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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 21:06   #201
[DW]Entropy
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Re: Stats Round 27

the discussion of the round 27 stats has turned into an argument about the distribution of races in the rankings of round 26.

I think i'm gonna go strictly fi/co zik and keep all ships defensive since i won't be as active as the previous rounds. They look like they might deter xan's which imo will contribute to a lot of incs
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Unread 3 Jun 2008, 21:09   #202
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Re: Stats Round 27

If ziks really were that good surely we could see some indication of it if we do remove the ascendancy planets?
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 09:39   #203
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I'm not saying that its good to remove the asc ziks from the considerations and say "well that was an abberation". But i'm definitely not comfortable with the notion that just because 100% of your alliance members lost roids early on didnt mean that being Zik couldnt help your chances. They dont follow unless a race is massively wtfpwn such that they cannot be roided even at the start of the round. Which, i think, is immediately apparent with the stats.

Without having actually played the round, nor intending to have a planet this round, my observations based on other comments on the forums would indicate that Zik was probably the strongest race, even without the asc bias. If that's true, justifying positive changes towards zik is more difficult to justify. Though the changes that have been made make zik easier to attack (apparently), i still think ignoring a certain (large) group and calling them all an outlier is bad methodology.
Being the person who actually made the stats and played zik myself spending half the round in nox(very low on ziks) and the other half in asc, this is why I believe JBG is correct:

My own gal was the top roiding gal for a good while at the start, but we also lost huge chunks of roids several times within the first few weeks, barring LordN(zik) who was more or less flagshipped due to practical reasons. In general, ziks did get roided early on accross the board since they need a mass of value to discourage incs. Towards the end of the round ziks did become increasingly hard to roid, but this is more than easily compensated for by the fact that even the best of ziks(again, I'll use LordN as an example as he was #1 roids for large periods of time) were only around top30-40 in total round roids. Roidlosses might have been infrequent at the end, but they had to be to justify the low roidgains. Ascendancy benefitted greatly from the tactical mistakes of their opposition, and roidlosses might have been far more widespread even at the end had they(denox) done a better job militarily. In such a scenario being all-xan would have been a lot more beneficial to Asc, and I generally believe that a mainly DE xan route would have been as effective if not more effective for Asc last round, not the least when you realize that Xan which was underrepresented in Asc still is the dominant race in the top100, top200 and top500(over 30% each iirc).
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 11:42   #204
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
In this case the two fleets most changed, etd fr which is now a lot better versus zik as fr/de and etd cr/bs, for which the same is also true, both affect zik the most.
perhaps I am just being dense and not seeing it but I dont see the change to etd fr (unless U count the addition of the Vsharrak Destroyer as fr - given that this will simply target the same ships as the defender has already frozen I dont see the benefit apart from more often forcing the defending party to run - also more faking options with fr I guess, they wont know if U have de or lancers in Ur fleet for example)

the stats lines for etd fr look exactly the same to me for round 26 and 27 while the other side in the debate here zikonian's fi/co emp res has gone up.

btw I dont debate that etd both their fr fleet and particularly their cr fleet should be good against zik's.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 12:15   #205
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
perhaps I am just being dense and not seeing it but I dont see the change to etd fr (unless U count the addition of the Vsharrak Destroyer as fr
He does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
- given that this will simply target the same ships as the defender has already frozen I dont see the benefit apart from more often forcing the defending party to run - also more faking options with fr I guess, they wont know if U have de or lancers in Ur fleet for example)
have a ship in ur attack fleet which targets the same as u freeze, that pwns.
And what else do u want as etd, than to force ur target to run, and u cap free roids?
And yes, it gives more options to the etd with regards to faking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
the stats lines for etd fr look exactly the same to me for round 26 and 27 while the other side in the debate here zikonian's fi/co emp res has gone up.

btw I dont debate that etd both their fr fleet and particularly their cr fleet should be good against zik's.
I belive the ziks got more emp res because of the added DE to their attack fleet. I dont think they needed it though - agreed.
Compared to last round, etds now wtfpwn vs ziks! with BOTH CR/BSr and FR/DE.
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 13:14   #206
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Re: Stats Round 27

hehe thanks, just spent some time on battlecalcs working all that out when I need just have waited for Ur response posted the question before I really got round to thinking about it - never a good idea!

tbh etd looks pretty good apart from against terrans (particularly ter fr) which is to be expected really against a race that is supposed to have very good emp res
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Unread 4 Jun 2008, 13:32   #207
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
hehe thanks, just spent some time on battlecalcs working all that out when I need just have waited for Ur response posted the question before I really got round to thinking about it - never a good idea!

tbh etd looks pretty good apart from against terrans (particularly ter fr) which is to be expected really against a race that is supposed to have very good emp res
glad to be of assistance.

however, I m not saying etd is the race to go! I m just saying they have improved from last round
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 10:24   #208
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Re: Stats Round 27

How do people rate the bomber versus the peacekeeper?

