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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 14:44   #51
Gate
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Last round's set can still be used. People said they were bored, so I gave an option; I didn't stop anyone having a go. I'm quite fond of these, once they're polished up a bit more.

Some are claiming the stats are shit. Tell me which race(s) are overpowered, which are nerfed, and why? If you can't do this then the argument is about the 'style' rather than balance. This set doesn't conflict with PA's descriptions of the races, just with what people have come to expect.

No one complained about how the manual says 'The Xandathrii are an advanced insect race', then gives them poor research for example.

'The Xandathrii have lots of small, cheap ships which are equipped with cloaking technology which operates whilst they are in transit and as such certain scans do not work against them. They fire quickly with high damage, but to compensate for this their armour is the worst of all races.'

Here's a comparison a terran who goes for a FI attack and a xand who goes for a CR attack - the xand has more ships. When the xand goes for FI/FR and the terran for DE/CR the xand outnumbers the terran over 3:1; link. Xands have lots of small, cheap ships, they have cloak, they fire quickly with high damage and have poor armour.

EDIT: Also, JBG made some changes and said I could blame him for all my failings.
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Last edited by Gate; 10 Aug 2008 at 15:15.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 15:15   #52
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Have you actually read what this argument is about? Have targetting, efficiencies or anything even remotely complicated been mentioned once?
That doesn't make my point any less valid. People failing to understand the things you've just mentioned is one of the main reasons they've not been included or rather 'featured' in the discussion thus far.

So yeah, that doesn't make the bike shed metaphor any more relevent.

I've had a look at the stats, and there are a few things I don't like, but it's more to do with the fact that they're changing the nature of combat in the game than any numerical imbalances that may or may not be present.

I preferred Xan with a fi or co roiding fleet. Having 3 fi classes with no eta 8 attack fleets is pointless. Xan's will become the defwhores of the universe, and most of the time the def fleets will be fake. I can guarantee almost every attack fleet will have at least one 0-fleet xan defending against it this round. What's the point? There'll be no way of knowing if a def fleet is legit or not, and I don't like the idea of not being able to successfull calculate my chances of a clean land. People will be landing "blind" left, right and center and the amount of crashes/unneccessary recalls will increase sevenfold.

Anti-CO is entirely pointless because only 10% (on average) of players go ETD. And then you've got to assume that about 80%+ of those players will switch to BS because there's so much anti-CO lying around doing fk all you'll never get to land a co attack fleet.

That said, I particularly like the ETD stats this round. If we could give Cathaar or Xandathrii a co roiding fleet too, then the universe would be right again. **** it, give a co fleet to the terrans for a change. And sort Xan.

Or you telling me that the stats take longer than a week to change? I find that hard to believe, given that these ones were clearly thrown together in 5 minutes.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 15:25   #53
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Quote:
That doesn't make my point any less valid. People failing to understand the things you've just mentioned is one of the main reasons they've not been included or rather 'featured' in the discussion thus far.
The argument's not about that though. This is like an argument about a nuclear power plant, except it's about its location (not on those green fields, not near my town, not in the centre of that city, it's far too close to this historical monument) and so on.

Quote:
There'll be no way of knowing if a def fleet is legit or not, and I don't like the idea of not being able to successfull calculate my chances of a clean land. People will be landing "blind" left, right and center and the amount of crashes/unneccessary recalls will increase sevenfold.
There are plenty of ways of figuring these things out. In fact it's one of the few areas in the game where you can't just play like a ****ing robot so I'm glad it's there.

FYI 23% of the universe is currently etd.

I wasn't really telling you anything about how long stats take to change so I'm not sure where you've gotten that from.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 15:35   #54
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith- View Post
*snip*Point about xand defwhores
I'm not convinced by this. Last round almost every xand built bomber for defence, and it flew around en masse against 4 attack fleets.

This set has FI which will be built in varying ratios acting against 6 attack fleets, 2 of which are only visible for 1 tick. Phantoms will not be built en masse by FR-whores and so the FI target 5 fleets.

It's a similar effect to last round, and last round is largely considered to be well balanced.

Quote:
Anti-CO is entirely pointless because only 10% (on average) of players go ETD. And then you've got to assume that about 80%+ of those players will switch to BS because there's so much anti-CO lying around doing fk all you'll never get to land a co attack fleet.
The non-attack-ship anti CO consists of thief, xand FI, the beetle & arguably the lancer. Last round it was the cutlass, phoenix and arguably the lancer.

