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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 23:43   #101
H1TMANish
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Lets hope JBG clearly stated how you would be scanning and covopping for Asc in Des then and not just tell MH you werent going to attack and defend together - Somehow i doubt he did that.

Although i find it fantastic that after a full days admitting the breaches of the rules by serveral of your members your the first to actually try and deny it, it shows atleast some of you realise the problem.
I do not see how the cov op planets are breeching the rules, they decided to play covops a while ago (or some sk planets but had to adapt after sks were nerfed). They chose this because they wanted to play this way, not because they wanted to use it to aid Ascendancy. They were of the opinion it would be funny, perhaps against the spirit of the game but this is not the arguement. They choose their own targets, pretty much anyone in t30 non asc. last time i checked, NAPs were not against the rules. Neither alliance has planets solely dedicated to repeated actions to benefit the other.

Additionally, Ascendancy scanners are in Ascendancy tag, so i do not see the problem here, either. Having said this, there is perhaps an issue with the Descendancy few who are playing a "normal" round who can have access to the Ascendancy scans in coop attacts (queue *scendancy hate for mentioning this). I am however fairly confident that in the past alliances have shared scans when cooperating and attacking the same galaxy (although i can not substantiate this).

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyBGood
I'm aware this is a contentious issue so pre-round I talked it through briefly with fiery and, considering the fact issues may arise later we were able to agree that if we somehow did cross the "line" in an as yet unforeseen way we'd be informed by the multihunters what was wrong.
I thoroughly expect some movement on the issue of sharing scans, especially if scans move from Descendancy to Ascendancy, and mainly on a request basis (as opposed to when cooperating on raids). As for covops, i do not think it is particularly difficult to understand that some of the Descendancy massiv wished to play in this fashion as the game allows, and that they wanted to do this for their own enjoyment not for the sole purpose of benefitting another alliance.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 23:52   #102
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
it seems strange that the playerbase has realised the effect of the improved covert operation effectivity changes, but the game team hasn't.
I think that to say that "the playerbase" has realised the effect of the improved cov ops is stretching it a bit. I chose to go for cov ops halfway during last round, when I noticed how much income my bankhacks were generating, and not after the changes to cov ops, as I'm sure would many prefer to believe.

I was as surprised at their strength when I started hitting scanners as everyone else was. In fact, there's still a rather large portion of the players (even scanners) that still refuse to build security centers, even now. This makes me assume they too do not yet realise what's happening.

In conclusion, seeing how the majority of the community has failed to realise this issue before the round started, I'm neither surprised nor disappointed that PA Team has made the same mistake. I do hope they will fix it for next round. And by "fixing it" I don't mean "completely ruining it", but actually fixing it: making it a viable strategy, without turning the entire round into a race of whoever can recruit the most cov oppers. See an earlier post of mine for what I think is an adequate solution.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 23:55   #103
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Re: Cov Ops

So by pure random luck all the covoppers joined des and nearly all the normal players joined asc?

Its hard to believe, it looks organsed and intended. Besides its not just friends its actual members of the same alliance during privious rounds that now has split into 2 tags doing a proforma nap while in reality they do share goals and interests.

Besides there is no difference between doing scans or covops as according to the support planet rules and even though you claim that the covoppers doesnt act on behalf of asc they are defacto working in the interest of asc and there by aiding asc postively.

Quote:
I do hope they will fix it for next round. And by "fixing it" I don't mean "completely ruining it", but actually fixing it: making it a viable strategy,
Seeing how fleet catching was completely ruined after R19 and now seeing how feudalism, which was a ziks way of actually having a bit of leverage towards doing steals on attacks and not loose value, is now also mamed it seems to me that alternative strategies are not really intended by pa team.
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Unread 29 Jun 2007, 23:59   #104
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Today remy stated that it was a clear violation of the alliance limit rules:
Quote:
<+remy|afk> scanning for an alliance whilst not intag is a breach of the alliance limit
You do realize that this "breach" has happened countless times since the support rule was introduced, yes?

