, it was the 'right' who supported gun control in the UK while the 'left' opposed it, since they believed that the government was using gun control to decrease the problems caused by militant trade unionists. Nowadays, this same argument that guns provide a line of defence against oppressive government is used by those on the 'right', and mocked by those on the 'left'). Mainstream political positions are generally an assortment of barely related single-issues, bundled into un-unified wholes and consumed as ready-maked packages. The only place youre likely to find attempts at ideological coherence are on the 'fringes' of politics, where there is less focus on pragmatism since getting elected isnt such a primary concern (normally because it isnt likely to happen).


This unrelenting pragmatism is reflected in the electorate, with most people choosing their issue-positions based either on party lines (the Democrats oppose gun control, I am a Democrat, ergo I should oppose gun control), or based on the unprincipled short-term pragmatism which is pretty much the defining aspect of modern middle-class 'liberalism', which centres around the belief that "as long as something doesnt adversely affect me in the short-term, who cares?". The short-sightedness of the middle classes towards anything which doesnt directly impinge on their day-to-day lives, and the associated refusal to think in principles or consider bigger pictures, is imo responsible for a huge amount of shitty political practices over the last 100 years and was nicely summed up by Ultimate Newbie earlier in the thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I personally dont have much concern about the government having my personal information or other forms of privacy. I still believe that compared to banks and/or insurance companies, the government are still amateurs. Nevertheless, due to my strong economic conservatism, i still see that the role of governments to be simplified to correcting market failures (including provisions for public goods like defence), as well as providing basic services for a fee. The fee doesnt have to be large, but it is necessary to prevent complete free riding. Overarching all government activities, however, should be the concept of "common sense" - if it makes sense for a government agency to do xyz rather than privately, then do so; to avoid unnecessarily sticking to some ideological dogma (of small government), governments should not be afraid to act to a perceived injustice or inequity that is not reflective of the society that makes it up. If children are dying, then act.
The debates over the recent smoking bans are also a really great example of this kind of short-sighted pragmatism too, since pretty much every discussion about it eventually ended up as "I want to be able to smoke in pubs" vs "I would enjoy my nights out more if people didnt smoke".

Last edited by Nodrog; 31 Jan 2008 at 04:08.
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Unread 1 Feb 2008, 11:37   #23
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This unrelenting pragmatism is reflected in the electorate ... based on the unprincipled short-term pragmatism which is pretty much the defining aspect of modern middle-class 'liberalism', which centres around the belief that "as long as something doesnt adversely affect me in the short-term, who cares?". The short-sightedness of the middle classes towards anything which doesnt directly impinge on their day-to-day lives, and the associated refusal to think in principles or consider bigger pictures, is imo responsible for a huge amount of shitty political practices over the last 100 years and was nicely summed up by Ultimate Newbie earlier in the thread:
Its true, i pretty dont much care about what counts as "political news" for virtually all of the media cycle these days. So much is made of absolutely nothing at all, that its not unreasonable to be apathetic towards most of the comments that politicians make or do virtually all the time. However, having re-read that part of my post, i think i might have come across as too disinterested. Personally, i dont have much interest in most things, particularly social programmes that arent really or wont be felt by widespread areas of the communities (and thus, is easy for me to dismiss as irrelevent or unimportant to me and what i perceive to be the direction of Australia). Things like saying "Sorry" to the stolen generation, Aboriginal Land Rights issues, and so on, i dont think are overly important - though i recognise that many others think they might be. What i do really care about is the economy, and government programmes and etc that impact on the economy, including things such as health, education, IP and industrial relations law, macroecomic mangement, microeconomic reform and telecommunications. These issues are extremely important for a modern mixed economy like australia, and where mindless stupidity and political meddling to get elected really concern me. So its not that i dont care, its that i'm more selective to what I care about, and even then most of those issues arent (directly) selfish.

I took your post to be critical of what i said earlier.

I agreed with much/most of what you said prior though.
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Unread 1 Feb 2008, 13:55   #24
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
even then most of those issues arent (directly) selfish.
How does this do anything but fully support the post you are quoting?
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Unread 2 Feb 2008, 09:03   #25
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
How does this do anything but fully support the post you are quoting?
Well, i understood that the post i was quoting was effectively saying that people only care about things that directly impact upon them in the short term. I said that i cared about things that actually mattered for the greater whole, of which i was an insignificant part and thus only indirectly benefited from my own concen.

Thus, essentially what i said was more or less the direct opposite to what nodrog said, and as such it wouldnt actually "fully support" his post at all?

Did i misunderestimate something around here??
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Unread 2 Feb 2008, 18:23   #26
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, i understood that the post i was quoting was effectively saying that people only care about things that directly impact upon them in the short term. I said that i cared about things that actually mattered for the greater whole, of which i was an insignificant part and thus only indirectly benefited from my own concen.

Thus, essentially what i said was more or less the direct opposite to what nodrog said, and as such it wouldnt actually "fully support" his post at all?

Did i misunderestimate something around here??
Conveiniantly it just so happens that pretty much everything you support in the name of the 'greater whole' also benefits yourself?

There was a documentary on the BBC called 'The Tower'. It shows the redevelopment of an area of London, which is poor. A block of council flats were sold off and all the tenants were kicked out. It is being redeveloped into luxury flats for rich people.

The development of these flats is not going to help the people because it's done by rich people, for rich people, with the proceeds going to rich people. Eventually the whole area will be redeveloped into a middle class suburbia. The likely result is that all the people who lived there originally shall be relocated into other areas which we shall politely refer to as 'slums'.

