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Unread 26 May 2007, 10:37   #1
Kargool
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The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

6th September 2006 an incident that will have repercussions for the Norwegian police for years happened. Eugene Obiora, a man from Nigera was choked to death by the Norwegian police outside the social office where he was denied so called emergency help. A more detailed recall of the incident can be found here.

Obioras only fault was to be a man in a desperate situation. What does this tell about the current justice system in Norway a few people complained, and then the case started to roll.

A named police officer was involved in the killing of Obiora and he had an earlier case of excessive use of violence against him. He had previously gone to a bank when an alarm at the bank had gone of at night, and he attacked a member of the cleaning staff who was in the bank cleaning and accidentally triggered an alarm. She was also black, and the same policeguy severely beat her up.

Now, you would think that this would be used against him seeing as this was a very similar case, but no, the internal affairs board (who all consists of ex cops or lawyers who have worked in the police) was told to disregard that as the two happenings although similar had no relevancy (shock gasp).

So what happens?

Well, first there was a lone blog that stood up against this totally insane situation, then more followed, and then some, which has resulted in demonstrations in 4 of norways biggest cities, allthough peaceful, the clear shout from the masses is that the people responsible for killing Obiora should be dismissed from the police.

Next that happened was that a Norwegian ska/rap band called Samvirkelaget made a song called Stopp Volden (stop the violence) Volden was also the name of the policeman in question. He and the policemen's union thought that it was a low blow and was against it being played. They filed a lawsuit for slander against Samvirkelaget but however it got dismissed in court. The band however stopped using his name directly, but when a song is called Stop Volden and Volden is your surname I can only assume that this feels kind of annoying. However I just love the fact that this bastard is being held accountable for his own actions.

So, now we got a lot of people with no respect at all for the police, and jury members who have openly expressed that in the future they will see policemen with a more prying eye than before.

People have lost confidence in the polices ability to keep the streets safe, and when the police go to actions like choking a desperate man to death, when they were 4 policemen who could easily have talked their way out of it decided to use violence instead of talks, the usually peaceful Norwegian starts an uproar.

Me personally have attended all demonstrations with great interest and vigor, the demonstrations have started in the center of the city, and then moved down to the police station. I have witnessed 1600 peaceful demonstrants go to the police station and generally verbally abuse the policemen who has lined up outside the police station to appear to be listening to what we are saying.

Now, the first demo I attended i actually walked over to the head of the police in Trondheim and said my piece, in front of a few other youths. I told him who i was, and why i was protesting.

Now, while others have been shouting racism on the top of their lungs, I have been rather quietly thinking that this could have happened to anyone. So my question to the policechief was simply: How can you allow that your men decides to use excessive violence instead of actually trying to talk to the man? There was numerous witnesses to the killing and everyone pretty much tells the same story, that the police just walked straight over to him, and tried to put him on the ground, without any talks and without any provocation from the man's side, of course when it happened he fought back, he was from Nigeria, a place where if you get arrested by the police, chances are you don't come back.

The totally senseless use of police violence is what provoked me most in this case, and I will keep turning up on demonstrations to add my voice of discontent to the others who feel the same.

To add to this, the police has of course now banned this choke hold maneuver from being learned and from being used. (But they still refuse to say that the policemen did anything wrong)

I guess Norway simply isn't as nice a place as we thought.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 10:44   #2
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

It is a nice place to live. Thank God this behavior from the police isn't widespread though.

What puzzled me with the policemen's explanation, though, was that they described it as an "accident". No one dies of choking by accident.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 10:49   #3
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

The incident as told by the police was this, to contain the person they preformed a choke hold on him. (In general you get behind the person and put your arm around his neck and squeeze till he falls over) They then dragged him out onto the street, and put him on his stomach, since there was contusions on his neck because of the choke hold, his lung capacity got to nil and he couldn't breathe. By accounts of witnesses the police also had one foot on the victims back. These witnesses have been turned down by the police inquiry board as not trustworthy, and they decided to believe the police itself instead.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 10:50   #4
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Interesting story, dude.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 21:44   #5
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Obioras only fault was to be a man in a desperate situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
(Obiora) reportedly went berserk in a social welfare office.
Have you been privy to all of the information as to what this means? The social welfare folks were obviously quite concerned with his actions and they called for the police. Do you know what information was given to the police when they were dispatched to this location? It would appear, from the fact that FOUR officers were dispatched, that they were given information going in which would have caused them to believe that force might be immediately needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by article
"it took four officers to subdue Obiora"
This would seem to indicate that the force of four officers was NECESSARY to gain control of Obiora.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
Now, you would think that this would be used against him seeing as this was a very similar case
Actually, I would think nothing of the kind. In the US, at least, a criminal, when brought before the court has the right to be judged on the basis of his current actions alone. The theory is that people very commonly jump to the conclusion because someone committed a prior similar act, that the accusations in the current case must be true (shock gasp). It would seem that human nature in Norway is very similar to that in the US. I would accord an accused criminal the very same right which was accorded the police. If you are going to make an accusation against someone, either criminal or police, you should do it on competent evidence not on speculation that they have acted in accordance with prior perceived bad acts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
the clear shout from the masses is that the people responsible for killing Obiora should be dismissed from the police.
Shouid a system be based on the "shout from the massed"? If so then I won't be coming to Norway in the near future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
However I just love the fact that this bastard is being held accountable for his own actions.
Nice conclusion, however, other than your "feelings" what true facts do you have which puts you in such a good position to judge? Would you want your legal situation judged by people with the same amount of knowledge of your actions which you have of the police officer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
So, now we got a lot of people with no respect at all for the police, and jury members who have openly expressed that in the future they will see policemen with a more prying eye than before.
This is probably true, but it doesn't mean that there is any justification for this position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
choking a desperate man to death
How do you know he was deperate? What was he desperate about. "Berserk" sounds more like he was extremely angry and at least potentially violent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
when they were 4 policemen who could easily have talked their way out of it
You probably haven't had a lot of experience attempting to control a potentially dangerous situation. I had a case recently where a man was stopped outside of his house by the police. He needed to be handcuffed for the safety of the officers. He was asked to submit to handcuffing by getting on his knees and then on his stomach and to put his hands behind his back. He refused and the officers used a tazer to subdue him. Problem was that this deperate man wasn't fazed by the electric shocks administered. One officer used a riot baton to strike at the side of his knee to bring him to the ground. Still no success. A second tazer was deployed but still no success. It finally took 7 officers to bring him to the ground and to handcuff him. It turns out he had just murdered his room mate. Talking doesn't always work.

