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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 16:54   #1
Gate
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r28 shipstats

OMAC have said they want to see business as usual continue for 1-2 rounds, which means we're probably sticking with the current race setup.

So it looks like we have 2 choices.

- keep the current set, possibly with modifications. My suggested tweaks are here

- have a different setup. I was playing around and got here. If people like this base, then it could be used (but someone will have to polish it up, I'm away when signups start), or someone else can contribute one.

What do y'all think?
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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 17:22   #2
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Re: r28 shipstats

Don't know what to think at the moment.

Was expecting DE pods for terrans.

But it looks nice at first sight.
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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 17:25   #3
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Re: r28 shipstats

I think it's rather late in the day to be trying to decide on a direction for the stats for next round.

With less than a week to go before sign-ups, stats development should be in the beta-testing stage - not still on the drawing board.

Probably better to keep any changes to a minimum - and start testing those changes immediately.
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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 17:36   #4
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Re: r28 shipstats

How useful is beta testing? It's a relatively poor prep-test for a real round.

Tbh I mostly ignored it in r17. It's usually pretty easy to predict what's good just from looking at the stats... from there it depends on the community's reaction. I don't think alternative stats should be ruled out, but tweaks to last round's set are probably more sensible.
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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 17:48   #5
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Re: r28 shipstats

Beta testing on stats are usually a joke. Everyone seems to go zik and its really not given a fair view.
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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 18:13   #6
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Benneh View Post
Beta testing on stats are usually a joke. Everyone seems to go zik and its really not given a fair view.
IMO a much better test would be to get a load of good players and find out what race they'd pick, and list races they wouldn't pick.

Ofc, they'd probably lie to try and get the upper hand, but if they didn't it should be a better way.
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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 21:11   #7
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Re: r28 shipstats

Im not sure I want to keep the current set of stats. Im tired of the tedious xan FR\DE versus corsairs repetitiveness.
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Unread 4 Aug 2008, 23:37   #8
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Re: r28 shipstats

at this point , with the latest changes you made, it looks pretty okay to me! Every race has roiding options at other races, so far i didnt see any races capable of easily roid their own kind on their own (apart from overwhelming ofc) and theres not really one race i'd rule out immediately..

You will definately see many 'same-eta' attacks, maybe even more than last round, ter's need their Gryphon Frigate with their DE roidfleet, Caths need their Scorpion, Xans could use their cloacking ability to add the CO revenant to its FR fleet (which could turn out to be interesting attacks if played right!) , Ziks goes without question, their early init DE and CR killships are simply a must to attack solo (esp the rogue added to their BS fleet) and Etd needs to have their CR in attackfleet and adding the lancer to its co fleet isnt a bad idea either.
For me this is a positive thing, it gives more interesting ways to play with ur race, and as such adding to the variety and fun

as for choice of race:
seeing i have always played with etd since my first round i came back to PA, r22, and still like my race, theres little chance i will undergo some sort of weird plastic surgery to change it
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 00:24   #9
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Re: r28 shipstats

You want to drop the armour/hitting power of corsair? lol are you insane
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 01:32   #10
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Re: r28 shipstats

About R26-27 stats, I still think the biggest mistake was to remove a steal ship from the Etd fleet. I don't remember a race being picked by such a low percentage of players as was Etd last round. That alone put a dent on the claim that R27 stats were the best ever.
If you're gonna tweak something in ETD that should include giving them back a steal ship (the Lancer ?), and preferably one that will allow to steal Zik stealers...
Not sure the Corsair needs to be toned down and not sure the Shadow need extra armour.
The rest of the 'tweaks' look ok to me and enough to mark a difference with last round.
Your own set of stats looked promising but with you away I'm not sure they will be properly tuned and I fear a last minute come back of R27 stats unchanged...
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 07:58   #11
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Re: r28 shipstats

The last few rounds, Etd has fairly consistently represented about 10% of the universe.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 08:16   #12
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Re: r28 shipstats

I totally agree with keeping the stats only having a few minor tweaks.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 09:13   #13
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Re: r28 shipstats

Make It So Each race roid ship is a different class than there own main class of fleet. So say instead of ter having bs/fr roiders they would have cr/fi roiders.

