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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 00:12   #51
Travler
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Want a method? Look up the RNA World Hypothesis. No, it's not generally accepted, but that's because science requires evidence. Nevertheless, the debate is not over whether it was done, but how it was done, another distinction that ID proponents often ignore.
Your forgetting one thing. How does this complex system of building blocks and DNA even exist? We know how it works. We can recreate the seeming random nature of DNA formation but your forgetting that there is a blueprint upon which everything works.

Suppose that everything in the universe was made of Legos. Science always works to explain how legos form different formations and how this combination does this and that combination does that and if this number of legos is propelled at this speed and the collides it will form this, etc. The real question is who made all the legos to begin with. Are you saying that the whole system of things that exist is completely random and just managed to form life and evolve purely from random chance? Again the odds of that happening are next to impossible. You take emperical evidence for granted and don't understand that there are trillions upon trillions of things about our universe that have yet to be discovered.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 00:23   #52
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maladoni
I read this tonight and I must say it kinda shocked me. I know what it’s about, it’s about 7th century Britton and I think the character is the best representation of my views I have seen so far.

"I am no Christian. These days it does no good to confess that, for the bishops and abbots have much influence and it’s easier to pretend a faith than to fight angry ideas. I was raised a Christian, but at 10 years old, when I was taken into Ragnar's family, I discovered the old Saxon gods who were also the gods of the Danes and of the Norsemen, and their worship has always made more sense to me than bowing down to a god who belongs to a country so far away that I have met no one who has ever been there. Thor and Odin walked our hills, slept in our valleys, loved our women and drank from our streams, and that makes them seam like neighbours. The other thing I like about our gods is that they are not obsessed with us. They have their own squabbles and love affairs and seem to ignore us much of the time, but the Christian god has nothing better to do than make rules for us. He makes rules, more rules, prohibitions and commandments, and he needs hundreds of black-robed priests and monks to make sure we obey those laws. He strikes me as a very grumpy god, that one, even though his priests are forever claiming that he loves us. I have never been so stupid as to think that Thor or Odin or Hoder loved me, though I hope at times they have thought me worthy of them"

I'm sure you see yourself as worthy, which is noble. There are many programmed randoms, it’s your choice if you choose to execute one. The world may be smaller and more grown up than 1,300 years, but the trap doors are ever more plentiful.
Religion has long been used as an oppressive and controling force in Europe and in other parts of the world as well. God really does love us and the rules are not as important as loving and being loved.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 00:36   #53
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Re: Are you ready?

Oh dear, I bet Turkey wished they could get owned so quickly as they would be fully signed up members of the community right now.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 00:51   #54
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Your forgetting one thing. How does this complex system of building blocks and DNA even exist? We know how it works. We can recreate the seeming random nature of DNA formation but your forgetting that there is a blueprint upon which everything works.

Suppose that everything in the universe was made of Legos. Science always works to explain how legos form different formations and how this combination does this and that combination does that and if this number of legos is propelled at this speed and the collides it will form this, etc. The real question is who made all the legos to begin with. Are you saying that the whole system of things that exist is completely random and just managed to form life and evolve purely from random chance? Again the odds of that happening are next to impossible. You take emperical evidence for granted and don't understand that there are trillions upon trillions of things about our universe that have yet to be discovered.
1) A lack of understanding is not proof of some higher being.

2) If there were only one star and one planet in the universe then your point may hold some validity. there are an incomprehensible number of stars and even more planets, the odds for finding the conditions for life might be one in a billion, but if you have 500 billion chances then the possibility of finding one is greatly increased.

the more people who play the lottery, the greater the chance of one of them winning. if only one person bought a ticket winning the lottery would be almost impossible, but it could still happen.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 00:51   #55
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Evolution is taking the fact that living things adapt and calling a series of adaptions evolution. It's like the old joke that says "If Man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"
Why is there only one fossile called "Lucy" of the so-called missing link?

I don't fully agree with everything about ID but I do believe that creatures that exist on our planet and in our universe are not random. Beyond a few proteins, amino acids, peptides, and enzymes I highly doubt that a full strand of DNA could be assembled from random.
Stronger genes replace weaker once, we evolve with every generation
I would hardly call that random; it's survival of the fittest

Just like that old joke

"If we don't evolve, why isn't everyone like Travler then?"
and
"Why do your children look like the milkman and not like their parents?"
or on a more serious note:
"Why do we keep getting taller, smarter, physicly weaker and balder in the western world"
and
"Why are the Africans that we took to the USA stronger then the once in Africa, what makes them different, what happened on those boats and after that"
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Last edited by Alessio; 9 Nov 2006 at 01:14.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 04:51   #56
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The real question is who made all the legos to begin with.
Questions about the creation of the universe belong to the realm of metaphysics and as such have about as much relevance to any meaningful discussion of anything as the colour of the wall behind my computer.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 06:00   #57
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Re: Are you ready?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I spent two full minutes staring at my keyboard wondering what to type in response to this. In the end I decided suicide was the only suitable option.