I myself am actually thinking of trying out the peacekeeper this round.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 10:47   #209
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Re: Stats Round 27

fi/co - PK

DE - Bombers.

simple as that

edit.
meh, spose I have to explain why.

the pk is a better ship on its own imo
the bombers will be good flak along with ur DE, mainly vs cath co.
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Quote:
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 11:20   #210
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Re: Stats Round 27

oh man, wishmaster is right!
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 12:28   #211
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Re: Stats Round 27

But the bomber is so unbelievable shit versus bs. Chances are you could spend less res on peacekeepers than bombers meaning you have more res to build DE for.
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Unread 6 Jun 2008, 12:53   #212
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Re: Stats Round 27

pk isnt exactly superb vs bs either and the flak factor is something to consider

i.e. you are ****ed against bs on your own anyway

+ you can ignore siege/heavies
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Unread 15 Jun 2008, 00:41   #213
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
But the bomber is so unbelievable shit versus bs. Chances are you could spend less res on peacekeepers than bombers meaning you have more res to build DE for.
PK is better against terran BS, but it's not better against ziks as they have the init avantage. It also means you have less flak to absorb viper EMP if you're a DE based xan. It's a conundrum but I'd probably go with bombers.
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Unread 15 Jun 2008, 09:00   #214
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Re: Stats Round 27

Yeah I went with bombers aswell due to it being easier to get i the ally. In my opinion zik bs really isnt a problem seeing how good thiefs are versus them and how few zik bs fleets there tends to be.
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Unread 15 Jun 2008, 09:45   #215
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Re: Stats Round 27

I'm giving the Bombers a go, but i feel depressed whenever i look at a battlecalc that i need them to actually kill something .
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 14:44   #216
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Re: Stats Round 27

More etds than ziks in the t100 oh my god!
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 14:55   #217
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Re: Stats Round 27

Etd is clearly overpowered.
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 15:25   #218
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Re: Stats Round 27

I notice Etds are going primarily FR (PT259, value of recluse in uni is over 5 times the value of all the fireblades in the uni).

This amazes me & I expect etd will follow r26's trend of decline. I believe CR/BS is loads better than FR.
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 15:57   #219
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I notice Etds are going primarily FR (PT259, value of recluse in uni is over 5 times the value of all the fireblades in the uni).

This amazes me & I expect etd will follow the previous round's trend of later round decline. I believe CR/BS is loads better than FR.
It's probably too early to make that sort of statement about where etds will invest at pt 259.
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 16:23   #220
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's probably too early to make that sort of statement about where etds will invest at pt 259.
You're right. However, it is indicative.

Etds need hulls 3 for self defence vs CR, so should research it pretty quickly. Terrans, on the other hand, do not have such an incentive. Yet the naga:dragon value ratio is closer to 2:1 compared to the recl:fireblade 5:1 (as an aside, viper:roach is ~3:1)

This does suggest that the majority of etds are going FR heavy, whereas I would recommend defender or destroyer with CR/BS
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 18:08   #221
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
You're right. However, it is indicative.

Etds need hulls 3 for self defence vs CR, so should research it pretty quickly. Terrans, on the other hand, do not have such an incentive. Yet the naga:dragon value ratio is closer to 2:1 compared to the recl:fireblade 5:1 (as an aside, viper:roach is ~3:1)

This does suggest that the majority of etds are going FR heavy, whereas I would recommend defender or destroyer with CR/BS
Personally i think etd fr is far superior to cr/bs, but then that could just be me cr incs are hardly going to be a huge issue when you have a huge amount of fr flak to go with bomber/naga/theif etc.
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 22:06   #222
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
Personally i think etd fr is far superior to cr/bs, but then that could just be me cr incs are hardly going to be a huge issue when you have a huge amount of fr flak to go with bomber/naga/theif etc.
If you avoid hitting etd and terrans, you only have to worry about stunning the target's bomber/thief. There will be a ton of bomber/thief flying around, but frigates also have to deal with harpy/corsair (although there is proportionally less of this atm).