The beetle may not make it into the final set and the cutlass is getting deleted. People who build frigs have less incentive to build phantom & thief. It's a similar setup to last round, when cath FI/CO fleets were very hard to stop with ally def.

Also, the corsair/thief may revert to different classes.

Quote:
Or you telling me that the stats take longer than a week to change? I find that hard to believe, given that these ones were clearly thrown together in 5 minutes.
The stats can be changed near instantly by someone with access (not me, right now \o/). But balancing is always the problem.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 16:26   #55
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

In my opinion people who are complaining the hardest about this new set of stats, have other reasons than the ones they argue with to support their complaint. Looking at the arguments you can easily read between the lines why they are upset..their 'own' race, the ones they feel most connected to, are being changed and change is always rejected at first (ppl wanting to keep things they way they are, safe and easy)
The stats discussion (first in the r27 stats thread, later in the r28 stats one) has been going on since end of the round, and if you wanted to give a well argued remark you could have said something there.
Since 'my' race is and has always been Etd (and yes, i was one of the rare players who studied the whole manual and shipstats pages and even the race's short origin stories when i first came to PA in round 22, and chose Etd based on their mix of shiptypes of all other races) i looked at this new set of stats solely out of the etd's position. So i looked at their attackfleets and the other race's anti-ships and to the etd's defensive capabilities versus all other attackfleets and out of that asked for a change where i thought there was a change needed. Pretty selfish, but its something we all tend to do.
My point is, i think people who are complaining now, are simply feeling bad they missed their chance (or thought this new set wasnt going to be used anyway and simply didnt bother) and try to have PA staff undo these statchanges only to protect their old and safe plan and way of playing.

I can still remember the etd loosing their stealship in r24, i complained about that (using the very same argument about their race's history and storyline) but i was the only one asking for it in the entire thread. Maybe because etd has never been a very popular race, and because it was only introduced late, it didnt have many loyal followers yet (and still hasnt to this day) who stood up for them either..
On the other hand, every little change the xan fleet underwent, was discussed over and over untill all their followers were satisfied. Xan has always had a big group of players , and for a reason: all cloacked is just awesome and is always overlooked in the stats discussions threads at every beginning of a new round. This discussion is no other , its mainly people complaining about xan (only saw a couple remarks about cath or ter, and it has almost always been in connection with the xan's fleet too)

I can only talk about r22 till now, but in the first few rounds i played the changes of stats werent any different from these changes (eg multitargetting introduced, cath FR-CR to CO-CR, etd CO-BS to Co-CR and later to FR-CR, xan FI-FR to CO-DE to name only a few)

the only change is, that the r26 stats were pretty nicely balanced, and nobody wanted to take up the job to make a new set, so the minor changes were easily accepted. I am delighted to see the stats have changed a bit more again, because this is particularly what keeps the game so interesting!

Just go with it, and if you want to have your opinion taken into discussion start reading the stats discussion threads earlier and participate in that. And if you havent/don't want to then just accept the changes and try the game, and we'll see in the end if it were good stats..
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 16:31   #56
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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Originally Posted by Onim View Post
Stop being selfish and arguing for the sake of it over the internet
Yeah, good luck with that
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 16:37   #57
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I love the new stats

Its a good leap away from the same old same old, should make for a very interesting round at the very least. I feel "my race" is still "my race" except with a twist which is fun because races are pretty static in general in terms of attack fleets - and now I'm actually using "my race" and their specific characteristics in a very different way which will require a whole new approach in some cases.

This is a whole overhaul and I'm looking very much forward to this round. Thx Gate
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 18:04   #58
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Also, I thought people might want to know some of the themes I tried to use, and this might help you see why I think the stats work with the race themes.

