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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 11:11   #51
Mzyxptlk
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Re: r29 shipstats

I don't see how. Wouldn't it just result in more roid swapping between Xans, and fail to affect other races?
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 11:31   #52
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Re: r29 shipstats

that a whole load of the 'best' players in the game went xan must in itself say that xan was pretty good no? I seem to remember there being a similar argument over ziks when asc went for them in r26, and ziks as a race did pretty much as well the next round without asc's help - I dont have any figures apart from saved T100s so not too certain.

having the alliance as a whole as xan probably makes a particular difference tho - there is a potential to have loads of fake fleets both in attack and defence effectively negating what looked like a hole in the xan fleet that ter and cat de could go through them pretty easily, in reality this has often not been the case because of the 'possible' numbers in defence.

more roidswapping between xans could however mean that xans more often loose value as there is more chance of making a mistake if there are more landings/times being landed on - particularly against other xans as there is greater uncertainty.
thats probably too 'what if' tho!
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 11:41   #53
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
that a whole load of the 'best' players in the game went xan must in itself say that xan was pretty good no? I seem to remember there being a similar argument over ziks when asc went for them in r26, and ziks as a race did pretty much as well the next round without asc's help - I dont have any figures apart from saved T100s so not too certain.
You can't really compare the impact Ascendancy had in r26 to the impact we had in r28 though. This round we utterly destroyed everyone from tick 72 onwards, in r26 we managed a narrow win in the last week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
having the alliance as a whole as xan probably makes a particular difference tho - there is a potential to have loads of fake fleets both in attack and defence effectively negating what looked like a hole in the xan fleet that ter and cat de could go through them pretty easily, in reality this has often not been the case because of the 'possible' numbers in defence.
It is worth noting that 90% of the incomings on my (Xan) planet were Co or Cr/Bs fleets.

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
more roidswapping between xans could however mean that xans more often loose value as there is more chance of making a mistake if there are more landings/times being landed on - particularly against other xans as there is greater uncertainty.
thats probably too 'what if' tho!
On the other hand it would also increase XP for Xan planets, because they'd prefer hitting fat Xans over unfat Ter/Cath/Etd.

Further, since we're talking about top100 planets, people in there don't generally crash lots of fleet.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 11:56   #54
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Re: r29 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You can't really compare the impact Ascendancy had in r26 to the impact we had in r28 though. This round we utterly destroyed everyone from tick 72 onwards, in r26 we managed a narrow win in the last week.
I was not comparing the situations in the round itself, simply the posting on the forums, which In hope you agree seems pretty similar. in terms of the races themselves it would be very difficult to make a comparison because of the different ways they work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
It is worth noting that 90% of the incomings on my (Xan) planet were Co or Cr/Bs fleets.
the terrans and cats are not doing a very good job then! I am certainly hitting xans most days - and being attacked back by xans most days

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
On the other hand it would also increase XP for Xan planets, because they'd prefer hitting fat Xans over unfat Ter/Cath/Etd.
true enough, did not think of that, probably the more relevent since alot of xans this round seem to have reletively little xp (effect of being the biggest I guess) but everyone exchanging xp is probably a more even playing field

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Further, since we're talking about top100 planets, people in there don't generally crash lots of fleet.
seems an odd argument somehow, generally T100 players crash less it is true but it normally does not requite much crashing in order to keep them out of the T100 - they are often not T100 in a given round precicely because they have crashed more value than usual. presumably there is a pool of about 200-300 players who are likely to be T100 at the start of the round?

sorry I am probably speaking a load of jibberish here!

overall the general trend of my argument stands, that precicely because the top alliance went for a race probably means that that race was probably the best race of the round and the others just did not realise it!!
EDIT: what a lot of 'probably' I have put in there
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 12:21   #55
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
overall the general trend of my argument stands, that precicely because the top alliance went for a race probably means that that race was probably the best race of the round and the others just did not realise it!!
EDIT: what a lot of 'probably' I have put in there
Depends what you mean by 'best race'. Best for planet ranks or best for an alliance?
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 12:38   #56
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Re: r29 shipstats

in this case it means both, kargool has been thinking of getting TGV to go all zik/cat for a while, we managed to persuade him it would suck this round tho!

normally what is good for the alliance is good in the long term for the players in it - its the players of pa that dont think like that that drive me crazy!
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 12:45   #57
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
in this case it means both, kargool has been thinking of getting TGV to go all zik/cat for a while, we managed to persuade him it would suck this round tho!

normally what is good for the alliance is good in the long term for the players in it - its the players of pa that dont think like that that drive me crazy!
Tactics and their effecitiveness are all down to opinion.

