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4 Apr 2006, 12:10
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#101
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Not everyone is so risk averse.
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If there are two paths to the same destination and one is safe while the other is covered in landmines, you do not have to be 'risk averse' to take the safer path.
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hi
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4 Apr 2006, 12:14
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#102
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
If there are two paths to the same destination and one is safe while the other is covered in landmines, you do not have to be 'risk averse' to take the safer path.
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They are not the same destination however.
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4 Apr 2006, 12:17
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#103
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
"The doctors discovered that the man was suffering from severe short-term memory problems of a type usually only seen in lifetime alcoholics."
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well that's conclusive proof that ecstacy is better!!!
__________________
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4 Apr 2006, 12:18
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#104
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
They are not the same destination however.
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then the difference between the value of the (alleged) two destinations has to out weigh the risk of landmines.
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hi
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4 Apr 2006, 12:19
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#105
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
then the difference between the value of the (alleged) two destinations has to out weigh the risk of landmines.
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Yes, it does, which is my point.
Although I'd say the risk of landmines is slightly more than the risk of taking anything but that's a matter of degree.
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4 Apr 2006, 12:21
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#106
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes, it does, which is my point.
Although I'd say the risk of landmines is slightly more than the risk of taking anything but that's a matter of degree.
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a conviction for class A possession seems quite a deadly landmine to me ...
let's put it this way: how much money would you want to spend 4 years in prison and lose your employment/job prospects?
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4 Apr 2006, 12:30
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#107
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
It's not proof of anything. I wasn't saying that ecstasy was better, just that if we are agreed that e gives "more bang for your buck" and this asserts that the long terms psychological effects are the same then e for the win.
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your comments only make sense in 1930s prohibition america.
Ignoring the illegality of MDMA when doing any form of cost benefit analysis is simply absurd.
(and there were other psycological problems caused than memory loss. and as I said the study is pretty useless)
__________________
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4 Apr 2006, 12:32
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#108
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
a conviction for class A possession seems quite a deadly landmine to me ...
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Oh, absolutley - and there is a (small) change you could die which is a pretty similarly bad too. I wasn't saying the end result might not be bad - I was saying the chance of it happening was small.
Similarly, the possible result of running across the road not at traffic lights is death. Which is obviously pretty terrible. However, the chance of dying is quite small so people still do it. Potential Seriousness of Effect * Risk = Weighted Risk as it's usually expressed on those terrible risk assesment forms I have to complete sometimes at work.
Similarly, the end result of being put in prison would be a terrible thing for most people (I have no idea how much money I'd give - maybe 10 million quid?). However, the risk of it happening is relatively low. That's the difference.
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4 Apr 2006, 12:35
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#109
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Please find a case of a middle class youth who got prison for possession on a first offence.
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Imprisonment for first time possession happens, a lot. This is not a possession class B. Possion with intent to supply class A carries maximum life. Simple possession frequently results in imprisonment.
The legal system doesn't actually recognise 'class' when sentencing you know.
And this is a pretty silly point anyway. To a middle class boy the worst effect of his conviction (even if he was imprisoned for the maximum term) would be the effect on his employment prospects and job security for the rest of his life.
__________________
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4 Apr 2006, 12:40
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#110
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Similarly, the end result of being put in prison would be a terrible thing for most people (I have no idea how much money I'd give - maybe 10 million quid?). However, the risk of it happening is relatively low. That's the difference.
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IF the risk is low, and i don't know how you calculate 'low' (especially when a member of this forum has been stopped for possession: fortunately only class B), it certainly increases in proportion to the amount of times you do it.
If you just want to break the law for shits and giggles then why not take a class B drug? The risks involve decrease then. However I would suggest the decrease is still insufficient for a rational person to undertake.
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4 Apr 2006, 12:48
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#111
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
c) makes you dependent on it for a 'good time'.
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Isn't this one of the more pertinent points, considering the gist of Dante/TF's posts? Dependancy is a dangerous thing.
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4 Apr 2006, 12:48
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#112
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
IF the risk is low, and i don't know how you calculate 'low'
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Well, as I say, I know of hundreds of people who take E regularly, and I've never even heard of someone being imprisoned for such an offence.
More generally there are thought to be 500,000 to 1,000,000 people who regularly take E yet I am unaware of any masses of people being imprisoned each year.