I know this is silly, but at least it might make for a more different round than just tweaking a few stats.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 09:53   #14
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Re: r28 shipstats

I like the new set proposed by Gate. Surely it would need to be tested, but maybe that could be a good base.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 10:09   #15
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The last few rounds, Etd has fairly consistently represented about 10% of the universe.
Exactly round 26 and 27 when their steal ships were abandonned. During R25 they were more than 20% Etd in uni... I should know I was one of them.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 10:12   #16
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Re: r28 shipstats

thats mostly because they were the best race (perhaps along with terran with disds) rather than that people decided they liked them as a race because of that one steal ship... the dealer was a useful ship, but if it had simply been similar to the peg I doubt there would have been any fewer etds.

even without the ability to steal cutter's their co fleet was perhaps the best fleet in the game while their cr was very good for teamups.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 10:56   #17
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Re: r28 shipstats

And the tycoon was wtfpwn.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 11:03   #18
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Re: r28 shipstats

I'm not a big fan of zik not having the potential to build all classes of ships. I'd question cath a bit as well. Any cr cath will probably have the two cr ships, maybe the bs and spiders. It's like etd last round in terms of usefulness in ally def but worse.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 12:15   #19
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'm not a big fan of zik not having the potential to build all classes of ships. I'd question cath a bit as well. Any cr cath will probably have the two cr ships, maybe the bs and spiders. It's like etd last round in terms of usefulness in ally def but worse.
My approach to CR cath would be FR/CR/BS. Locust outperforms harpy 1-on-1 and is kind of similar to last round's vsharrak, except that it's pretty decent anti-xand-FR too. I'd also build scorpions to take advantage of the locust flak vs etd/xan/cath, providing 2 pure defships.

Meanwhile DE caths would have to build a mix of tara/scorp as their deffleet.


Your concerns could probably be fixed by:
Tarantula: Init 2->1
Guardian: Init 2->1
Thief: Class CO->FI

The thief might need a small boost relative to the phoenix and the first 2 changes make the scorpion more attractive.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 12:41   #20
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Re: r28 shipstats

Noooooo, need the cutlass and cors same class
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 12:47   #21
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Noooooo, need the cutlass and cors same class
I thought that to begin with.

But it shouldn't be such a major change. E/R can be played around with to get the same result as having them both the same class against etd/cath fleets (the main reason I tried to peg EMP targetting prios together), whilst the corsair vs ghost balance can be worked out.

Weakening ziks against terran FI seems fine; the FI struggle slightly already.

Also, I thought of moving the banshee to a DE->DE ship with no secondary target, firing at the same init as the drake but I'm not sure about that. Gives the spider/peg less to do and the recl/cerb more. But I was slightly worried that the number of banshees flying around with 2 ticks to gather for in-ally def could be a serious nerf to terran DE that are already struggling vs ingal scorp/blade. Alternatively, banshee damage could be cut further.

EDIT: Also, you'll note I obliterated the cost differences between races. These can be added in if desired. I also thought of having 1 BS class structure killer for all races.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 13:10   #22
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Re: r28 shipstats

hmm moving the thief to fi seems fine to me, but I would ask that the lancer should also be moved to T1:Fi T2:CO in order to give the etd a chance against those thiefs - otherwise they are just shooting ships that have already been frozen as they have the same targeting as the defender... this would also give them slightly more chance against the terran fi - tho I suspect they would be wiped out before they got a chance to fire!
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 13:50   #23
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Re: r28 shipstats

Just invent another random ship that doesn't change the overall ability of ziks too much instead of changing the thief. The locust is a bit different to the vsh. Emped t1 by the guardian as opposed to last round t2 by the viper. As you say we can change that though. I'm not pro the tula change. That's a change that really hurts caths attacking ability more than anything. I don't think anyone will seriously build scorpions, it's no investor from a few rounds ago but it's pretty bad.

I'm trying to look at what I'd do based on these stats. I like xan, its ships are just great, however you have to research cr now to be able to fake. Xan had a lot of extra punch last round with their faking abilities there. Terran I really like bar the vulnerability to cr/bs incs. Cath I'm not pro, offers little in terms of ally def and will require a lot as they always do. Zik is decent but has some weird things going on. You have to build maras for anti-bs but the rogue is vastly superior anti-cr. You have to build fr to roid with but the pillager is the ship you want. Etd are just like last round with a co roiding fleet instead of an fr one so they're improved slightly, or like cath co planets from last round.

Xan with pure co/fr would be the best fleet I'd see. This will end up being disgusting as you'll get that situation from a few rounds ago when there were loads of xans and they all went bomber/fr fleets and the low armour/high firepower/same init thing made attacking with fr an exercise in insanity. Hard to know what to do with that though.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 14:04   #24
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Just invent another random ship that doesn't change the overall ability of ziks too much instead of changing the thief. The locust is a bit different to the vsh. Emped t1 by the guardian as opposed to last round t2 by the viper. As you say we can change that though.
I guard/recl to DE/FR targets would probably be best.

The naga has to have reasonable E/R so that it isn't underpowered vs the orb/avenger (so avenger/orb stun it at about the efficiency they stunned bomber last round, or less). This could be solved by ubering recl/guard, or swapping their targets.