This is demonstrated by the fact I'm 'loling' at the thought of an alliance considering going majority Cath as it would benefit the alliance.

Just because we decided to go mainly Xan/Zik doesn't mean that IS/WAS the best way to go this round, I just think qutie honestly we could have picked any way and still won by a country mile. For instance is 80% of Asc went ETD I'd imagine we would be having this discussion about how over powered ETD was this round!
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 13:35   #58
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Re: r29 shipstats

possibly, I dont think a vast majority etd alliance has quite the same advantages to the alliance as a vast majority xan alliance, both in terms of number of attacks and defence. perhaps I am the only dc that every round no matter the stats hates xan attacks by far the most out of all the races because most of the time you need to cover the whole potential attacking fleet of the xan - regularly two even three times, and sometimes depending on the tactics of that player you need to take into account the fighters they have as well.

in other words I think it would have been much less scary for the other alliances to take on a alliance made up mostly of any other race (last round etd with a cloaked attack fleet could have been an exception) - in this case you slaughtered what opposition you had, everyone feared asc's strength this round, but I suspect the other alliances would have both been more capable and more willing to take on an alliance that was not majority xan...

who would be scared of a mostly cat alliance! - they might be able to roid pretty quickly tho

perhaps I speculate too much.

had better get back to stats in my next post!
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Last edited by booji; 29 Sep 2008 at 15:07.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 15:03   #59
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
perhaps I am the only dc that every round no matter the stats hates xan attacks by far the most out of all the alliances because most of the time you need to cover the whole potential attacking fleet of the xan - regularly two even three times, and sometimes depending on the tactics of that player you need to take into account the fighters they have as well.
Incomming Scan and a couple of amps might be helpful! Maybe people should stop being selfish and build more amps instead of millions of finance centres. And of course go for scans as soon as possible.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 15:20   #60
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by CBA View Post
Actually i think you are all quite incorrect, the main problem this round was the simple fact Xan could not hit Xan... if Xan could hit Xan it would of been a different ball game.
Xan have never really been able to target other xands, their basic race setup makes it horrible to balance. Am I the only one who remembers r15 tzen vs vsh?

Xans either trade fire at equal init, or have one ship shooting first and killing at 150% efficiency (which is nuts). I went for the first option, which is the same thing we had for the last 2 rounds stats.

I think a few minor changes to favour cath/ter would justifiably make them more attractive and justifiably reduce xand power. I'd like to spend time playing around with etd just to make them more interesting. This is assuming that these stats ever get used again, which seems unlikely, but IMO it's worth keeping a stockpile of old statsets for the future.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 16:13   #61
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
I think a few minor changes to favour cath/ter would justifiably make them more attractive and justifiably reduce xand power. I'd like to spend time playing around with etd just to make them more interesting. This is assuming that these stats ever get used again, which seems unlikely, but IMO it's worth keeping a stockpile of old statsets for the future.
No No No.

No matter how much you 'tweak' Xan within reason (i.e. not making it completely terrible), it will ALWAYS be the preferred choice for alliances, due to its natural advantages.

A. It kills
B. It's cloaked

Stop living in a bubble :/
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 16:54   #62
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Xan have never really been able to target other xands, their basic race setup makes it horrible to balance. Am I the only one who remembers r15 tzen vs vsh?
Or round 21 mares firing before bombers. It was a nightmare (get it?)
I certainly prefer xan hitting xan with equal initiative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It is worth noting that 90% of the incomings on my (Xan) planet were Co or Cr/Bs fleets.