TERRANS:
- ships larger than other races of the same class. ('cept zik)
- high armour, medium damage, late init (except for a handful of fast firers)
- names based on mythological creatures
- big capital ships available

CATHAAR:
- highly advanced killships with good arm/dmg but late init. Low init, high efficiency EMP with reasonable A/C (high tech shields)
- EMP attack fleets, killer defence (pacifist when roiding, but willing to hurt to defend their citizens)
- EMP ships named after spiders (getting stuck in a web etc), killers after insects

XANDATHRII:
- ships cheaper than others of the same type. Lots of FI/CO available.
- cloak, low init, high damage, low armour
- ships named after ghostly type stuff

ZIKONIAN:
- large, expensive ships
- onus on steal, with a couple of subsidiary high tech, quick killers
- names themed around nouns applied to people who do piratey type stuff

EITRAIDES:
- based around old science - mix of cloak/EMP (but would have added steal/normal if I saw a good opportunity)
- cloaker names based on old xandathrii, with a theme of 'weapons'
- EMP names based on old cathaar with a theme of defensive stuff.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 18:17   #59
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I think a big thing here is, and it's the same way I felt when I saw these stats, was "wtf, what were they smoking, this is nothing like it should be"

Now of course this is all up to personal opinion somewhat, so things can be interpreted in different ways. However, what the original argument was about, that being that the basics were being ignored, is essentially the best, most non-race-specific argument.

I've always been cath or xan. Cath in my earlier rounds, and xan since like r14 or whatever. So I always look to xan first for what the stats are. "Light and fast, cloaked" is the general concept. What do I see? "light, slow, and cloaked" Naturally, I hate it. So I next look to my second choice...

Cathaar. "Advanced, EMP, well armored" What I get? "EMP, ok armored" where is the advanced? The "Norm" ships have been relegated to being useless. Might as well forget about defending against FI. And although fast isn't part of the description, I have to wonder how an advanced race has never developed a quicker mode of roiding.

So now I am in a state for sure. I decide to look at the other races to see the offerings. Zik doesn't look like it has much of a chance, good luck roiding anything that shoots at you. Agaian, instead of "Steal, offshoot from cathaar" we get "steal, and nothing more" could have easily gotten creative here and used EMP ships in combo with steal, or just go back to what other ziks seemed to like and give them decent kill ships too.

Etd, as many others said, a retarded 5th race, they are supposed to "gain inter-racial technologies which they use to their advantage." ok, apparently they didn't visit anywhere but cathaar planets. They *are* cathaar this round. This is sad. The least you could have done was to give them a mix in each roiding fleet. say CO fleet has 1 emp and 1 cloaked ship, and BS maybe has 1 emp and 1 steal ship, always with complimentary targetting. Than they truly would be using the tech to their advantage.

Finally I get to terran. This is almost always my last choice because they are slow, and I like fast roiding fleets. "Big, expensive, heavy armor" is what it should be, and what we get is "small, heavy armor, expensive" I am actually going to be terran this round because of the FI, but this is again a bad change from the race basics imo. I'm sure some terran players are none to happy. The least ya coulda done was give them a CR fleet.

All that being said, as you can see, I've found a race to play that suits my style, so no complaints there. I think these stats, as far as balance, etc, were thought out well enough, but changing the race basics wasn't a good idea. As many have said "you could have posted in the ship stats discussion thread" which, I guess is true, save for the fact that I hardly ever come to forums and didn't even know it existed. However, I am not expecting anything to be changed now, only giving my opinion on why this rankled so many, and why it wasn't a good idea imo.

Maybe next round I will visit the stats discussion thread and give my .02, but until this round I've never really thought it necessary as stats almost always were fine, even when slightly unbalanced giving one race or the other an advantage.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 18:51   #60
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

You'll notice I'm using last round's stats as a barometer. I think it's fair, because they were cool. Also, the current statsbuild is here and I think class/targets/inits are final. You might need beta access to see it though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
Cathaar. "Advanced, EMP, well armored" What I get? "EMP, ok armored" where is the advanced?
How do you suggest 'advanced' is fit in? EMP is low init and pretty damned efficient.

A/C wise cath are equal to or better than last round (or every other round I've seen). D/C wise, their killships are at some of the highest efficiencies they've ever been.

Quote:
The "Norm" ships have been relegated to being useless. Might as well forget about defending against FI.
The locust is in a similar position to last round's vsharrak in terms of efficiencies. I found the vsh to be pretty good. The only difference is that it's a zero loss frigate killer, pretty useful.

The mantis is last round's scorp; a zero loss DE killer. Pretty useful.

The scorpion is last round's black widow, this time it's faster, with useful flak, does more damage and actually gets to shoot at zik BS. I think it's better than last round's widow.

Quote:
And although fast isn't part of the description, I have to wonder how an advanced race has never developed a quicker mode of roiding.
Development doesn't necessarily mean small ship roiding. Cath's original pod was a cruiser for example.

