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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 13:01   #1
Allfather
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Change or remove xp

Howdy.

Like most people, i do not like the idea of how xp works, and would prefer if it went poof into the dark. HOWEVER, if we are keeping it, atleast change it so you get xp for killing shippies, not just capping roids.

This is a wargame, not a farmsimulator.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 14:13   #2
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Re: Change or remove xp

I don't like the fact that us caths who self cover alot don't get XP for doing so, while at least for other races they can get ships/salvage.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 14:16   #3
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Re: Change or remove xp

however, giving XP for killing ships means that "unneccessary" destruction of people's fleets is encouraged; eg, all the smallest players in the gal will as soon as they build ships receive incoming just so people can kill those ships for the XP (in addition to the stupidity of launching a fleet to capture 17 roids). Further, EMP ships dont kill, Steal ships dont kill, making it harder for Caths and Ziks to get XP. Also, "good" fleets dont really do much killing* instead, relying on weaknesses in enemy fleet composition to get through - XP for killing ships will do nothing to promote this.

Put simply, all your suggestion does is promote more bashing in this game. Is that a good thing? i'm thinking that it isnt.

*the exception is perhaps Xan, where blowing holes in the enemy fleet FIRST permits them to get through
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 14:44   #4
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Re: Change or remove xp

Err.. have you played this round? Xan does no longer have many first initiative ships
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 15:16   #5
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Re: Change or remove xp

The races have generally gone away from their ideals tbh. Like Terran firing last but being able to take a lot of shit (out of the damage dealing ships) except the pegasus but this doesn't happen. Xan strike hard, strike fast then strike first has gone out the window pretty much. Cathaar in a way have become like last rounds etd. Zik were supposed to lose a lot but then regain most of it if not all by stealing value. Only etd seem to be keeping to what they're about.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 16:29   #6
Allfather
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Re: Change or remove xp

Cant be that hard to make it so what xan and compares kill also applies to what cath stuns?.
Bashing?
The game now is simple: you roid, loose ships and grow.
There is no incentive at all to actually play it as a war game where you KILL your enemy.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 16:37   #7
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
Cant be that hard to make it so what xan and compares kill also applies to what cath stuns?.
Bashing?
The game now is simple: you roid, loose ships and grow.
There is no incentive at all to actually play it as a war game where you KILL your enemy.
The balance of playabilty comes in question here the way i see it. Is it fun playing a game when you are the one that get killed?
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 18:03   #8
Allfather
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Re: Change or remove xp

Dont see the problem with getting fleets killed?
Its a wargame, half of it is attacking and rebuilding.

Atm its different:
1) defend & get xp (and resources)
2) Pod someone, get xp.

Seems abit weak to me
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 18:28   #9
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Re: Change or remove xp

Would be more logical if you gained 'experience' from all battles regardless if you cap roids or not. The amount depending on how well you did and the amount of fleets/ships present. But personally I think the whole xp system should be removed. My 2 cent.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 18:40   #10
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Re: Change or remove xp

Surely killing someones fleet is still useful as it stops them going out roiding or defending other people's roids.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 18:41   #11
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Re: Change or remove xp

...If you're both in alliances that are at war...
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 19:50   #12
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Re: Change or remove xp

xp is all fine, makes the strong planets fight each other instead of nap each other and bashing downwards.

actually I always thought of wolfpack as having been / being the first xp-style players in the game.

but if youre in for a change, thats okies, like it was proposed to be a multiplier for value, from 50% to maybe 200 or 300% depending on same ratios (average value/score of the targets compared to your own) as it is now.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 22:31   #13
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Re: Change or remove xp

i would like to point out, once you have some. Its ****ing near impossible to get more XP.

I landed 5k XP first attacks.

9 Days later i have 6.3k this is from defending. Its crap.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 00:02   #14
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Re: Change or remove xp

that all depends on if you keep your roids, if you dont you dont gain much value and then you more easy can get more xp
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 02:05   #15
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Re: Change or remove xp

this is supposed to be an intergalactic war game. To that end the main focus of the game should be on building up a hugezor fleet of ships as i imagine any respectable lord/emporer of a planet would in an intergalactic war situation. Xp should only be a mechanism used to stop bigger people hitting downwards, as opposed to a quick way of getting relatively large score gains. The game has become lost in silly intricacies (probably spelt that wrong) and that is why the player base is getting smaller. if you dont know the game already, why the hell would you bother to learn when there is f all actual fleet on fleet engagements going on? where do you get to fight? majority of attacks result in either a recall, or the planet u attack running its fleets? all smells a bit like the league of nations/UN to me. god know how to solve this, i leave that up to people who know what they are doing. perhaps the introduction of xp for individual ships if they have survived a battle? obv i have no idea about the difficulties in implementing this but it may encourage people to fight each other a bit more and stop n00bs from trying to steal my lovely roids. Theres my drunken 2 cents.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 07:18   #16
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Re: Change or remove xp

People recall so much because ships are so valuable; not only their value in terms of score, but also having a fleet is the only way to get more score (and/or XP) in addition to defending what you have.