All four of them?
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 17:07   #63
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Xan have never really been able to target other xands, their basic race setup makes it horrible to balance. Am I the only one who remembers r15 tzen vs vsh?
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Unread 30 Sep 2008, 06:56   #64
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by H1TMANish View Post
All four of them?
*hug*
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Unread 2 Oct 2008, 01:41   #65
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
I'd like to spend time playing around with etd just to make them more interesting.
Subvert instead of EMP.
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Unread 2 Oct 2008, 09:36   #66
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Game^ View Post
No No No.

No matter how much you 'tweak' Xan within reason (i.e. not making it completely terrible), it will ALWAYS be the preferred choice for alliances, due to its natural advantages.
In various rounds, all races have been adopted by 'top' alliances. Admittedly, a lot of this evidence is from before cloak was reintroduced, but it shows that just being good at killing isn't enough to mean it is 'ALWAYS' the preferred choice for alliances.



And MrLobster: Sub wasn't an option last round. For the future, limited subvert could be interesting but it's still broken with red defence and green attack. How can we overcome this, and should it be overcome?
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Unread 2 Oct 2008, 10:48   #67
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Admittedly, a lot of this evidence is from before cloak was reintroduced
And is thus useless!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
but it shows that just being good at killing isn't enough to mean it is 'ALWAYS' the preferred choice for alliances.
No, it doesn't. What it shows is that being good at cloaking and killing makes it the preferred choice for alliances.
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Unread 2 Oct 2008, 13:45   #68
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
In various rounds, all races have been adopted by 'top' alliances. Admittedly, a lot of this evidence is from before cloak was reintroduced, but it shows that just being good at killing isn't enough to mean it is 'ALWAYS' the preferred choice for alliances.
You surely can't mean this...

Killing > EMPing ALWAYS from an alliance point of view. From a selfish players point of view maybe not... (unless of course the killing stats are made terribly under powered, and I mean TERRIBLY)
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Unread 2 Oct 2008, 20:33   #69
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Re: r29 shipstats

um.. i play terran. i like the fi attack fleet, but what happened to our bad ass battleships and ability to def, at LEAST in gal? maybe that could be fixed a little? i mean, why do xans have cr all of the sudden? isnt that usually a terran thing? just wonderin.
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 03:25   #70
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Game^ View Post
No No No.

No matter how much you 'tweak' Xan within reason (i.e. not making it completely terrible), it will ALWAYS be the preferred choice for alliances, due to its natural advantages.

A. It kills
B. It's cloaked

Stop living in a bubble :/
true as that may be, historically the statistics are based upon unique abilities, and more importantly, are effective versus one, and vulnerable versus another. Even though this is common knownledge among longtime PA players, i felt that last couple of rounds these characteristics were shifting, breaking down a very fragile, delicate balance. This is how i look at it, and how i think you can get the best balance without taking away race-specific features

Xan : Fastest Killers and effective, but in exchange die fast AND Have the worst EMP resistance of all. Means its effective vs Ter and Zik but vulnerable to Cath and Etd. This makes a lot of sense, they are the earliest killers so only real way of countering is to either EMP which has earliest init or overpower them (but ofc you cannot describe a race's strength if you are to take overpowering into consideration)

Cath (and Etd, to a slightly lesser extend) as commonly known, have earliest initiative EMP ships, but they dont kill but stun. To make up for this big disadvantage EMP is a far more effective way to silence a ship during combat. On average it means it can stun around 1,5x its own value. The true effect of EMP is measured by their targets' Emp resistance (E/R) though. Here you find the difference in strenght versus other races: Since Xan have lowest E/R, they are the best targets for the EMP races. vs Ziks and terran it is much less effective, and too easy to outflak, to take that risk.
They both have medium armour and medium firepower on their killships.
A quick overview of the differences of Cath and Etd: Cath has better initiative on the EMP ships and a better Emp Resistance overall, Etd has the advantage of cloacked killships (medium armoured, low on firepower) with init just between ter and xan. The Cath killships (higher armour, similar firepower as etd's) are mainly there so they are not massively zero-loss-attacked and as a psychological effect, since they are the latest conventional ships to fire and designed primarily as defence, relying on the strength of the EMP to bring some fear. These differences mean both races can do fairly okay versus eachtother.