As I say, all of this simply is about the amount of risk one is willing to undertake vs the potential benefits. Some actions are worth it to the individual, some are not. Having tried cigarettes I was not willing to bear the cost/health risk for the seeming benefit (i.e. pleasure derived from smoking). This does not mean I feel anyone who smokes is "irrational", simply they obviously feel it's worth it on some level.
p.s. Wasn't Henry actually stopped for smoking a joint in public?
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4 Apr 2006, 12:49
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#113
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Isn't this one of the more pertinent points, considering the gist of Dante/TF's posts?
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It's untrue though since as T&F has noted, it often makes having a good time much harder to have. I would hate to take pills before trying to have a wank or have a meal, for instance.
I think JJ is confusing E with heroin or somesuch.
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4 Apr 2006, 12:54
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#114
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
It's untrue though since as T&F has noted, it often makes having a good time much harder to have. I would hate to take pills before trying to have a wank or have a meal, for instance.
I think JJ is confusing E with heroin or somesuch.
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But in the context of going out/clubbing I get the impression that you are fairly likely to take drugs in order to have a 'better' time. Of course, I'm not sure whether this means that without drugs you would have a 'bad' time, or a 'worse' time, or that you wouldn't go out. It seems to me that drug-use becomes habitual in this sense, and I can't imagine it's particularly helpful.
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4 Apr 2006, 12:58
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#115
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, as I say, I know of hundreds of people who take E regularly, and I've never even heard of someone being imprisoned for such an offence.
More generally there are thought to be 500,000 to 1,000,000 people who regularly take E yet I am unaware of any masses of people being imprisoned each year.
As I say, all of this simply is about the amount of risk one is willing to undertake vs the potential benefits. Some actions are worth it to the individual, some are not. Having tried cigarettes I was not willing to bear the cost/health risk for the seeming benefit (i.e. pleasure derived from smoking). This does not mean I feel anyone who smokes is "irrational", simply they obviously feel it's worth it on some level.
p.s. Wasn't Henry actually stopped for smoking a joint in public?
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Trying to determine an actual statistical 'chance of being caught' is both impossible and irrelevant.
a) There is no raw data on actual users vs arrest, caution or conviction numbers.
b) there is a 100% method for avoiding the chance of being convicted for possession class A.
The relevant risks for a cost benefit analysis are those risks we can actually determine.
(You will notice that because the health effects are indeterminable, I would discount them)
However a conviction is a determinable risk. In a situation where the odds can not be calculated a rational man assumes the risk is too great.
EDIT: P.S. - we call that possession
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4 Apr 2006, 13:15
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#116
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Trying to determine an actual statistical 'chance of being caught' is both impossible and irrelevant.
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Not really - it's probably the primary way people assess risks in this context.
Quote:
However a conviction is a determinable risk. In a situation where the odds can not be calculated a rational man assumes the risk is too great.
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Specific odds can rarely be calculated outside games of chance or other mathematic models. For instance, last year I had to take part in a business planning workshop where we had to assess the risks for a new partnering agreement we were entering into. The risks we had to identify were things like :
- London could win the Olympic Games (which would push up construction costs in the South East)
- The economy could face a significant downturn which might make business conditions harder
- The government might adopt unexpected legislation which might make such an agreement impossibe/difficult
- Our chosen partner could go bust.
...and so on.
None of these had specific odds against them because we just didn't know. However, we had to estimate using a very broad rule of thumb to say high risk, medium risk, etc. That is how most risk assesments are carried out. Situaitons where we can say positively "There is a 1.25% chance of x happening" are staggeringly rare in real-life scenarios. Similarly, while we cannot say for certain what the risk is for being arrested, we can take a guess (based on anecdotal/statistical evidence), and this is what informs most people's decision making process.
Quote:
EDIT: P.S. - we call that possession
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Yes, I realise that - but my point was that actually smoking something illegal is incurring a slightly higher risk than simply carrying it in one's poket.
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4 Apr 2006, 14:12
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#117
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Furthermore alcohol related crime is not completey unheard of.
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I was halfway through a serious reply to your other post when I read this.
I have decided to stop.
__________________
hi
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4 Apr 2006, 14:15
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#118
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Not really - it's probably the primary way people assess risks in this context.
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that's simply a tautology.
In a situation where a risk is inherently incapable of calculation and therefore assesment it is not rational to simply guess.
The only rational course of action is to avoid that risk completely.
__________________
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4 Apr 2006, 14:21
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#119
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Phew.
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you'll make me cry.
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4 Apr 2006, 14:23
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#120
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
that's simply a tautology.
In a situation where a risk is inherently incapable of calculation and therefore assesment it is not rational to simply guess.