So the rich get some nice new homes and the poor get moved along from one slum to another. The likely result of this is greater overcrowding of homes with less choice for some of the most needy in society, some who will be forced to take homes that are completely inadaquate for their needs.

The documentary caught a discussion between three women whose job it is to sell these flats to the rich yuppies from Canary Wharf. One of the women said something along the following lines.

"the local residents will be pleased to see people investing in their community."

Never underestimate the ability of people to believe anything that makes them feel better about their actions, no matter how unlikely it is to be true.
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Unread 3 Feb 2008, 09:09   #27
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Conveiniantly it just so happens that pretty much everything you support in the name of the 'greater whole' also benefits yourself?
I'm not sure that its convenient, i think its the point - if something doesnt benefit everyone, at least indirectly, why is it being done? Government schools and associated investment in education are beneficial to the country and its economy as a whole. However, education is quite easily done in the private sector using markets - so why should governments intervene? Because its in the best interests of all, including/especially those who cannot otherwise afford school fees. However, i was tought in a private school, but i still benefit from public education due to the thousands of teachers, engineers, doctors, scientists, lawyers, economists, plumbers, brickies, electricians and etc that were all brought up through the public education system, whom i benefit from either directly through hired service, or indirectly through their function in society and the economy.

Mass relocation of peasants to make way for luxury apartments makes a good story and invokes all the right responses. However, from what i understand london council estates to be, i was under the impression that they were slums already.
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Unread 3 Feb 2008, 17:51   #28
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I'm not sure that its convenient, i think its the point - if something doesnt benefit everyone, at least indirectly, why is it being done?
Apart from that being a completely flawed arguement,* it is also wrong. Over the past 30 years there has been a concerted effort to deconstruct the welfare state. When cuts in in the welfare state are made, who do you think benefits? Does cutting the level of unemployment benefit to fund a tax cut on the very rich benefit everyone?

*everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds

The idea of trickle down economics is plain wrong. Unsurprisingly, it is being advocated by those who benefit the most. The intellectual justification that the increased prosperity of the rich will eventually 'trickle down' to the poorer people has been shown to be a load of nonsense. Yet it is still advocated by those who can afford to remove themselves from society which continues to decay (at a fster rate) as a direct result of their dogmatic self-justification for self-enriching policies.

Quote:
Government schools and associated investment in education are beneficial to the country and its economy as a whole.
The education system maintains the staus quo. In an irrational system it is still possible to act rationally. Getting an education can help you to get a better job and may help the economy but these are very narrow aims and should not be what an education system is about. There is no attempt to develop emotionally secure, well-rounded human beings with an ability to think critically. The main purpose is to mould children into a mediocrity or to implant a mindset of 'the establishment' or at least to crush an impulse to question authority or to reject what is being taught.

The education system does not work for the benefit of the poor. Any benefits to them are purely coincidental.

Quote:
However, education is quite easily done in the private sector using markets - so why should governments intervene? Because its in the best interests of all, including/especially those who cannot otherwise afford school fees.
Well, apart from answering your own question you seem to be missing the most obvious effect of going to a publich school. It reinforces the class system. The chances of you going to a secondary school and reaching the upen echelons of political power, for example a virtually zero. The whole system breeds inequality of oppertunity.

Quote:
However, i was tought in a private school, but i still benefit from public education due to the thousands of teachers, engineers, doctors, scientists, lawyers, economists, plumbers, brickies, electricians and etc that were all brought up through the public education system, whom i benefit from either directly through hired service, or indirectly through their function in society and the economy.
The education system does not work for the benefit of the poor. Any benefits to them are purely coincidental.

Quote:
Mass relocation of peasants to make way for luxury apartments makes a good story and invokes all the right responses. However, from what i understand london council estates to be, i was under the impression that they were slums already.
Oh yes, I do apologise perhaps 'slum' was not the right word. I was trying to convey the fact that these areas are already falling apart and that the concentration of more poor people into smaller, more concentrated areas (which is a direct result of this redevelopment) would make life for the poor worse, rather than better.

I should have said 'ghettos'.
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Unread 3 Feb 2008, 21:31   #29
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Re: What is a Liberal?

I`ve rather enjoyed reading this thread :-)
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Unread 4 Feb 2008, 13:18   #30
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Apart from that being a completely flawed arguement,* it is also wrong. Over the past 30 years there has been a concerted effort to deconstruct the welfare state. When cuts in in the welfare state are made, who do you think benefits? Does cutting the level of unemployment benefit to fund a tax cut on the very rich benefit everyone?
Cuts to the "welfare state" have in many respects improved the economy in Australia, and benefits many people. I acknowledge that its probable that more "rich" people benefited and more "poor" people were worse off, by and large "middle australia*" has improve in leaps and bounds after shedding bureaucratic bollocks and benefiting from a period of economic growth where virtually everyone who is looking for work can find it. I have four jobs, studying my Honours at Uni - and WA's unemployment rate is about 2% with ~4.5% nationally. I believe that there is more benefit for people having a job than being a "dole bludger", and not only because of the way it affects the state's finances; quite a bit of research shows that being unemployed for long periods is psychologically damaging. Welfare states that Europe has seems to prolong and increase the proportion of long-term unemployed, presumably leading to more psychological damage to less employable people (which are usually the poorest people with the least skills, and/or people who are somehow unfit for normal work, neither of whom can afford anything resembling proper psychological treatment).

All that aside, the argument that reduced spending on social welfare immediately and only benefits the rich through a tax cut clearly doesnt follow. If anything, in Australia, social welfare is still too high, with "middle class welfare" being the means for considerable electoral success for the previous commonwealth government - "sorting out" that kind of crap needs to be done, imo, as its a waste of money. Welfare should go to those who need it, not to those whose votes need buying.