So, Terrans are easy to hit by xans, but they can make up this loss against caths (and etds again to lesser extend). To sum it: they fire at a late initiative and with slightly under average firepower. Their advantage is they carry big armor (not big class per se) and have the best Emp Resistance. This makes them ideal versus Cath and Etd, reasons explained there.

Zikonian then, they steal, which makes them unique and in theory the best race, but it is difficult to start off well. Since they fire as last, they have the best firepower in the universe, and their armour as well as their E/R comes in second, right behind the terrans. Their armada holds a few 'conventional' ships, but with stats similar to that of a xan ship. Their real effectivity lies in defending , when they can take advantage of the double salvage. 'Plain' Ziks are primarily effective versus EMP races, and bad vs Terran and Xan. When they start stealing ships they can become a deadly combo versus anyone though


You may have noticed it, but i left out the strengts of a race vs its own kind. For me attacking ur own race should never be easy or beneficial: it simply goes against the idea of a 'race'! Plus, with current number of 5 races, every race is strong vs 2, weak vs the other 2, and defensively superior to attacks by its own.


brings me back to the quote, if the stats are formed even loosely based on this, i would mean its just as important for an alliance to get an EMP race as to get a Xan. Only real big thing necessary in the current stats, is lowering the E/R of Xans. Just compare cost efficiency of stunned ships and you see almost no difference between the xan ships and the rest of the races, while there should be! When EMP and E/R gets as close to race schematic as guns/armour already is (so pls dont change those too drastically!), you get balance returned, and at same time strengthen the races characteristics.
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 08:50   #71
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Onim View Post
true as that may be, historically the statistics are based upon unique abilities, and more importantly, are effective versus one, and vulnerable versus another. Even though this is common knownledge among longtime PA players, i felt that last couple of rounds these characteristics were shifting, breaking down a very fragile, delicate balance. This is how i look at it, and how i think you can get the best balance without taking away race-specific features

Xan : Fastest Killers and effective, but in exchange die fast AND Have the worst EMP resistance of all. Means its effective vs Ter and Zik but vulnerable to Cath and Etd. This makes a lot of sense, they are the earliest killers so only real way of countering is to either EMP which has earliest init or overpower them (but ofc you cannot describe a race's strength if you are to take overpowering into consideration)

Cath (and Etd, to a slightly lesser extend) as commonly known, have earliest initiative EMP ships, but they dont kill but stun. To make up for this big disadvantage EMP is a far more effective way to silence a ship during combat. On average it means it can stun around 1,5x its own value. The true effect of EMP is measured by their targets' Emp resistance (E/R) though. Here you find the difference in strenght versus other races: Since Xan have lowest E/R, they are the best targets for the EMP races. vs Ziks and terran it is much less effective, and too easy to outflak, to take that risk.
They both have medium armour and medium firepower on their killships.
A quick overview of the differences of Cath and Etd: Cath has better initiative on the EMP ships and a better Emp Resistance overall, Etd has the advantage of cloacked killships (medium armoured, low on firepower) with init just between ter and xan. The Cath killships (higher armour, similar firepower as etd's) are mainly there so they are not massively zero-loss-attacked and as a psychological effect, since they are the latest conventional ships to fire and designed primarily as defence, relying on the strength of the EMP to bring some fear. These differences mean both races can do fairly okay versus eachtother.

So, Terrans are easy to hit by xans, but they can make up this loss against caths (and etds again to lesser extend). To sum it: they fire at a late initiative and with slightly under average firepower. Their advantage is they carry big armor (not big class per se) and have the best Emp Resistance. This makes them ideal versus Cath and Etd, reasons explained there.