Yours, that is, not mine.
It seems JBG is starting to lose his Tolerance with Travler.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 06:25   #58
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The real question is who made all the legos to begin with.
I dont think that this is a very valid question; firstly, by starting with "who", it implies that someone is responsible - its almost setting you up for a fail because really who would that someone be other than God? Afaik - and i'm no expert as i tend to stay away from utter folly - but isnt that the main argument of ID proponents? "Well, its got to be somebody, and if none of you know who it is, why cant it be God?" Secondly, it implies that the single source is responsible for all the lego blocks; i dont see why this has to be the case. Thirdly, it implies that there is some time reference - a beginning and thus implies a period of "before the beginning" - why couldnt they have always existed?

Perhaps a better way to phrase this question would be: "by what process(es) were the lego blocks developed into what we recognise today?" - or something along those lines.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 09:52   #59
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Suppose that everything in the universe was made of Legos. Science always works to explain how legos form different formations and how this combination does this and that combination does that and if this number of legos is propelled at this speed and the collides it will form this, etc. The real question is who made all the legos to begin with.
This issue is a bit of a red herring. Asking "who" made them is a loaded question, and it is not something I'll answer until you ask it in a less stupid way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Are you saying that the whole system of things that exist is completely random and just managed to form life and evolve purely from random chance? Again the odds of that happening are next to impossible.
Another red herring, in particular the "just managed to [...] evolve purely from random chance?" Random chance is one of the predicates for evolution (there must be mutation for evolution to be able to take place), not one of it's flaws.

Your ID and Creationist crowd have an analogy, the watchmaker; that upon finding a watch, you must imply the existance of a watchmaker, because the watch is too precise, too complicated, to have come about through random chance.

Evolution, in a way, is the same. Everything we look at implies (selected) randomness. From the genetic code to the way plants and animals interact, to the very origin of the galaxies themselves.

Scientists are not out to destroy religion per se. Many of the early, and indeed some of the current, set were deeply religious, but published their findings anyway. Some believe that science is compatable with the idea of god, and indeed it is; you can never disprove the existance of anything through empirical evidence.

We, however, are living through a time when science has discovered no evidence for god. This is not in itself damning, but when you stack up all the evidence of the things, which do not require a god to work, against it then the space for god to hide in is getting smaller and smaller, and organised religion's great tendancy to reject the cold, unbiased fact of many scientific discoveries has meant that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
You take emperical evidence for granted and don't understand that there are trillions upon trillions of things about our universe that have yet to be discovered.
I am well aware of the large number of things which science is yet to discover or even start to investigate. However, to a certain level of measurement, we're doing pretty well at modelling the universe.

This is another logical fallacy by the way, it's called "God of the gaps". I'm sure you've been informed of this before.

[edit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Your forgetting one thing. How does this complex system of building blocks and DNA even exist?
Oh, and if this in any way refers to anything but the creation of the universe, I refer you to cosmology, on the one hand, and the RNA World Hypothesis (and others) on the other. Your asking where DNA came from seems to indicate that you have not read anything on the RNA World Hypothesis, which seems to be rather insulting; I've read a significant quantity of the bible, I've read upon the history and dogma and philosophy of the church. I see you are so arrogant as to not grant me the same courtesy.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 19:01   #60
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
This issue is a bit of a red herring. Asking "who" made them is a loaded question, and it is not something I'll answer until you ask it in a less stupid way.
Even with RNA being viewed as the beginning of life how is that possible. Everything can only fit together in certain ways. Are there lots of possibilities? What I am saying is that the basic blueprint for life was not created by random chance. Things fit together and make certain larger things. Take some out and its something else. The point is that because the universe works the way it does something set up that foundation so that things could work.

Take a human being for example. Can Science create a human from just the raw elements that exist in the human body? I don't think so. It would be impossible. Yet science states that’s how it happened through evolution. When did the base elements evolve? They did not. Evolution works because there is a system to allow it to work. If there was not a blueprint for life then life could not evolve. SOMETHING created that blueprint. It was not random. It is impossible for the blueprint to be random.

Proof of God exists because everything exist. The universe did not order itself through random chance. If random chance were responsible for everything then all elements would still be moving randomly. Gravity? Not possible until enough particles form together but why do they attract to each other in the first place? Is the existence of gravity also random or did something make gravity possible?

The universe seems chaotic and random but in reality it is highly ordered and structured. Planets are made of element, elements are made of particles, particles are made of smaller particles and so forth and so on. These things all fit together because they were designed/created/blueprinted to work together.