Quote:
Agaian, instead of "Steal, offshoot from cathaar" we get "steal, and nothing more"
historically we've had both 'offshoot from cathaar' and 'mysterious race from the edges of space'. I generally ran with the second one. Steal and high tech is their defining characteristic... that's what I tried to give them.

Quote:
They *are* cathaar this round. This is sad. The least you could have done was to give them a mix in each roiding fleet. say CO fleet has 1 emp and 1 cloaked ship, and BS maybe has 1 emp and 1 steal ship, always with complimentary targetting. Than they truly would be using the tech to their advantage.
They're very similar to last round (albeit with better ally defence), and I did have a look at doing mixed attack fleets but it just didn't work out quickly enough. If you have a workable suggestion, please share it.

Besides which, etd is a bastard child race and EMP reliance is a broken dynamic anyway.

Quote:
The least ya coulda done was give them a CR fleet.
They've always had an eta9 pod. Tbh I was bored, and their original pod was a destroyer. So I ran with that.

Quote:
As many have said "you could have posted in the ship stats discussion thread"
This is slightly unfair since most people don't bother with the strat forum.

That said, I think balance & interesting-ness are the most important things, and that the current set doesn't break race themes. It's just different to what people expect!
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 20:48   #61
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
This is slightly unfair since most people don't bother with the strat forum.
In all fairness, if people refuse to post on the Strategy forum when they can actually influence the process, and instead decide to whine like babies (that doesn't go for all you nay-sayers, just a handful) on PD 5 days before round start, they can go **** themselves.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 22:54   #62
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse View Post


So I always look to xan first for what the stats are. "Light and fast, cloaked" is the general concept. What do I see? "light, slow, and cloaked" Naturally, I hate it. So I next look to my second choice...

.
Theyre still light(low armour), fast(low init) and cloaked. Fast doesnt mean they HAVE TO HAVE fi\co pods.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 22:57   #63
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Different interpretation of what "fast" indicates, I guess.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 23:00   #64
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Yeah obviously.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 00:26   #65
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

the stats are interesting though. its gonna be a strange round and it will definately be harder for new players to realise they will need to actively use support-ships to succeed in their roiding

just look at xan having 3! fighterclass ships with no fi-pods

a side-effect is that we will see a lot of crashing since it will always be a 0-fleet defending against your target.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 00:49   #66
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

The only complaint I have about the stats is the inbalance in ship types,
Fighter - 9
Corvette - 4
Frigate - 10
Destroyer - 8
Cruiser - 14
Battleship - 8

this represents a huge disadvatage to the two races who have Corvettes, and i have to ask what is the point of the Pillager a killship that only targets Corvettes, i really cant see anyboy bothering to build it unless they are constantly defending aganist edt co attacks in gal.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 08:26   #67
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Send it along with your Frigs on attack?
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:41   #68
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
The locust is in a similar position to last round's vsharrak in terms of efficiencies. I found the vsh to be pretty good. The only difference is that it's a zero loss frigate killer, pretty useful.
I agree that its useful as a 0 loss frig killer but as anti co its not too helpful as in an attack by co it will simply be frozen by the etd co with T1 target it, with the Vsharrak last round I think most people had a fr fleet that vipers had to freeze all of first (you excluded ofc ) so leaving the vsharraks unfrozen to cause some damage, with the cat this round its the other way round, leaving emp ships unfrozen and the kill ships frozen which is rather unhelpful.

I suspect that the imbalance of numbers within each ship-type is a better criticism than the complaint about normal race characteristics. However the real difference should be in the number of attack fleets in each which is a more usual distribution with 1 fi, 1 co, 2 fr, 2 de, 2 cr and 2 bs which is effectively the same as last round. The different number in each ship-type really makes a difference in the amount of alliance def available rather than anything else. That being said I tend to think there needs to be more alliance defence available rather than less, as I am of the view that the dynamic of the game makes defence too difficult... but that has little to do with these shipstats.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:44   #69
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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this represents a huge disadvatage to the two races who have Corvettes,
It's not such a huge problem with 3 ships having CO as target prio, and 8 having FI. A similar number of anti FI/CO ships to last round, when we had 2 CO attack fleets. This round it's quite similar with 1 FI/1 CO. I don't think this will be too-major an issue.

Quote:
and i have to ask what is the point of the Pillager a killship that only targets Corvettes, i really cant see anyboy bothering to build it unless they are constantly defending aganist edt co attacks in gal.
Originally the pillager was there to counter a xand CO which targetted frigates. Now that the revenant is a fighter, it's kind of useless.