Zikonian then, they steal, which makes them unique and in theory the best race, but it is difficult to start off well. Since they fire as last, they have the best firepower in the universe, and their armour as well as their E/R comes in second, right behind the terrans. Their armada holds a few 'conventional' ships, but with stats similar to that of a xan ship. Their real effectivity lies in defending , when they can take advantage of the double salvage. 'Plain' Ziks are primarily effective versus EMP races, and bad vs Terran and Xan. When they start stealing ships they can become a deadly combo versus anyone though


You may have noticed it, but i left out the strengts of a race vs its own kind. For me attacking ur own race should never be easy or beneficial: it simply goes against the idea of a 'race'! Plus, with current number of 5 races, every race is strong vs 2, weak vs the other 2, and defensively superior to attacks by its own.


brings me back to the quote, if the stats are formed even loosely based on this, i would mean its just as important for an alliance to get an EMP race as to get a Xan. Only real big thing necessary in the current stats, is lowering the E/R of Xans. Just compare cost efficiency of stunned ships and you see almost no difference between the xan ships and the rest of the races, while there should be! When EMP and E/R gets as close to race schematic as guns/armour already is (so pls dont change those too drastically!), you get balance returned, and at same time strengthen the races characteristics.
I agree with what onim wrote
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 09:40   #72
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Onim View Post
brings me back to the quote, if the stats are formed even loosely based on this, i would mean its just as important for an alliance to get an EMP race as to get a Xan. Only real big thing necessary in the current stats, is lowering the E/R of Xans. Just compare cost efficiency of stunned ships and you see almost no difference between the xan ships and the rest of the races, while there should be! When EMP and E/R gets as close to race schematic as guns/armour already is (so pls dont change those too drastically!), you get balance returned, and at same time strengthen the races characteristics.
If the alliances are roid racing then yes, maybe there would be a need for EMP ships. However compare what you are saying to a war situation. Effectively Xan's can only get roided by ships that don't actually kill them, so the alliance of xans may lose roids but never lose value...

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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 11:10   #73
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Re: r29 shipstats

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um.. i play terran. i like the fi attack fleet, but what happened to our bad ass battleships and ability to def, at LEAST in gal? maybe that could be fixed a little? i mean, why do xans have cr all of the sudden? isnt that usually a terran thing? just wonderin.
I was bored with terrans having BS and xands having FI/CO for the past 15 or so rounds.

Mz/Game: I made myself sound thick. What I was trying to get at is that every race can be very useful to an alliance if the stats are right - we've seen it in different rounds (eg Asc went zik and were able to dominate). And I'm not convinced that the current unbalance in sandmans stats are entirely due to asc going xand since the difference is greater than any I remember seeing (even from rounds where races were horribly overpowered).

I think that xands should have a cut in power amongst a few other changes that would make these stats more interesting for alliances (rather than just 'all go xand!')

On the plus side, every race has a t10 planet atm which is a better indicator than r21 & 23-26, suggesting that every race can do well.
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 12:18   #74
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Re: r29 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Mz/Game: I made myself sound thick. What I was trying to get at is that every race can be very useful to an alliance if the stats are right - we've seen it in different rounds (eg Asc went zik and were able to dominate). And I'm not convinced that the current unbalance in sandmans stats are entirely due to asc going xand since the difference is greater than any I remember seeing (even from rounds where races were horribly overpowered).
There is no round that you can realistically compare to this one. Stop trying.

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
On the plus side, every race has a t10 planet atm which is a better indicator than r21 & 23-26, suggesting that every race can do well.
Ok then, fine, lets look at the numbers, since you appear so desperate to do something with them.

Here's the top10:
5 Xans -> all Ascendancy
1 Ter -> 1 Ascendancy
2 Caths -> 1 Ascendancy
1 Zik -> 1 Ascendancy
1 Etd -> 1 Ascendancy
10 Total -> 9 Ascendancy

And the top20:
12 Xans -> 11 Ascendancy
1 Ter -> 1 Ascendancy
2 Caths -> 1 Ascendancy
3 Zik -> 3 Ascendancy
2 Etd -> 2 Ascendancy
20 Total -> 18 Ascendancy

And hell!, even the top50:
28 Xans -> 23 Ascendancy
4 Ter -> 2 Ascendancy
4 Caths -> 1 Ascendancy
10 Zik -> 8 Ascendancy
4 Etd -> 2 Ascendancy
50 Total -> 36 Ascendancy

And while we're at it, I'll give you the race ratio in Ascendancy:
Etd 8.3%
Ter 4.2%
Zik 22.2%
Xan 61.1%
Cat 4.2%

Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't tell me "Xan are overpowered". This tells me "Ascendancy completely raped everyone". And wait! Here it comes! We did!
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 16:59   #75
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Re: r29 shipstats

u cant draw any conclusion out of this overview than the one you already mentioned. To look at race's power you would have to rely on ur own experience gathered throuhgout the round. I already mentioned a few things but since its kind of hidden in that long post, lemme recap:

xan was strong vs emp (their CR) and ziks, though in my opinion it should be strong vs ter/zik and less strong vs emp. Perhaps assigning 1 certain ship in the stats of one of the other 3 races that fires at init 4 t2 CR (low armour/damage) could prove an outcome to this, or nerfing down the CR E/R. Their FR does not need much change

etd was particularly strong vs etd, since the defender's t1 is FI. In the first blueprints of the stats the defender targeted CO-FI, something i think is worth trying. This also means the lancers e/r can be lowered again in favor of giving it a little boost in armour/damage to keep ters from overpowering them (or change defender to having 5 guns) The cr/bs was okay, good in both defensive role as attacking, but not too overpowered.

cath imo had the best balanced stats, though perhaps their FR killships could use a slight boost in armour or damage, but i have to admit i've not seen many cath action this round, so pls comment on them if you have

ziks is difficult. I could not really point out a solution for them, their bs seemed good, the mara was very effective, and ziks will always need to team in order to get roids in the beginning. Their FR could use a better support ship than the pillager though.

finally the Ters. I'd say their FI is good, and changing defender to co-fi makes it even stronger. Still lacks real good anti Fi-co, so perhaps adding a co support ship at the cost of the Kraken could be considered? Theres already a very low amount of Corvettes compared to other classes, but its a somewhat wild suggestion. Their DE i think is okay as it is, but im not too known with the ters stats either so..

to perfectly predict what a certain suggestion could alter in the balance is not something im very good at, it could very well be that you have to adjust every ship to get it right, so feel free to comment
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Unread 4 Oct 2008, 11:56   #76
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Re: r29 shipstats

there is quite a lot of talk of tweaking things... if things are just tweaked then there will be another heavily xan round because asc has powerfully reinforced xans natural advantages. However much things are tweaked I couldnt stand DCing another xan round, I want a round of perfect knowledge... or at least better knowlege, its all very well asking ppl to build amps, but most alliances dont have all their members on in time to use em to help their DC, they only have the first tick really.
A major problem I felt with xan cr was that to fight em u really want rogues or tullas, the eta 8 ships were ineffective against them apart from shads which as primary attack ships were not available, even they take terrible losses against wraiths.
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Unread 4 Oct 2008, 13:51   #77
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Re: r29 shipstats

Each race should have trouble hitting 2 of the other races, while having an easier time with the other 2. While hitting its own race should be on equal footing.

EDIT: I also think there should be no POD smaller than a Frigate.
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Unread 4 Oct 2008, 13:58   #78
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't tell me "Xan are overpowered". This tells me "Ascendancy completely raped everyone". And wait! Here it comes! We did!
you really didn't, the rest of the universe volunteered to be your SM slaves.
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Unread 4 Oct 2008, 14:13   #79
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Re: r29 shipstats

Xans were strong this round, but hardly superfantastic. However I would be inclined to making them a bit weaker tbh. Easiest way is probably to change the targetting\classes of their FI so theyre more vulnerable to DE.
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Unread 4 Oct 2008, 19:02   #80
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Re: r29 shipstats

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you really didn't, the rest of the universe volunteered to be your SM slaves.
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Unread 5 Oct 2008, 22:43   #81
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Re: r29 shipstats

Well seeing I went value Cath I may as well comment on that. I found Cath to be very usable this round and was suprised to see that very few active people played that race. In terms of alliance defence it was a bit of a nightmare as I was trying to keep up with xans who could roid much faster than me and I often had to make the decision to two fleet or keep my taras home for def (and often the accompanying roach to stop any fakes)

there are so many factors that can affect the success of particular races and that is not just down to dominant allies, You could even go as far as to look at the success rate of a race due to the number of that race being in fence gals, it is also down to politics, def leechers etc so its pointless trying to gauge the balance of stats in most ways, its better to accept the players finished that way using whatever race and thats pretty much all you can do with that information.

