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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 19:52   #101
Thatcher
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
would it not be more sensible to solve this by making the pulsar fi and the Vsharrak a co? though that would then cause the same problem for cat/etd co. or else simply make all 3 xan ships as fi which ofc increases the power of the xan fi fleet as a whole, tho presumably makes it less effective against cat de which seems to be the race/ship in question.
that cld work, although phantom as co? Vsharrak & pulsar as fi??
wld mean pillagers cld steal phantoms, i like that idea
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 20:04   #102
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Thatcher View Post
that cld work, although phantom as co? Vsharrak & pulsar as fi??
Gate proposed the phant/pulsar class swap earlier. It'd make xan fi a horrifically bad fleet as phants would then fire at you before you fire back (and their armour is low enough already to balance then relative the other races).

Quote:
or else simply make all 3 xan ships as fi which ofc increases the power of the xan fi fleet as a whole
This destroys the advantage the other 2 emp anti-fi/co fleets have of being able to freeze all the co first (I'm actually having a conversation with appoco right now about this as I've only just remembered that this isn't actually how the combat engine works heh).

Edit: Apparently they will be, huzzah!
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 20:15   #103
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Re: r30 ship stats

phants co and vshk/pulsar fi

well wld mean xan fi/co cant hit xan, and xan fi def wld stop xan fi/co attack fleets, doesnt sound so bad to me, e/r wld have to be altered on pulsar and phant

tbh quite like it, makes xan defnitly vunerable. imo xan fi/co shd be hard to play.
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 20:25   #104
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Re: r30 ship stats

did i misread your post JBG ? Cause i thought you just confirmed its gonna be 3 FI xan ships? I do hope this spider change was just to make ur point, and will change it back

Back to other parts of the stats, theres more than just xan on cath action ofc..

im a little worried about etd's stats..i cant seem to find the exact problem , but it all seems too messy, if i choose for a certain attackfleet as main fleet and 1 ship as defship (ideally suitable for both ally as selfdef) i always end up being massively weak vs 1 class, while other races dont suffer from that in same ways..but tbh i might miss the importance of the stealships or the 2 cloacked ones so i hope someone can give me nice strat for playing Etd
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 20:25   #105
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Re: r30 ship stats

It doesn't make them vulnerable. It makes them shit. The phant would kill at about 110% efficiency (110% not being far off emp efficiency rates) before the vsh fires back. Phants currently stop xan fi/co incs, they're just not retardedly good at it as this change would make them. I don't want anything to be hard to play, I want balanced, fun stats.
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 20:32   #106
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Onim View Post
did i misread your post JBG ? Cause i thought you just confirmed its gonna be 3 FI xan ships? I do hope this spider change was just to make ur point, and will change it back
No, it'll be as it is. Apparently my e/r on the fi ships is low enough that they'll all be frozen before co gets touched. And yeah I'll change the spider back.

Quote:
im a little worried about etd's stats..i cant seem to find the exact problem , but it all seems too messy, if i choose for a certain attackfleet as main fleet and 1 ship as defship (ideally suitable for both ally as selfdef) i always end up being massively weak vs 1 class, while other races dont suffer from that in same ways..but tbh i might miss the importance of the stealships or the 2 cloacked ones so i hope someone can give me nice strat for playing Etd
Personally if I had to pick a strategy I'd pick etd fr/bs. There are a lot of options for creative playing in etd just by virtue of having 4 pods and emp/cloak/steal and normal ships. Steal a little visible fr (or build some de maybe) and fake your fr as your bs. Your fr is naturally strong due to being a pure fakeable fleet. You could go de and co and your fleets feed into each other (the stealships that is) although I'd go heavier on the de due to your relative weakness to cr/bs. I also think, especially with a ten week round a lot of planets will be able to steal enough pulsars (there'll be a lot of them about) and co pods to be able to fake co as fr.
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 11:40   #107
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Re: r30 ship stats

i am confused

will u change the spider back to targeting fi/co now ?
or will it stay co/fi ?
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 12:03   #108
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
i am confused

will u change the spider back to targeting fi/co now ?
or will it stay co/fi ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
No, it'll be as it is. Apparently my e/r on the fi ships is low enough that they'll all be frozen before co gets touched. And yeah I'll change the spider back.
spider will go back to t1 fi t2 co i guess

keeps the pulsar as a uber ship thou
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 12:50   #109
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Re: r30 ship stats

You are going to have to team anyhow!
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 13:22   #110
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
It doesn't make them vulnerable. It makes them shit. The phant would kill at about 110% efficiency (110% not being far off emp efficiency rates) before the vsh fires back. Phants currently stop xan fi/co incs, they're just not retardedly good at it as this change would make them. I don't want anything to be hard to play, I want balanced, fun stats.
Making their init equal would be a fix for this problem.