A carotid restraint, which the police applied in the Obiora case, is applied to restrict the flow of blood through the carotid artery to the brain thus depriving the brain of oxygen and causing the person to pass out in 20-30 seconds if effectively applied.

Unless you have some reason for believing that the officer was trying to kill Obiora then you should assume that it was unintentional. Any application of force will have the occasional unfortunate result. However, that does not necessarily mean that the force was excessive or unnecessary.

Now, the first demo I attended i actually walked over to the head of the police in Trondheim and said my piece, in front of a few other youths. I told him who i was, and why i was protesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
So my question to the policechief was simply: How can you allow that your men decides to use excessive violence instead of actually trying to talk to the man? There was numerous witnesses to the killing and everyone pretty much tells the same story, that the police just walked straight over to him, and tried to put him on the ground, without any talks and without any provocation from the man's side
By "pretty much" I assume that you mean some but not all of the witnesses agree with this account. Without examining the position and the predispositions of these witnesses, it is difficult to ascertain who was being accurate.

The police were there to protect the public from the "berserk" actions of Mr. Obiora. They didn't initiate the situation. They should have, and apparently did, attempt to make sure that Mr. Obiora didn't go "berserk" again. How would the police have been perceived if they had strolled in and begun to chat Obiora up only to have him pull a knife, say, and have cut the throat of one of the social workers? Do you think there would have been criticism of the police inaction in such an event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
of course when it happened he fought back, he was from Nigeria, a place where if you get arrested by the police, chances are you don't come back.
This would make him MORE dangerous then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
To add to this, the police has of course now banned this choke hold maneuver from being learned and from being used. (But they still refuse to say that the policemen did anything wrong)
The fact that things went wrong in a situation like this is not evidence that the police did something wrong. They may indeed have done something wrong but you can't judge the action solely by its outcome. The fact that there is a hysterical public and press reaction to a situation is also no evidence. The fact that the police have decided to eliminate a tool as too dangerous in order to avoid future public outcry is likewise no proof that the officer didn't act reasonably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
I guess Norway simply isn't as nice a place as we thought.
I will agree with you on this point.

In summary, the police have a very difficult job to do. They have to make decisions on the use of force that most of us would not be comfortable in making. They have to make it on incomplete information and they have to make it very quickly. They do not have the luxury of hindsight or of waiting for the good advice of the press and the public before they make those difficult decisions.

If people do not like the way the police do their job then they should, if young enough and phsically fit enough, join the police and thus change the police culture. If they are not young enough then they should encourage right thinking young people such as you and your friends to go in to law enforcement so that they can effect positive change by doing the job better.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 23:24   #6
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Thanks for giving it another perspective, dda. I had no idea there existed a "carotid restraint"-maneuver or that the police actually tried to make him pass out (haven't followed the case too closely). Don't think I can "blame" the police anymore after reading your post on it.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 23:27   #7
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Thanks for giving it another perspective, dda. I had no idea there existed a "carotid restraint"-maneuver or that the police actually tried to make him pass out (haven't followed the case too closely). Don't think I can "blame" the police anymore after reading your post on it.
It's like you've never watch an episode of 24.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 23:32   #8
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

He was not armed.
There were four police officers present.
It was not like he was about to kill someone.

So basicly the police where not in a situation where they needed to overpower this man in one second. They were four against one, so clearly they should have been able to make an arrest without cousing permanent damage to the one they arrested.

If the police, when 4 against one unarmed suspect, cannot arrest him without killing or cousing permant damage, I suggest they find another job.

The one police officer who is suspected of the actual strangling (ie murder), is suspected of beeing a racist and a liar. Some years ago he and one other police attacked a black woman, were cought on tape and then lied afterwards. This is why its "slightly" suspect that the same police officer now is the one who killed a black man (or murder him if it was intentional).

The general problem with police violence in Norway, is that it always goes unpunished. This might have to do that the people who are investigating accustations against police violence/brutality are police officers themselfs.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 23:57   #9
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

They (SEFO) are not police officers. Their job is to handle such cases where police officers are abusing their power (or similar), not run around catching thiefs.

Before SEFO was established it was normal that police officers/detectives from another district investigated the crimes committed by other police officers. SEFO was established so these investigations became more credible since the crimes committed by police officers would now be investigated by an independently organization.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 23:59   #10
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Have you been privy to all of the information as to what this means? The social welfare folks were obviously quite concerned with his actions and they called for the police. Do you know what information was given to the police when they were dispatched to this location? It would appear, from the fact that FOUR officers were dispatched, that they were given information going in which would have caused them to believe that force might be immediately needed.
The word reportedly was the word you should have focused on. There was more witnesses saying that what happened was that he first asked for the social workers names as he would file a complaint with their boss, when they refused to tell their names he took pictures of them, and told them that he refused to leave before he got to talk to their supervisor. However dont got this report in english.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
This would seem to indicate that the force of four officers was NECESSARY to gain control of Obiora.
As i said in the post, witnesses have described that he was sitting peacefully waiting for the supervisor to show, the police walked straight to him and tried to arrest him without even talking to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Actually, I would think nothing of the kind. In the US, at least, a criminal, when brought before the court has the right to be judged on the basis of his current actions alone. The theory is that people very commonly jump to the conclusion because someone committed a prior similar act, that the accusations in the current case must be true (shock gasp). It would seem that human nature in Norway is very similar to that in the US. I would accord an accused criminal the very same right which was accorded the police. If you are going to make an accusation against someone, either criminal or police, you should do it on competent evidence not on speculation that they have acted in accordance with prior perceived bad acts.
True, i can agree on this fact, however, when this is a person who has been reportedly very hostile towards people who are black. There has been surfacing reports about him assaulting two blacks who was leaving a church after a night sermon amongst others things like this sets a precedence in my opinion. The case was by the way dismissed for one of the policemen as nothing illegal proven, and for the three others was dismissed as no solid proof of actions. So there was a slight difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Shouid a system be based on the "shout from the massed"? If so then I won't be coming to Norway in the near future.
IF a system is seen as wrong, and a huge movement is being created to pinpoint this problem then it should be based on that fact. To add to this, the demonstrations have been totally peaceful and no violence or aggression have been used, and there are several blogs and human right groups who are fronting the campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Nice conclusion, however, other than your "feelings" what true facts do you have which puts you in such a good position to judge? Would you want your legal situation judged by people with the same amount of knowledge of your actions which you have of the police officer?
I sadly was not there, but with my experience with the Norwegian police, i am sadly given to believe the accounts on the several witnesses the police inquiry board have refused to acknowledge. Several members of the Norwegian parliament have meet with some of the witnesses and have openly stated that the case should be looked on.





Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
How do you know he was deperate? What was he desperate about. "Berserk" sounds more like he was extremely angry and at least potentially violent.
As I said, several witnesses have said he was quite adamant but peaceful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
You probably haven't had a lot of experience attempting to control a potentially dangerous situation. I had a case recently where a man was stopped outside of his house by the police. He needed to be handcuffed for the safety of the officers. He was asked to submit to handcuffing by getting on his knees and then on his stomach and to put his hands behind his back. He refused and the officers used a tazer to subdue him. Problem was that this deperate man wasn't fazed by the electric shocks administered. One officer used a riot baton to strike at the side of his knee to bring him to the ground. Still no success. A second tazer was deployed but still no success. It finally took 7 officers to bring him to the ground and to handcuff him. It turns out he had just murdered his room mate. Talking doesn't always work.

A carotid restraint, which the police applied in the Obiora case, is applied to restrict the flow of blood through the carotid artery to the brain thus depriving the brain of oxygen and causing the person to pass out in 20-30 seconds if effectively applied.

Unless you have some reason for believing that the officer was trying to kill Obiora then you should assume that it was unintentional. Any application of force will have the occasional unfortunate result. However, that does not necessarily mean that the force was excessive or unnecessary.
I can cautiously agree with you on this, the police did probably not openly try to kill the man, BUT and there is a big but here, they did not either try to negotiate with the man, nor did they try to get a picture of what actually had happend before they started arresting the man. This has been told by all the witnesses who have explained themselves to the police and to the board of inquiry. That is my biggest problem with it. If he was sitting quietly, why did not the policemen try to talk to him before attempting arrest. It does not make any sense to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
By "pretty much" I assume that you mean some but not all of the witnesses agree with this account. Without examining the position and the predispositions of these witnesses, it is difficult to ascertain who was being accurate.

The police were there to protect the public from the "berserk" actions of Mr. Obiora. They didn't initiate the situation. They should have, and apparently did, attempt to make sure that Mr. Obiora didn't go "berserk" again. How would the police have been perceived if they had strolled in and begun to chat Obiora up only to have him pull a knife, say, and have cut the throat of one of the social workers? Do you think there would have been criticism of the police inaction in such an event?
Yes, I would agree if he was openly hostile, but as i said and as all the witnesses have agreed upon, he was sitting quietly when the police showed up. He had been "rowing and shouting before it happend" but as i said there was no violence involved, he went berserk when the police went straight at him and tried to put him to the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The fact that things went wrong in a situation like this is not evidence that the police did something wrong. They may indeed have done something wrong but you can't judge the action solely by its outcome. The fact that there is a hysterical public and press reaction to a situation is also no evidence. The fact that the police have decided to eliminate a tool as too dangerous in order to avoid future public outcry is likewise no proof that the officer didn't act reasonably.
Granted, I agree on that. At least the death of Obiora made the police make this choke hold illegal, so something came out of it. Sadly Obiora is still dead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
In summary, the police have a very difficult job to do. They have to make decisions on the use of force that most of us would not be comfortable in making. They have to make it on incomplete information and they have to make it very quickly. They do not have the luxury of hindsight or of waiting for the good advice of the press and the public before they make those difficult decisions.
I totally agree with you that the police have a difficult job to do, and no, i would not be in their shoes, I'm one of the persons who thinks that the police should get more funding, in Norway now the funding to the police is at such a low level that out in the rural areas the average response time of the police has gone up to about 3 hours! There has been incidents when robberies have been in progress the police have refused to take action, only for the robbers to return for the rest! The general safety of the Norwegian population is being put to risk because of poor funding. However in this case that should not be any argument at all, as the police actually did something in this situation, however they did it horribly wrong. Just a quick question in regards to American police, is the police in the US required to assault a person just because they have gotten reports about someone being abusive and yelling at social workers? In my book the police should arrive and investigate before doing such an action. If the person in question had been totally rabid ofc they should have taken actions, but numerous accounts including one working in the building as pr said did say that this was not the case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If people do not like the way the police do their job then they should, if young enough and physically fit enough, join the police and thus change the police culture. If they are not young enough then they should encourage right thinking young people such as you and your friends to go in to law enforcement so that they can effect positive change by doing the job better.

So the only thing to do if you disagree with how the police act, is to join the police? Martin Luther King and several other civil rights movement activists would disagree with you. We as the general public have in my opinion both a right and a need to sometimes point the finger to someone if they are being wrong. If you disagree on the prices of meat in the shop, does it mean you have to become a butcher to complain or to make it better? Or are you in your right to say : "Hey, this is not fair, I take objection to this."
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Unread 27 May 2007, 00:03   #11
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
They (SEFO) are not police officers. Their job is to handle such cases where police officers are abusing their power (or similar), not run around catching thiefs.

Before SEFO was established it was normal that police officers/detectives from another district investigated the crimes committed by other police officers. SEFO was established so these investigations became more credible since the crimes committed by police officers would now be investigated by an independently organization.
Sadly SEFO consists of ex police officers, one of the people who were investigating the case of the death of Obiora was an ex member of the Trondheim police, having worked with one of the police officers only 3 months before this incident. That is very questionable in my eyes.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 00:12   #12
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

They are police officers. Or ex-police officers if you want to be formal.
And its not called SEFO anymore, its "spesialenheten for politisaker"; http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spesial...or_politisaker

SEFO developed a reputation for failing to even convict obvious crimes done by police officers, and was abandoned. However, this "new" unit doesnt really give any confidence either. If you go on their own pages, http://www.spesialenheten.no/index.asp?menuItem=15, and download the file called statistics for 2005, you will find that they dismissed 41% of the cases without looking into them. And only in 5% of the cases did it result in anything.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 01:17   #13
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

My opinion on this case when it was brought up at first was that people who had first-hand knowledge were better fit to judge than I was. That is still my opinion. I have enough faith in the juridical system to think that they know better than me when my sources of information are what I get from the tabloids and from other people who are as ill-informed as I am.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 01:28   #14
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

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Originally Posted by qebab
My opinion on this case when it was brought up at first was that people who had first-hand knowledge were better fit to judge than I was. That is still my opinion. I have enough faith in the juridical system to think that they know better than me when my sources of information are what I get from the tabloids and from other people who are as ill-informed as I am.
See, the problem here is that this case has not really been in the juridical system. It has only been investigated by the police's internal affairs club.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 01:45   #15
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

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Originally Posted by Kargool
See, the problem here is that this case has not really been in the juridical system. It has only been investigated by the police's internal affairs club.
Were you there? If the answer to this question is 'No' then you are forgetting one simple fact.

Do not read the gutter press.

