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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 15:30   #201
[DW]Entropy
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Re: R31 shipstats

ok i'm really rubbish with stats which is why i keep my nose out but why do cath de/cr have an init of 1 whereas the fi has an init of 2. Is it just because its emp? Not a question about these stats in general but stats altogether i suppose. Apologies for the nubile question
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 15:33   #202
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
The original reason for it firing at fi was obviously to take on the phant not cats, thats just a by-product....
U obviously did not play this round, the DE class pillager was Ascendancys defence ship vs Fi/Co
That's a whole design flaw on it's own.

Gals of 25 players ... seriously?

Hopefully they resolve this major flaw before having to adopt ship stats to counter it.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 15:55   #203
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
why do cath de/cr have an init of 1 whereas the fi has an init of 2.
So that the Cath Fi are stunned before they fire their EMP guns. Same goes for the Etd EMP ships.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi_K View Post
That's a whole design flaw on it's own.

Gals of 25 players ... seriously?

Hopefully they resolve this major flaw before having to adopt ship stats to counter it.
Ascendancy used Pillagers out of gal most of the time. And I believe booji's "okay" with it raping Xans and not with Caths, since Caths have a hard enough time as it is.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 16:05   #204
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
So that the Cath Fi are stunned before they fire their EMP guns. Same goes for the Etd EMP ships.
should the init on the ghost be lower then?
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 17:36   #205
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Ascendancy used Pillagers out of gal most of the time.
So basically people threw around horrible fleet comps?
I have to be missing something...
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 17:39   #206
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi_K View Post
So basically people threw around horrible fleet comps?
I have to be missing something...
If you're active it's pretty easy to send fr/de class def against fi/co. One rather obvious case would be where there's an eta 7 fi/co wave heading at you and an eta 9 cr/bs wave and an fi/co wave in prelaunch. Odds are that fi/co wave is probably landing in 8 ticks. There were plenty of other cases as well.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 18:27   #207
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Re: R31 shipstats

and people are lazy, rarely changing landing times, or switching fleets within there fleetnames.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 18:51   #208
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
should the init on the ghost be lower then?
What does the Ghost have to do with EMP ship's init?
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 20:07   #209
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Re: R31 shipstats

Any chance of a updated set of stats?
Im completely lost on what changes has been made to the last set now.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 21:16   #210
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
If you're active it's pretty easy to send fr/de class def against fi/co. One rather obvious case would be where there's an eta 7 fi/co wave heading at you and an eta 9 cr/bs wave and an fi/co wave in prelaunch. Odds are that fi/co wave is probably landing in 8 ticks. There were plenty of other cases as well.
Ah okay, so people have gotten worse

I miss the good ol' days where launching before xx:59:50 made you horrible
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 21:25   #211
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
What does the Ghost have to do with EMP ship's init?
i don't know, i'm trying to understand it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
So that the Cath Fi are stunned before they fire their EMP guns. Same goes for the Etd EMP ships.
i was thinking the fr/de that target fi/co have to fire first (sorry..best way i can explain?). Thats what that statement led me to believe.

Sorry i don't wanna be hijacking this thread, is there anywhere they're explained in detail?
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 21:36   #212
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post

Sorry i don't wanna be hijacking this thread, is there anywhere they're explained in detail?
the manual???

instead of making a new reply (taking the thread further off topic), iam not missing your point or the context, but your asking something that is easily answered by the manual or asking other people on irc. go to #planetarion and ask someone who played cath last round as cath de fired init 1 and co init 2 last round.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 21:40   #213
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Thatcher View Post
the manual???
well done, you succedded in misreading not only the context but the point.
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 00:26   #214
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
ok i'm really rubbish with stats which is why i keep my nose out but why do cath de/cr have an init of 1 whereas the fi has an init of 2. Is it just because its emp? Not a question about these stats in general but stats altogether i suppose. Apologies for the nubile question
First of all, you should never be afraid of asking questions here. The fact that people are tells us alot about the sad state of our forums. We aint exactly friendly ( myself included! )

Usually emp is init 1 or 2. At times they have diff. initiative, which usually makes 1 emp def ship fking imba vs the emp attack combo. The problem with them having same init is that you often then have to emp 100% of the attacking fleet for it to be any real use. I like combos with diff. inits on emp, but its hard with current setup of how emp is set in-game.