Ofc, it makes using phantoms to stop vsh hitting CO def weak, but by being CO, phants would be providing flak to let (some) other CO def shoot anyway...
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 16:17   #111
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Making their init equal would be a fix for this problem.

Ofc, it makes using phantoms to stop vsh hitting CO def weak, but by being CO, phants would be providing flak to let (some) other CO def shoot anyway...
I like my current solution where an over-abundance of xan can actually fix itself. Phants team-up with everything that makes ally def at the minute. You're either flakking other fi or you're firing before the vsh can fire itself.

Quote:
Making their init equal would be a fix for this problem.
I've already outlined my disgust at such a solution.
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 16:32   #112
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Re: r30 ship stats

etd still seems a bit overpowered, certainly with them being able to steal 3 types of ships from every other race in the uni. might just be ennoyed that other race then zik can steal so many.

edit: or taking away a pod would work for me to

then again i might be wrong about this.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 16:40   #113
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I like my current solution where an over-abundance of xan can actually fix itself. Phants team-up with everything that makes ally def at the minute.
so the solution to strong xan is to let loads of ppl go xan....

thats not exactly what iam hoping for, large percent xan unis stagnate v quick and with a 10 week rd i was hoping that would not be the case.

can we agree that xan fi/co attacks has huge advantages, they are fast, can cloak and can fake both attacks and defence. can they therefore have s**t ships and not good ones thus making going 100% fi/co a hard option to play. xan bs and xan fr look suitably vunerable and iam happy with them.

removing the xan fi pod solves this as pulsars/phants can only be used for def.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 17:33   #114
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Re: r30 ship stats

i think Xan ships are beatble in many ways and you can see the same by running some BCalcs. Removing fast small classed roider from Xan would be like raising the init of EMP ships or so... You get the idea...
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 17:52   #115
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Thatcher View Post
so the solution to strong xan is to let loads of ppl go xan....
No, more that it solves it's own problem.

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thats not exactly what iam hoping for, large percent xan unis stagnate v quick and with a 10 week rd i was hoping that would not be the case.
Xan aren't exceptionally uber with these stats though. The fi/co fleet is a standard option, but their FR fleet isn't as good as it has been in previous rounds. Not sure about the BS fleet, but I don't see it resembling the CR fleet they had round before last.

Quote:
can we agree that xan fi/co attacks has huge advantages, they are fast, can cloak and can fake both attacks and defence.
So we shouldn't have any co roiding fleets either by your logic. As well, any race can fake attacks/defense.

Quote:
can they therefore have s**t ships and not good ones thus making going 100% fi/co a hard option to play
They're not all that great to begin with, so again, I don't see your point other than "Xan fi/co are too strong and I don't like them so remove them!!!1122" which is pretty shit tbh.

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xan bs and xan fr look suitably vunerable and iam happy with them.
They're both kinda shit, in other words. Heh.

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removing the xan fi pod solves this as pulsars/phants can only be used for def.
We've already covered this.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 17:59   #116
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by SUFC View Post
i think Xan ships are beatble in many ways and you can see the same by running some BCalcs. Removing fast small classed roider from Xan would be like raising the init of EMP ships or so... You get the idea...

beatable but insanly easy to play with lots of advantages

oki putting it simply, why wld i not just tell all of ASS to go xan, build fi/co and spam bombers?

this is exactly what will be happening unless xan fi/co attacks is removed or weakened
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 18:07   #117
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
So we shouldn't have any co roiding fleets either by your logic. As well, any race can fake attacks/defense.
ok xan has:
low eta
low init
total coverage with pulsar/phant/vsh/bomber (ie concentration of forces)
cloaked ships

agreed their stats dont appear uber, but their fi/co can all be used on their attack fleet and so they have excellent benefits from concentration of forces. both etd and cath co/fi fleets have severe disadvantages, enough to make them difficult to play.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 18:16   #118
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Thatcher View Post
beatable but insanly easy to play with lots of advantages

oki putting it simply, why wld i not just tell all of ASS to go xan, build fi/co and spam bombers?

this is exactly what will be happening unless xan fi/co attacks is removed or weakened
You can do that but with the current set of stats u get owned by EMP ships. Actually Cath seems most solid and powerfull atm, but they need that to attract more players when most of players only see them as inc magnets.

Edit: I personally see the situation in very bad way if you need to choose to attack or defend with your ships. It makes inc more easier to cover even if its a team when Xan has dropped one of those FI/CO ships away from the fleet.