Sharing targets and scans between cooperating alliances pretty much -defines- the term "alliance cooperation" nowdays (since the defence has at first been made difficult, and later illegal as well).
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 00:05   #105
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
In conclusion, seeing how the majority of the community has failed to realise this issue before the round started, I'm neither surprised nor disappointed that PA Team has made the same mistake. I do hope they will fix it for next round.
Indeed. Much agreed. The fact that there seems to be a reasonably large chunk of players (not only in Descendancy) that have realized the power of these reformed covert operations (which were unarguably very poorly informed of) given that the game administaration team. I guess, for this round, it's too late to try clean the mess when the shit has already hit the fan.

For next round, I'm expecting an equally strong counter.
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 01:25   #106
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
So by pure random luck all the covoppers joined des and nearly all the normal players joined asc?
No, as already mentioned Descendancy was set up as an alternative for less active players as an alliance in its own right. An alliance to, put simply, dick around and be a pain in the arse. Its intentions are seperate from Ascendancy, and although the intentions may not be in good spirits, they are legal. Many of the covoppers actually intended to become sk planets but because sks were nerferd, they changed their plans and went covop instead, hence the "large" number of covoppers. *I think* the main reason for choosing this style of play was to continue lurking on the irc network and play in a way much less time demanding (even my Asc standards) and pratt about. I could well be wrong on this though.

[Edit]That is my arguement, some people are so far on the "Asc are all cheaters ban them lot of 'em" bandwagon that they will not listen to rational debate, and there is no point continuing to repeat myself only to be ignored.

Last edited by H1TMANish; 30 Jun 2007 at 01:32.
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 01:59   #107
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
feudalism, which was a ziks way of actually having a bit of leverage towards doing steals on attacks and not loose value
Ok, third time's the charm. I'm not criticising, and I'm sure I'm worse at your native language, but the word is "maimed", not "mamed".
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 07:32   #108
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Re: Cov Ops

oh noes a school teacher! ;P
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 12:37   #109
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Re: Cov Ops

PA has been nothing more then a Find-the-loophole game for quite a few rounds now. Asc will bend and break every rule possible, but they are no different from other alliances. Find the loophole, exploit it to a maximum and tip the balance in your favor.

What did u guys expect?
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 12:40   #110
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Re: Cov Ops

oh god no. duo discovered the forums. :crymeariver:
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 12:42   #111
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Re: Cov Ops

Such behaviour is only encouraged by adding more and more pointless rules each round, from the hardcoded alliance limit to the rules directing where your fleets can and where they can't go.

(hi Agra )
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 12:50   #112
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talin
Such behaviour is only encouraged by adding more and more pointless rules each round, from the hardcoded alliance limit to the rules directing where your fleets can and where they can't go.

(hi Agra )
I could not agree more. Though *scendancy members are actually not just people which bend the game mechanics and exploit their loopholes, they are also the ones which deliver suggestions on how to solve the appearing issues. However, the main problem is that PA Team does not have the capability to incorporate those suggestions with a good vision on what the game should be, partly because they all have different visions on what it should be, on the other hand they consider some of the changes as too radical. I find that sad because round after round *scendancy people (and some people from other alliances) show that the current game mechanics are simply not going to work out properly - especially not now that PA Team adds a lot of complexity on top of it without actually considering how those new features would affect gameplay, or whether they are really needed.
From my point of view, *scendancy people will look for loopholes as long as pa team do not manage to come up with the correct approach of solving the problem (i.e. simplify instead of overcomplicating things, and see how the community behind the game can be encouraged to change their playing style).
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 12:55   #113
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Re: Cov Ops

hi koen hi Talin
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 14:02   #114
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
So by pure random luck all the covoppers joined des and nearly all the normal players joined asc?

Its hard to believe, it looks organsed and intended.
Jun 17 17:17:02 <JBG> what will you be doing?
Jun 17 17:17:24 <jesterina> development consulting
Jun 17 17:17:24 <JBG> i'm going to signup now and start descendancy incidentally
Jun 17 17:17:31 <jesterina> oh good plan

Clearly my organisational skills are somewhat lacking

Quote:
Besides its not just friends its actual members of the same alliance during privious rounds that now has split into 2 tags doing a proforma nap while in reality they do share goals and interests.
Titans and Legion managed to be separate alliances in r6!