If random chance were responsible for everything then there would still be nothing in the universe. Random chance is impossible. In reality nothing is random. Random is just another word for "I did it different this time." Go bowling some time and you will see what I mean. If you place the bowling ball in the same place at the same speed with the same spin you will get the same result every time right? Wrong. Because millions of particles cannot be in the same place as before. This is not random, these particles were moved on purpose the last time a ball was thrown. There is no random chance. Things moved and are no longer the same. The universe is in constant motion and so is everything in it. It has always been this way. All of the movement is ordered and could be predicted if we had the knowledge of how to examine everything seen and unseen in the universe. We lack the ability to see those subatomic and smaller particle so to us it's just "random chance" that things happen. Bah. Random like an Ice cream cone? Random like a whale? Random like a nuclear power plant? Random like a daisy? NO! So highly ordered that it boggles the mind how precise everything in the universe is.

Yeah there is a watchmaker and he set the electrons in motion when he set the leptons in motion when he set the strings a vibrating.

To discount a higher power is to not fully examine the universe and get to understand that the creator reigns supreme in everything, everywhere, in all times.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 20:39   #61
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Even with RNA being viewed as the beginning of life how is that possible.
In what sense? In the "how do molecules exist woah" kind of way, or a how was the RNA formed kind of way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Everything can only fit together in certain ways. Are there lots of possibilities? What I am saying is that the basic blueprint for life was not created by random chance.
Well, in terms of things being carbon based, things are carbon based because carbon has the ability to form long chains of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Things fit together and make certain larger things. Take some out and its something else. The point is that because the universe works the way it does something set up that foundation so that things could work.
Doesn't follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Take a human being for example. Can Science create a human from just the raw elements that exist in the human body? I don't think so. It would be impossible.
It would be impossible with modern science, largely because we do not fully understand how the body operates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Yet science states that’s how it happened through evolution.
No, it really isn't. Noone is saying that the random elements just come together to form a human.

Did noone ever explain sexual reproduction to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
When did the base elements evolve? They did not.
Good thing noone claimed they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Evolution works because there is a system to allow it to work. If there was not a blueprint for life then life could not evolve. SOMETHING created that blueprint. It was not random. It is impossible for the blueprint to be random.
Well, there's a few people in physics who believe that the physical properties of the universe are a mathematical inevitability,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Proof of God exists because everything exist.
Doesn't follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The universe did not order itself through random chance.
Or at all!

The universe is extremely disorganised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
If random chance were responsible for everything then all elements would still be moving randomly.
Doesn't follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Gravity? Not possible until enough particles form together
Any mass, no matter how small, will have a gravitational field associated with it. If someone told you otherwise, they're talking a complete load of bollocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
but why do they attract to each other in the first place?
If you're talking individual particles, it's much more likely to have been the electromagnetic force that caused them to clump together (or spread apart, in the case of uniform groups) as the electromagnetic force is many many times more powerful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Is the existence of gravity also random or did something make gravity possible?
Metaphysics, irrelevent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The universe seems chaotic and random but in reality it is highly ordered and structured.
Funny you should say that, because in my experience it's actually the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Planets are made of element, elements are made of particles, particles are made of smaller particles and so forth and so on. These things all fit together because they were designed/created/blueprinted to work together.
Doesn't follow, also metaphysics and irrelevent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
If random chance were responsible for everything then there would still be nothing in the universe. Random chance is impossible.
QM relies fairly heavily on the existance of random chance, and it's pretty good at what it does. Perhaps you can suggest an alternative system? Mathematics please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
In reality nothing is random. Random is just another word for "I did it different this time."
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Go bowling some time and you will see what I mean. If you place the bowling ball in the same place at the same speed with the same spin you will get the same result every time right? Wrong.
That's chaos, not randomness. Please don't confuse the two, it makes you look foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
To discount a higher power is to not fully examine the universe and get to understand that the creator reigns supreme in everything, everywhere, in all times.
Now, I do not know everything there is to know in the field of Physics, far from it. In addition, I have to say I cannot remember talking to a proponent of creationism or ID that understood properly evolution, or statistics, or the elements of physics which they feel time and time again that they must wade in on debates in.

So please, set the trend wrong. Please give examples of where you think the problems lie, using mathematics.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 20:42   #62
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Re: Are you ready?

Maybe after this we could start referencing entropy as disproving evolution and just complete our list of banal arguments for the day.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 20:47   #63
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Maybe after this we could start referencing entropy as disproving evolution and just complete our list of banal arguments for the day.
Just because "scientists" say there's a big ball of gas which releases lots of energy doesn't mean I should believe them, you racist.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 23:38   #64
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So please, set the trend wrong. Please give examples of where you think the problems lie, using mathematics.
I don't study mathmatics or physics so providing calculation is actually beyond my scope.

What I am getting at is that things have a tendancy to fall into place and work because that is how they were set up.

This quote really supports ID
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Well, there's a few people in physics who believe that the physical properties of the universe are a mathematical inevitability,
Of course. Thats the way it was set up. Like I said before
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The universe is in constant motion and so is everything in it. It has always been this way. All of the movement is ordered and could be predicted if we had the knowledge of how to examine everything seen and unseen in the universe. We lack the ability to see those subatomic and smaller particles so to us it's just "random chance" that things happen.
Do you really need a calculation to tell you that before you play a game of chess you need pieces and a chessboard?
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 23:42   #65
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I don't study mathmatics or physics so providing calculation is actually beyond my scope.