Xan being able to fake from start till end is the biggest and most unfair option in the game if you want to see it that way. In PIA (that's based on early PA?) the thing has been solved with 'Military Scan' that shows the full usage of fleet slots, what and how many ships there is in each fleet and base.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 18:24   #119
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by SUFC View Post
You can do that but with the current set of stats u get owned by EMP ships. Actually Cath seems most solid and powerfull atm
crack on lofty, u go cath, i bet u will regret it after week 2.


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Originally Posted by SUFC View Post
Xan being able to fake from start till end is the biggest and most unfair option in the game if you want to see it that way. In PIA (that's based on early PA?) the thing has been solved with 'Military Scan' that shows the full usage of fleet slots, what and how many ships there is in each fleet and base.
agreed but its when they have truly substantial fleets in the middle/late game that xan faking comes into its own.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 18:28   #120
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Re: r30 ship stats

The "Military Scan" is another feature they copied from PA. It was removed around r10 or so because quite frankly, it makes the game even more dull than it is now.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 18:37   #121
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Re: r30 ship stats

I'm thinking of going Cath as the DE(+fr) fleet doesnt have many flows and the only bigger hole (DE).. well, there ain't DE ships that could harm your fleet. ETD and TER Fr is gonna be constant visitor, but coverable with 1 def mainly.
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Unread 4 Jan 2009, 19:35   #122
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Thatcher View Post
so the solution to strong xan is to let loads of ppl go xan..

thats not exactly what iam hoping for, large percent xan unis stagnate v quick and with a 10 week rd i was hoping that would not be the case.
I'm saying it's self-correcting as cochese says. Frankly I'm pretty sure you realised this as well so if you wilfully misinterpret me again I'm just going to start ignoring your posts.

Quote:
can we agree that xan fi/co attacks has huge advantages, they are fast, can cloak and can fake both attacks and defence. can they therefore have s**t ships and not good ones thus making going 100% fi/co a hard option to play.
I don't think the ships are that good.

Quote:
removing the xan fi pod solves this as pulsars/phants can only be used for def.
Not doing it, would be boring.

Quote:
oki putting it simply, why wld i not just tell all of ASS to go xan, build fi/co and spam bombers?
There are plenty of strategies I'd recommend like that. In general having any sort of strategy trumps having no strategy.
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Unread 5 Jan 2009, 01:53   #123
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Re: r30 ship stats

im fine with you making the stats for next round JBG
but to keep in the spirit of asc (wich i got to enjoy for one round, no pun intended, honestly)
don't be shit and make it look good if you fail afterall.

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Unread 5 Jan 2009, 22:57   #124
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Re: r30 ship stats

is there a bcalc up with current betatstats on it?
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Unread 5 Jan 2009, 23:07   #125
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Re: r30 ship stats

http://beta.roid.me.uk/

**** knows if it works.
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Unread 5 Jan 2009, 23:11   #126
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Re: r30 ship stats

What the f**k is that supposed to be..
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 00:11   #127
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Re: r30 ship stats

try http://beta.thrud.co.uk/
im pretty sure its right
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 00:18   #128
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Re: r30 ship stats

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try http://beta.thrud.co.uk/
im pretty sure its right
That's the same one I posted nublet.
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 00:22   #129
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Re: r30 ship stats

err not for me it aint; they are both titled Thrud's Planetarion Battle Calculator Round 27 (beta) but there the similarities end, yours actually does go to r27 beta stats (very nostalgic, but not helpful), and for me at least mine goes to r30 beta stats
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 09:08   #130
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Re: r30 ship stats

Thanks, looks right Londo.
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 12:59   #131
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Re: r30 ship stats

I'm likeing the 3 roid fleet option but will study them more when i have time
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 13:08   #132
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
err not for me it aint; they are both titled Thrud's Planetarion Battle Calculator Round 27 (beta) but there the similarities end, yours actually does go to r27 beta stats (very nostalgic, but not helpful), and for me at least mine goes to r30 beta stats
Your right, my bad, I'd always assumed they essentially pointed to the same thing.
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 14:31   #133
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Re: r30 ship stats

Is there a reason why ETD cloak ships have bigger E/R than other cloaked ships?
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 14:42   #134
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Is there a reason why ETD cloak ships have bigger E/R than other cloaked ships?
They're about 1% harder to emp than xan fr, a relatively minor difference. This is because you can invest all your res into xan fr and you can't do this for etd fr.
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 21:33   #135
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Re: r30 ship stats

Though about doing something with the pod distribution?
Atm its only
1 fi class pod
2 co
4 fr
2 de
3 cr
3 bs

Would be nice with one more fi atlest.
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 21:54   #136
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Re: r30 ship stats

I think the harpy should be improved slightly. At even value, the phant kills 2-3 times as much value in harpy as it loses. Even with salvage.