*unlike britain, middle australia is a huge proportion of the population due to being more or less un-stratified (at worst, there are three rough classes based on wealth, not birth).

Quote:
The idea of trickle down economics is plain wrong.
It is, and it isnt. There wasnt all that much success in India in the late 70's and 80's, but in other instances where the limitiations of such a policy were well known and used in a proper framework which sought to minimise harm from such a policy (ie, doing it "right"), has helped other economies quite a bit. iirc, New Zealand experienced this in the late 80's to mid 90's. I might need to go check that.

Quote:
The intellectual justification that the increased prosperity of the rich will eventually 'trickle down' to the poorer people has been shown to be a load of nonsense. Yet it is still advocated by those who can afford to remove themselves from society which continues to decay (at a fster rate) as a direct result of their dogmatic self-justification for self-enriching policies.
Your "the upper classes have us all done in for" ranting aside, trickle down approaches depend on the specific circumstances. The greatest gains are had when corporate and small business taxation/regulations are improved, which has the impact that those who work in and for and/or own those businesses become richer. imo, small businesses are more important than is usually taken credit for, but finding good data to prove it is hard (generally, its all biased). In australia, much of the people in the top tax brackets are actually small business owners as there is no distinction between their individual self and the business entity. I thought this was the same for britain, but then i suppose its just easier to blame the rich people for everyone's misery.



Quote:
The education system maintains the staus quo.
In terms of social classes? Perhaps in Britain it does - i think i read somewhere that 7% of all schoolkids attend "public schools", however those 7% form 45% or so of all university entrants (with the remainder being those government schools who can discriminate by marks). In that case, yes i can see such a poor system doing nothing. In australia, this isnt the case. Private schools (similar to british public schools, but arent) are more likely to get kids into uni, but - once there - Public schoolkids are more likely to graduate. Either way, a large number of people i know at uni are from the normal state education system. Could their families afford Private schooling? probably not, and thus in Australia kids who are more or less intelligent and/or willing to work hard are able to achieve social mobility (defined as going to uni - still not sure if Arts students qualify ) if they are so inclined.

My point is, its not the same in every country. Generally its shit in britain, but then that's the point of having the UK in all measurements.

Quote:
Getting an education can help you to get a better job and may help the economy but these are very narrow aims and should not be what an education system is about.
I think that is a contentious issue. Schooling should provide the person with the skills that they will need to find and keep a job, preferably in the field(s) to which they aspire to be involved in. Most jobs require some degree of human interaction and thus interpersonal skills. Most jobs require basic knowledge of mathematics, communication, and the ability to think for oneself. Anything that isnt menial labour requires specific technical training, from carpentry to medicine, which is usually to cumbersome to do at (secondary) school. Once out of school, having any school based qualifications become more or less irrelevant as previous occupations become paramount in consideration.

Quote:
There is no attempt to develop emotionally secure, well-rounded human beings with an ability to think critically. The main purpose is to mould children into a mediocrity or to implant a mindset of 'the establishment' or at least to crush an impulse to question authority or to reject what is being taught.
I suppose, in australia, there isnt much point in teaching kids to "question authority", as being a larikin is a mainstay of our popular culture. BUt there is some limit to teaching kinds to 'thinking critically' - generally by some limited attention spans, plus the general vagueness of the topic makes it hard to teach and learn. An educations system that is grounded in practicality is important, imo, otherwise Art departments at uni get waaay over the top.

Imo, you need to stop reading Orwell and et al, and get out and smell the roses. Apparently there are quite a few in Britain. Dont be so bloody dour and generally shit.

Well, i do suppose it could be the weather.


Quote:
Well, apart from answering your own question you seem to be missing the most obvious effect of going to a publich school. It reinforces the class system. The chances of you going to a secondary school and reaching the upen echelons of political power, for example a virtually zero. The whole system breeds inequality of oppertunity.
As i have already stated at length, this is not the case in Australia nor the case for the ideal education system (which Australia's is not). around 35% of students in australia go to private schools, and i suppose half of all domestic uni students are from private schools. But that doesnt consider technical colleges (called TAFE) which provides training in "the trades" like plumbing etc.

What really enforces the class system is not attending school, not being motivated whilst there, and doing **** all work. If you then blame the state or the rich or others for your squandered opportunity and personal failure, then all you do is make yourself more miserable.


Quote:
I was trying to convey the fact that these areas are already falling apart and that the concentration of more poor people into smaller, more concentrated areas (which is a direct result of this redevelopment) would make life for the poor worse, rather than better.
The plight of the poorest in all societies - that there are always too many placed too close together and generally neglected - is essentially a constant. Nothing you say is new, or is likely to change significantly. The welfare state definitely doesnt help, given that britain has massive slums. The free market of the US doesnt help, given their situation is perhaps worse. Former "communist" countries, everyone was living in a slum. Your whining about the plight of people doesnt stop it from happening. What are you going to do about it?
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 12:30   #31
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I believe that there is more benefit for people having a job than being a "dole bludger", and not only because of the way it affects the state's finances; quite a bit of research shows that being unemployed for long periods is psychologically damaging. Welfare states that Europe has seems to prolong and increase the proportion of long-term unemployed
There's ~3x more long term unemployed in the US than in the UK, as a percentage of total unemployment.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 16:43   #32
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Cuts to the "welfare state" have in many respects improved the economy in Australia, and benefits many people. I acknowledge that its probable that more "rich" people benefited and more "poor" people were worse off, by and large "middle australia*" has improve in leaps and bounds after shedding bureaucratic bollocks and benefiting from a period of economic growth where virtually everyone who is looking for work can find it.
That'll teach them for being poor!