Quote:
Besides there is no difference between doing scans or covops as according to the support planet rules and even though you claim that the covoppers doesnt act on behalf of asc they are defacto working in the interest of asc and there by aiding asc postively.
I've posted many detailed critiques of the support planet rule on this forum, the greenhills thread contains the most recent incarnations. Your last line is just ****tardery and would prohibit alliances ranked #2 and #3 from working together to take down #1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Lets hope JBG clearly stated how you would be scanning and covopping for Asc in Des then and not just tell MH you werent going to attack and defend together - Somehow i doubt he did that.
Here you are.
Jun 21 19:01:57 <Fiery> blocking isn't banned
Jun 21 19:02:00 <JBG> or can i get warned if i'm one offence away? by i i mean my alliance
Jun 21 19:02:07 <JBG> but blocking is attacking together constantly?
Jun 21 19:02:25 <Fiery> I have always considered blocking to be not attacking each other
Jun 21 19:02:30 <JBG> that's napping
Jun 21 19:02:34 <JBG> non-aggression pact
Jun 21 19:02:44 <JBG> blocks are more total co-operation
Jun 21 19:02:58 <JBG> sharing intel, scans, attacks, used to be defence back in pre-pax

Jun 21 19:15:45 <JBG> but the eula is vague and imprecise? can i get warnings if we go close to breaking the rules?
Jun 21 19:15:53 <Fiery> yes
Jun 21 19:15:59 <JBG> cool, thanks

And that was my last pm with a multihunter!
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 14:20   #115
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Re: Cov Ops

Its clear how you yourself realise how borderline this is to the rules when you have to ask to get a warning before you get closed.

But ok MH surely could be more clear on this and they clearly should have taken another stand on the issue.

But i still think its a simple breach of the alliance limit rules and i think its to lame such a big and experienced alliances as yours resort to such tactics.
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 14:24   #116
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Re: Cov Ops

Red-, JBG was totally open about what he was doing and consulted Fiery. How on earth can he possibly have been doing something wrong when he got an OK-signal from a multihunter?
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 14:50   #117
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Its clear how you yourself realise how borderline this is to the rules when you have to ask to get a warning before you get closed.
No, but once bitten twice shy. I've received warnings over things that at the time I thought were perfectly acceptable. The bottom line here is I don't know what the rules actually prohibit. I went and asked the multihunters precisely so I would know but fiery couldn't actually tell me. However the general gist of what we are doing was explained and I was told I could get a warning in case we did go close to breaking the rules.

Quote:
But i still think its a simple breach of the alliance limit rules and i think its to lame such a big and experienced alliances as yours resort to such tactics.
"Tactics". The only reason descendancy was setup, and I should know being as I was the person who set it up, was because more people wanted to play the ascendancy way than could play under one tag. There was no other aim to it. To be honest there's just not enough top-level organisation to have aims.
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Unread 30 Jun 2007, 18:42   #118
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Re: Cov Ops

What has Pa Descended into
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 00:15   #119
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Re: Cov Ops

I dunno, I was away the last 6-8 days hence why I'm in Descendancy. Even more chilled than Ascendancy! (Join us, not them etc.)
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 00:31   #120
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Re: Cov Ops

well has anyone managed to check (if its even possible) if any of the desc covoppers have actually targetted any asc planets even? cos if they have then i would assume thats pretty strong evidence that they are not being given targets by asc's orders or whatever it is people are implying here.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 01:34   #121
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Re: Cov Ops

No, we are not targetting Ascendancy planets, If you'd read JBG's posts you would've known this. There has been the accidential friendly fire though (sorry again DeloS!).

