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Unread 8 Nov 2008, 12:58   #1
Gate
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Optimal Cathaar fleet

I think caths will struggle this round; they can't hurt FR/DE fleets and have awful EMP against at least one of them. There's also some nasty defence against them (spectres/thief/cutlass) and I feel cath are the weakest race. So they need to pick their fleet very carefully!


If anyone sees a way of making them tougher, please do share: after some thinking I came up with a suggested fleet of locust/roach/scarab/mantis.

As always, it's better to pick a single attack fleet early, and build it all round long. IMO, the cruiser (CR) fleet is probably better than the corvette (CO) fleet. If you buy a CO fleet, then you have to spend lots of your resources on beetles eg up to a third of your res on anti FI/CO. This leaves 2/3rds for anti FR/DE/CR/BS.

If you go CR, you can spend a few of your resources on mantis and be avoided by FI/CO all round long. You should have enough mantis (or 'potential mantis', ie stockpiled resources) to do enough damage to make you an ugly target, which depends on your roids & value. This should only take up 10% or so of your resources, so you have 90% to spend on anti FR/DE/CR/BS - much better!

Spectres could ruin you, so an etd/ter attack partner will probably be required later on. And I'd build scarab/roach as your attack fleet, locust as your ally def, and mantis as self/galdef.

ATTACKING: etd & caths without locust are your targets. With a terran or etd you can hit xand/zik too. Note you don't really need tarantula; they're only useful vs dragons, which should be rare in defence. The loss of tara isn't bad for your attack.

DEFENDING: Scarab/tarant fleets could be raped by CR all round, whilst loc/scarabs will be avoided. Locusts are also better than tara against terran BS: they beat wyvern 1-on-1 and if a terran fleet is big enough to wipe out your locs then it's big enough to bash through an equally sized tarantula fleet. The only thing tarants are better against are etd CR/BS, but there's not many etds and if they don't build many pillager then locusts are better anyway!
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Unread 8 Nov 2008, 18:46   #2
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Re: Optimal Cathaar fleet

hi gate o/
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Unread 8 Nov 2008, 20:58   #3
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Re: Optimal Cathaar fleet

Seriously doubt 10% mantis will be enough unless your really small and give low xp. Every big cath will have to build alot of mantis, so muhc that Im not sure its a viable strategy at all.
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Unread 9 Nov 2008, 00:15   #4
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Re: Optimal Cathaar fleet

I get the impression from several players who have gone cat with mantis that they are needing a surprising number to prevent fi/co incs on them. And I agree with you about the locust being better than the tarantula for defence, the main disadvantage is that when you attack with just scarabs and roach without tarantulas you paint a target on yourself to be defended against by dragons - probably wont be too common in alliance defence tho.

also U really want to be attacking etd when the widow will be reducing your firepower making it very easy to get defence? I would have thought that would be enough deterrent for cats not to attack etd.
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Unread 9 Nov 2008, 11:28   #5
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Re: Optimal Cathaar fleet

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
I get the impression from several players who have gone cat with mantis that they are needing a surprising number to prevent fi/co incs on them.
It's still very early in the round, so fleet value per roid is low. When you have a lot more fleet value per roid, you can afford more mantis per roid & do more damage per roid.

10% of resources is a conservative estimate, but I've checked numbers and I'm pretty sure you can get away with far less resources in mantis than you could in beetles.

Quote:
the main disadvantage is that when you attack with just scarabs and roach without tarantulas you paint a target on yourself to be defended against by dragons - probably wont be too common in alliance defence tho.
I'd hope there's not too many dragons around for def.

Also: if you're attacking with all your CR, then you don't have anything for ally defence. If you don't build loc, then you have to keep some of your CR at home anyway... I'd prefer loc for that.

Quote:
U really want to be attacking etd when the widow will be reducing your firepower making it very easy to get defence? I would have thought that would be enough deterrent for cats not to attack etd.
Who can you attack then? :P

Terrans, ziks and xands can all make themselves tough. Sure, you'll be able to hit the odd xand (probably FI based ones) and odd zik (CR ones), but I suspect that you'll be pretty close to covered in most cases where you're attacking decent sized targets.

Some etds will go heavy broadsword and be very tough to hit, but I think you're gonna have to rely on etd/cath targets.

Like I said, I think cath are the weakest race and they're going to struggle regardless...
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Unread 22 Nov 2008, 17:31   #6
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Re: Optimal Cathaar fleet

If a Cathaar wants to have a "concentrated" fleet, he is better off going CO. If a Cathaar knows, and planned for the eventual need of attack partners, CR is perhaps the better option.