However, there are 3 primary reasons for picking the CR/BS fleet:
1) It's cloaked. Faking is fun.
2) It has killships; covering a fleet of killships is much harder than covering a fleet of pure EMP. An avenger/fireblade fleet needs more thief to cover than a similarly valued defender fleet. You can also persuade the target to run, reducing losses drastically.
3) It is defensively far superior to having a CO fleet. You'll be vulnerable to CO if you build CR/BS, but you're much, much tougher against FR/DE/CR/BS. I believe the trade off is worth it.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 02:12   #223
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Re: Stats Round 27

I have to agree, looking at this last night, i was wondering why etds werent going for the CR. I think that some of them just got into the rut of building FR early, then got stuck because they always needed just that little bit more FR to stun their targets.

CR/BA fleets will wtfpwn Xans, and there are plenty of Xans in the universe. I cant see etd doing badly like that. I've been telling new players who are signing up late to go etd .
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 08:22   #224
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Re: Stats Round 27

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CR/BA fleets will wtfpwn Xans, and there are plenty of Xans in the universe. I cant see etd doing badly like that. I've been telling new players who are signing up late to go etd .
You can also hit caths quite comfortably (and they're pretty good targets as your BS absorb their EMP but still get to fire, and they don't have any FR to flak against your avenger). And you can hit ziks, given sufficient fireblade.


However, the ne thing I'm still not sure about is what to build as anti CO. I think Destroyers are slightly better, but defenders do have some advantages.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 13:04   #225
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Re: Stats Round 27

I believe that like last round, the etds are forced to prod FR to selfcover vs diff. shit incs they get.
I planned last round to go CR, but found myself in a situation where I constantly prodded FR to selfcover, and eventually gave up my cr project.

That being said, cr/bs is alot better this round, btu so is FR/DE ^^
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 14:05   #226
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
I believe that like last round, the etds are forced to prod FR to selfcover vs diff. shit incs they get.
I planned last round to go CR, but found myself in a situation where I constantly prodded FR to selfcover, and eventually gave up my cr project.
Yeah, I think this is one of the elements of etd as it is. You've got the fast start of a cath with emp proving highly effective early on or the slow and steady long-term growth of xan/ter. By having all the resources originally invested in the cath side of things you end up being unable to invest sufficient amounts in the deterrent elements of your fleet.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 14:18   #227
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Re: Stats Round 27

there 2 types of etds going cr this round.

the obvious def hoe in a fence gal, or a shit player which never got any roids with his FR, which allowed him to prod CR.

Doubt there will be much CR around... They just need the FR too much
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 16:34   #228
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
there 2 types of etds going cr this round.

the obvious def hoe in a fence gal, or a shit player which never got any roids with his FR, which allowed him to prod CR.

Doubt there will be much CR around... They just need the FR too much
Why are FR needed so much for self cover? FR based etd are pretty good at stopping CO fleets (with destroyer backup ofc), but are very vulnerable to FR/DE/CR/BS.

By contrast, CR/BS based etd are more vulnerable to CO, but nowhere near as vulnerable to FR/DE/CR/BS.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 16:53   #229
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Re: Stats Round 27

I tend to agree with gate... having gone with Wishmaster's non existent advice and gone etd I am having more luck roiding with cr and having my fr as a alliance defense fleet (which means I have to build recluse rather than just the recommended defender) however this does provide a 2nd attack fleet if wanted to hit smaller xans or ziks.

and yes so far I am also finding that I get mostly co incs and spam defenders to selfcover! (I have not yet managed to build many destroyers to see if this changes things - I doubt it will as xans will still attack relying on the pulsar to scare you away) although its a bit early in the round to tell for sure having liked playing terrans in the past I will probably find myself going cr if I can. The cr in my opinion has more attack options than the fr and nicely leaves whatever fr you have free for defense which is useful in most alliances where emp is generally quite highly valued.

I am also finding that despite so far having alot of emp ships I am getting less incoming than my cathaar galmate who is similar size/value, which implies that etd is a good half way house, tho as a half way house it will probably never be a popular race.
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Unread 19 Jun 2008, 08:55   #230
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Why are FR needed so much for self cover? FR based etd are pretty good at stopping CO fleets (with destroyer backup ofc), but are very vulnerable to FR/DE/CR/BS.

