Stats Round 27

[Gate]

As an aside, I eventually got here, with some v rough figures put in. E/R and guns still not included, but that's because the current system is stupid and takes way too much time to work out.

On the whole, terran E/R would be much lower than in previous rounds (stunned at 150%~ efficiency in most cases). I've tried to keep etd/cath EMP target priorities the same (eg both CO/FI or both FR/DE) in order to allow this.

Originally Posted by Telcontar

1) We should dramatically reduce the A/C for the Terran fi fleet - they're the only ones with Fi pods in those stats. Hard to kill fighters would own.

I think playing with E/R and the FI/CO targetting ships should fix this (see point 5).

2) We should also dramatically increase the A/C for zik stealers - there has to be a clear correlation between init and A/C (see point 6 for more thoughts on the zik attack fleets).

Depends what you mean by 'drastic'! They'll probably need a little extra strength, but I don't want to get carried away - zik are ridiculously easy to overpower and hard to underpower.

This round the corsair was a must-have despite dying to tzen at ~100% efficiency. Attackers don't get salvage, so should probably be relatively more powerful, but they should probably be limited to a maximum ~20% better than this round's corsair (potentially less, since they may have flak). The strength should depend on the race they're primarily dealing with IMO.

3) I suggest changing Recluse targets to de/fr instead of fr/de since there are 3 different DE class ships targeting DE and only 1 FR targeting DE. (That might also make Buccaneers a bit more useful, and I think ziks need all the help they can get, by the looks of it).

I wanted to pin guard/recl together so they're both FR/DE OR DE/FR. That way I could nerf DE's E/R to keep both fleets fanciable. Tbh, both ways are fine - E/Rs will determine the best way around.

4) Speaking of cath, I think the Mantis is a bit useless since it can only be used for self-defence and in-gal defence. It'd be pointless to send it in attacks since no DE class ships target CR anyway, and it's too slow for ally def. I'd suggest changing it so that it is an EMP ship targeting BS, though I haven't thought that one through really...

I don't agree with this... a smaller cath can buy a few mantis, so DE can't afford to hit him. A bigger cath needs to invest in more mantis per unit income because DE may consider him a more worthwhile target due to the XP.

Killships are the best way I've seen to balance out an EMP race's broken-ness

5) At the moment, 3 ships have t1 FI (two of those are Terran), whilst 7 ships have t1 CO. Seems like the Etd co fleet is at a disadvantage in respect to the Ter fi, don't you think?

I think you're right; a few of the FI/CO targetters could be swapped around. Pillager/ghost/brig are stuck, and I think defender/spider should have the same target prio as each other: but cutlass, phoenix, lancer might need changing.

6) Having an all-steal zik FR attack fleet will most likely be pretty useless in the sense that It'll be very hard to steal any ships. Alone they are likely to attract a heck of lot of defence, and together with the high-damage Xan FRs, they will most likely scare off any defence (unless covered). One normal and one stealer seems better imho.

Swapping the rogue and pillagers into the respective attack fleets, and moving the marau/brig out is something I considered, I didn't do it yet because:
- Xands are tougher to hit with FR/DE since banshees now shoot directly at the stealer, rather than having to get through the killer.
- Terrans find it easier to hit ziks with their FI
- ziks can more easily hit ziks (rogues hammer the marau and you don't have to send your own marau)
- marau are more regularly available for defence, potentially weakening zik attacks

If you come up with an alternate way to do this, then that's cool. Let me know. <3

[Hude]

Originally Posted by Makhil

and a lot more work for MH

Hilarious.

[Hude]

Originally Posted by Telcontar

Boring or not, my point is I don't think an all-steal attack fleet will be very good at roiding. And without roids, you're not very likely to get a high rank. Though one can't be sure of how effective it'll be until the game is actually running ofc. If we keep it like that, then at the very least I think you should follow my second suggestion and increase the armour and EMP resistance dramatically...

Originally Posted by Gate

Depends what you mean by 'drastic'! They'll probably need a little extra strength, but I don't want to get carried away - zik are ridiculously easy to overpower and hard to underpower.

QFT.

[Telcontar]

Ok, you might be right about a lot of the things you say, at least you seem to have given it a lot of thought.

Just one thing:

Killships are the best way I've seen to balance out an EMP race's broken-ness

I played cath r27 and since I've never seen a cath that I haven't been able to hit because of its kill ships, I didn't build a single killer. Ofc, inter-racial conflicts are probably different, and I ended up rank 94 so I might not be the perfect example of "a big planet" either, but I saw scans of several of the big caths and as I recall none of them had much res invested in killers.

The stunners are simply much more efficient, i.e. building killers effectively means you're wasting resources. And if you indeed are a big guy, you're not likely to see many solo attacks on you anyways, are you? Surely you can't build enough killers to scare of teamups!

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Telcontar

Ok, you might be right about a lot of the things you say, at least you seem to have given it a lot of thought.

I tried to take some of your stuff on board for the next set, here (the FI/CO targetting mainly)... and I'd plan to play with zik A/C D/C to allay your fears if I have time.

EMP targetting priorities are not set until some E/Rs are put in... but I think those can be set so you're happy with them.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Telcontar

I played cath r27 and since I've never seen a cath that I haven't been able to hit because of its kill ships, I didn't build a single killer. Ofc, inter-racial conflicts are probably different, and I ended up rank 94 so I might not be the perfect example of "a big planet" either, but I saw scans of several of the big caths and as I recall none of them had much res invested in killers.

We don't have enough data to make sure either of us are right on this, but the reasons I support killships are:

- cath have done abysmally in the rounds they've had awful killships eg. r13/25. I don't remember them doing badly if they have good killers.
- cath have done reasonably well in rounds with effective killships.
- the theoretical basis - a zero loss killship reduces the amount of incomings you get
- my own experience and others I talked to. Eg I played cath r17 and etd r26, both with plenty of EMPers. You were much harder to hit & easier to cover with investment in killers (ask anyone who tried to hit me last round, or caj from r17!)

[Wishmaster]

Originally Posted by Gate

We don't have enough data to make sure either of us are right on this, but the reasons I support killships are:

- cath have done abysmally in the rounds they've had awful killships eg. r13/25. I don't remember them doing badly if they have good killers.

Corsairs r13. the best ship in the history of pax?
Kinda fked an already bad race on their own. ( I was cath and ofc stopped playing mid round ^^ )

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Wishmaster

Corsairs r13. the best ship in the history of pax?
Kinda fked an already bad race on their own. ( I was cath and ofc stopped playing mid round ^^ )

Lucky that ****up was so horrendous that it helped teach everyone who was there never to make the same mistake again!