Quote:
I have four jobs, studying my Honours at Uni - and WA's unemployment rate is about 2% with ~4.5% nationally.
Some might say that you aren't the stereotypical unemployed person. There are deeper issues than being lazy. Social and cultural preoblems associated with growing up in poor neighbourhoods can create far more serious problems. Presentation and general attitude as well as the long-term mental effects of being surrounded by poverty 24 hours a day.

Low levels of expectation, much of which is genuine, can create what J. K. Galbraith calls the accommodation of poverty. In some situations it actually makes more sense to accept the poverty rather than wasting time and effort in actions that will probably fail. Why enhance your skills when you live an economic blackspot where there are no jobs anyway?

Quote:
I believe that there is more benefit for people having a job than being a "dole bludger", and not only because of the way it affects the state's finances;
Whether it is better for someone to be doing mindless, physically draining labour all day for pittance, is really a matter of opinion. If you want to talk about the states finances you may want to consider the excessive focus of welfare on the middle and upper classes who don't need it.

Apart from the social and moral aspects of raising living standards generally, there are many arguments that are more convincing than 'the rich need tax cuts as incentives whilst the poor need the grinding burden of poverty', which is basically what you are arguing.

Quote:
quite a bit of research shows that being unemployed for long periods is psychologically damaging.
This is true, but it does not equate that all work causes you to enter into a state of Buddist enlightentment. Human beings need some work, it is part of who we are. It just so happens that the most labourous work is the work with the least financial rewards.

Quote:
Welfare states that Europe has seems to prolong and increase the proportion of long-term unemployed,
This is false.

Quote:
presumably leading to more psychological damage to less employable people (which are usually the poorest people with the least skills, and/or people who are somehow unfit for normal work, neither of whom can afford anything resembling proper psychological treatment).
So these are the 'dole bluggers' you were complaining of earlier?

Quote:
All that aside, the argument that reduced spending on social welfare immediately and only benefits the rich through a tax cut clearly doesnt follow.
Not even when welfare payments are cut to fund tax cuts for the rich?

Quote:
If anything, in Australia, social welfare is still too high, with "middle class welfare" being the means for considerable electoral success for the previous commonwealth government - "sorting out" that kind of crap needs to be done, imo, as its a waste of money. Welfare should go to those who need it, not to those whose votes need buying.
But this doesn't get done due to electoral issues. These are the people who vote, if you don't appease them then they will vote for the other party offering what they want. This is part of the reason for the lack of divergence between mainstream parties.

Your definition of those who 'need' welfare seems to be rather narrow, and it has been argued that the best way to provide for the poorest is to provide universal coverage, to ensure the compliance of the middle classes. At the end of the day, even if the working class did start voting in huge numbers their interests would still be in conflict with the capitalist system as a whole. When it comes to the crunch, it is the interests of the poor which will bew neglected.

As a case in point, the emphasis on curbing inflation rather than unemployment. There are good reasons to believe that reducing unemployment through tax rises in a recession is better than curbing inflation through raising interest rates, but these are politically unsound methods so what is believed is what is conveniant to believe, even though it doesn't work.

Quote:
*unlike britain, middle australia is a huge proportion of the population due to being more or less un-stratified (at worst, there are three rough classes based on wealth, not birth).
That's funny because in the UK we have 24 separate social classes.

Inherited wealth and fortunes of birth tend to go hand in hand.

Quote:
It is, and it isnt. There wasnt all that much success in India in the late 70's and 80's, but in other instances where the limitiations of such a policy were well known and used in a proper framework which sought to minimise harm from such a policy (ie, doing it "right"), has helped other economies quite a bit. iirc, New Zealand experienced this in the late 80's to mid 90's. I might need to go check that.
The limitations of these policies were well known, are well known and still they are being employed by world ifnancial istitutions such as the IMF and this dogmatic approach is wreaking havoc in many countires in the world, Argentina in 2001 being a notable example.

Quote:
In australia, much of the people in the top tax brackets are actually small business owners as there is no distinction between their individual self and the business entity. I thought this was the same for britain, but then i suppose its just easier to blame the rich people for everyone's misery.
Do you think this is an accident? There are a number of political advantages to be gained from both politicians and the middle classes. Who is going to call for a higher tax on the rich or a new income tax bracket, who is going to risk freightening the middle class in such as way? Why would the middle class call for a tax on the richest when it could risk a tax rise for them as well?

Quote:
In terms of social classes? Perhaps in Britain it does - i think i read somewhere that 7% of all schoolkids attend "public schools", however those 7% form 45% or so of all university entrants (with the remainder being those government schools who can discriminate by marks). In that case, yes i can see such a poor system doing nothing. In australia, this isnt the case. Private schools (similar to british public schools, but arent) are more likely to get kids into uni, but - once there - Public schoolkids are more likely to graduate.
I'm not just talking about going to university, I'm talking about going to the elite universities, Oxford and Cambridge, the ones where most pupils come from pubic schools and makes the social connections required to raise to the highest levels of politics, for example.

Going to university can improve your career chances but some univiersites are 'better' than others and getting into them is not easy for the poor. This imbalance reinforces the class structure.

Quote:
Either way, a large number of people i know at uni are from the normal state education system. Could their families afford Private schooling? probably not, and thus in Australia kids who are more or less intelligent and/or willing to work hard are able to achieve social mobility (defined as going to uni - still not sure if Arts students qualify ) if they are so inclined.

My point is, its not the same in every country. Generally its shit in britain, but then that's the point of having the UK in all measurements.
You do realise the claim 'inferiority' of poor people is the result of social and economic forces rather them being geneticallt shit, right?