P.S.
Has anyone noticed there are only a few *scendancy cov oppers in the cov ops top20? In what alliances are the other ones? Perhaps (and I'm going out on a limb here!) in your own alliances, you bunch of hypocrits?
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 02:03   #122
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMoose
well has anyone managed to check (if its even possible) if any of the desc covoppers have actually targetted any asc planets even? cos if they have then i would assume thats pretty strong evidence that they are not being given targets by asc's orders or whatever it is people are implying here.
We don't give any orders. Never have, never will. NQP.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 14:51   #123
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Re: Cov Ops

I've stayed out of this discussion/argument for quite some time now, however i feel that i'll add my point of view. Firstly, i think i'll need to declare some conflict of interest, as i'm a Vision HC and it was Vision scanners (lo CBA) who were amongst the noisiest in expressing themselves earlier. Mind you, they werent directed to complain by the alliance, and all that other disclaimer crap.


Anyway, From what i've read (which i dont think is all of it yet), there seems to be a few areas of consternation.

The first amongst these is whether Ascendency/Descendency are in breach of the Support Planet(s) rule, as was initially suggested. It was mentioned before in this thread that alliances going over their planet limits hasnt been penalised severely in the past, although this doesnt mean that the Support planet rule hasnt been breached. Whilst i havent seen a/the log from JBG's conversation with fiery regarding what she exactly cleared and didnt clear (that log would be lovely if you've got it JBG - just for clarity's sake), my understanding of the Support planet rule's intepretation and execution of the rule is something along the lines of the following - if said planet is not in the tag of a/the alliance in question, and/or is repeatedly assisting the same set of planets (ie, an alliance) in question, then that planet is in breach of the Support Planet rule. Whilst not specifically refering to actual fleet movements, i think that this is implied, and as such scans (and covert ops) arent as important in consideration (otherwise most scanners would be in severe trouble). Anyway, consequences of this rule means that planets that have really silly fleets (eg, only massed Harpies) that consistently only defend top planets in an alliance, would not be considered in breach of the support planet rule if they were a member of that alliance in-game. By extension, if a planet is a member of a different alliance, and provides assistence through defence, co-ordinated/escorted attacks, covert ops or scans, that planet is similarly not in breach of the support planet rule, because it is a member of a (seperate but friendly) alliance, which it also presumably helps. Thus, if this is the case, i personally dont think that asc/dsc are in breach of the Support Planet rule's execution (if not the actual wording, which is vague enough to include so many actions that would never be considered cheating). They are, however, (potentially, and i would imagine) be working much closer together than most alliances would traditionally be comfortable with - though that isnt a breach of the rules, its a new paradigm in planetarion politics.

The second issue is whether the use of covert operations would result in players quitting in despair because (potentially) hundreds of ticks' worth of time and effort have gone into building up essential parts of your planet (factories, amps, jammers etc), which can then be destroyed in an instant (relatively) easily in an instant. People whom i respect, like Androx, are very concerned about this, and understandably so. However, i'm not sure that this point holds for two reasons - firstly, Planetarion is a game where there is significant risk of loosing hundreds of hours worth of effort in an instant; namely, your fleet. If you get fleetcaught, or your fleet otherwise killed, that's millions of resources worth (and thus hundreds of ticks) of time and effort lost, whilst your direct competitors do not experience this setback and so should outperform you. However, fleetcatches and/or loosing your fleet are - for better or worse - part of the way this game is played, and although loosing your fleet is a good excuse to quit, coming back from such a vulnerable position and/or taking measures to reduce your openness to this (like JGPing) etc, are facets of this game and a measure of a good gamer. Thus, i dont think that the current situation with covert ops is any different - there are measures you can take to reduce your vulnerability to covert ops, which leads into my next point.

The third major concern seems to be that of gameplay - and i think that this might be the most important area. With covert ops as powerful as they are now, i think this represents a need for players to adapt to the new environment. Imo, no longer is a "top scanner" someone with 149 amps, a "top" scanner would be someone who has a huge number of amps and enough security centres to keep them alive - which might only be 110 amps or somesuch. Now, last round, 110 amps wouldnt be able to scan any proper jammer h0e, however this round, jammer h0es suffer from the same problems as scanners - they will need maxed jammers plus enough security centres to keep them alive; thus top scanners and jammer h0es will be on orugh parity with eachother - just like they were last round. The difference is, imo, that what was once considered essential (140+) is now no longer attainable (or sustainable) for either scanners or jammer h0es. Thus, the new covert ops represents a shift in the goalposts moreso than a complete destruction of a way to play the game. And, whilst it pains me to say it, the pompus and arrogant comments that many asc/dsc players have made above about players needing to adapt to the new environment are essentially true. Just like how players adapted to PDS being removed, just like how players adapted to single class targeting with ships, the rise of Covert Ops this round means that loading up on (particularly amps/jammers, but all constructions in general) without sufficient 'investment' in security centres and population is a choice, that each individual player must make, whether to risk extra constructions and forgo potential resources/etc or opt for suriviability over sheer profit. In that regard, i actually think that the power of these covert operations is a good thing - it adds strategy to this game that's hard to match, as really you have to guess how much of a target you are, how much to devote to security, and (most interestingly) guess how much your direct competitors are devoting to security and whether you can gain from getting away with less, and so on.