Thus, your fleet is your most valuable asset in the universe. So, crashing your fleet does tremendous damage to your planet's ranking as well as gaining future score (which your enemies can still do).

So, the only way to have more 'engagements' is to make ships and fleet less valuable to other activities, as then it doesnt matter so much if you loose your fleet.

The only way i can see that happning, is changing PA into Sim Planet, where you have to manage a diverse economy, and the military branch of that economy would only be up to 10% of your planet's value, and the major source of income cant be achieved through military intervention.

So, the only way to have more battles in pa is to make PA no longer a wargame.

o_O
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 19:30   #17
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
So, the only way to have more 'engagements' is to make ships and fleet less valuable to other activities, as then it doesnt matter so much if you loose your fleet.
Making fleets less valuable is possible without losing the wargame aspect of PA. Add more ways of combat, like:
- covert ops: already implemented in PA, make covert ops more powerful
- new covert op "incite uprising", makes some % of population unsusable for engineering
- ground combat: transporters which unload troops on an enemy planet[/indent]
- troops stay on planet and do damage each tick to constructions
- transporters have a chance of sneaking past the enemy's fleet
- geometry: add strategic chokepoints
- galaxies form a map
- you may colonize (a limited number of) planets
- fleets have a limited range
- or alternatively, something like a virtual planet for each galaxy, where you can place fleets, and target planets in that galaxy with lower eta

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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 19:52   #18
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Re: Change or remove xp

Real prob is when a person has the time to be active makes a big xp fleet of xan frigs and attacks. He may do major damage to someone and lose a lot of fleet but he barely cares and can just quit while the person who lost a lot of their fleet will have suffered a major setback.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 23:50   #19
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
People recall so much because ships are so valuable; not only their value in terms of score, but also having a fleet is the only way to get more score (and/or XP) in addition to defending what you have.

Thus, your fleet is your most valuable asset in the universe. So, crashing your fleet does tremendous damage to your planet's ranking as well as gaining future score (which your enemies can still do).

So, the only way to have more 'engagements' is to make ships and fleet less valuable to other activities, as then it doesnt matter so much if you loose your fleet.

The only way i can see that happning, is changing PA into Sim Planet, where you have to manage a diverse economy, and the military branch of that economy would only be up to 10% of your planet's value, and the major source of income cant be achieved through military intervention.

So, the only way to have more battles in pa is to make PA no longer a wargame.

o_O
drunk again but here i go:

i dont contest the value of fleets, if anything the idea of giving fleets xp makes them even more valuable. But the unavoidable problem is the people and alliances are now too dependant on avoiding conflict. The only time it happens now is if u sleep in and dont recall (me this morning bb fr) or if someone does the same against you. This round we have seen shippies becoming cheaper, which means you can have thousands. This is a nice change but really its only a bandage on a sucking chest wound. The fighting aspect of the game is lost, we might as well be playing a game with a calculator as mathematics seems to be all that is left. Imho, make ships stats far simpler. maybe even introduce fleet interceptions. I.e a planet with incs can send a portion of a fleet to set an 'ambush' for an incoming fleet at eta 4 for example. The cost to the defending planet is that those ships arent there to defend roids when the attacking fleet lands, however when the ambush occurs the defending ships have full init (i.e those ships fire before all others). At the moment there arent enough tactical options open to individual planets, that is only available to alliances and thus alliance HC's. And when it comes down to it, at the top level that is about 15 people. The rest of us are just attacking/recalling and sending def. Where is the uncertainty? this is a wargame afterall, and surely one of the main characteristics of war is uncertainty.