What I am getting at is that things have a tendancy to fall into place and work because that is how they were set up.

This quote really supports ID

Of course. Thats the way it was set up. Like I said before


Do you really need a calculation to tell you that before you play a game of chess you need pieces and a chessboard?
your birth was by random chance.

In fact your birth disproves inteligent design.
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Unread 9 Nov 2006, 23:53   #66
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
What I am getting at is that things have a tendancy to fall into place and work because that is how they were set up.
Someone I know (can't remember who) made a good point about evolution, or something, but it goes well here.

If you watch the Pop Idol final and see the winner then look backwards to see the chain of events that took them to the end (and eventual victory) you see how unlikely it was that this one person out of hundreds of thousands managed to 'survive', so to speak.

this one person had the skills and chance breaks to make it to the end whilst hundreads of thousands of others fell by the way.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 00:12   #67
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Re: Are you ready?

the 'i can't understand the probability' point is easily solved

all travler needs to do is get 10 decks of playing cards. shuffle them. pick out 10 in order.

He can stare at the ones he's picked out screaming "this is statisticly impossible god must have arranged this!!" all he wants. But eventually he will come to understand that if he does the same thing every minute for a billion years he will get the same combination several times.

the fact is that travler does not want to even try to concieve of the way the world came into being.

It amuses me terribly because good theolgians and intelligent people of faith accept the truth. It is only poor theolgians (travlers pastor) and frightened zealots (travler) who can not accept it.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 04:13   #68
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
your birth was by random chance.

In fact your birth disproves inteligent design.
I am sorry that you feel that way. My parents deeply loved each other and their desire to have me as a child occured long before my conception. My father was distinctly aware of the moment of my conception and his love for me began well before I was born. I was not random by any means. I was chosen. There are people in this world that feel that maybe they were a mistake because they did not receive the love they needed from their parents. It's easy to see why alot of people feel random but it's a misconception based on emotional need.

The following information comes from Evolution and Chance
Version 2.1 Draft 1
Copyright © 1996-1997 by John Wilkins
[Last Update: April 17, 1997]

Genetic changes do not anticipate a species' needs, and those changes may be unrelated to selection pressures on the species. Nevertheless, evolution is not fundamentally a random process.

Darwinism has long being interpreted as a view of nature as based upon "chance". Ideologues have pounced on this to bolster their own extra-scientific philosophies. The antiscientific Stalinist perversion of genetics in the USSR in the 1940s known after its main proponent as Lysenkoism is an example. In an attack on Darwinism, Lysenko said:


"Such sciences as physics and chemistry have freed themselves from chance. That is why they became exact sciences.
Animate nature was developed and is developed on a foundation of the most strict and inherent rules. Organisms and species are developed on a foundation of their natural and intrinsic needs.

By getting rid of Mendelism-Morganism-Weismannism from our science we banish chance out of biological science.

We must keep in mind clearly that science is the enemy of chance."

[T D Lysenko, Aug 7 1948. Appleman 1970:559]

Mendel, Morgan and Weismann were the biologists who discovered genes and mutation. Their work underpins modern biology and modern evolutionary theory.

Lysenko's intuitions about chance in biology were so successful that 20 million people starved to death as a result of his false science applied to agriculture. With appropriate substitutions about "kinds" and God's purpose for species, the statement could have been made by a creationist.

This conception of genetic changes as accidental and unique, about which no laws may be formulated, is fundamentally flawed, for all that it reappears in a number of influential works on evolution. Causes of genetic change are being uncovered routinely, and they involve better or worse understood mechanisms that are very far from random, in the sense that there are very clear causes for the changes, and that they can be specified in detail over general cases. Monod's use of the phrase "realm of pure chance" is rhetoric and is misleading at best, simply false at worst.

There is no basic randomness here, except as far as it arises from the general indeterminacy of the physical world (known as stochastic processes). The same is true for Development Rules. Fetal development in mammals is becoming well understood in terms of the causes of cell differentiation and gene activation. Once these processes have been fully uncovered, there will be no randomness here, either.

Therefore, randomness must enter into evolution per se, if it does, at the level of Ecological Rules; that is, in the ecological struggle [Sober 1984]. However, nobody can fairly argue against the statement that certain phenotypic properties -- a longer beak or stronger hindlegs -- can influence their relative reproduction in a population. So, even if the correlation is only a matter of frequency, there is still a nonrandom relationship between what is claimed as the cause and the effect.

Yet, it is often claimed that randomness drives evolution, as in the quotation from Monod above. We have to ask, where does chance really enter into evolution?

Random Relative to What?