: there I see patrikc already answered the question, but I ll post this shit anyway!:
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 11:53   #215
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Re: R31 shipstats

Why doesnt emp follow the same rules as normal guns/damage in terms of how and when it fires?
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 12:10   #216
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
Why doesnt emp follow the same rules as normal guns/damage in terms of how and when it fires?
Its based on empres from good ol days, now its differently setup. I dont fully understand how it works anymore myself, and just check the analysis of them to get the picture of their effectiveness. The difference is that they have about the same efficiency on t1 t2 and t3. And dont follow the same setup as dmdg / steal ships.
Why they are different, and fire before everything else, is because they are :emp: and since they are shit and dont kill, they are more effective and fire first. But, why they dont just got crazy dmdg on emp, and use same system as killships, I honestly dont know or understand anymore. I m sure someone will be able to explain both of us why shortly though!
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 12:54   #217
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Re: R31 shipstats

Emp works like this. Each emp gun has a % chance of freezing what it fires at. This % chance is determined by the emp resistance of the ship being fired upon. If this emp resistance is 80 it takes 5 guns firing to freeze the ship. If the emp resistance is 50 it takes 2 guns firing to freeze the ship. If the emp resistance is zero it takes 1 gun firing at it to freeze the ship. The advantage of emp guns/emp resistance is that you have a different dynamic. If you just have emp firepower as really effective it'll be really effective against ships with low armour. With the current system it doesn't have to work that way so you have more freedom with stats. It's not really a great system though. For example you can do loads of tweaking at the lower ends of the scale changing emp resistance for xan fi from 21 to 22 but you can't tweak terran bs from 91 to 92 in the same fashion. The actual resultant change is far greater. Changing the emp resistance of a ship from 0 to 50 is actually the same as changing it from 98 to 99.
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 13:40   #218
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Re: R31 shipstats

The pillager is looking overpowered. I'm thinking of splitting it into 2 ships. A DE->FI (init 3) and a DE->DE.

Also considering:
- adding a cath CR->CR/DE EMP
- Moving cath BS to an FR->CR/DE
- swapping etd to BS with paladin as a cruiser and ziks to BS attack (improves etd BS slightly whilst not affecting zik so much)
- playing around with the zik FI/CO again. Maybe throwing them into a single class and splitting their targeting so one is anti FI/DE, the other CO/FR.

EDIT: in hindsight, the zik DE->FI ship may be init 4/5 if I do that.
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 13:47   #219
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
The pillager is currently probably overpowered. I'm thinking of splitting it into 2 ships. A DE->FI (init 3)
For the love of Jesus on this most holy of weeks man, can you not see how that makes it even better? It was already stupidly broken against Fi and you want to make it T1 them by getting rid of the rubbish De targetting?

Overall I feel these stats have veered off in an alarming direction from the first iteration, which I had thought promising.

edit: [13:52] <isil|tv> by pillager does he mean brigand
I presumed you did.

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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 14:22   #220
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
- adding a cath CR->CR/DE EMP
- Moving cath BS to an FR->CR/DE
- swapping etd to BS with paladin as a cruiser and ziks to BS attack (improves etd BS slightly whilst not affecting zik so much)
are you not going to end up with too much bs? especially if both cat and etd fr are only emp against them, this on the other side means there will be too much firing at what remaining cr there is.
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 14:32   #221
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Re: R31 shipstats