(/making no sense and rambling now, i will post sober on this issue at some point)
and for the record, I think pa team are doing well with a really difficult problem (making lots of numbers interesting to real people.)
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 08:51   #20
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Re: Change or remove xp

Maybe allfather and the rest of the wolfpack crew would like to read my suggestion regarding score instead of trying to start a discussion that was "undecided" for about a gazillion times now. Both sides arguments have been heard and no side could win an upper hand.
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 09:09   #21
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Re: Change or remove xp

Yes, I'm wp hc, i admit it
We allied CT so ph33r us!
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 12:28   #22
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Re: Change or remove xp

sorry heartless, wudnt wanna steal your thunder.
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 13:11   #23
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Re: Change or remove xp

My main problem with XP is that it is easy for low value players to get XP, but harder for higher value players who look after their fleets.

The idea behind this ofcourse, to reduce bashing and help 'newbie' players. However, I feel that Appocomaster's proposed exponential formula in round 17 or so would have dealt with this better.

XP given was related to how much you already had, thus serial XPers had reduced gains later in the round.
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 15:15   #24
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Re: Change or remove xp

I think the current XP setup is fine. It encourages hitting larger targets. Value is still worth more and pays in the end. I doubt you will see an XP ho winning the game.

If you want to discourage fleet crashing for xp perhaps a percentage could be subtracted from xp.

ex: If you loose 50% ships in an attack, you xp gain is cut by 20% (4% xp loss for every 10%ship loss)

This will nudge people in the other direction without killing a legitimate (yet questionable) strategy in gameplay.
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 15:21   #25
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Re: Change or remove xp

Its a wargame, your supposed to kill your targets.
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 15:34   #26
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
Its a wargame, your supposed to kill your targets.
You still can kill your targets.
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 15:41   #27
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
Its a wargame, your supposed to kill your targets.
Yes we got that the first 10x's you mentioned it.

Bashing planets would kill the game. It would become a game of "smear the q***r" (i love that title)
and less a game of strategy.
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Unread 30 Apr 2007, 12:32   #28
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Re: Change or remove xp

Lately I get more xp from a single tick of ingal def, than landing for 90 roids
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Unread 30 Apr 2007, 13:32   #29
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Re: Change or remove xp

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Originally Posted by Gio2k
Lately I get more xp from a single tick of ingal def, than landing for 90 roids
n00b bashing again?! o_O

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Unread 30 Apr 2007, 14:15   #30
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
You still can kill your targets.
I do, a few days ago i knocked 80,000 ships out just cause it was fun
But woulda been nice with xp for it
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Unread 2 May 2007, 08:11   #31
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Re: Change or remove xp

I would really like to see (And I don't know if this is popular with anyone at all) XP from defense based on how big fleet you sent, and how much effect your defense actually had on the battle. Obviously basing XP from attacks on the same criteria will not work, it will encourage people to hit downwards and so on. However, encouraging people to actively defend each other and take risks in their attacks, wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?

Unless, of course, they can actually figure out a way to implement Heartless' suggestion regarding score, something which would already be a lot better.
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Unread 2 May 2007, 09:30   #32
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Re: Change or remove xp

Then do it simple:
You get xp on attacks only if your target is either 80% of your size or bigger.
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Unread 2 May 2007, 13:39   #33
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
n00b bashing again?! o_O

Probably. Did i bash you?
Actually, the only bashing i have gotten to do was defending (myself, surprisingly). All my attacks have only taken roids, bar one.
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Unread 2 May 2007, 20:31   #34
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Re: Change or remove xp

hey all just want to make a quick note on xp this round. It takes more skill to land on a planet cap full roids with the person being more than twice your value than to attack lower value players just get yourself up to your max roid mining res. Unfortunately this is the by product when the game becomes more value based. Its a Ultimate Newbie said "n00b bashing again?! o_O"
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Unread 3 May 2007, 00:56   #35
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Re: Change or remove xp

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
hey all just want to make a quick note on xp this round. It takes more skill to land on a planet cap full roids with the person being more than twice your value than to attack lower value players just get yourself up to your max roid mining res. Unfortunately this is the by product when the game becomes more value based. Its a Ultimate Newbie said "n00b bashing again?! o_O"
No it doesn't. Hitting a 800k value xan is easier for a 400k cath playing for xp, than for a 1m score zik.
Once your value grows big enough, you have no chance but hit players on the upper value levels, which are more likely to get defence. Top value players don't even have the luxury of picking their targets according to how much xp they can get.
On the other side, if you are an xp player with an attack-only fleet and lowish value, you can still hit targets which give you good xp, and are less likely to get defence.
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