To understand the randomness claimed for evolution by scientists, as opposed to that feared by theologians and moral philosophers, it's important to ask "random relative to what?" In any model of a process as described by a scientific theory, there are many things taken for granted. Philosophers of science refer to these as ancillary assumptions or hypotheses. Some of these are assumed from ignorance: science might not yet have any workable and tested theory or model to deal with that class of phenomena. Others are assumed because they are well worked out in another scientific theory or discipline.

Another way to say this is just that the changes that get encoded in genes occur with no forethought to the eventual needs of the organism (or the species) that carries those genes. A gene change (for instance, a point mutation -- a mistake at a single locus of the genetic structure) may change in any way permitted by the laws of molecular biology, according to the specific causes at the time. This may result in a phenotypic change that may be better suited to current conditions than the others about at the time. However, it probably won't. So far as the local environment is concerned, the change is the result of a random process, a black box that isn't driven with reference to things going on at the level of the environment. It's not really random, of course, because it is the result of causal processes, but so far as natural selection is concerned, it may as well be.

Replication Rules are not random in the sense that, say, Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty or quantum mechanics is sometimes supposed to show the fundamental randomness of reality. They are merely random with respect to natural selection. Natural selection is not random: it is the determinate result of sorting processes according to relative fitness. It is stochastic, in the sense that better engineered features can fail for reasons of probability (they may meet accidents unrelated to their fitness), but that poses no greater threat to the scientific nature of evolution than it does for, say, subatomic physics or information theory.

There are scientists and philosophers who think that probabilities represent a real indeterminacy in the world; that even if you had, in principle, full information about all causes for a system, it would still be possible only to predict the distribution curve rather than the outcome for any single object. This is called the propensity interpretation (Beatty and Finsen in Ruse 1989), and holds that real things have a real propensity to behave in a range of ways rather than a real set of properties that will specify a strict determined outcome. Whether this is true or not is not relevant to evolution as such, for if it is true, then it is true of everything, and not just living things.

Different Senses of Chance

We need to distinguish between two senses of "random": the one kind that involves a total break in the causal chain, and in which the event is essentially chaotic; the other that requires only unpredictability, such as the decay of unstable atoms, or Brownian motion, but which remains a caused event. These get confused all the time. There is nothing about changes in a genome or a gene pool that is random in the first sense, but much of the second sense. For example, shuffling a deck of cards results in a properly physical process of the rearrangement of each card, yet there is no real way to predict the order of a random shuffle. Cards don't just materialise in place, but you don't know what you will end up with (unless you bias the shuffling so it isn't random).

Gould [1993: 396f] has written about the different senses of "random" and "chance" in science:


"In ordinary English, a random event is one without order, predicatability or pattern. The word connotes disaggregation, falling apart, formless anarchy, and fear. Yet, ironically, the scientific sense of random conveys a precisely opposite set of associations. A phenomenon governed by chance yields maximal simplicity, order and predictability--at least in the long run. ... Thus, if you wish to understand patterns of long historical sequences, pray for randomness."

On the other hand, the term "randomness" as applied to mutation often refers to the lack of correspondence of phenotypic effect with the stimulus and with the actual or the adaptive direction of evolution. ... It is a well known fact, emphasized over and over again in discussions of genetics and evolution, that the vast majority of known mutations are inadaptive. ...

----I mostly just pasted the parts regarding chance. You can read the full essay in the link above. I hope this discussion has been settled now.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 04:20   #69
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
----I mostly just pasted the parts regarding chance. You can read the full essay in the link above. I hope this discussion has been settled now.
Who, or what, do you think you're arguing against?
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 05:27   #70
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Who, or what, do you think you're arguing against?
He's arguing against logic, science, and common sense...apparently he doesn't understand these are the three things that you can't really argue against and have a chance of winning.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 11:33   #71
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I don't study mathmatics or physics so providing calculation is actually beyond my scope.
So what you're saying is that you don't understand what you're arguing against but golly gosh you're going to shout and scream and rant and rave anyway?

Yes, good luck with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
What I am getting at is that things have a tendancy to fall into place
They really don't. The universe is getting less and less organised, constantly. Second law of thermodynamics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Of course. Thats the way it was set up.
Pity they're wrong then, isn't it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Do you really need a calculation to tell you that before you play a game of chess you need pieces and a chessboard?
Well, if the only thing you had to base your description of the start of a game of chess on was a collection of the final positions of, say, games of chess between grand masters, then yes. You would have to use stochastic analysis to find out how the board was laid out in the first place.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 11:36   #72
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I mostly just pasted the parts regarding chance. You can read the full essay in the link above. I hope this discussion has been settled now.
I don't know what discussion you think we're having, but by god you're not having the same one as the rest of the universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Who, or what, do you think you're arguing against?
Even if what he had posted had been relevent, I'd still argue that it was incorrect. I do not think there is suffficient evidence for determinancy in genetic mutation to the level which he is assuming.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 10 Nov 2006 at 11:41.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 11:40   #73
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I am sorry that you feel that way. My parents deeply loved each other and their desire to have me as a child occured long before my conception. My father was distinctly aware of the moment of my conception and his love for me began well before I was born. I was not random by any means. I was chosen. There are people in this world that feel that maybe they were a mistake because they did not receive the love they needed from their parents. It's easy to see why alot of people feel random but it's a misconception based on emotional need.
Why, do we need to get into the thing about the flower and the bee? You know, the "out of all those possible cells that could have been concieved, it was me!" thing. "I won the race, I am a winner!", and all that?
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 14:21   #74
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Re: Are you ready?

oh dear god make it stop
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 14:49   #75
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So what you're saying is that you don't understand what you're arguing against but golly gosh you're going to shout and scream and rant and rave anyway?