However, gameplay is also about trying to get the balance right - i'm not sure that the current system is balanced in a sheer numbers regard. Perhaps an alternative way to retard the Blackout operation whilst not screwing all ops would be to increase the minimum number of agents for success - not only would that raise the cost of preforming the operation (whether success or failure) to potentially something resembling the cost of replacing the structure(s), but also lower the probability of success for all operations. In this way, there is still benefit in targeting alliance scanners and the like, but it will be harder to do, and less worth bashing some random newbie for giggles.

But all that aside, given all the aforementioned caveats and doubts, i find myself erring in favour of asc/dsc players on the above issues. Whether they are cheating is really up for MHs to decide, and their behaviour that i know of wouldnt be consistent with breaking the rules. As for players leaving because of destroyed structures, then i imagine that they'd be leaving anyway as soon as they lost part of their fleet or whatever - its not like there arent things that can be done to counter covert ops succeeding. And in terms of gameplay, i think what we are really experiencing is a twofold change; one of perspectives towards how many is a "good" number of amps/jammers or etc, and the other is risktaking behaviour between payoff in short term resources against running the risk of being covert opped and loosing some/many of your constructions. Neither of these things destroy the game. Neither of these things are indeed bad - they are, however, a change; and it seems that asc/dsc have been the best to adapt to that change.

So, i suppose it must be said: Ascendency/Descendency - well done on your pre-round planning and creative thinking.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 15:17   #124
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Re: Cov Ops

damn you do type a lot for saying the normal buhu vsn crap
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 15:25   #125
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Re: Cov Ops

There is a lot of truth in the above post [edit](and of course I'm referring to the one that isn't moronic)[/edit], but I'd like to life out a few parts and comment on them:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
[W]hilst it pains me to say it, the pompus and arrogant comments that many asc/dsc players have made above about players needing to adapt to the new environment are essentially true.
If you are (in part) referring to my posts, I apologise, it was never my intention to be pompous or arrogant. In all honesty, I would die a happy man if every scanner in the universe built enough security centers to be immune to my harassment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
The third major concern seems to be that of gameplay - [...] it adds strategy to this game that's hard to match, as really you have to guess how much of a target you are, how much to devote to security, and (most interestingly) guess how much your direct competitors are devoting to security and whether you can gain from getting away with less, and so on.
This is an aspect of the 'new' cov ops that had crossed my mind, but not yet in as much detail as you describe it here. You're right, I think that useful cov ops can add an extra layer of strategy for players, scanners and distwhores in particular. Of course one can also destroy other constructions (factories, finance centers), so normal players also have to devote a certain part of their resources to protecting themselves. Meanwhile, there is little need for new players to pay much attention to it. If your stockpile remains small, and you don't anger any cov oppers, you can easily play an entire round without ever having to deal with them.