Imo i found most of the races relatively balanced including the roiding class changes that scared everyone. I'd like to see the terran FI have a bit of a boost as spiders seemed to emp them far too easy for their expense and perhaps the banshee could have had their emp resistence bumped a little as i was freezing them a little two easily. The main problem fleets for me were cath DE (until I got some mantis), terran DE, zik and etd BS, Cath CR and to some extent zik FR

To summarise I guess i found the stats scary at first, then plumped for cath as I couldn't decide what race to go, but looking back on the round i felt the stats were relatively balanced with maybe one or two tweaks required.
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Unread 6 Oct 2008, 18:01   #82
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Nitz View Post
there are so many factors that can affect the success of particular races and that is not just down to dominant allies, You could even go as far as to look at the success rate of a race due to the number of that race being in fence gals, it is also down to politics, def leechers etc so its pointless trying to gauge the balance of stats in most ways, its better to accept the players finished that way using whatever race and thats pretty much all you can do with that information.
That is one of the most retarded conclusions I've ever read in my life and should probably disqualify you from ever getting to talk about stats ever again.
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Unread 7 Oct 2008, 00:27   #83
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Each race should have trouble hitting 2 of the other races, while having an easier time with the other 2. While hitting its own race should be on equal footing.

I'm really opposed to that way of thinking. Each race should be able to target any other race with one of their fleet.
In a shrinking universe you can't right away reduce by half someone's targets considering ally, politics, score (covopers, scanners, half active, crashers...) reduce the choices even further.
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Unread 7 Oct 2008, 08:29   #84
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Re: r29 shipstats

Now cumon JBG even you should admit your last response was little harsh thought I probably didnt explain myself as well as I should have (and besides I was kinda agreeing with Game). I was speaking from a personal view and trying to explain how it affected my planet and my final position which I felt determined my position almost as a much as the stats. Ill try to explain it better by breaking down what factors I felt affected my personal planet.

Early round
- initially a relatively fence position due to politics and ally allies in gal
- strong gal, good for extra defense when ally was struggling
- I was active \o/
- no completely dominant allies at this stage, only gal raiding
- plenty of hittable targets
- active night cover in gal (major luv for bread|)
- fast roiding race with imo relatively strong stats for this stage (as with most rounds with Cath)
- ally was active for def at this point
- ally politically well based for individual planet scores as they had tried to protect their top100 and gals with ally predominance
- plenty of preferred xan targets that which were the natural targets for cath

Late round
- gal was predominantly asc so no in gal def when I had incs from them
- gal went inactive
- asc had become dominant at this point so the few targets I could hit were asc which were generally deffed very well ad also increased heavy incs from them and obv the incs from asc also slowed my progress
- ally channel was quite quiet at this point and def fleets were not as common as they were previous
- natural slow down of cath roiding (as with most rounds)
- could not risk attacking (for about 7-10 days) as I knew asc were intending to FC me out of the top spots and so once roided I was left to sit on what I had left
- lack of finance centres meant my roid count did not compete any more with those who had chsoen to go with guards
- xan could start to roid faster than cath at this point with their stronger use of fakes
- ally no longer politically based to protect those that they had earlier in the round.


Im sure there are more but I wanted to quickly write something before work. What i'm trying to say is we can look at the final rankings in a general view and argue continuously about the stats but from my personal perspective (note the continuous disclaimer here) I felt my round was more influenced by other factors than just my stats (by the way i consider my self a top 50 player not a top 10 player) If my gal hadnt been so fence that could have affected my round just as much as if I went xan imo (yet another disclaimer, 3rd post and im horribly defensive already)

Look at classical for example he went Cath as well and wasn't doing too great then he joined our gal and it all perked up for him, add that to a later change to asc and he was doing great) His above list may be completely different to mine but also determine his final position to an extent.