I presume the point is that if it (the brigand) is in 2 ships there will be fewer of them thus compensating for the better efficiency.
Messy tho it is, must it be init 3. if it was init 4 it would still be a great deterrent to xans but there would be an element of daring ur opponent to land it, which wouldnt occur with init 3.
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 14:46   #222
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Re: R31 shipstats

Alternatively have it as init 3 but add a t3 = DE on either the banshee or the revenant to make it more scary to def vs xans with brigand(incase they send pure co and wipe out your de).
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 16:47   #223
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Re: R31 shipstats

It'd still rape Cath Fi though... Not that I'm allowed to go Cath, but I'd consider playing them. ^^
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 16:53   #224
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Re: R31 shipstats

the only way to help cats is to make it a frig; to a certain extent that helps along the lines of what isil wants as the rev hits it too.... but that also makes zik fr a pretty tough nut
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 20:54   #225
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Re: R31 shipstats

These Stats seem to be heavily in favor of Etd which shouldnt be the case. I thought these stats were suppose to be balanced. If you make the Brigand init 3 then split the emp targeting on cath so that can primary target otherwise it cath fi's cant land on them at all.
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Unread 11 Apr 2009, 21:50   #226
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Re: R31 shipstats

I dont think Etd are very good at all. so could u elaborate?
Im not quite sure what ur getting at, if what ur aiming at is getting the recluse to shoot DE t1 its not a good idea because there are alot more FR targeting CO/FI than DE.
And on that note the way emp works these last few rounds all emp has to hit FR t1 then DE t2 or the other way round, U cant have some hitting DE first some hiting FR first cos the emp resistance is done so its the same efficiency on both t1 and t2 so the result would be that an emp t1 DE would be really powerful (because ALL DE are weak emp resistance).
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 08:16   #227
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Re: R31 shipstats

When can I find you on IRC Gayt?
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 10:00   #228
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
These Stats seem to be heavily in favor of Etd which shouldnt be the case. I thought these stats were suppose to be balanced. If you make the Brigand init 3 then split the emp targeting on cath so that can primary target otherwise it cath fi's cant land on them at all.
What makes you say that etd are strong?

I quite like the FR/DE horde they can put together - but most people seem to think they're quite weak atm.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 10:10   #229
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Re: R31 shipstats

Any chance of a up to date version anytime soon? Surely there has been some changes these last few days.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 10:58   #230
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Re: R31 shipstats

New set is here. Swapped etd/zik big class ships. Makes etd CR/BS a bit better. Thinking of making the broad init 6 and the dragon init 5.

Zik frigs have generally had an A/C D/C boost, brigand t2 is out. Ideally this gets put into beta test which lets people familiarise themselves and give a bit of feedback.

I know betatesting itself is shit, but people's reactions to the stats are the important thing.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:08   #231
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Re: R31 shipstats

are dragons/gryphons init gonna be nerfed plz? can bomber init go to 8 plz too!
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:08   #232
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Re: R31 shipstats

That ofc brings back the problem that FR/DE attacks simply wont land cos a few 0's are far to deadly. FR/DE is not viable in attack without a ship that can stop the phantom. The fact the phant is not a brutally efficient killer dosent enter into it, on average attacks dont land if something is killing them first.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:18   #233
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
That ofc brings back the problem that FR/DE attacks simply wont land cos a few 0's are far to deadly. FR/DE is not viable in attack without a ship that can stop the phantom. The fact the phant is not a brutally efficient killer dosent enter into it, on average attacks dont land if something is killing them first.
That's always been that problem with xand. I've ensured there's 2 EMP-ing attack fleets which can deal with phantom but I am slightly uncomfortable with it.

A potential improvement is to move cath DE down to FR, and either zik or terran FR up to DE. Cath can stun, so them being targetted first isn't really a problem. Meanwhile the terrans are now very tough to kill through. I'm not so keen on this though.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:23   #234
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Re: R31 shipstats

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are dragons/gryphons init gonna be nerfed plz? can bomber init go to 8 plz too!
I don't know about nerfing dragon init. Terran BS is meant to be able to hit xand and is targeting is set up to give etd a good chance.