Zik kinda need a ship of every class so that they can build support ships for whatever they steal. Right now I'm unsure what to do with teh pillager: along with the lancer it's one of the only ships I wnt to change.

Changing target to CO/FR at init6 is my current thought. IF a chunk of DE get stolen that makes it useable, but without stolen DE it'll probably get mostly ignored.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 13:16   #70
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

etd is way to good imo, the bs fleet is almost unstoppable exept with tullas. i really dislike that xan dont have fi co, and im not to fond of the cr fleet either. im not using sk's but its really ez to defend vs xan sk's as their only de ship is the sk.

i havent found a race id like to play yet, and im not sure ill bother playing if this is the stats.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 13:42   #71
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I would have some concerns about etd being too powerful myself. Quite often it's the case that a weaker race on the last set of stats will get vastly improved for the new set, and there is a general case of bias towards the race you played yourself previously. Between the natural advantages of potentially adding cloaked ships to your attack fleet and the overall faking potential, the combination of low inits for emp and high firepower on medium initiative, the armour which is, in general, as good as zik, the minimum eta attack fleet and so on they're looking really strong. Put it this way, the cath and etd emp ships are about the same efficiency. Which other ships would you want, cloaked killers firing init 6 and 8 or uncloaked killers in more heavily targetted classes firing init 9.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 16:57   #72
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

In the last set of tweaks, etd were weakened slightly- their EMP efficiency is a little lower than cath now.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 18:30   #73
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I don't think that quite balances things out man
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 22:45   #74
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Todays tip: Gate is going etd!
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 22:49   #75
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I'm not playing (yet)!

If I were signing up now, I'd probably go cath just to prove a point. Although I like terran's ability to concentrate in 3 ships and I'm also fond of FI/CO/BS zik.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 00:59   #76
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

meaning you need to improve the xans to make them playable ?
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 08:08   #77
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

My main concern atm is Xan.
I've always loved xan and I know alot of people here are saying "xan CR is good fleet".
I'm sorry but I don't see how a slow roiding fleet that can only roid terran (all other races have an anti cr ship at lower init, or same init for xan vs xan, than the xan cr ships) can be considered "good"?
You can only hit ter with them, but how is attacking them a decent option?
The fleet itself is slow, as we all know cr/bs has highest traveltime, every galaxy will be filled with anti-cr at lower inits, xan as a race has slow research meaning they take alot longer than other races to get to hulls3 + hypergate.

This leads to: xans having an even slower start than usual, xan cr attacks being easily stopped by ally & galdef, xan as a race has become impossible to play solo.

I'm sure you'll all come out saying: But you can fake with them!
My response to that is: do we really want an entire race being totally gimped and useless just because they have the cloaking feature?
Sure, you can send a couple of 1000 pods and hope they don't get deffed or shot down, but that's literally ALL you can do with them.

I love Xan, I really do. They've always been my race of choice but this round I won't play them.
Don't feel like stabbing out my eyes, chopping off my feet & hands and then pretending to attack something when everybody knows they don't even have to make the slightest bit of effort to stop me.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 09:29   #78
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

The main point of xan has always been the ability to fake something you can easily do this round as usual. You can hit ter\cat\etd and teaming cr with cats or cr\bs with ziks is about the two strongest attackcombos in the game so i really doubt xans will have a problem gaining roids.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 09:34   #79
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I agree with isildurx. Now you don't look at races for their solo ability, but for the quality of their team-up.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 09:40   #80
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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I agree with isildurx. Now you don't look at races for their solo ability, but for the quality of their team-up.
And this is exactly what has been wrong with stats for what, the last 10 rounds now?
Being forced to team-up and being totally unable to do anything on your own.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 09:46   #81
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Thats the way it is though, no decent player is gonna let himself get roided without a teamup(except for the first couple of days).
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 09:51   #82
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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Thats the way it is though, no decent player is gonna let himself get roided without a teamup(except for the first couple of days).
And do you really think the way it is is a good way?
Personaly I don't like it one bit.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 09:57   #83
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I didnt say it was a good thing, its just how it is and how its likely to be untill singletargetting is reinstated.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 09:58   #84
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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And do you really think the way it is is a good way?
Personaly I don't like it one bit.
I'm more in favour of this way. Previously you always had holes in your fleet that you'd have sickening difficulty actually stopping. It had reached the absurd stage towards the end of single-targetting where you'd be building ships not because they were good but because at least if you had them there'd probably be easier targets elsewhere. Obviously overall I don't think this is the way forwards but that's a different discussion.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 10:26   #85
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

As an aside, the most common complaint about xand has been that they're too strong.