I just prefer to look at the fact that there are a lot of factors that effect my personal standing beyond the stats and im sure others have their own so called story therefore I just prefer to look at it differently to others. I'm no stats expect but i felt you discredit peoples efforts if you dont take them into account beyond the stats. Obviously some people may finish lower than their effort put it and this could be down to stats, ally political situation and other factors but there is always another side
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Unread 11 Oct 2008, 09:00   #85
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Re: r29 shipstats

We gonna have the same problem with rushed stats this round as last then?
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Unread 11 Oct 2008, 10:05   #86
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Re: r29 shipstats

No, Appoco has been working on a set of stats. The last news I heard is that he and JBG were going to look over it.
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Unread 11 Oct 2008, 11:36   #87
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Re: r29 shipstats

JBG and I have been collaborating over a set of stats, which will be beta tested over the remaining 20 days before tick start.
They're currently available at http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats
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Unread 11 Oct 2008, 14:59   #88
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Re: r29 shipstats

If you want to understand the relative strength of the races look at how much incoming particular races would receive when their alliance/galaxy received incoming. Look at how capable of capping roids back they were. Look at how much they added to their alliance. Personal experiences are largely irrelevant. There'll always be outliers. My point was that your claim that 'trying to gauge the benefits of stats is largely pointless' was completely missing the point. Just because there are a multitude of factors involved at different levels doesn't mean we can't analyse the end results and draw some basic conclusions.
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Unread 11 Oct 2008, 17:30   #89
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Re: r29 shipstats

At first glance those stats looked cool, some good opportunities for fakes. Had hoped they would be bad so I wouldnt be tempted to play
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Unread 12 Oct 2008, 03:15   #90
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Re: r29 shipstats

At first glance Ziks look wide open to DE fleets from Ter and fellow Ziks.
Their best option seems to steal early some Cath CO. They have other options, but Xan FR will be hard to steal, and the others options involve heavy ships that will come up later in game. Tough begining of round for them defensively, especially since their best attack option early is to attack other ziks (possibly small Cath and Etd too).
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Unread 12 Oct 2008, 08:56   #91
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Re: r29 shipstats

Thats how it always is for ziks though, good thing corsairs tend to be good flack for ally def There is a reason 40% of my value often is in corsairs.

Terran BS looks ****in awesome for xp for those who are into such things.
Overall all races seems to have a weakness versus something(even xans \o\) which is good!
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Unread 12 Oct 2008, 14:29   #92
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Re: r29 shipstats

I generally like the stats, Ter BS a tad over-powered perhap but i think its a decent fondation for a good round



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Unread 12 Oct 2008, 14:36   #93
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Re: r29 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
At first glance Ziks look wide open to DE fleets from Ter and fellow Ziks.
Their best option seems to steal early some Cath CO. They have other options, but Xan FR will be hard to steal, and the others options involve heavy ships that will come up later in game. Tough begining of round for them defensively, especially since their best attack option early is to attack other ziks (possibly small Cath and Etd too).
can you PLZ tell me how ziks can attack other ziks with DE? PLZ. I am waiting.

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Unread 12 Oct 2008, 19:31   #94
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Re: r29 shipstats

And if it stays like this (no reason why it shouldn't) most Terrans will go for BS next round, it's quite strong at the moment.
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Unread 13 Oct 2008, 00:02   #95
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Re: r29 shipstats

Edit: error, please delete.
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Unread 13 Oct 2008, 00:06   #96
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Re: r29 shipstats

ah yes, but then clippers come into play and it becomes 0 loss def....although ofcourse they don't stop your pods, but i doubt you want to lose your cutters...
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Unread 13 Oct 2008, 08:33   #97
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Re: r29 shipstats

Right now I think that ziks look the strongest IMO. Both their fleet compositions are tough to attack against, even without steals. I'd pick them if I was playing.

There's some interesting stuff in here though.
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Unread 13 Oct 2008, 15:09   #98
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Re: r29 shipstats

Etd recluse/thief combo is rather nasty against Xans :/
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Unread 13 Oct 2008, 15:38   #99
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Re: r29 shipstats

Shame etd dont have any kill\steal anti cr\bs tho
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Unread 13 Oct 2008, 15:58   #100
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Re: r29 shipstats

Yeah, kinda odd that they don't.
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