In our country, at least you get a shit load of reporting and 'opinion' which is paraded as fact, with many unreliable witnesses being quoted as they give an interesting* account.

In the preceding weeks and months, the real story seeps through in dribs and drabs (which pass most people by) and the original (innacurate) 'story' becomes the official history to far too many people.

*almost completely fictional
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Unread 27 May 2007, 02:39   #16
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Indeed, tabloids are very un-reliable, they often claim to quote "sources close to <celebrity name here>" but these sources are almost always fictional characters which tabloids have conjured up.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 03:19   #17
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Kila you are wrong. :edit: and ASG

If tabloids printed false information, or indeed any paper they would be taken to court.

This is the scary thing about newspapers, 99% of what you read is actually true. Far to many cases have gone to court/been settled out of court because of inacurrate statements, these days what is published is mostly true and if push came to shove a newspaper will have evidence.

I will await Yahwe (and Furball) to back me up, but my idea is of defamation is

If I accused you of saying sleeping with another man whilst you were married.

I printed a story of that.

In a court of law defamation in England and Wales is different to a normal trial (ie innocent until proven guilty) the onus would be on me.

I would have to prove that you were indeed sleeping with another men.

Hence why what is published these days is mostly true.

Let's take the madeline mccann case for example. Rumours in the media are that her parents are swingers. Now without some hard evidence, the papers couldn't publish that (I am not saying that this makes them bad parents, but they left their kids alone whilst they went off, I am sure we can all do basic arithmatic...) Now without evidence of the parents being swingers ie photos and witness statements the papers can't publish this. Not only this but a court of law and perhaps most importantly a jury will feel emotionally involved with the madeline case so won't work in the favour of the paper.

As I say the scary thing is that most of what is published is in fact true.

A funny story I heard was that a paper said

"A CID officer from XYZ constablury is sleeping with a prostitute."

11 of the 12 CID officers sued the paper that said that and won.

So in conclusion, you are wrong kila. Most of what is written in papers is true. That is the scary part. As I said I will await the response of say Yahwe, until we can pass this as gospel, or at least an agreed opinion.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 03:21   #18
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Were you there? If the answer to this question is 'No' then you are forgetting one simple fact.

Do not read the gutter press.

In our country, at least you get a shit load of reporting and 'opinion' which is paraded as fact, with many unreliable witnesses being quoted as they give an interesting* account.

In the preceding weeks and months, the real story seeps through in dribs and drabs (which pass most people by) and the original (innacurate) 'story' becomes the official history to far too many people.

*almost completely fictional
Thing is, in norway we dont have a bad a gutter press as the UK, and this case has been most soberly reported in the press. I have personally talked to one of the witnesses, and I have also been talking to several people who are leading up the demonstrations. This happend about 200 meters down from where I live so I am pretty much in the middle of it.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 03:23   #19
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Like I said earlier Kargool, ASG is misinformed about our "gutter press" just because they don't use big words doesn't mean they are not a valid format for reporting the news.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 07:43   #20
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
If tabloids printed false information, or indeed any paper they would be taken to court.
Not really, it depends on whether the false information was damaging to anyone personally. Or even if so, if the person who was being damaged is likely to bring an action to court. If the Sun's editorial implies that Osama Bin Laden might be gay, is he likely to bring a case against them?

Anyway, this is about reporting of events where there's more scope for subjectivity compared to "is x sleeping with prostitute".
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Unread 27 May 2007, 09:50   #21
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
The totally senseless use of police violence is what provoked me most in this case, and I will keep turning up on demonstrations to add my voice of discontent to the others who feel the same.
The policemen nowadays are utter turdballs. They are badly educated, consist of the society's morons' cream of crop, and the dignity and authority setting has been replaced with bigger muscle.

That said, most policemen here are gym-attending proteine product addicts that can barely write their name correct when required.

Quote:
Sadly Obiora is still dead.
Just another token of police idiocy. It's fairly common around here too, more or less, they haven't yet managed to kill bystanders though.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 10:02   #22
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

The tabloids do get sued though pig. More so than most broadsheets do anyways.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 10:04   #23
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I will await Yahwe (and Furball) to back me up, but my idea is of defamation is

If I accused you of saying sleeping with another man whilst you were married.

I printed a story of that.

In a court of law defamation in England and Wales is different to a normal trial (ie innocent until proven guilty) the onus would be on me.

I would have to prove that you were indeed sleeping with another men.

Hence why what is published these days is mostly true.

I haven't studied defamation law at all, but I presume that Yahwe has summarised it accurately in his Yahwe Explains thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
1) The test for libel

(NB - This was the cause of action used in the forum suing case)

a) There must be a publication
b) This publication must be of a permanent nature
c) Said publication must cause "hatred, ridicule or contempt" of the person defamed.

If these three are fulfilled then there is a prima facie case.

It is then for the Jury to decide how badly you were defamed (or if you were defamed at all) and grant appropriate damages.
a and b are easy to satisfy - there's a publication of a permanent nature such as the magazine/newspaper proposed

You need to cause hatred, ridicule or contempt of the person allegedly defamed - now I'm not sure whether these take their natural meanings or have specific common law tests (probably the former), but ridicule/contempt should be easily provable in the situation you proposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Indeed, tabloids are very un-reliable, they often claim to quote "sources close to <celebrity name here>" but these sources are almost always fictional characters which tabloids have conjured up.
This is in fact a minority of their reporting. Many papers, including broadsheets, will quote 'friends' of the celebrity - and the two possible understandings you can have of that is that the friend does not want to be named and attract the resulting attention, or that they're made up. I wouldn't want to even guess at the ratio between the two, but falling for the fallacy that it's 50/50 would be a mistake.

The real problem with the tabloids is the spin they put on everything and the way in which this spin gets in the way of the news itself (in contrast with the traditional broadsheets). A quick read through the opinion/editorial columns of the Sun is enough to make me feel nauseous.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 11:34   #24
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
The policemen nowadays are utter turdballs. They are badly educated, consist of the society's morons' cream of crop, and the dignity and authority setting has been replaced with bigger muscle.

That said, most policemen here are gym-attending proteine product addicts that can barely write their name correct when required.



Just another token of police idiocy. It's fairly common around here too, more or less, they haven't yet managed to kill bystanders though.
HAHAHA! that's what you get for not having an army!
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Unread 27 May 2007, 11:41   #25
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Thing is, in norway we dont have a bad a gutter press as the UK
VG and Dagbladet (the two biggest newspapers (tabloid) in Norway) isn't Norwegian anymore? These two newspapers are good for one thing and that's sport news (until they bring up weird personal news about our "sport stars").
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Unread 27 May 2007, 11:43   #26
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
So in conclusion, you are wrong kila. Most of what is written in papers is true. That is the scary part. As I said I will await the response of say Yahwe, until we can pass this as gospel, or at least an agreed opinion.
You seem to have missed my point Piglet, sure most of the stuff they print is true but they often claim to have sources close to the person saying things like "xxx is deeply upset" or something similar, and most of the time, these sources are made up, they aren't giving out any real false information and nobody sues them for it.