Quote:
I think that is a contentious issue. Schooling should provide the person with the skills that they will need to find and keep a job, preferably in the field(s) to which they aspire to be involved in. Most jobs require some degree of human interaction and thus interpersonal skills. Most jobs require basic knowledge of mathematics, communication, and the ability to think for oneself. Anything that isnt menial labour requires specific technical training, from carpentry to medicine, which is usually to cumbersome to do at (secondary) school. Once out of school, having any school based qualifications become more or less irrelevant as previous occupations become paramount in consideration.
There's a good thread about education (which might be damaged by horns purges*), check it out.

***** you KaneD

Quote:
I suppose, in australia, there isnt much point in teaching kids to "question authority", as being a larikin is a mainstay of our popular culture. BUt there is some limit to teaching kinds to 'thinking critically' - generally by some limited attention spans, plus the general vagueness of the topic makes it hard to teach and learn. An educations system that is grounded in practicality is important, imo, otherwise Art departments at uni get waaay over the top.
'Rebellion in social acceptable forms' is not thinking critically. Even if it were, this would still represent a tiny minority, who generally 'grow out' of it.

What is your problem with the arts?

Quote:
Imo, you need to stop reading Orwell and et al, and get out and smell the roses. Apparently there are quite a few in Britain. Dont be so bloody dour and generally shit.

Well, i do suppose it could be the weather.
Yeah, it couldn't possibly that the points I'm making have any substance. IF they did, how could we all be so happy?

Quote:
What really enforces the class system is not attending school, not being motivated whilst there, and doing **** all work. If you then blame the state or the rich or others for your squandered opportunity and personal failure, then all you do is make yourself more miserable.
Yes, everyone has exactly the same oppertunities and exactly the same social situation. If you can make it roughing it through your hardcore private school, then surely all those other people who come from single parent families living on welfare on run down estates, rife with crime, unemployment and a generally bleak future almost guranteed, well they can make it as well. Otherwise they're just lazy and should be made to suffer for it. Maybe more poverty will spur them on to better things. It hasn't worked yet, but maybe next time will be different. Meanwhile you can sit back and relax safe in the knowledge that the only thing you can do is support the increase of suffering by cutting welfare benefits whilst coincidentally improving your own economic situation through a tax cut, because let's face it, you've earned it!

Quote:
The plight of the poorest in all societies - that there are always too many placed too close together and generally neglected - is essentially a constant.
Oh well, I feel better already!

Quote:
Nothing you say is new, or is likely to change significantly.
Surely this is more of a reason to keep raising the issue rather than accept it meekly and be content in my own self-satisfaction?

Quote:
The welfare state definitely doesnt help, given that britain has massive slums. The free market of the US doesnt help, given their situation is perhaps worse. Former "communist" countries, everyone was living in a slum. Your whining about the plight of people doesnt stop it from happening. What are you going to do about it?
We can argue about whether alleviating poverty is possible in a capitalist system, but that can be for another thread. What is clear however, is that reducing benefits to the poor to give benefits to the rich only exacerbates the problem of social inequality. This in turn makes the problems worse, more difficult to rectify and more challenging to escape. These policies will lead to gettoisation like in America and that is something I want to see in Britain. At least if it does happen all the poor people will be firmly out of sight.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 01:08   #33
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Re: What is a Liberal?

People are always talking about tax cuts for the rich. However, in the United States, during the Bush administration and under the "tax breaks for the rich" the percentage of the overall taxes being paid by the wealthiest has risen, not dropped.

In tax year 2001, the top 1% of American tax payers paid 33.89% of all taxes while the poorest 50% of tax payers paid 3.97% of the taxes.

In tax year 2005. tje top 1% of taxpayers paid 39.38% of all taxes and the poorest paid 3.07% of tj\he taxes.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 01:19   #34
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Re: What is a Liberal?

You realise that statistics can be used to prove anything, right?


I'd far rather see you produce the relevant statistic for tax as a proportion of income - and we'll see how that bears up.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 01:26   #35
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Re: What is a Liberal?

The point is that if reducing taxes for a particular group results in that group actually paying more taxes, then what's the bitch?
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 12:17   #36
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
If you want to talk about the states finances you may want to consider the excessive focus of welfare on the middle and upper classes who don't need it.
As you know, i did state my position on this already. Middle class welfare doesnt facilitate economy building, thus its not for the government to provide.

Quote:
Apart from the social and moral aspects of raising living standards generally, there are many arguments that are more convincing than 'the rich need tax cuts as incentives whilst the poor need the grinding burden of poverty', which is basically what you are arguing.
Basically, i'm not arguing this at all. In fact, i said nothing of the sort - whilst i mentioned that some "rich" people in the top tax brackets are actually small businesses (who undertake and face significant risk), never did i argue that the rich should be taxed less, nor the poor taxed more. Mainly because it doesnt make sense, thus fails the common sense rule that i mentioned at the start of my posting. Transfer payments from the richest people in society to the poorest makes sense as poorest people tend to have a higher marginal propensity to consume, which in a modern capitalistic society - where consumption is such a huge requirement for economic growth - it makes at least economic sense to do this to some extent. Further, there are social and societal concerns with assisting the most needy in a community, such as the notion of a government's societal contract. At no time did i say anything contrary to this. Strawmen should be left in the fields.