The only rational course of action is to avoid that risk completely.
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This sounds like a recipe for avoiding going outside!
Or chicken kiev. Hopefully chicken kiev
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2006, 14:27
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#121
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
WHEN CONSIDERING A VOLUNTARY NON-ESSENTIAL RECREATIONAL COURSE OF ACTIONwhere a risk is inherently incapable of calculation and therefore assesment it is not rational to simply guess.
The only rational course of action is to avoid that risk completely.
(If i had a knife that reached all the way to Ireland i'd be stabbing you now)
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4 Apr 2006, 14:29
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#122
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Could I borrow said long-distance knife for long-distance cutting of chicken kiev?
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2006, 17:00
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#123
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
(a) there really is no correct way of percieving reality. if you prefer it another way, even if just for a short period of time, why not?
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Rubbish. Even if you're not keen on moral absolutes, some things are real, if we're using the word in any vaguely meaningful sense. I don't care if Hume sees no logic in the assumption that a cause will have a given effect: I think it quite rational to assume that if I get run over by a truck travelling at 100mph, I will die. Life is full of these relationships. If you hit someone, they are likely to resent it. If a pregnant woman has a successful abortion her child will not be born.
Likewise, every human being exists as an individual, with blue eyes (or brown, or green); with certain physical traits; with an emotional and intellectual consciousness. As I see it (from a position of inexperience) drug-use reflects an inherent dissatisfaction with the 'self'. It's an intensely self-conscious (I hesitate to say selfish) reaction to the way one is, an ego-inflator, a mask.
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4 Apr 2006, 17:04
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#124
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
As I see it (from a position of inexperience) drug-use reflects an inherent dissatisfaction with the 'self'. It's an intensely self-conscious (I hesitate to say selfish) reaction to the way one is, an ego-inflator, a mask.
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like religion.
__________________
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4 Apr 2006, 17:07
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#125
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NEWSBOT
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The enby cave!
Posts: 4,872
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
like religion.
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no
__________________
[20:27:47] <nodrog-aawy> **** i think my housemate just caught me masturbating
[11:25:32] <idimmu> you are a little piggy arent you
[13:17:00] <KaneED> i'm so closet i'm like narnia
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Pretty parks and funky scrap metal things here
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4 Apr 2006, 17:13
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#126
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
like religion.
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My faith is an appreciation of my incapacities and limits, not an avoidance of them.
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4 Apr 2006, 17:25
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#127
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Damn Dog
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
Bumping threads is bad mmmkay! Now i feel obliged to voice my opinions on the matter!
Yeah ok and what about the come downs? Ecsttasy is a nasty nasty drug ok it will give you a feeling of euphoria which will last a night, but the next day you will probebly want to kill your self. Hangover^100
There is nothing wrong with smoking pot in MODERATION. But if you arnt carful you will soon find your self making a joint first thing in the morning and then spending all day every day stoned. You will soon realise what a destructive drug this is. When your only friends are also the ones who smoke pot with you and all you do is sit infront of a computer/tv and dont socialise outwith your stoner mates. And you have no motivation to do anything
EDIT: The only thing i do now is drink and even that i dont do very often. Im fitter than i have been. I have a much wider and diverse group of friends. All in all for me taking drugs was ruining my life and i could only see how much it was ruining it when i had stoped.
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what a load of shite! T&F and Dante have explained why already.
im not dependent on anything at the moment (except nicotine). i have in the last hour picked up some weed, but i havent had any for a week before today. hardly a dependency.
i also have 3 different groups of friends that i go out with regularly: one group no one drops pills and i just stick to booze and talk about football and have a good time; another group i take booze then pills and have a bit of a dance and have a good time; and the final group i take pills then weed and have a bit of a dance followed by a long relaxing chat on the comedown.
im not dependent on anything, i just like to enjoy myself and it seems to me pills and weed are a hell of a lot less destructive than booze and tobacco (when i find a decent subsitute for tobacco in joints i will be knocking it on the head for good) they are also much more cost effective; i can have a wicked time on 1 pill (because im new to them) which costs roughly £2.50 and lasts all night and most of the morning compared to paying that just for one drink! (incidently, this is how i got started on pills: went to a new club, ordered two drinks, got charged £9 and thought '**** that' and my decision was made)
ive never wanted to kill myself, i didnt even feel particularly 'down' the next day or any time later.