Making it close to even might be nicer?

I know FI xands have to split their investment across 3 ships, but like you said, they're really hard to underpower.

*shrug*
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Unread 6 Jan 2009, 23:05   #137
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Re: r30 ship stats

Id have to agree somewhat, I think the last rounds have somewhat lacked Terran being good and we need some Ter cr\bs in the uni to balance things out imo.
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 00:52   #138
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Re: r30 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
I think the harpy should be improved slightly. At even value, the phant kills 2-3 times as much value in harpy as it loses. Even with salvage.

Making it close to even might be nicer?

I know FI xands have to split their investment across 3 ships, but like you said, they're really hard to underpower.

*shrug*
You are aware thruds is broken right? After salvage there the terran loses about 20-25k value, excluding whatever bonus he gets for his rank. I would still consider strengthening the harpy more but I'm doubtful on it. Basically I'd consider strengthening terran and cath still as I think they're the naturally weakest races.

Quote:
Though about doing something with the pod distribution?
That's deliberate. Only one fi class pod means everyone's anti-fi fleets will be focused towards whatever does best versus xan fi. Only two de class pods means it was relatively easy to do the stats so there was no de class anti-de. At this stage it'd be pretty hard to change a pod class as well heh.
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 14:44   #139
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Re: r30 ship stats

That does mean any emp def(allie def atlest) will emp the xan before any co partner and so reduce or stop him from caping alltogether, and lett the co partner still cap. :S
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 15:32   #140
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Re: r30 ship stats

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That does mean any emp def(allie def atlest) will emp the xan before any co partner and so reduce or stop him from caping alltogether, and lett the co partner still cap. :S
Indeed. So it's fairly possible to have def which nerfs the xan's cap without getting you killed but you won't need to emp the entire fleet.
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 15:36   #141
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Re: r30 ship stats

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That does mean any emp def(allie def atlest) will emp the xan before any co partner and so reduce or stop him from caping alltogether, and lett the co partner still cap. :S
I can think of only one possible scenario in which the Xan Fi does not cap, while the Co does, namely in the case of a Xan Fi/Cat Co teamup, with too little EMP defence and no kill/steal defence. Problem is, sending only EMP defence is retarded, and to send too little to fully stun all attackers is even more so. This scenario is thus unlikely to happen.
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 16:09   #142
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Re: r30 ship stats

its much more likely to occur when it is an emp planet that is under attack and if that player finds him/herself able to build enough to emp the xan fi and not the co, if its a cat attacking with the xan then it can be worth doing as it cuts the xan out of cap and the player under attack does not loose anything to the cat
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 16:20   #143
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Re: r30 ship stats

And its also the possibility of cath def being real and other def being fake meaning only the cath actually shoots and thus emps the xan!
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 18:04   #144
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Re: r30 ship stats

Because yeah, faking EMP rocks!
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 18:25   #145
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Re: r30 ship stats

huh
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 18:31   #146
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Re: r30 ship stats

hmm if I have sent emp def then sending a fake kill def is better than none at all surely?

to clear it up I dont think isildurx was referring to faking emp def (tho I have seen it done... but yes its silly in this context of not emping all attacking ships) but to fake killships (probably cloaked) along with the emp, making a recall much more likely than if there was only emp def. Im sure its not just alliances I have been in who have been forced to do this at some points
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Unread 7 Jan 2009, 19:38   #147
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Re: r30 ship stats

If one assumes the value of the xan and cath to be 50/50. then emping the xan fully would mean the planet would lose 50%less roids, how does that suck may I ask?
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Unread 8 Jan 2009, 03:45   #148
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Re: r30 ship stats

I Think the Etd Lancer with init 4 would prevent a Xan FiCo heavy universe. Better than weakening the stats of a ship, give it one strong enemy.
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Unread 8 Jan 2009, 07:11   #149
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Re: r30 ship stats

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I Think the Etd Lancer with init 4 would prevent a Xan FiCo heavy universe. Better than weakening the stats of a ship, give it one strong enemy.
if you do that, then you'd almost have to reduce the init on the Centaur to 4 as well - otherwise virtually no one will build them. /shrug
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Unread 8 Jan 2009, 07:23   #150
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Re: r30 ship stats

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I Think the Etd Lancer with init 4 would prevent a Xan FiCo heavy universe. Better than weakening the stats of a ship, give it one strong enemy.
Why would you do this? Wouldn't easier change be changing Pulsar init up to 5 so it would match all those FI/CO shooting FR+DE ships? Altho this would really nerf Xans, but they still could fake and come in masses...
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