I'm generally a big fan of public investment in infrastructure, ie governments becoming facilitators of the general economy, rather than managers, drivers or major sources of growth/activity. Issues such as Australia's telecommunications network, for example, which was bundled up with the state-run Telstra and privatised - now the infrastructure needs upgrading, and the (more or less) private business Telstra doesnt want to have to foot the bill to upgrade tens of billions of dollars worth of national broadband and other infrastructure only for the Commonwealth to regulate that the Telstra's competition must be free to use that network at the same competitive wholesale price. If the government still owned the infrastructure and rented it out to all of the telecommunications providers without fear or favour, then Australia would actually have a decent telecom system. Alas, it doesnt, even in major cities like Sydney and Melbourne (some ~4000km away from me, heh). Thus, it would have been common sense for the government to retain ownership of the infrastructure, upgrade it as demand dictated, and charge for the privilege. But it could also draw upon consolidated revenue to pay for the upgrade (which is costly) and still have the power to regulate the market to ensure decent competition. This kind of activity in the economy seems to make sense - there is no inefficient state monopoly, but its not fully free market (and thus no services to very low population density bush residents who still need these services).

This is the kind of thing i was advocating - not trying to root the poor. However, my original point was that such an undertaking would have indirect benefits to all members of society; poorer people will have greater access to good telecommunications than they otherwise would or presently do. Thus, an (indirect) benefit. Does that make sense now?

Quote:
This is true, but it does not equate that all work causes you to enter into a state of Buddist enlightenment. Human beings need some work, it is part of who we are. It just so happens that the most labourous work is the work with the least financial rewards.
I never claimed bhuddist enlightenment is derived from any work. The work with the greatest financial rewards tends to be those where the demand greatly outstrips supply (funny that, a core maxim of economics) - because essentially anyone can do menial labour, and plenty of people are willing and able to do it, the pay for such labour is less than medicine which required special skills held by a select few who can then command their prices. This is really quite obvious, even to you. Menial labour would pay alot more if fewer people were willing or able to do it. This is achieved by a general shift in the economy towards greater skills and higher general wages. But wages have to be linked to productivity, else there will be inflation 80's style which did nothing but cause economic (and associated social) hardship for more people than otherwise.

Quote:
So these are the 'dole bluggers' you were complaining of earlier?
No. Dole bludging (or someone who is a dole bludger) is a mindset whereby someone is capable of working, but is not willing to do so. Usually because they cant be arsed and dont give a damn because the government pays them for being unemployed. The commonwealth has tried to cut down on this excessive waste by introducing "work for the dole" schemes (to various levels of success), but obviously has adverse impacts to other social groups (such as single mothers). Generally, in australia, a dole bludger is being un-australian by not doing their bit and being slack. And surfing. The problem is, in official statistics, they are considered unemployed.

But no-where did i say that all unemployed people were dole bludgers - my point was that those who were/are need to pull their socks up and get a bloody job, because right now is the best time in australian history since the Army was recruiting in WW2.

Quote:
But this doesn't get done due to electoral issues. These are the people who vote, if you don't appease them then they will vote for the other party offering what they want. This is part of the reason for the lack of divergence between mainstream parties.
Whinging about the similarities between political parties aside, middle class welfare will continue to the point where its no longer electorably successful and/or a government has such a majority it can afford to loose those votes to attain others. Essentially, avoidance of a recession is a good tool to use, and Australia's present "runaway inflation" (the Reserve Bank just raised the cash rate to 7%) means that the commonwealth and the states will need to curb unnecessary spending. It remains to be seen whether the new government has the balls to deem middle class welfare as unnecessary, but i know where i'd place my bet .

Quote:
Your definition of those who 'need' welfare seems to be rather narrow,
Frankly, common sense seems like a fairly good starting point.

Quote:
and it has been argued that the best way to provide for the poorest is to provide universal coverage, to ensure the compliance of the middle classes.
I'm all for "universal coverage" type public insurance systems, like Medicare and others. Mainly because they make sense - it avoids the free rider problem, it alleviates adverse selection, and it fulfils any notions about "social contracts" with people and their governments. I never said anything against it.

Quote:
At the end of the day, even if the working class did start voting in huge numbers their interests would still be in conflict with the capitalist system as a whole. When it comes to the crunch, it is the interests of the poor which will bew neglected.
In australia, the "working class" already vote in huge numbers, given that voting is compulsory. Did it fix the problem? not really. Most vote Labor like their mothers and fathers did, and as such their votes are assumed to be Labor held and thus no real change happens. I dont think their interests are against the capitalist system however, given that communism results in everyone being working class and that anarchism results in chaos and/or is improbable that they would gain (cf the richer people loosing - but even that's not certain). Perhaps if all the working classes found enlightenment via bhudda? Wasnt that the whole purpose of religions anyway? to suppress the peasantry?

Quote:
As a case in point, the emphasis on curbing inflation rather than unemployment. There are good reasons to believe that reducing unemployment through tax rises in a recession is better than curbing inflation through raising interest rates, but these are politically unsound methods so what is believed is what is convenient to believe, even though it doesn't work.
I'm not sure about that. History clearly demonstrates that government's economic policy should follow whatever works at the time. This is common sense. Post great depressions, Keynesianism philosophy of high government spending resulting in success, thus it should be pursued. In the mid 70's with the oil crisis, when Keynesianism lead to nothing but stagflation, monetarism (which was essentially supply side economics, cf demand side economics for keynes) worked, so that should be pursued. Since then, keeping a check on both the demand and supply side (increase spending during recession, easing monetary policy simultaneously) has staved off recession for quite a while. Australia's last recession was in 1991 with "the recession we had to have" after massive microeconomic-reform, with major re-structuring of the economy.