An example of what happens when you do anger one (or a few) has been demonstrated by my gal the last 2 days. A guy attacked a galmate of mine (he wasn't even in *scendancy!), and after we threatened him in pm that his constructions would be destroyed, he failed to pull his fleets. We called his bluff and hit his constructions a few times. He then proceeded to attack us again, so now he doesn't have any left. Harsh? Yes, probably. But we gave him a chance, he just didn't take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
However, gameplay is also about trying to get the balance right - i'm not sure that the current system is balanced in a sheer numbers regard. Perhaps an alternative way to retard the Blackout operation whilst not screwing all ops would be to increase the minimum number of agents for success - not only would that raise the cost of preforming the operation (whether success or failure) to potentially something resembling the cost of replacing the structure(s), but also lower the probability of success for all operations. In this way, there is still benefit in targeting alliance scanners and the like, but it will be harder to do, and less worth bashing some random newbie for giggles.
The main problem I have with cov ops this round is that one needs to allocate a significant amount of resources to security to be protected against them, so much that other factors of the game are marginalised. I've already made one suggestion to remedy this for next round, and yours is another one that'd achieve that goal. I continue hoping that they will fix it, not ruin it.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 15:30   #126
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Titans and Legion managed to be separate alliances in r6!
The whole support planet rule, among with several other rules critisized recently, is a thin red line with no end. Subsequently, you can't really define a support as helping goals of a single entity either, if you have multiple entities in question. Now we have Descendancy and Ascendancy, in prior rounds there have been non-aggression pacts, shared attack plans, and such. Round 18 would escalate this as perhaps the most recent modern era block where xVx, SubH, and Escape actually shared attacks into a level of claiming off the same bot. If you were back then looking at the real rankings (instead of dubviously moronic descisions by both male and female high commanders of certain alliances to bring the war for personal reasons, which lead to the war only really benefitting one of the alliances directly, especially if you look at the outcome).

Now, even if Descendancy and Ascendancy are non-aggression pacted, and share goals, and channels (which I being the uninformed idiot would assume they do), it's not really anything different from what happened before. As many times said, alliances have broken the tag limit multiple times on multiple occasions and have not gotten punished, so what reason would there be to take any actions now either?
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 16:07   #127
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
The whole support planet rule, among with several other rules critisized recently, is a thin red line with no end.
Seriously, I think it's more pink and fuzzy
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 18:24   #128
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by shibaMac
Seriously, I think it's more pink and fuzzy
Haha

But the rules does need a rewriting tbh, cause they're too unclear as to what is allowed and what is not. Sure, unclear rules gives MH's more freedom to stop unforseen exploits, but it does also confuse a lot as to what is a go and what is a no go and that may end up in a messy situation. As for cov ops; i'm glad they're upped a bit for this round as it brings a new dimension to the game, but it could always be polished for perfection.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 18:32   #129
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Re: Cov Ops

sheer genius on the part of asc/dec and perfectly within the game rules , they have formed a block and are co-operating together within the rules

everyone giving out are only doing so because they didnt think of it first
get over yourselfs and play the game
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 18:58   #130
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Re: Cov Ops

I remember an exilition scanner out of tag closed for cov-opping 1ups scanners in r17, or was it r18?
Funny, back then he was reopened, but told he would be closed again if he kept on doing it.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 19:37   #131
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
The whole support planet rule, among with several other rules critisized recently, is a thin red line with no end. Subsequently, you can't really define a support as helping goals of a single entity either, if you have multiple entities in question. Now we have Descendancy and Ascendancy, in prior rounds there have been non-aggression pacts, shared attack plans, and such. Round 18 would escalate this as perhaps the most recent modern era block where xVx, SubH, and Escape actually shared attacks into a level of claiming off the same bot. If you were back then looking at the real rankings (instead of dubviously moronic descisions by both male and female high commanders of certain alliances to bring the war for personal reasons, which lead to the war only really benefitting one of the alliances directly, especially if you look at the outcome).

Now, even if Descendancy and Ascendancy are non-aggression pacted, and share goals, and channels (which I being the uninformed idiot would assume they do), it's not really anything different from what happened before. As many times said, alliances have broken the tag limit multiple times on multiple occasions and have not gotten punished, so what reason would there be to take any actions now either?

WRONG


xVx esc and subh did not use the same bot
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 19:54   #132
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Re: Cov Ops

Lets see to sum it up:

Make a 2nd alliance add 18 members make a good deal go dedicated covop, pretend its just two alliances working together, covop all hostile top ranking alliance scanners and claim its not in main alliances interest. And laught your arse off pretending its all legit.

Is a lame duck lame?