Cath and terran have been accused both of being too strong and too weak. Etd too strong, zik too weak.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 10:46   #86
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

i quite like the stats

nice gate.

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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 11:22   #87
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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i quite like the stats

nice gate.

Agreed. I've been looking at them quite a bit and I think they look interesting. I can see the points from people claiming xans seems to have lost some of their advantages though. But some of you just seem to dislike them because they are very different. I would love to see some concrete suggestions instead of "this sucks"..

All in all I think you have done a good job Gate.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 11:32   #88
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I'm now starting to worry slightly and think there should be handful more changes (possibly orbweaver t3=CR, a slightly stronger spider and a few things JBG suggested), but I think I'm going to leave them as they are.

I think every race, played well, will be able to perform just fine.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 11:37   #89
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Ofcourse, but Cath is going to be abnormally hard to do that with heh
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 11:40   #90
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Ofcourse, but Cath is going to be abnormally hard to do that with heh
I think cath will be one of the best races this round. Looks very hard to stop. Ofc it is difficult being a small cath but when hasn't it been? A big cath will be awesome imo..
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:00   #91
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

And how are you going to defend your ally?
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:05   #92
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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And how are you going to defend your ally?
With scorpions? I can promise you there will be plenty of use for anti bs/cr out there, even though the init is horrible.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:08   #93
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

So your going to be using FR\DE then?
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:17   #94
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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So your going to be using FR\DE then?
The most logical fleetcomps (IMO) are CR attack with a swarm of frigates (anti FR/CR) or DE attack with tara and maybe scorp (anti CR/BS). In both cases, token mantis would be present to provide immunity against DE.

An FR/CR cath is pretty challenging to hit with CR/BS (if the orbweaver had CR as a third target it would be very challenging) but quite vulnerable to CO (requiring defender or ingal def).

A DE + anti BS cath is pretty challenging to hit with FI/CO but is more vulnerable to CR/BS. A similar dynamic to etd last round.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:19   #95
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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So your going to be using FR\DE then?
We may have different playing styles but I always have def ships beside attackfleets. Which in the case of cath would be fr yes.. The fact that it is fr is irrelevant seeing as we are talking anti bs/cr and the eta is high.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:22   #96
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

I just think the caths are in the same position as etds last round where they had an abundance of defships. If i was to go cath Id prolly build Spider + CR(focussing on tara) and just accepting a proportion of my taras would be out defending every night.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:24   #97
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

The scorpion is a gigantic steaming pile of crap

Frozen t1 by cath cr, frozen t1 by etd bs (and killed by etd cr for good measure), killed t1 by xan cr all before it even fires. It's probably better than tulas versus zik cr/bs but one imagines they'll just ask one of the others to come along. The tula on the other hand freezes the orbweaver, both etd bs ships and xan cr pretty effectively before they fire. I mean, it's no investor but it's pretty ****ing weak.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:28   #98
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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The scorpion is a gigantic steaming pile of crap

Frozen t1 by cath cr, frozen t1 by etd bs (and killed by etd cr for good measure), killed t1 by xan cr all before it even fires. It's probably better than tulas versus zik cr/bs but one imagines they'll just ask one of the others to come along. The tula on the other hand freezes the orbweaver, both etd bs ships and xan cr pretty effectively before they fire. I mean, it's no investor but it's pretty ****ing weak.
So make it EMP with low init. And it will be a rocking def ship..
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 12:49   #99
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

Its been known about for a long time so if it was to be changed it would have been changed by now
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 13:32   #100
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Re: Complaint about ship-stats

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So make it EMP with low init. And it will be a rocking def ship..
It won't necessarily be that much better.

CR based caths would already have anti CR/BS EMP invested in their tarantula and it would be overexpenditure to have the scorp as EMP too. DE based caths can already buy a CR/BS stunner in the tarantula and have that available for defence.

The extra eta would be nice, but I still think it's useful as is, given that the tarantula stuns paladin with wonderful efficiency. Orbweaver t3=cr would also have made it more useful.
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Last edited by Gate; 12 Aug 2008 at 13:48.
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