I'm probably gonna push kraken init back to 21 as an aside.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:27   #235
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Re: R31 shipstats

the problem is u can discount emp because that is firing at all the other xan co stuff which has to be calced in if it cant be discounted from a br in a newsie
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:29   #236
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
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That's always been that problem with xand. I've ensured there's 2 EMP-ing attack fleets which can deal with phantom but I am slightly uncomfortable with it.
that does not really help when you assume that the xans have their revs and banshees there as flack
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:37   #237
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Re: R31 shipstats

on the plus side terr FR is now ok again as the revamped brig wont be built in sufficient numbers to be terrifying
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:37   #238
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
I don't know about nerfing dragon init. Terran BS is meant to be able to hit xand and is targeting is set up to give etd a good chance.
gryphon/dragons and bombers totally ruins the bs/cr, those bombers have to fire last with D/C like that (hello to xan players building just co and bombers), terran have 2 of the best anti cr/bs which are both going to be very popular as there will be plenty of ter fr/de planets and bs planets.

basicly what iam trying to say is those 3 ships are going to make unviable all cr/bs except terran bs (which are overpowered tanks anyway). in first set of stats the init advantage was to the Bs/Cr ships that targeted fr/de and this has now been reversed, i think this is a mistake, all fr/de ships that target capital hulls should fire after or at the same time as them unless they are emp.

p.s. can paladin switch to Bs now as etd bs/cr will have huge problems with shadows, i think it is needed to make etd bs an option.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:45   #239
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Re: R31 shipstats

essentially kb and I are arguing about the same thing, any ship (in particular a xan one ie bombers/phants) that has an eta advantage so 2 ticks to gather (plus fake options) and a really good init alowing it to fire first makes it very hard for those of the metaclass above (excluding emp) to land.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 11:50   #240
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatcher View Post
basicly what iam trying to say is those 3 ships are going to make unviable all cr/bs except terran bs (which are overpowered tanks anyway). in first set of stats the init advantage was to the Bs/Cr ships that targeted fr/de and this has now been reversed, i think this is a mistake, all fr/de ships that target capital hulls should fire after or at the same time as them unless they are emp.
I dont see what has changed with the bomber, it fires at the same time as the fireblade, and etd's have the paladin to emp 1st, terrans and xan cr/bs fire 1st and ofc cat does, and surely you dont expect zik to fire before the bomber? The only change in regards extra fr def against cr/bs so far as I can see is with the gryphon which fires at the same time as the wyvern. The gryphon is likely to be tied up in fr/de attack fleets except for a few ppl who go for ter co attack fleet.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 12:01   #241
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
essentially kb and I are arguing about the same thing, any ship (in particular a xan one ie bombers/phants) that has an eta advantage so 2 ticks to gather (plus fake options) and a really good init alowing it to fire first makes it very hard for those of the metaclass above (excluding emp) to land.
at this point someone starts spouting about 'tradition' and how xan 'should fire fire first do lots of damage, have the advantage of cloak and be fast'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I dont see what has changed with the bomber, it fires at the same time as the fireblade, and etd's have the paladin to emp 1st, terrans and xan cr/bs fire 1st and ofc cat does, and surely you dont expect zik to fire before the bomber? The only change in regards extra fr def against cr/bs so far as I can see is with the gryphon which fires at the same time as the wyvern. The gryphon is likely to be tied up in fr/de attack fleets except for a few ppl who go for ter co attack fleet.
that the bomber fires same time as fireblade is the problem, it doesnt matter about the a/c really as it gets to fire all their shots, should bombers go to init 8 with these current stats then they will still be a problem for etd bs, but not a deal breaker. (frankly imho the paladin could be scrapped and etd fireblade init brought down to 6)

gryphon still has 2 hrs advantage and yet enjoys initative and huge a/c, one of those has to change, i have a big enough problem with dragons with their init advatage and huge armour without them also being fast!. ok fr/de terrans will use them on attacks, but that also means they will be around in huge numbers in the universe, amazingly not everyone attacks everynight. oh and terran get a 20% salvage bonus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 12:05   #242
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Re: R31 shipstats