Soveh: You got plenty errors in your post i.e. jammer will have to build quite a lot of factories + build sec centers i.e. they wont have more then max jammers meaning dist whore strategy is futile now.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 20:07   #133
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Lets see to sum it up:

Make a 2nd alliance add 18 members make a good deal go dedicated covop, pretend its just two alliances working together, covop all hostile top ranking alliance scanners and claim its not in main alliances interest. And laught your arse off pretending its all legit.

Is a lame duck lame?
Make? No. All? No. Claim? No. Clearly you have some sort of learning or reading impediment. I advise a strong dose of cyanide.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 20:33   #134
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
WRONG


xVx esc and subh did not use the same bot
Same channel is what Pais told me year nudger. And he also spoke something about a rolling tick bot, so I just assumed it'd been interconnected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Make a 2nd alliance add 18 members make a good deal go dedicated covop, pretend its just two alliances working together, covop all hostile top ranking alliance scanners and claim its not in main alliances interest. And laught your arse off pretending its all legit.
Or make a second tag, exile all your support planets so that they sit in clusters, and use them. Or just not make a second tag at all, and focus on low activity community members building defences and having a giggle for incluster action. Or, just recruit a number of idle planets to sit in your tag to collect resources for the alliance until you actually tag up. Whatever you're saying, it's been done before.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 20:56   #135
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Soveh: You got plenty errors in your post i.e. jammer will have to build quite a lot of factories + build sec centers i.e. they wont have more then max jammers meaning dist whore strategy is futile now.
Distwhores didn't have to build factories in the past? The fact that you apparently need more factories this round than before has nothing to do with *scendancy or covops, to my knowledge. I can understand that you are confused, but it is really not our fault over here.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 21:36   #136
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Re: Cov Ops

Yeah distwhores had 3 factories in the past now they need atleast 20.

I am in no way confused, but it sure must be confusing for you lot to try and defend your blatent abuse and breaches of the rules.

Its peeps like you and your continoues exploitation of the game that has a great deal of the blame for the declining interest of PA.

Atleast in games like wow or eq you would know people like that would be banned or the exploits would be patched instantly, here nothing happens.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:05   #137
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Yeah distwhores had 3 factories in the past now they need atleast 20.

I am in no way confused, but it sure must be confusing for you lot to try and defend your blatent abuse and breaches of the rules.

Its peeps like you and your continoues exploitation of the game that has a great deal of the blame for the declining interest of PA.

Atleast in games like wow or eq you would know people like that would be banned or the exploits would be patched instantly, here nothing happens.
You're not even pretending to discuss the issue anymore, are you?
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:09   #138
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Re: Cov Ops

There isnt much to discuss is there?

Your lieing out of your necks trying to wrap up your breach of the alliance limit, perhaps you noticed all the admitting you guys did on the first page of the thread, then suddenly realising you had admitted breaching the rules you changed around and now claimed you where just a block and nothing else.

Its completely insane that you lot havent been stopped yet - The Descendancy tag should be instantly dissolved and as a minimum formal warnings on breaching the rules should be given - You guys are ruining the game and the worst part is your proud of it.

What on earth is there to compete about when some smucks using 100 planets to help them while others only has 60-65 planets - Is that a fair competition, but maybe thats what its all about cheating, lieing and stealing.

I aint impressed.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:20   #139
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Re: Cov Ops

Dull zealots win by default.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:25   #140
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
There isnt much to discuss is there?
Finally, something we can agree on

Quote:
but maybe thats what its all about cheating, lieing and stealing.
Stealing? Stealing what exactly?
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:26   #141
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Re: Cov Ops

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Stealing? Stealing what exactly?
Atleast your admitting to cheating and lieing then .
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:43   #142
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
There isnt much to discuss is there?

Your lieing out of your necks trying to wrap up your breach of the alliance limit, perhaps you noticed all the admitting you guys did on the first page of the thread, then suddenly realising you had admitted breaching the rules you changed around and now claimed you where just a block and nothing else.
WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN. ARE YOU INSANE OR JUST READING ANOTHER THREAD? GIVE ME SOME HELP HERE GOD.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:46   #143
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Re: Cov Ops

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Originally Posted by Red-
Its peeps like you and your continoues exploitation of the game that has a great deal of the blame for the declining interest of PA.
Yes and no.