Also as ASG said, there's a LOT of bias in the gutterpress, a great deal of the stuff we read is opinion made to look like fact.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 11:47   #27
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
If tabloids printed false information, or indeed any paper they would be taken to court.
It's very seldom such "extremes" happens in Norway. If a newspaper prints anything false or anything that isn't supposed to be in the newspapers, then they're likely to end up with a PFU-complaint (PFU being the organization that makes rules and ethics for how the press should behave). The next day (or on the next release) the newspaper will then correct or apologize their mistake, thus the only consequences are loss of good reputation. VG and Dagbladet probably add several PFU-notes like that in their newspaper every week.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 11:47   #28
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Kila you are wrong. :edit: and ASG

If tabloids printed false information, or indeed any paper they would be taken to court.

This is the scary thing about newspapers, 99% of what you read is actually true. Far to many cases have gone to court/been settled out of court because of inacurrate statements, these days what is published is mostly true and if push came to shove a newspaper will have evidence.

I will await Yahwe (and Furball) to back me up, but my idea is of defamation is

If I accused you of saying sleeping with another man whilst you were married.

I printed a story of that.

In a court of law defamation in England and Wales is different to a normal trial (ie innocent until proven guilty) the onus would be on me.

I would have to prove that you were indeed sleeping with another men.

Hence why what is published these days is mostly true.

Let's take the madeline mccann case for example. Rumours in the media are that her parents are swingers. Now without some hard evidence, the papers couldn't publish that (I am not saying that this makes them bad parents, but they left their kids alone whilst they went off, I am sure we can all do basic arithmatic...) Now without evidence of the parents being swingers ie photos and witness statements the papers can't publish this. Not only this but a court of law and perhaps most importantly a jury will feel emotionally involved with the madeline case so won't work in the favour of the paper.

As I say the scary thing is that most of what is published is in fact true.

A funny story I heard was that a paper said

"A CID officer from XYZ constablury is sleeping with a prostitute."

11 of the 12 CID officers sued the paper that said that and won.

So in conclusion, you are wrong kila. Most of what is written in papers is true. That is the scary part. As I said I will await the response of say Yahwe, until we can pass this as gospel, or at least an agreed opinion.
It depends on the story itself and against who it is printed. With celebrities, unless it is a major story with really harsh claims, it is unlikely that they will get sued. It is not really worth the hassle of a two year legal battle for a couple of grand and a 1 inch retraction on page 27 for a front-page story of 'Celeb smokes crack in orgy with transvestite'. Although I suppose it helps to cast doubt on the true stories about them as well. this example is particularly important as these stories get reported all around the world so some could literally spend the rest of their lives in court fighting false claims.

In a case like this though it is different. there is no-one to sue really. I doubt the family would go after the tabloids (rather than the police, say) unless they print something rather terrible.

the press in this country is almost completely subserviant to officials. they are becoming little more than a mouthpiece for government agencies and big business. these days 'reporting' consists of little more than printing the crap they are sent. 'Gooseberrys: Natures Viagra!' probably comes from the International Gooseberry Sellers Ltd so hasa natural bias, but that won't make it into the story.

In the same way, they tend to print whatever the government/police/army say without question, as if it were gospel. the most obvious examples of this kind of lazy (if we're being kind, propagandised, if we're not) reporting is the Iraq War, where papers like the Sun printed all of the lies without questioning it once. the same can be seen in the lies regarding the shooting of the Brazilian on 7/7 (saw wires, heavy jacket, run from the police. All are lies) and these were reported unquestioningly. When it was proved wrong, thee was no front page retraction, it was slightly mentioned in future stories but it just passed a lot of people by.

It disturbs me that you give these multi-national corporations the benefit of the doubt, when they have clearly not earnt it.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 13:55   #29
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Most newspaper libels/mistakes get settled fairly quickly and corrected, it's only the ones that are contested that result in major legal action and court cases.

The recent Keira Knightley/Daily Mail case (where they said she was anorexic) started in January, the case finished a couple of days ago and the correction was published yesterday. Five months, that's all.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 14:30   #30
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

I read english newspapers when I'm abroad, and in all fairness the norwegian papers aren't quite that bad. However it should be mentioned that a newspaper doesn't have to print factually incorrect information to give the wrong impressions; selective quoting and omitting information will do that trick and that isn't illegal.

However, back to the case at hand: The system needs to work the same way for everyone, otherwise how could you say that it actually works? This might sound cynical, but I don't think that this case should be treated differently because the victim is of foreign origin.

So we have established that the system should be the same for every case, at least, but whether the current organisation is fit to deal with it is obviously something else. However, what reasons do we have to call the policemen murderers, or even to say that this wasn't an accident? As the article you linked says, "[...]who suspect racism was behind the police officers' fatal efforts to subdue Obiora[...]", there are suspicions about this. If you are saying that what you want is an investigation of this, I agree with you, but there has already been one. We suspect things, and a lot of people seem to draw their own judgement from second-hand information, no evidence, no nothing. Luckily we live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Since the system needs to work the same way for everyone, this case also needs to be treated in the innocent until proven guilty way. Apparently the police officer couldn't be proven guilty, and that's really all there is to it. What a lot of this case seems to be about is that a lot of people with bad information and a skewed opinion taken in from the press have the opinion that "I know the officer is guilty since he has comitted racist acts before, ergo there must be evidence, and the investigation that has been undertaken is clearly lacking". This isn't the way it works, sorry.

When I read ddas post, I was further convinced to just settle for the fact that I'm not suited to judge in this situation, and that there is a lot more to it than what I know. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will continue to believe that the man actually dying was not intended, and that the situation in which this occured justified the use of brute force to restrain the man. Obviously, I'm not saying that nothing should happen, but I consider this an accident, not a murder.