What you seem to be alluding to are the IMF's policys around the time of the 1997 Asian Crash. Clearly, as i try and promote common sense, you definitely will not find me a friend of the IMF. If you're interested, have a read of Stiglitz's A new paradigm in financial economics (iirc) when he blasted the IMF to hell and gone. The IMF did it again in Argentina, but they are reforming (marginally) since. Essentially, do what Dr Mahatir did in Malaysia at the time (listen to what the IMF says, do the opposite, win), and you'll be fine .

Quote:
That's funny because in the UK we have 24 separate social classes.
Well done. Refer to my earlier comments about the UK being shit.
Australia is essentially classless with high social mobility. If you do belong to a "class", its pretty broad and generally defined as what occupation you presently hold - eg, Doctors being higher than Carpenters, being higher than menial labour being higher than unemployed.

Quote:
I'm not just talking about going to university, I'm talking about going to the elite universities, Oxford and Cambridge, the ones where most pupils come from pubic schools and makes the social connections required to raise to the highest levels of politics, for example.
Well, i was. Generally, because Australia doesnt have elite universities as britain does - generally all the universities are divided into three broad tiers. "Sandstone" universities are the oldest and have (apparently) good reputations; generally being founded around the time of that state's colony. The second tier are the Technology universities which were started around the time of the post-war boom, catering to wider applicants during the time of free university education for all. After these are what are known derisively as "Super TAFEs" which may or may not actually be universities at all, followed by Technical Colleges (called TAFE) where trades are tought. However, this stratification doesnt always hold - take Western Australia for example. The University of Western Australia is a sandstone uni and has a very good (at least domestic) reputation. However, it specialises in Medicine and Law and fairly good at Engineering. Curtin University of Technology (where I go to), specialises in Commerce (where i do Economics) and Engineering - UWA and Curtin's Engineering essentially has no difference between them. Murdoch university (more or less technology) is extremely good in Veterinary Medicine, Bio Tech and Chemistry, with secondary in Law (which does not rival UWA). Thus, if you wanted to do veterinary, you'd go to Murdoch even if you had the marks to go to UWA.

Its a bit confusing, but the Australian experience is that the distinction is between going to university and not, rather than going to Cambridge and goinf to university and not. All universities have extensive scholarship programmes, though they are based on marks and not socio-economic background.

Quote:
You do realise the claim 'inferiority' of poor people is the result of social and economic forces rather them being geneticallt shit, right?
I'm not understanding your point here. I never claimed such a thing at all?!?!

Quote:
'Rebellion in social acceptable forms' is not thinking critically.
No, but it does represent an in-grained willingness to challenge the prevailing "establishment" (for want of a better term). I acknowledge that there is a distinction between being cynical and thinking about a superior world view, i think that having the former in-grained as a feature of our culture at least makes it more difficult to be oppressed in the Orwellian style that you prefer to make the world out to be.


Quote:
What is your problem with the arts?
Generally, the colossal waste of money on them, the huge number of students without even a cursory nod to the availability of jobs for arts graduates, general shitness and unspecificity and etc.

Quote:
Yeah, it couldn't possibly that the points I'm making have any substance. IF they did, how could we all be so happy?
I'm happy.
I did acknowledge that the Weather in Britain might have something to do with your dour attitude.



Quote:
Yes, everyone has exactly the same oppertunities and exactly the same social situation. If you can make it roughing it through your hardcore private school, then surely all those other people who come from single parent families living on welfare on run down estates, rife with crime, unemployment and a generally bleak future almost guranteed, well they can make it as well. Otherwise they're just lazy and should be made to suffer for it. Maybe more poverty will spur them on to better things. It hasn't worked yet, but maybe next time will be different. Meanwhile you can sit back and relax safe in the knowledge that the only thing you can do is support the increase of suffering by cutting welfare benefits whilst coincidentally improving your own economic situation through a tax cut, because let's face it, you've earned it!
You jest, i realise this. My neighbour is smarter than me and has been since we were children. He went to the local public school whilst i bussed across town (out of my neighbourhood) to my poncy private school. He and his family went on holiday every year (even if it was just down south) whilst we stayed home. He is now doing an apprenticeship (iirc winning the State's Apprentice of the Year) whilst i'm doing my Honours. He is pursuing what he wants to do, and is doing well, whilst i'm doing what i want to do, and is doing ok. In a similar vein, a mate of mine also doing honours is much smarter than me. He's graduated and now has a Commonwealth job. He grew up in the next suburb across (not "rough" as the americans call it, but far from upper class), single parent family with two siblings is beating the pants off me. Essentially, if both of them can get out and succeed, then its proven it can be done even within my relatively small field. True oppression of the classes would be if none of us got where we are now. Just because my family chose to sacrifice all the "fun" things in life (we went on one holiday in 20 years, and etc) to afford to educate me as best as possible, doesnt mean i cant appreciate the hardship of others.

But just taking the piss out of a group of people because they happen to now have wealth, whilst you may not, isnt a useful occupation of your time. What might be better is if you removed you finger from up your bum and bloody well did something about it for yourself.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 12:19   #37
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The point is that if reducing taxes for a particular group results in that group actually paying more taxes, then what's the bitch?
Because if they had payed even more under the old scheme, then they're gaining?

ie,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
In tax year 2001, the top 1% of American tax payers paid 33.89% of all taxes while the poorest 50% of tax payers paid 3.97% of the taxes.

In tax year 2005. tje top 1% of taxpayers paid 39.38% of all taxes and the poorest paid 3.07% of tj\he taxes.
In 2005, rather than 39.38% they were to have paid 42.13% - they gain from the tax cut as its increasing at a decreased rate.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 12:25   #38
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Re: What is a Liberal?

tl;dr (though I got about halfway)
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 12:28   #39
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Re: What is a Liberal?