Ubering them would mean you'd have to uber locust even more to keep it viable (using last round's vsh as a benchmark), or you could just swap the targets, keep the locust normal and keep xands with their tiny E/R.

Quote:
I'm not pro the tula change. That's a change that really hurts caths attacking ability more than anything. I don't think anyone will seriously build scorpions, it's no investor from a few rounds ago but it's pretty bad.
With an init 1 tula that stuns orbs/avenger at a relatively low efficiency (80% ish, say?), I would buy both tula and scorp. Cath fleets wouldn't be hurt too badly by it and the scorp would have its niche.

Still, not sure about it yet.






On the whole, your post is a great sign though. If good players can't instantly work out a best race, then things are cool. Can't comment definitively on cath/etd until E/Rs are in, but atm I actually like cath. Pity I'm not playing properly or if these stats are used, I'd consider playing an FR/CR/BS cath to prove (or disprove) my point.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 16:32   #25
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Re: r28 shipstats

There is no Naga, you mean gryphon?


How about making Brigand a killer and Pillager a stealer?

edit: Nm, i cant wrap my head around how to 'fix' the problems mentioned without having wholesale changes :|
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 17:06   #26
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Re: r28 shipstats

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There is no Naga, you mean gryphon?
Aye <3

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How about making Brigand a killer and Pillager a stealer?

edit: Nm, i cant wrap my head around how to 'fix' the problems mentioned without having wholesale changes :|
Yeah. I tried that, but I mentioned the reasons why I didn't do that on pg7 or 8 of the other thread.
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Unread 5 Aug 2008, 23:44   #27
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Re: r28 shipstats

Someone else then me would surely notice that those tweaks you posted gate was pretty much nothing else but trading ETD fr for cath CO :|

its easier to switch the Cathaar and Etd name
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Unread 6 Aug 2008, 08:19   #28
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Re: r28 shipstats

It's just that Xan with CR is EWW :crymeariver:
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Unread 6 Aug 2008, 19:56   #29
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Re: r28 shipstats

I think stats are fine for most races but what i found disturbing was those cathaar ships. They are supposed to be peace loving race and on those stats they have toomany kill ships.

So my suggestion is to make most of them to emp and just leave 1 or 2 ship killers there.
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Unread 6 Aug 2008, 21:12   #30
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Re: r28 shipstats

The kill ships are there to prevent the EMP from screwing up pretty much everything.
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Unread 7 Aug 2008, 09:37   #31
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Re: r28 shipstats

Brand: for the 'theme' of cath that's a good idea, but it's been tried a couple of times before (iirc r25 had cath with 1 killship, annd r13 had cath with killships doing almost no dmg) and it made cath pretty shit.

EMP is kind of broken because if you're big, it means you're almost unstoppable, but once you fall behind the average value you're piss easy to stop (because everyone sends all their flak to defend you since they don't risk losing any ships) and piss easy to roid (because you're free roids).

Killships seem to have balanced this out a bit when they've been tried. 3 killers is the same they had last round anyway - I think it's justified.
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Unread 7 Aug 2008, 17:24   #32
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Re: r28 shipstats

stay away from my precious corsair.
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Unread 8 Aug 2008, 10:23   #33
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Re: r28 shipstats

Seeing as it is sign up day?? what are the stats......?
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Unread 8 Aug 2008, 11:55   #34
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Seeing as it is sign up day?? what are the stats......?
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Unread 9 Aug 2008, 02:35   #35
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Re: r28 shipstats

On the stats page, there's a typo for the Guardian, it should be EMP not Cloaked... cloak ship init 2 wow.
Also what the point in ETD having a normal ship ?
Either they're a EMP + Cloak race, or a jack of all trades , in that case where's the stealer ?
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Unread 9 Aug 2008, 13:39   #36
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Re: r28 shipstats

Use beta.planetarion.com please for most up to date stats.
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Unread 9 Aug 2008, 17:30   #37
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Probably better to keep any changes to a minimum - and start testing those changes immediately.
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I don't think alternative stats should be ruled out, but tweaks to last round's set are probably more sensible.
Good to see that our opinions still count for nothing.
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Unread 9 Aug 2008, 18:01   #38
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Re: r28 shipstats

Seeing as gate designed this set primarily and the fact far more people wanted changes than the same set again I think it's safe to say that in this situation people were listened to.
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Unread 9 Aug 2008, 19:36   #39
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Re: r28 shipstats

recluse a cat ship?