For the record, most police officers are trained professionals, maybe what really should be looked into is their training. I mean, if they accidentally kill people, maybe their training is not good enough?
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Unread 27 May 2007, 15:28   #31
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Or they might be:

a) idiots
b) racists (police officers known to vote FRP who openly plays on racism)
c) simple minded ****ers who like to use force
d) know that they will are likely to get away with beating up people from past experience and/or becouse they will be helped out by fellow police officers

In the Obiora-case, the police officer who was the main person involved, should if the "specialunit for policematters" had taken this seriously, atleast have gotten a warning for doing a poor job (killing a man when they were 4 to one). He didnt ofcourse.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:04   #32
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Or they might be:

a) idiots
b) racists (police officers known to vote FRP who openly plays on racism)
c) simple minded ****ers who like to use force
d) know that they will are likely to get away with beating up people from past experience and/or becouse they will be helped out by fellow police officers
The only important part of this is the "might be" thing. You don't know. You are drawing conclusions without any real information. You haven't seen all sides of the case, only one.

Also, since when does voting FRP make you a racist? Should people who choose to to vote this party not be allowed to be police officers, or deal with people from other countries / skin colour / culture? Do your votes define who you are? Maybe people who vote a specific party are more interested in specific parts of their politics, or maybe they just consider there to be no good alternatives (And a lot of votes that go to FRP seem to go there exactly because people consider all the other parties to be more shit, not because they necessarily like FRPs politics).

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
In the Obiora-case, the police officer who was the main person involved, should if the "specialunit for policematters" had taken this seriously, atleast have gotten a warning for doing a poor job (killing a man when they were 4 to one). He didnt ofcourse.
What difference would a warning make? You either punish him, or you don't, in my opinion. There is no middleground, you are never "A bit guilty of murder", you're either guilty, or you're not. Sure, a warning for a poor job, I can agree with it, but I don't think it would really make a difference. Obiora is still dead, the police officer is still found to be innocent, and if he really is innocent, being the cause of someone's death is warning enough. Not to mention all the fuss this has gotten in the media.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:16   #33
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

'You don't have to be racist to work here, but it help!'
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:33   #34
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
and most of the time, these sources are the celebs themselves
fixed your post for you
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:47   #35
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

In Great Britain, people who are member of BNP are not allowed to be members of the police. The reason is quite simple, becouse ALL members of the public should expected to be treated equally by a public instituion. Membership of BNP does make one question your ability to give equal service to all members off the public.

FRP's rise in norwegian politics was based on two main pillars, one of them was the clever way they played the racist-card. FRP isnt "nazi-thugs in suits" like the BNP, but they have openly flirted with such elements. They employed a nazi for their parlimentary group, their Oslo-youth section have been dominated by nazi thugs in periods, some of the parties politicians have held meetings with nazis. It was only when the most outspoken racist elements became a liabilty for further growth that they were kicked out.

Now why is this relevent, that a large portion of the police force is known to vote for this party. Becouse the person who died is black, and that the incident is the third major involvment this particular police officer (Mr Violence) has been involved in with a black person (his first episode beeing the famous Baidoo-case). So it is quite relevant to ask if this man would have been given the same treatment if he had white skin.

Regarding guilty vs not guilty, there is the subtle difference of beeing guilty of criminal offence and beeing guilty of poor police work. Beeing given a warning for doing poor work might be used against you if you **** up again, and it's used to track a someones ability to do his/her work. Notice that Mr Violence, the police officer we are discussing here, was accused of doing his job poorly in the Baidoo-case: http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/n...delag/1.120026
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:03   #36
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab



What difference would a warning make? You either punish him, or you don't, in my opinion. There is no middleground, you are never "A bit guilty of murder", you're either guilty, or you're not. Sure, a warning for a poor job, I can agree with it, but I don't think it would really make a difference. Obiora is still dead, the police officer is still found to be innocent, and if he really is innocent, being the cause of someone's death is warning enough. Not to mention all the fuss this has gotten in the media.
There is an important matter in this case, the fact that one of the policeofficers got fully acquitted, and that the three others did not. They got their case closed because of the proofs. (Henlagt pga bevisets stilling) which is not a fully aquittal, and also opens of for a civil court case against them.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:27   #37
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kargool
So the only thing to do if you disagree with how the police act, is to join the police?
What I was actually trying to suggest is that often, in my experience, the people who are the most critical of a particular occupation have a pre-existing bias about the kind of person that is doing that job.

To use an example, in the US, many of the right wing consevative types lament that the education system is a bastion of liberal ideology. They are correct in many respects. However, much of their negative opinion grows out of their disdain for persons with liberal ideas. They whine about how there ought to be more conservative minded professors and teachers. However, their attitude is one which discourages more conservatives from going in to that field.

I feel that there is an over reaction on the part of most liberal individuals when there is an unfortunate outcome where the police are concerned. If the police react strongly and someone is hurt or killed, a wail goes up that the police are terrible and that it must be the fault of the police. The same individuals, when there is an event where the police react in a milder manner and it has an unfortunate outcome, will set up a wail that the police are incompetent and are terrible.

These people are going to find reasons to assail the actions of the police in almost any event.

The stated bias in the posts of ASG and Zhukov certainly represent an anti-police bias which is as reasonable as any other form of bigotry.

I was simply trying to say that those who feel the system is wrong ought to encourage people who they think would do the job better to go into that field. Suggesting that all police are idiots, etc. is not the sort of thing that is going to encourage kind and benevolent individuals to go into police work which is the only real solution for the percieved problem.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:33   #38
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Kargool: Can you please read the verdict from the specialunit for policecases first? http://www.spesialenheten.no/docs/vedtak.pdf
It's the oposite, three got off completely, while the forth one got off becouse they could not prove that a criminal offence had been commited.

To quote from it:
The case against policeofficers A, B and C is dismissed (..) becouse of "bevists stilling" (position of evidence).
The case against policeofficer D is dismissed becouse "intet straffbart forhold anses bevist" (no criminal case can be proven).
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:35   #39
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The stated bias in the posts of ASG and Zhukov certainly represent an anti-police bias which is as reasonable as any other form of bigotry.
I would like to refute these slanderous claims!

No-where in this thread have I expressed an anti-police bias (exacpt for the last post, which was pretty much a joke) Believe it or not, I have no opinion about Norwegian police or if this guy is guilty or not.

If you are going to claim that I have a bias towards some institution, I would apreciate it if you picked one which I have actually attacked, namely the gutter press.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:48   #40
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The stated bias in the posts of ASG and Zhukov certainly represent an anti-police bias which is as reasonable as any other form of bigotry.
Wrong. It can be proven that the norwegian police force discriminates people with black skin. It can be proven that the organs responsible for investigating and bringing to court cases where police are involved, is not working and that former police officers are ones who are supose to be doing the investigation agaisnt former coworkers, like in this case.

I can't prove that alot of the people in the police force is stupid, racist and all to willing to use force. Nor do I belive that the police in Norway is worse off than in other countries, its probably not (The police in Sweden seems even more incompetent). Nor are the problems Ive listed unheard of on (Rodney King anyone).