Why even bother to build the bomber then, theres no way they survive every single other ships shooting at them first anyhow.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 12:07   #243
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Why even bother to build the bomber then, theres no way they survive every single other ships shooting at them first anyhow.
cloak and speed plus very good d/c if they fire, tbh thats effectivly the position they were in r29 and they were still arguably overpowered.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 12:27   #244
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Re: R31 shipstats

Okay, I was under the impression that their a\c d\c was uninimpressive at best. Problem is that they wont fire though. I expect that any xan will have to invest in a substantial FR fleet something which again will nerf their fi\co fleet quite a bit. Its gonna be interesting to see.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 12:36   #245
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Re: R31 shipstats

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cloak and speed plus very good d/c if they fire, tbh thats effectivly the position they were in r29 and they were still arguably overpowered.
round 29 spectre A/C 421 D/C 506 that is much higher than proposed r31 bomber A/C 364 D/C 485 round 30's bomber was A/C 397 D/C 458 but also targeted de as T3 so I think that atm its worse than it has been in the past.

imo kb cr/bs ppl just have to accept that there will always be alot of bombers or equivalent around.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 13:30   #246
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Re: R31 shipstats

What is the brigand really for now? to a zik surely cat DE is a free meal, and killing it is not what U want, for the etd a better solution would be to swap the corsair and Tycoon's initiative - indeed why have a stealer which steals b4 the corsair if U then make a ship that stops it attacking ziks.
The only conclusion is that the brig is there to fire before the terr cerberus, but the terr can then go FR only, as no FR targets FR this does not seem to be adding to the risk U run.

I would probably make it An FR targetting FI init 3 A/C 400 D/C 400 (perhaps less) with quite a low emp resistance to prevent it being a pest to cats; the benefits of it being FR seem clearly to be that the Revenant and the Locust get to hit it back
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 14:02   #247
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Re: R31 shipstats

removing it would prevent zik fr from being good at attacking anyone, at least they can attack ter fr/de as it is
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 16:00   #248
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Re: R31 shipstats

etd pod still Cr (instead of Bs) mistake?

btw if zik having 3 different pods is giving them an unfair advantage, how is xan having 3 pods fair? unless terran init is going to be changed will their 20% salvage bonus be removed?
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 16:16   #249
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Re: R31 shipstats

1st up having looked at the wraith it seems pretty amazing to me. I remember thinking in round 28 that the wraith was too good when it was initiative 5 and only single target on Fr. I dont actually have round 28's stats saved but looking at the initial ones in the round 28 stats thread this round's wraith is actually better on A/C and D/C than that round's. Anyhow as per my crusade for fr/de I think this ship is too good

as Killerbee has mentioned I disagree with xan having 3 pod classes, it was not really a problem last round as xan was not a particularly good race with any of them. However if xan is good with several shipstypes then it can become a nightmare for defenders in terms of fakes.

as it is difficult to make all these fleets work should we not reduce the number of classes with pods? having multiple classes works for cat due to the way emp works, and just about for ter due to their defensive advantages, but for xan it gives them an extra potential advantage and it seems to be that we cant have three balanced xan fleets at once.
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Unread 12 Apr 2009, 16:21   #250
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Re: R31 shipstats

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as it is difficult to make all these fleets work should we not reduce the number of classes with pods? having multiple classes works for cat due to the way emp works, and just about for ter due to their defensive advantages, but for xan it gives them an extra potential advantage and it seems to be that we cant have three balanced xan fleets at once.
agreed, as effectivly etd have just 2 pod classes and so does zik, i think it is hard to argue xan should have 3. alternativly return to pre r30 where each race had 2 pods and make the exception for cath.
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