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
tl;dr (though I got about halfway)
What??
I dont understand ... is my post broken?
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 17:32   #40
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Because if they had payed even more under the old scheme, then they're gaining?

ie,



In 2005, rather than 39.38% they were to have paid 42.13% - they gain from the tax cut as its increasing at a decreased rate.
And what would have been the result of them paying more taxes? More revenue? That is not what history suggests. If not more revenue for the government then what. Punishing accomplishment? Taxes are a very complicated thing and raising taxes often results in less investment, less profits, less jobs and greater distress at the bottom end of the scale. One cannot have a zero tax rate and one cannot have a 100% tax rate. A tax rate has to be set in a fashion which encourages growth and pays the necessary bills.

The real question, for me, is are the bottom 50% better or worse off than they were before. On the whole, since there were more jobs and their portion of the overall tax burden was smaller, they benefited from the tax cuts. The problem can be that when you raise the portion of taxes paid by the wealthiest, you become ever more dependent upon their income to support all of the sevices which society deems important. When an economic downturn occurs the rich have less income which results in a very large short fall in revenues. This causes a lot of problems and guess who usually gets screwed first when services are cut? You guessed it! The people utilizing the services. So, the bottom half, using most of the social service budget come out on the short end of the stick.
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Unread 8 Feb 2008, 14:29   #41
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
And what would have been the result of them paying more taxes? More revenue? That is not what history suggests. If not more revenue for the government then what. Punishing accomplishment? Taxes are a very complicated thing and raising taxes often results in less investment, less profits, less jobs and greater distress at the bottom end of the scale. One cannot have a zero tax rate and one cannot have a 100% tax rate. A tax rate has to be set in a fashion which encourages growth and pays the necessary bills.

The real question, for me, is are the bottom 50% better or worse off than they were before. On the whole, since there were more jobs and their portion of the overall tax burden was smaller, they benefited from the tax cuts. The problem can be that when you raise the portion of taxes paid by the wealthiest, you become ever more dependent upon their income to support all of the sevices which society deems important. When an economic downturn occurs the rich have less income which results in a very large short fall in revenues. This causes a lot of problems and guess who usually gets screwed first when services are cut? You guessed it! The people utilizing the services. So, the bottom half, using most of the social service budget come out on the short end of the stick.
I've said it beofre and I'll say it again. Trickle down economics does not work.

Also, there's a lot of people contained in that 50% and what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.

So to reduce the rick of poor people suffering from welfare cuts we should not give them a better system at all? Genius!

If I recall correctly, the USA doesn't have too much taxation, relative to other countries.
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Unread 9 Feb 2008, 01:56   #42
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Re: What is a Liberal?

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Originally Posted by dda
One cannot have a zero tax rate and one cannot have a 100% tax rate.
For the very, very rich it's always possible to have a zero (or close to zero) tax rate. Funny thing, eh.

(the rest of what you wrote was so poor I felt embarrased on your behalf, old man)
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Unread 9 Feb 2008, 14:25   #43
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Re: What is a Liberal?

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
For the very, very rich it's always possible to have a zero (or close to zero) tax rate. Funny thing, eh.
why bother with learning tax law when you can believe something stupid instead ...
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Unread 9 Feb 2008, 15:05   #44
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Re: What is a Liberal?

"super rich in tax avoidance shocker!"

http://money.uk.msn.com/guides/salar...mentid=4750384
Quote:
Minimising income tax
Accepting that there is a degree of guesswork in the numbers given that neither individual tax returns nor the details of more arcane tax shelters are public documents, but taking them at their face value, we estimate that Britain's billionaires paid an effective income tax rate of barely 0.4%.
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Unread 10 Feb 2008, 00:02   #45
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Re: What is a Liberal?

One of Norways richest persons, Stein Erik Hagen: http://skatt.api.no/www.ba.no/person.html?id=781512

His real fortune isnt 1307 million NOK as stated. This is mainly due to the valuation of shares and so on. His real fortune is much higher, estimated at 13000 million NOK (slightly more than 1 billion pound sterling). However, his tax at 7mill NOK is less than what should have been the ordinary fortune tax on his "official" 1307mill NOK fortune....

Another example, Jens Ulltveit Moe:
http://skatt.api.no/www.ba.no/person.html?id=1077288

His real fortune is estimated to be around 8000 NOK, so he pays 0,15% in tax.. (http://e24.no/naeringsliv/article2226364.ece)

Im going to get taxed 14% for the 75.000 NOK (that's about 7000 quid) Im going to earn this year.
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Unread 10 Feb 2008, 01:47   #46
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Im going to get taxed 14% for the 75.000 NOK (that's about 7000 quid) Im going to earn this year.
Given it is you i think that we should use the word earn in the loosest sense ...
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Unread 10 Feb 2008, 14:28   #47
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Can somebody translate yahwe's "english" for me?
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Unread 10 Feb 2008, 14:32   #48
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Re: What is a Liberal?

He's calling you a tramp. Are you going to let him do this!
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Unread 10 Feb 2008, 15:25   #49
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
However, his tax at 7mill (...)

Im going to get taxed 14% for the 75.000 NOK (that's about 7000 quid) Im going to earn this year.
So hes contributing roughly 1000 times more than you to your precious social programs then?
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Unread 10 Feb 2008, 20:19   #50
G.K Zhukov
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
So hes contributing roughly 1000 times more than you to your precious social programs then?
Sitting on your fat arse, living off other peoples work and having to pay a snip of your huge fortune in tax is a violation of his human rights, clearly!

I shall send him flowers at once!

At least the poor bugger have complained about having to pay fortune tax (the only tax he probably pays, since he does tax planning) in the norwegian media. Good bless him.
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<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
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<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
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