Yes, good luck with that.
I am so sorry. You are unable to distinguish between understanding and calculation. Perhaps a few more years at university can correct that. Here are some definitions to help you:

understanding
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
un‧der‧stand  /ˌʌndərˈstænd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-der-stand] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -stood, -stand‧ing.

–verb (used with object) 1. to perceive the meaning of; grasp the idea of; comprehend: to understand Spanish; I didn't understand your question.
2. to be thoroughly familiar with; apprehend clearly the character, nature, or subtleties of: to understand a trade.
3. to assign a meaning to; interpret: He understood her suggestion as a complaint.
4. to grasp the significance, implications, or importance of: He does not understand responsibility.
5. to regard as firmly communicated; take as agreed or settled: I understand that you will repay this loan in 30 days.
6. to learn or hear: I understand that you are going out of town.
7. to accept as true; believe: I understand that you are trying to be truthful, but you are wrong.
8. to construe in a particular way: You are to understand the phrase literally.
9. to supply mentally (something that is not expressed).
–verb (used without object) 10. to perceive what is meant; grasp the information conveyed: She told them about it in simple words, hoping they would understand.
11. to accept tolerantly or sympathetically: If you can't do it, I'll understand.
12. to have knowledge or background, as on a particular subject: He understands about boats.
13. to have a systematic interpretation or rationale, as in a field or area of knowledge: He can repeat every rule in the book, but he just doesn't understand.


calculation
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cal‧cu‧la‧tion  /ˌkælkyəˈleɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kal-kyuh-ley-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. the act or process of calculating; computation.
2. the result or product of calculating: His calculations agree with ours.
3. an estimate based on the known facts; forecast: Her calculation of the building costs proved quite accurate.
4. forethought; prior or careful planning.
5. scheming selfishness.

It really will get better. Be Blessed.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 15:01   #76
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Re: Are you ready?

Travler, are you honest to god not just trolling?
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 15:17   #77
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I am so sorry. You are unable to distinguish between understanding and calculation.
You cannot understand the physics unless you understand the maths. If you're not trolling, you clearly do not have a clue what physics is or what it does or how it works.

The best part of that post was the "a few more years at university" thing, given that, as physics becomes more advanced, it approaches a loss of all meaningful qualitative analysis.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 17:40   #78
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
hay i thought there was stuff about penitence and forgiveness in this christianity business.

i heard some people survive this end of the world business as well?
It's "business" indeed; it's all about the money.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 17:41   #79
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The following information comes from Evolution and Chance

"Mutation is random chance. Evolution (the force which acts on mutation) is not."

That's what that link says (i think) and it's correct.

I don't understand why you're using it to argue your point though.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 17:46   #80
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Re: Are you ready?

Also there's got to be a web page out there devoted to explaining the whole evolution thing surely (i mean from a debunking the Christian "it's all too complicated" argument). It would explain current thinking on how RNA synthesis was kicked off, how basic cells were then formed, how the first organism was formed and then how those organisms evolved into different organisms. It would also explain statistical chance.

If there's not a web page like that out there then somebody needs to make one if only to stop these ****ing retarded arguments on the second post of a thread by the enlightened, logical, rational side posting a link to the page.
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Unread 10 Nov 2006, 18:32   #81
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Wakey....welcome to the world of grey. God's word is absolute and few believers will say that it is not. The Bible is constantly being reviewed and translated to find ALL the meanings and messages contained. It's not so much a different interpretation as more of a discovery of previously overlooked significance.
if the meaning in the bible is gods word and gods word is absolute why does the bible constantly need to be translated
also gods word cannot be absolute because he gave humans free will , if he wanted his word to be absolute he would not have done that

im sure if we lookk in the bible somewhere there will be a phrase or a passage that tells you the internet is evil and against god ,
i hope and pray that you find it real soon
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 00:06   #82
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Re: Are you ready?