There is a significant population of players (and whoever is in charge of general game development) who feel that everything which annoys, irritates, frustrates, stresses out, adds pressure and can't be countered in a simple manner is "unfair" and should be somehow removed from the game and banned by the rules. Obviously people who play PA just want to have fun and shouldn't suffer a high amount of stress while playing, right?

Wrong.

This is a competitive game. Pressure, stress, and everything that produces it are a necessary part of it. It is good. It is also good to always have something that could significantly screw you up and keep you on your toes - as long as it's not impossible to counter (and in PA's case, nothing is).

It's like in Starcraft when someone drops on your base while most of your army is rushing. I'm pretty sure PA team would quickly devise some rule along the lines of "using dropship attacks while 75% or more of defender's army is away are illegal and cheating" because "attacking defenseless bases players put SO much time in makes them quit".

True, it does make some people quit. But that is not the excuse to turn the game into a heavy-scripted artificially balanced scenario where all alliances are perfectly equal and where doing anything except using the game's basic features (scanning, attacking and limited defending) is in some way "unfair" and "cheating".

This game has softened a lot and tollerates a lot already (which IMO only has a negative overall effect).
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 22:58   #144
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Re: Cov Ops

Perhaps you have noticed how in games like wow or everquest when someone finds an exploit and intentionally uses it they get banned while the admins and dev teams does all they can to close down the exploit as fast as possible.

The reasoning behind the immidiate actions taken is that all the serious gamers who like to compete on a fair and even playing field dont care to spent time or money playing games there isnt such a leveled playing field for competition.

Or look at EVE some game master abused the GM system and during a few days they lost like a thousand paying accounts, cause they didnt signal enough action.

So is it positive that the last few rounds seen the one exploitation bunch after other trying to do thier part to ruin the gaming experience of others by gaining unfair advantages in ways that should have been addressed by admin? I dont think so.

Also during this round Pa team completely maimed Feudalism making it useless, but they wont change dictatorship??? Where the logic in thier behavoir?
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 23:01   #145
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Re: Cov Ops

This isn't an exploit. This was clearly made possible pre-round. It's like claiming exi were exploiting the game in r13 because they saw how rubbish cath was and didn't go for them while 1up did. It's just idiocy and usage of a poor analogy.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 23:03   #146
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Atleast your admitting to cheating and lieing then .
Not denying something is not the same as admitting it. I was just pointing out that one of your accusations was, with the possible exception of bank hacks, impossible.

Good politician's answer though.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 23:10   #147
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Re: Cov Ops

Have you perhaps considered the fact that the support planet rule is so vague and inconsistent that it is difficult to tell where the rules are being breached? MH can't even state what is and isn't against the rules with any sort of consistency, and *scendancy have done everything in their power to ensure they are not breaking the rules (in that JBG went and consulted MH).

You also say Ascendancy are the people ruining and exploiting the game for everyone, but you would be hard pressed to find an alliance with as many people outspoken enough to try to suggest positive changes for the game. Your comments seem to ignore everything that anyone has posted and continually follow your tired and inaccurate agenda.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 23:18   #148
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Re: Cov Ops

Also during this round Pa team completely maimed Feudalism making it useless, but they wont change dictatorship??? Where the logic in thier behavoir?

i realy hate that behavoir?
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 23:27   #149
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Re: Cov Ops

No, before protection ended they maimed Feudalism and then told everyone they could change government. So you had the same choices as everyone else at that point, which was very early in the game.
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Unread 1 Jul 2007, 23:28   #150
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Re: Cov Ops

Quote:
Originally Posted by torstein.gran@g
Also during this round Pa team completely maimed Feudalism making it useless, but they wont change dictatorship??? Where the logic in thier behavoir?

i realy hate that behavoir?
Well, it has become clear that dictatorship is overpowered for cov ops. PA team, correctly imho, are reluctant to change the rules mid round. Expect changes to covops/dictatorship next round.

It's ok though, I'm sure there'll be a new "exploit"
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