By contrast, CR/BS based etd are more vulnerable to CO, but nowhere near as vulnerable to FR/DE/CR/BS.
let me explain it with 1 word.

flak.
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Unread 19 Jun 2008, 11:38   #231
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster
let me explain it with 1 word.

flak.
The only ships you're really vulnerable to if you go CR/BS are CO.

Sure, FR may provide flak against cath CO, but vipers are actually more efficient at stunning defenders than they are at stunning vsh. So you'd be better off buying vsh unless you have enough defenders to entirely stun the attacker. In terms of xand CO, defender's advantage isn't really flak; it's stunning.

Against the FR attack fleets, fireblade/avenger are vastly superior to a number of recluse, and again, the FR aren't flakking anything.

Against DE fleets, they don't do anything that blade/avenger don't do better (except give shadows something to shoot).

Against CR they don't flak your CR/BS at all.

The only potentially regular use I see for them in terms of flak is flakking thieves against wyvern. In which case I'd probably be happier to have more broad/guardian in the first place.

Sure they may flak you against some CR/BS fleets, but cath/etd CR should find it pretty hard to hit you anyway.
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Unread 19 Jun 2008, 11:52   #232
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Re: Stats Round 27

as u correctly pointed out here, either u go fr/de and are strong vs fi/co/de/cr/bs
or u go cr/bs/de and suck vs co, and are still very hittable by fr/de and/or zik bs.
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Unread 19 Jun 2008, 14:47   #233
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
as u correctly pointed out here, either u go fr/de and are strong vs fi/co/de/cr/bs
or u go cr/bs/de and suck vs co, and are still very hittable by fr/de and/or zik bs.
I don't think a CR/BS planet is easily hit by FR/DE. It is far less vulnerable than an FR planet because it kills stuff; it doesn't just EMP them.

For example, would the attacking zik prefer this one, or this one? Note that there's more value in recl than in blades there.

Etd FR don't shoot back, whilst xand DE get slaughtered at 150% efficiency (and most of their bomber can't shoot because of avenger). CR/BS is also far better against terran FR than a recluse defence fleet is. As a terran, would you prefer this or this?

And as pointed out in the calcs above, CR/BS are better at stopping FR/DE although recluse may be a slightly safer bet against xand FR/DE (although I would point out that avengers really tip things in your favour).
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Unread 22 Jun 2008, 01:38   #234
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Re: Stats Round 27

Im tending to agree with Gate atm, as far as i can tell, this round anyway. Im a fr/de Zik and up until etd started prodding CR couple of days ago, i wouldnt even scan them, as i knew i could roid them, whereas now with their cr/bs it takes more effort

You making your point felt in game i see Gate
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Unread 15 Jul 2008, 20:38   #235
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Re: Stats Round 27

These stats are good IMO. Every race can perform well, every attack fleet is useful & thanks to multitargetting there are almost always 2+ viable fleet comps per race & there is no race that is obviously awful.

If we plan on using them again, it might be plausible to 'swap' the smaller etd & cath ships around. This would look something like this.
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Unread 15 Jul 2008, 21:47   #236
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Re: Stats Round 27

Swap phoenix targetting. Not having a single ship with t1=co is pretty dumb.
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Unread 15 Jul 2008, 23:16   #237
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Re: Stats Round 27

These stats arent bad at all, every race can be played pretty well if you have a clue. In my opinion Terrans should be a bit better defensively though, they seem to have a really hard time hanging on to roids.
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Unread 16 Jul 2008, 16:47   #238
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Re: Stats Round 27

I'd swap the phoenix targetting if I had the chance again. As I recall I still meant to change some things but when I got back appoco had announced the stats were final. Maybe making the harpy fire before the tzen would help. Xan and zik just have a lot more appeal to most players I think. Etd and terran will always suffer if enough players don't pick them in the first place.
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Unread 16 Jul 2008, 20:58   #239
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Re: Stats Round 27

Harpy before tzen would be a joke its a joke as it is now. All these fking planets with just harpy and nix's.

You simply cant land on enough harpys, people are stupid and willing to lose them and it hurts to much
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 01:36   #240
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Re: Stats Round 27

I feel like there is only 3 class of ships with those stats... why ? because almost all the ships target only one of these 'megaclass': FiCo, FrDe or CrBs. If you attack with Fi or Co you will receive the same kind of def. On a side note it means faking DE with FR is a pointless.