The manual says the ETD are a scavenger race. I find it hard to believe they didn't salvage at least one stealer.
ETD should be made up of old ships from previous rounds, with the same names of old rounds and maybe the same stats.
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Unread 9 Aug 2008, 22:31   #40
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Seeing as gate designed this set primarily and the fact far more people wanted changes than the same set again I think it's safe to say that in this situation people were listened to.
Just not the actual designer of the stats (or me).

Apparently we're still at the stage of having to add new ships in an attempt to get some semblance of balance (a Cath corvette I believe). Still a full six days to go until tick start - no need to panic just yet.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 07:22   #41
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Re: r28 shipstats

Look on in amazement kids as I turn this molehill into mount ****ing everest.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 08:29   #42
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Re: r28 shipstats

The irishman that went up a hill and came down a mountain?
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 10:55   #43
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Re: r28 shipstats

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The irishman that went up a hill and came down a mountain?
Was there an earthquake? Sudden drop in sea water levels? Asteroid strike?
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 12:19   #44
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Re: r28 shipstats

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The manual says the ETD are a scavenger race. I find it hard to believe they didn't salvage at least one stealer.
ETD should be made up of old ships from previous rounds, with the same names of old rounds and maybe the same stats.
Stalwart and (I think) Paladin were r10 cath ships. Defender and Guardian are old EMP ships. Lancer, Fireblade, Broadsword are old xan ships without the geeky first part. Using old stats, I'd argue, is completely inappropriate. The oldest stats have different guns, agility etc. r10s had no init or type. After that we had subvert, and until r24 or so we had no multiple targets. Plus it would **** balance.

This is about as close to what you want as we can get - correct me if I'm wrong!

Right now I quite like the set visible in the public manual, and don't like the beta set. The public manual needs some boosts to EMP vs xand and terran, otherwise I'm pretty happy.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 02:07   #45
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Re: r28 shipstats

Apparently we're still at the stage of having to remove the newly-added ships in an attempt to get some semblance of balance. Still a little under five days to go until tick start - no need to panic just yet.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:29   #46
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Apparently we're still at the stage of having to remove the newly-added ships in an attempt to get some semblance of balance. Still a little under five days to go until tick start - no need to panic just yet.
If anyone wants to comment on stats balance rather than just complaining, that would be great!

Some of you have helped point out minor problems which I'm thankful for (pillager/lancer a bit shit), but no-one has told us about any major imbalances yet.



Right now I'm thinking of swapping defender and lancer class, or just moving the lancer to CO. And changing the pillager to targetting CO/FR at init 6. Any comments of this? These would be the last changes in class/init/targets unless someone else points out a problem.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:54   #47
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Re: r28 shipstats

I would agree with the lancer change to co, at the moment there is no point in getting it as it will be hit by phoenix before it fires and even when it does fire it simply kills those that are frozen, the only time you would want it on attack would be if teamed with terrans, and then U have the phoenix to do the killing work better. The pillager while the fr targeting would be useful the init 6 would make it much less useful against terran fi (which I tend to think is a bit underpowered except for having the ally def advantage). edit: I see I am talking nonsense here!! I always said I was useless at looking at the ziks! - so yes makes it more difficult for xans to hit zik and might make it possible for zik fr/de to hit xan on its own even without many steals which is probably worthwhile (tho only really if the xan has not been spamming revenants or else the revenant goes back to co).

my main complaint as made in the 'complaint about shipstats' thread is that the locust on paper might be as good as the Vsharrak but in reality is not so good. similarly the scorp has problems of basically being T1 of the attack fleets (and most ppl build more ships that target down than sideways) and will be shot first, as no one will build many, and it has almost no flack, I cant see it being any help. It wont even deter pirates as they will be happy with small losses for stealing (tho perhaps it will deter them because they wont want it!).

edit: btw I liked having the beetle in, I bet quite a few cat players would have gone for cr + beetle which would be much more useful for alliance def than having cr + spider.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:54   #48
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Re: r28 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Apparently we're still at the stage of having to remove the newly-added ships in an attempt to get some semblance of balance. Still a little under five days to go until tick start - no need to panic just yet.
Actually no. These are gate's stats entirely. The previous set was my interpretation of gate's set which, as he wasn't here, I'd done.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 10:38   #49
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Re: r28 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Apparently we're still at the stage of having to remove the newly-added ships in an attempt to get some semblance of balance. Still a little under five days to go until tick start - no need to panic just yet.
If anyone wants to comment on stats balance rather than just complaining, that would be great!
Sorry mate - that wasn't aimed at you. I know that you're doing your best in the limited time remaining.
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Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
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Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 10:40   #50
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Re: r28 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Actually no. These are gate's stats entirely. The previous set was my interpretation of gate's set which, as he wasn't here, I'd done.
Ah. Sorry - I didn't realise that.

I understand a little better now.
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Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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