My anti-police bias, as you call it, it's a mix of things that can be proven and other things that are common knowlegde (police officers not beeing the brightest in the population for instance). But then again it seems that you have your own bias, a pro-police one, but that might not be strange considering your job.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:50   #41
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
In Great Britain, people who are member of BNP are not allowed to be members of the police. The reason is quite simple, becouse ALL members of the public should expected to be treated equally by a public instituion. Membership of BNP does make one question your ability to give equal service to all members off the public.
MEMBERS, not VOTERS. Do you see the difference? It's also amusing how you failed to answer even one of the questions I made in the last post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
FRP's rise in norwegian politics was based on two main pillars, one of them was the clever way they played the racist-card. FRP isnt "nazi-thugs in suits" like the BNP, but they have openly flirted with such elements. They employed a nazi for their parlimentary group, their Oslo-youth section have been dominated by nazi thugs in periods, some of the parties politicians have held meetings with nazis. It was only when the most outspoken racist elements became a liabilty for further growth that they were kicked out.
And yet again, you fail to address the question of whether voting FRP makes you a racist, or just a FRP-voter. This whole thing is really irrelevant, because you don't address this. If you imply it and I fail to see it, then I'm sorry about being thick.

However, I happen to know people who vote FRP, and I'm pretty sure of them not being racist. In fact, I happen to know a guy natively from Iraq voting for them. I'm pretty sure voting FRP doesn't make you a racist and unsuitable for police work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Now why is this relevent, that a large portion of the police force is known to vote for this party. Becouse the person who died is black, and that the incident is the third major involvment this particular police officer (Mr Violence) has been involved in with a black person (his first episode beeing the famous Baidoo-case). So it is quite relevant to ask if this man would have been given the same treatment if he had white skin.
The latter part of this is of course relevant, but it is pure speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Regarding guilty vs not guilty, there is the subtle difference of beeing guilty of criminal offence and beeing guilty of poor police work. Beeing given a warning for doing poor work might be used against you if you **** up again, and it's used to track a someones ability to do his/her work. Notice that Mr Violence, the police officer we are discussing here, was accused of doing his job poorly in the Baidoo-case: http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/n...delag/1.120026
Again, he was accused of doing poor policework. If I read that correctly, he was taken to court after using a racist remark in an arrest, after having been bitten by the person he tried to arrest.

I took myself the liberty of translating the import part of that article for our english-speaking readers:

Quote:
The arrest of Sohpia Baidoo in Sparebank 1 at Heimdal was poor policework, according to prosecutor in Trondheim city-court.

Even if the case is about the use of the expression "black ****", the prosecutor spent time in the court to describe the work of the police regarding the arrest of Baidoo. And the picture he painted was not at all positive.

Defender Jens-Ove Hagen on the other hand said that the police officer did a, after the circumstances, decent job. Both prosecutor and defender assume that Baidoo has bitten the police officer during the course of the arrest, but prosecutor Jan Henrik Dahle does not agree with the time the defense determined this to have happened. Badioo herself denies to have bitten the officer.
(Let me know if there is anything you want to add or remove from that translation, my norwegian is getting quote dodgy lately.)

Basically, we are talking about a police officer accused of using a racist remark after having been bitten by someone he was sent to arrest. I have to claim ignorance of this case, I generally don't pay much attention to the media. Is that all there is to it? He was sent to court for having used a racist remark, and this is the same case that Kargool referred to in the opening post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
He had previously gone to a bank when an alarm at the bank had gone of at night, and he attacked a member of the cleaning staff who was in the bank cleaning and accidentally triggered an alarm. She was also black, and the same policeguy severely beat her up.
Anyway, your logic here seems to go something like this:

FRPs politics have or have had racist undertones. This makes people who vote FRP racists. A lot of police officers vote FRP. Therefore it is probable that the guy this case is about is a racist. It "logically" follows that the death of Obiara was triggered by racism.

You're basing all of this on speculations, and dodgy deductions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
There is an important matter in this case, the fact that one of the policeofficers got fully acquitted, and that the three others did not. They got their case closed because of the proofs. (Henlagt pga bevisets stilling) which is not a fully aquittal, and also opens of for a civil court case against them.
So then the case isn't closed after all, and you guys might actually get the justice you are babbling about? Then I do not really see the justification for all this.

And yes, I of course hope that if they are guilty, the court will rule them guilty. What I don't like about all this is how you automatically assume people to be guilty, and will only 'let them go' if they are proven innocent. Or the whole special unit for police cases being corrupt, if that's what you were trying to get to.

My main objection against the whole thing is that you, while saying that the police are doing a poor job, paint a completely onesided picture, where the police officer in question is guilty of murder from the get-go.

Basically the wording in these snippets:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
...Obioras only fault was to be a man in a desperate situation. What does this tell about the current justice system in Norway a few people complained, and then the case started to roll....

...Now, you would think that this would be used against him seeing as this was a very similar case, but no, the internal affairs board (who all consists of ex cops or lawyers who have worked in the police) was told to disregard that as the two happenings although similar had no relevancy (shock gasp)....

...Well, first there was a lone blog that stood up against this totally insane situation, then more followed, and then some, which has resulted in demonstrations in 4 of norways biggest cities, allthough peaceful, the clear shout from the masses is that the people responsible for killing Obiora should be dismissed from the police....
You are saying that Obiara was basically without fault and had the right to react in whichever way he saw fit. However, the article you referred states that he "went berserk in a social welfare office". You then go on to paint the internal affairs board as corrupt because they, shockingly enough, have ex-lawyers and ex-police officers in there. And then you say that these cases are so similar that you might as well use them both against the police officer in question, even though one of them was about a person dying, and the other appears to be about a racist remark - not to mention the fact that the case which this topic is about had 4 police officers dispatched, which means 4 possible guilty people, not one, while you seem to have this whole big thing against that one person.

Then you pain this situation as completely insane, but thank god, the blogs came to rescue! And then peaceful demonstrations, meanwhile the juridical system for these cases have determined to not do anything about it, so the demonstrations calls for supposed killers to be dismissed from the police as punishment.

Sorry for putting words in your mouth there, but that description isn't really that different from what you originally wrote.

Your fault in this whole thing is to assume that the officers are guilty of a very serious crime, when the system apparently has decided that they aren't. This is why there is a system for these things, and the masses shouting aren't the ones who decide who are guilty of crimes and who are not.

Okay, got a bit carried a way and this is just one long rant. I really shouldn't post this, but I've written it so...
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:53   #42
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

I want to reply to your last post as well Zhukov, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 18:45   #43
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Since I managed to delete my post, Im not in the mood to write it all over again in lenght. So I will try to be brief.