For the love of your imaginary friend, shut the hell up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your ignorance is PAINFUL. You said yourself that you don't understand physics. Why are you trying to argue with people who DO know about physics? Go and read some physics textbooks until you understand them. If you can't do that, read Dawkins' book. Someone once told me about a book that they say totally turned their world upside down and revolutionised their beliefs. All I can say is they must have based their beliefs on who threatened them the most with damnation, rather than on evidence. I read the book in question so that I could have a meaningful discussion about it, and all I had to say afterwards was: why does one of his so-called experts claimed to have a D. D. from an Oxford College that, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't actually exist? Now, even if it does exist, I am an Oxford person and no one else here in Oxford has heard of Emmanuel College, surely people who don't study here wouldn't know the place either. Maybe it did exist once, but the point is why have all these people read and accepted this expert's opinion without even checking if he has the qualifications that he claims? The mind boggles.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 00:41   #83
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
For the love of your imaginary friend, shut the hell up!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Sorry but I live in a country where we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH so no that will NEVER happen. I am getting rather tired of the censorship against values and morality.
Your ignorance is PAINFUL. You said yourself that you don't understand physics. Why are you trying to argue with people who DO know about physics?
I was arguing a basic principle. You don't have to be a genius to see how precise the universe is but you do have to be a moron to believe in random chance. God did not gamble with eternity and one day science will prove that once the scientists stop trying to disprove God.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 00:59   #84
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Re: Are you ready?

I cant believe you still preach around here on a "scare the children" level. By now, I can truely relate to yahwe wanting you banned using the "advertisement" clause. Thats all you do with these postings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
God did not gamble with eternity and one day science will prove that once the scientists stop trying to disprove God.
You Sir, have a fundamentaly flawed misunderstanding of science.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 01:09   #85
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
I cant believe you still preach around here on a "scare the children" level. By now, I can truely relate to yahwe wanting you banned using the "advertisement" clause. Thats all you do with these postings.
I still want to know what I am advertising. What product am I trying to sell. Belief? You ready to put a price on that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
You Sir, have a fundamentaly flawed misunderstanding of science.
Okey dokey :-P

Truely if there was such a thing as random chance the odds are the people who believe in it would be wrong.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 01:32   #86
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Truely if there was such a thing as random chance the odds are the people who believe in it would be wrong.
Apart from having no way to verify that statement, how would that prove the existance of God?
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 01:48   #87
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I still want to know what I am advertising. What product am I trying to sell. Belief? You ready to put a price on that?
Ted Haggard made millions selling his belief on television. In fact I gather that is the primary aim of the money spinning evangelical movement. I suspect your happy clappy church is no different.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:00   #88
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Ted Haggard made millions selling his belief on television. In fact I gather that is the primary aim of the money spinning evangelical movement. I suspect your happy clappy church is no different.
You are right. I have some different beliefs on tithing. The church thinks you should tithe 10% of your income before taxes. I think that is wrong. You are supposed to tithe 10% of your gain. If you still owe for rent/mortgage, utilities, food, parking, insurance, and all your actual needs then you how can you afford to tithe when you are in debt? I think you should tithe 10% of your gain after taxes and after you have paid the bills. This of course leaves little for the church but it's much closer to what the Bible states about tithing and being in debt.

If you do think I am advertising send me a private message so I can tell you where to send the checks. You can make it out to the "Travler would like to get rich scheme by extorting money out of non-believers fund."
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:05   #89
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Sorry but I live in a country where we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH so no that will NEVER happen. I am getting rather tired of the censorship against values and morality.

I was arguing a basic principle. You don't have to be a genius to see how precise the universe is but you do have to be a moron to believe in random chance. God did not gamble with eternity and one day science will prove that once the scientists stop trying to disprove God.
In my humble (but extremely well-informed) opinion, you do not know enough about physics to argue anything about the basic priciples of it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion on matters that are matters of opinion, but you are saying things that are demonstrably false.

Free speech is fine, but you should be aware that you sound like an idiot. I am exercising my right* to free speech when I tell you that I think you are formidably stupid.

You can say what you like about your personal moral codes, but I recommend that you stay the hell away from physics.

In answer to your post:

1. What in God's name do you mean by 'how precise the universe is'?
2. You have to be a moron to make the statement 'you do have to be a moron to believe in random chance'. What are you basing that on? Don't even get me started on quantum mechanics.
3. Science will never prove the existence of the God you believe in, because Christianity is faith-based. A fundamental part of your religion is that you're supposed to believe without proof. If God's existence can be proven, the God whose existence is proven is not the God you worship.
4. Scientists are not out to prove that God doesn't exist. I personally, as a scientist, do not believe in the non-existence of God. The scientific method makes no assumptions about the existence of God.

*As a side note, I mean the right extended to me by society. I don't actually believe in rights, per se.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:10   #90
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Re: Are you ready?

I suggest Travler turn his computer off right now, since the computer is based on science and not belif.

Hurry, Travler, hurry!
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:11   #91
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Re: Are you ready?

I have found that intelligent people don't waste their time telling other people they are stupid.

If you really think they are stupid, you won't accomplish anything. Essentially you don't cure a person of stupidity by bringing it to their attention.

One either instructs or ignores.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:18   #92
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Sorry but I live in a country where we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH so no that will NEVER happen. I am getting rather tired of the censorship against values and morality.
Two issues spring to mind here.