If we keep multitargeting I think it would be an improvement that a ship's T1 and T2 are not in the same 'megaclass'.
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 08:00   #241
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Re: Stats Round 27

Multiple targetting is a mixed bag for me. Fleet composition is easier since its introduction - Attack with DE and have corsair and marauder + BS flak out 24/7 on defence. This is very convenient for average players. However faking is very difficult. Even if you have out thought your target, they are still likely to have a set of ships home that ruin the fake, even if they haven't realised that a fake was a possibility.
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 10:09   #242
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
If we keep multitargeting I think it would be an improvement that a ship's T1 and T2 are not in the same 'megaclass'.
What? This is likely to make faking more difficult as most of the time you're faking something as something else from a different "megaclass".
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 11:19   #243
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Re: Stats Round 27

t3 target all ftw

stats as they are atm aint all too bad.

change the nix a bit, make xan a bit less good, make the cutlass a fi. (plzzzzzzz)

prolly a few other tweaks needed also, if not only to have some variety
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 13:32   #244
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
What? This is likely to make faking more difficult as most of the time you're faking something as something else from a different "megaclass".
The worst effects of this can be avoided by making sure the two targets are not the same as any individual races two pod classes.

Eg CO/BS would be acceptable, but FR/BS would not because that would pwn terran fakes.

It's not perfect, but it does give another degree of freedom which could be useful to the designer.
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 13:54   #245
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
The worst effects of this can be avoided by making sure the two targets are not the same as any individual races two pod classes.

Eg CO/BS would be acceptable, but FR/BS would not because that would pwn terran fakes.

It's not perfect, but it does give another degree of freedom which could be useful to the designer.
What does this have to do with faking? No race has both fi/co or fr/de or cr/bs class pods. Are you people ****ing nuts?
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 15:12   #246
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Re: Stats Round 27

You misunderstand JBG. Gate wants more freedom for the stats designer by removing the constraint that ships can only target consecutive classes, ie Fi/Co, but not Fi/Fr.

He adds that this would only be viable if no ship targets the 2 pod classes of any particular race, ie, Fi/Fr is allowed (no race with both Fi and Fr pods), but Fr/Bs isn't.

Personally I don't think the benefit is that great.
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Unread 17 Jul 2008, 16:15   #247
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Re: Stats Round 27

Mz got me about right.

It could be useful, but doesn't seem so important with the current set.
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Unread 19 Jul 2008, 11:28   #248
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Re: Stats Round 27

I don't think that's what he wanted. Right now we have only the Drake, Sentinel, Mantis and Buccaneer, hitting two Megaclasses with their T1 and T2. Basically if you have a De fleet as a Zik, there is little reason not to send your Fr along. Xans usually send there Fighters along with their Co. My Cr/Bs fleet is a Cr/Bs fleet, eventhough I have both Cr and Bs pods. With the current stats there is little point in splitting the fleet into a Cr and a Bs fleet.

Another point is that some races have only 2 MegaClasses. Cathaar have FiCo and CrBs, Xan have FiCo and FrDe (most don't build Peacekeepers), Etd have FrDe and CrBs. There is no defence ship left. Luckily Xan and Etd can fake, but for Cathaar there is no real def ship left.
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Unread 20 Jul 2008, 13:01   #249
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
but for Cathaar there is no real def ship left.
Alliances will gain much more from people who play cath with a concentrated fleet.

They will either invest in a CR attack fleet or a CO attack fleet - trying to get both is a bit silly. If you go for both you've got a half-assed roach fleet and a half-assed viper fleet, meaning both of your fleets are shit (especially given EMP's dynamic).

So either build CR with beetles , or CO with tarantulas.

Etd do find it very hard though - FR with guard/broad works (and leaves you wide open to FR/DE/CR/BS inc), but CR/BS etds have to seriously sacrifice attacking power to defend. I often leave my broads home for defence and it has punished me on a lot of attacks. It would be nice for etd to have another defensive option from a purely selfish point of view.
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Unread 20 Jul 2008, 16:18   #250
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Re: Stats Round 27

yeh I have found the same thing, I have a puny fleet of recluse to send on defence missions or else I have to compromise the cr attack fleet which is not the most difficult to stop anyway - too meny bombers flying around, or else if U leave too meny broadswords/guards home for ur alliance the defenders can easy get U with dragons/marauders etc

the only solution is to team up even on rather small targets
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