I fail to see the big difference betwen voting for a party and beeing member of it. Either way, you support the policy of that party on SOME level.

But I think this article by Amesty points it out quite well:
http://www.amnesty.no/web.nsf/pages/...256A6900445C3F

It also comments the Baidoo case:
That the police officer was probably not bitten (as shown by CCTV) and that two doctors, one in anathomy and one in odondonlogy says that the marks doesnt come from beeing bitten. That leads me to belive that the police officer lied. Seeing as the specialunit for policematters put faith in the opinions from one doctor, I don't think I can be blamed for putting faith in two.

As this article is from 2000, it doesnt deal with the special unit for policematters, but with the unit that was before it, SEFO. It's openly says that SEFO doesnt work. Police officers lie to protect each other says a professor. This is also backed up by a police chief..

So to be general:
a) There is no point in pressing charges against the police.
b) Police violence goes unpunished (even when commited at large scale over years where I live (Bergen, see http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politivoldsakene_i_Bergen)
c) The chance of this police officer beeing prosecuted and sent to jail, if he is guilty of murder, is therefore as good as none. Obioras family therefore have sadly no chance of "getting a fair trial".
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Unread 28 Jun 2007, 15:58   #44
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The Obiara case is renewed!

The national attorneys office has spoken, they are now launching a full new reinvestigation of the Obiara case and new and more thorough investigations are to be held, witnesses who was not interviewed when the case first was up will now actually be interviewed and there has been lodged several inquiries regarding the choke maneuver that the police used.

The general opinion in the Norwegian newspapers is that this is because the national attorney want to raise trails against the police officers in question.

This is a full win for the demonstrations and the huge civilian uprise against the watch your own back policy that the police have in regards to investigating their own.

This is the best news I've had in a long time, and now it seems like the murder of Eugene Obiara will finally be brought to justice.

The people have the power to change things, and I feel happy about being a part of the change.
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Unread 3 Jul 2007, 19:03   #45
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Wouldn't exactly compare SEFO or whatever it's called in English to Internal Affairs in US. Atleast in US Internal Affairs aint to popular among policemen. And i honestly would find it strange if the were 16 deaths caused by the police there, without even one of'em causing a prosecution. Here in Norway, it looks like SEFO is policemens and therefore taking care of their own.

Ofcause policemens should take care of their own. But i don't think that makes them the best ones when it comes to investegating crimes in their own ranks. After all there's usually 2 sides of a story, and wouldn't it be better to make someone neutral investagate what's happened?


Anyway, i've tried to translate as good as i could 2 parts from different webpages here, in an attempt to make you ppl see it more from us Norwegians side. The Amnesty page i've translated from has been posted here before, but not the one from Namdalsavisa (random page from many which includes much the same). It's not a perfect translation though, since my English is a bit limited. I've tried to be as neutral in my translation as possible, but obviously i see it from the same side as Kargool and Zhukov.

3rd column after the second picture:
126 politifolk voldsanmeldt
- ingen tiltalt
SEFO fikk i fjor inn 656 anmeldelser. I 45 av sakene foreslo SEFO reaksjoner mot de anklagede polititjenestemennene. Blant reaksjonene var det imidlertid kun tre tiltaler, resten var 13 påtaleunnlatelser og 29 forelegg. Av 126 anmeldelser om vold eller ulovlig maktanvendelse foreslo SEFO ingen tiltaler, kun én påtaleunnlatelse og fire forelegg.
My translation:
126 policemen reported for violence
- None accused
In the last year SEFO got 656 reports. In 45 of those case SEFO suggested reactions against the accused policemen. Among the reactions, only 3 of'em were accused, in the rest were 13 assumed illegal without reason for prosecution ( påtaleunnlatelse: done something illegal, but without prosecution ) and 29 fines. Among the 126 reports for violence or illegal use of power, SEFO suggested no indicements, and only 1 were assumed illegal without reason for prosecution (påtaleunnlatelse), and 4 were punished with a fine.

From the first 5 lines of http://www.namdalsavisa.no/Innenriks...cle2856437.ece
Oslo:
Siden januar 2005 har 16 personer mistet livet i politisaker i Norge. Ti av dødsfallene er etterforsket og henlagt uten reaksjoner mot de involverte polititjenestemennene.
De seks siste sakene etterforskes fortsatt av Spesialenhtene for politisaker.
My translation:
Since January 2005, 16 people have lost their life while it got handled by the police. 10 of those cases has been investigated and been set aside without reaction against the involved policemen.
The last 6 are still under investigation by SPF.(earlier know as SEFO).

Last edited by Pilatus; 3 Jul 2007 at 19:17.
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Unread 3 Jul 2007, 20:20   #46
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Anybody know how many people have died cause of the Police in the UK in an equivalent time frame?
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Unread 3 Jul 2007, 20:23   #47
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Probably a lot. Such rarely hit the news, though, do they.

We had an interesting case here where a security officer of a private security firm was videotaped kicking a handcuffed bloke while the other security officer was pinning him to the ground. Caused a little bit of a hassle, too. There are claims that it's not very irregular, but it's not very often that it gets videotaped by someone (obviously, the security cameras are the same firm's as the security monkeys).

I can't remember ever hearing of a police being accused of such, though. But those are probably effectively swept under the carpet.

Oh, it's still on youtube.
Here.

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Unread 3 Jul 2007, 20:27   #48
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Just on a total aside it appears that deer are the REAL blight on a country's character (death, financial loss and what do they give ... bugger all). *











*i found that whilst looking for police fatalities. 30 people shot dead by police in 12 years and 0 police convicted etc
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Unread 3 Jul 2007, 21:36   #49
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Re: The Obiora case. A dark spot on Norway's "clean sheet"

Ugly case, but maybe they were right. still think lots of innocent ppl have gotten hurt, due to a bit paranoia because of terrorists. But thats another discussion.

In my case what upset my about the Oboria case is not whether the policemens where judged or not. Maybe they couldn't handled it better under the cirumstances, and maybe they reacted correctly.

What's i've been mostly upset about, is that almost every policemens don't have to go to trial in incidents where ppl have died. It's more like if your a policeman in Norway, it don't matter if you kill someone. And there's been many of those cases in Norway.

No matter what's wright or wrong, it's after all a human life we're talking about. Is it really that hard to understand that ppl react, when they feel like to many have died, when the ppl involved have gotten away without even gotten prosecuted? And does it make it right just because something similar have happened in other contries?

Last edited by Pilatus; 4 Jul 2007 at 12:05.
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