As of now (~pt500), all except "uber-Cathaars" are seeing a little bit of a slow down in their growth. Their research advantage has been off-set by time, and team ups are starting to build sufficient strength to worm past their potent emp. On attack, the fleets of the universe are either building ships which cause a Cathaar to "spread" his attack (example: Ziks usually have Cr and DE now, meaning scarabs/tarans AND roach), or have built to a size that single fleet covers are a real possibility vs Cathaar-only inc; so all but "uber-Caths" need team-ups now. This is just the way of Cathaar.

So if you concede the "need" of attack team ups, seeking to "concentrate" any of the middle level Cathaars is probably an exercise in futility.

So what I would "suggest" as Cathaar builds are:

CO heavy Cathaars-

Invest roughly 60% of total resources into Attack fleets. Make your CO fleets SLIGHTLY Viper heavy (roughly 55-60% by value), and team bash Xan with another Xan, or with a Corsair/Cutlass Zik (who has fi/co pods of course).

Xans of the uni have concentrated a bit too heavily into Phantoms, and have overlooked Wraiths a bit. Make your Xan partner build a few extra Wraiths to bash down those unfrozen Phatoms, and rely on your Vipers to deny a FR build. Try to select Xan who does not have FR (or have very few), so a Spectre fleet build does not flak for excessive Spirit numbers already built.

If your attack partner is a Corsair/Cutlass Zik, then you may wish to amp up your Beetle % a bit to suppress Phantoms. Corsairs make for a very strong "threat" to a Zik FR build, but Cutlass are vulnerable to un-frozen Phantoms. The "best" build defense versus a Cath/Zik team up on a Xan target is Wraiths- but again, many Xan are loathe to build them.

A CO Cathaar's Defense fleet can tend to concentrate in Tarantula/Locust/Mantis. If the 40% defense fleet build is dispersed 60% Tarantula/30% Locust/10% Mantis, then ally defense is quite do-able vs BS/CR. Buccaneers can either survive a freeze, or flak for the Locusts, as can Gryphons/Spectres. Dragons can def vs Terran BS behind the Tarantula freeze.

FR/DE defense is handled by the large Viper numbers of the attack fleet. Yes, this is not a "great" comfort vs ETD widow/FR combo's, but Roaches (with init 3 emp) have minimal usage against Widows anyway. The viper freeze may be enough to bring Ghosts/Drakes into usefulness too.

FI/CO defense does not require an exceptional number of the under-effective (but no loss def) Mantis. So with the Beetles of a CO heavy Cathaar, more than 5k Mantis per 1 million planet value should not be needed.

CR Cathaar dont have quite the luxury of the defense concentration inherent in CO Cathaar.

They tend to require a specialty build based up the race they seek to hit. Xan targets call for Roach heavy builds. Terran targets want Tarantula heavy builds. ETD hits may be best with Scarab heavy builds.

In the case of CR heavy Cathaar, I would suggest a 45-50% Tarantula, 30-35% Roach, 15-25% Scarab mix, plus a Cathaar or a Zik team up for best attack effectiveness. This mix in the attack fleet should allow good attack options, plus provide a decent chance at self defense.

The defense ships of a CR Cathaar are also somewhat wide spread. They need some Locust behind their Tarantulas for def, some Vipers to help their late emp'ing Roaches, and they need Mantis to supress fi/co incoming. I would suggest 40% of fleet value be in defense fleets, with a split of:

50% Viper, 15% Beetle, 25% Locust, 10% Mantis.

It is of great importance to ANY Cathaar that he keep a decent stock pile from this point on (~48-72 ticks at least). This stockpile is vital to you increasing your build in whichever direction best serves the defense your alliance can send you.
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Unread 22 Nov 2008, 22:07   #7
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Re: Optimal Cathaar fleet

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
ATTACKING: etd & caths without locust are your targets. With a terran or etd you can hit xand/zik too. Note you don't really need tarantula; they're only useful vs dragons, which should be rare in defence. The loss of tara isn't bad for your attack.
cath + zik cr can also do other ziks easily with maras shooting be4 buccs

but what i saw so far this round as cath that there is so much anti cr/bs around that its hard to land.. if we go with 2 cath and 1 zik with about 200k cr totally you still c often 7 or 8 deffleets against ya..
but that is life of a cath
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Unread 22 Nov 2008, 22:11   #8
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Re: Optimal Cathaar fleet

Was always bound to be stupid amounts of spectres and BWs around
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