The first is that this isn't America, and this isn't a democracy. This is a dictatorship, and as such any rights you have outside is somewhat irrelevent.

The second is that a user telling you to "shut up" isn't censorship. Actually stopping you saying something is censorship; telling you to "shut up" is an exercise in free speech itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I was arguing a basic principle. You don't have to be a genius to see how precise the universe is but you do have to be a moron to believe in random chance.
If we were having this conversation two hundred years ago, I might have agreed with you. However, Physics, unlike, say, most religions, moves on.

Whilst the Bell test experiments are not yet perfect (although one which definitively violates (or not) a Bell inequality should be either have been done already or be done in the near future, I haven't been keeping up) the tests have thus far been inconsistent with Einstein's concept of "local realism" (in which quantum phenomenon are deterministic, but are dependent on factors we are currently unable to measure), implying that the universe is indeed based upon random events.

A lot of very clever men have made a lot of very clever experiments based upon very clever mathematics that lets us determine these things. When you can understand the previous paragraph and comment upon the relevant areas of discussion it invokes (which, typically, involve a lot of mathematics) then this conversation can continue.

Unfortunately, you don't appear to have much of a grounding in either mathematics or physics, so if you start now I will be waiting several years. I'm patient, I've been here since before I matriculated. Until you catch up with the rest of the class, however, I'll be forced to quote the above any time you bring up the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
God did not gamble with eternity and one day science will prove that once the scientists stop trying to disprove God.
No scientist is trying to disprove God. The utter lack of proof of God makes it impossible for God to be said, scientifically, to exist; this is different.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:37   #93
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Re: Are you ready?

Are you calling yourself stupid?

I'm not telling him that he's stupid because I believe it will stop him being stupid. If there is the smallest possiblity that bringing to his attention the fact that he sounds like an idiot will stop him spouting this shite, then it's worth the effort. If I can save one individual from being indoctrinated by his potentially very dangerous nonsense, then it's worth it.

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Originally Posted by dda
I have found that intelligent people don't waste their time telling other people they are stupid.

If you really think they are stupid, you won't accomplish anything. Essentially you don't cure a person of stupidity by bringing it to their attention.

One either instructs or ignores.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:39   #94
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I have found that intelligent people don't waste their time telling other people they are stupid.

If you really think they are stupid, you won't accomplish anything. Essentially you don't cure a person of stupidity by bringing it to their attention.

One either instructs or ignores.
I am long past trying to instruct Travler. It's a worthless endeavour; I can, however, instruct people who aren't idiots who read the thread.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 02:51   #95
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I was arguing a basic principle. You don't have to be a genius to see how precise the universe is but you do have to be a moron to believe in random chance. God did not gamble with eternity and one day science will prove that once the scientists stop trying to disprove God.
they arent trying to disprove god, thats the amusing thing about it.
only the die hard zealots who cannot grasp reason nor logic believe this, and see science as a threat to the imaginary world they have constructed in their minds and will become increasingly adversarial and indeed violent in some cases to protect it.

At best - science decreases the number of things which can be attributed solely to an existance of one since we can demonstrate the ability to do it ourselves or explain how it can be done.
It may take away from the grandeur of god, if there is one but it certainly doesnt force you to conclude the nonexistance of one.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 03:03   #96
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Re: Are you ready?

All this travler flaming made me unignore him again Shame on you!
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 03:19   #97
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Re: Are you ready?

I don't see why Travler sees 'science' and god as two opposites of eachother
They seem to go very well hand in hand
From a religious point of view science should be nothing more then proving what god created and how it's working out

Sure some things are proven and some are just theories,
but I don't know any christians who actually doubt evolution tbfh


edit: I just read up to read the exact words of Travler and I actually had one question

If every particle affects eachother without random factor according to god's masterplan
then theirs actually no such thing as free will amirite? Only the illusion of free will
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Last edited by Alessio; 12 Nov 2006 at 03:59.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 03:21   #98
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Re: Are you ready?

I live with a christian who doubts evolution, Alessio.
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 03:22   #99
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Re: Are you ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
I live with a christian who doubts evolution, Alessio.
Your so lucky <3
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Unread 12 Nov 2006, 03:34   #100
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Re: Are you ready?

Hell is where everyone thinks like Travler.


Really, my eyes bleed, the screaming in my head doesn't stop and reason is giving up on someone and it ain't me.

He says he is using logic, while he constantly breaks the rules of logic. He's playing a whole different game here.
He tells you what rules to play, you play using those rules, defeat him and then he makes up new rules. What you are forgetting that for him it is not about the rules, but that in the end, he is right and you are wrong and there is nothing you can say to change his mind.

So basically, religious logic is a complete travestety of mathematical logic. Same words, complete different interpretation. The only thing I know is that using his 'rules' you get a very messy world open to interpretation, while using maths you get a verifiable, objective playing field where there are no grey areas, unless the areas are defined as grey.
Chosing religion is chosing chaos. It's chosing unpredictability. It is chosing chance.
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