__________________
"that's a stupid thing to say and you're a stupid person for saying it."
the tolling gang
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4 Apr 2006, 17:30
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#128
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Damn Dog
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
also the risk of being caught doesnt bother me, i buy in clubs the amount i want to use that night. i wouldnt carry them anywhere. the chances of a copper busting me is very small, so small it isnt even worth considering seriously.
__________________
"that's a stupid thing to say and you're a stupid person for saying it."
the tolling gang
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4 Apr 2006, 17:35
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#129
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
also the risk of being caught doesnt bother me, i buy in clubs the amount i want to use that night. i wouldnt carry them anywhere. the chances of a copper busting me is very small, so small it isnt even worth considering seriously.
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denial.
A truly brilliant response.
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hi
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4 Apr 2006, 17:39
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#130
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Damn Dog
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
ok: i get off on the risk; it adds to the buzz.
ffs yahwe, have you any stats for the number of people who were arrested in clubs last year when buying pills off a dealer? i encounter risk from the moment i wake up in the morning, there are bigger things to worry about than the rozzers going undercover to bust some guy for dropping one or two pills (dealing is a different matter ofc and i would never do that)
__________________
"that's a stupid thing to say and you're a stupid person for saying it."
the tolling gang
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4 Apr 2006, 17:47
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#131
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
i have to say that the risk of getting caught isn't really a deterrent to me trying illegal drugs.
I don't because I don't feel i need to. If I felt like it then I would without worrying about the legal consequences.
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4 Apr 2006, 17:51
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#132
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
ok: i get off on the risk; it adds to the buzz.
ffs yahwe, have you any stats for the number of people who were arrested in clubs last year when buying pills off a dealer? i encounter risk from the moment i wake up in the morning, there are bigger things to worry about than the rozzers going undercover to bust some guy for dropping one or two pills (dealing is a different matter ofc and i would never do that)
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My argument has been the following:
Part One: It's irrational to justify illegal activity on the basis that you are unlikely to be caught because:
1) Criminal Offences never 'time out' and prosecution can be brought at any time.
2) There is simply no way of assessing the statistical chance of being caught: 'feelings', 'what my mates say' or 'what i vaguely remember from tv' is not a concrete assessment.
Maxim = "every criminal thinks they won't get caught until they do"
Part Two: A cost benefit analysis should be performed before doing anything.
A cost benefit analsis can not include unknown variable. If it does the result of the analysis will be valueless. You therefore can not include in any cost benefit analysis of drug use the vague notion of 'risk of conviction'.
In re taking drugs (class A) the cost benefit anyalse should be expressed as followed:
The cost of taking class A drugs is potentially 7 years in prison and an unlimited fine. The benefit needs to outweigh this.
[I decided to try another line of argument this time. Few of you seemed able to understand the intrinsic nature of an obligation to obey the law when living in a democratic society.]
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4 Apr 2006, 17:51
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#133
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Ajaj Kapten!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 638
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Yeah, heavy stonage is just as bad as heavy drinkage. You end up completly ****ed up and weird either way.. and it ain't enjoyable.
Light stonage, followed by light drinkage is my utter favourite.
Smoking after drinking any alchol doesn't work though
... and the penalties for narcotics combined with the prices here in Norway makes me stay away bloody country!
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Pot is more expensive than alcohol in Norway?
In Sweden you get high for about...50 SEK, maybe less. It takes about twice, or even thrice that sum to get someone drunk.
__________________
Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
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4 Apr 2006, 17:52
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#134
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
i have to say
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I understand. I shall not blame you for your idiotic typing as you have raised the defence of duress.
(shall I ring 999? or are you negotiating?)
__________________
hi
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4 Apr 2006, 17:53
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#135
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
No, I let him go after he made the post.
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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4 Apr 2006, 18:08
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#136
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
I did some negotiation skills today
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4 Apr 2006, 18:09
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#137
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Damn Dog
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
[I decided to try another line of argument this time. Few of you seemed able to understand the intrinsic nature of an obligation to obey the law when living in a democratic society.]
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the problem with that argument is that i do not recognise this as a democratic society - the government is totally unrepresentative of the way people actually vote (also other arguments for it not being democratic but i am not here to have a debate on the finer points of the british political system)
also, your rationality argument is crap. you never do anything irrational? sounds ****ing boring to me. (i am not accepting the premise that taking drugs is irrational)
__________________
"that's a stupid thing to say and you're a stupid person for saying it."
the tolling gang
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4 Apr 2006, 19:03
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#138
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
A cost benefit analsis can not include unknown variable.
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And as I have said, almost every single cost benefit analysis contains unknown variables.
Our level of understanding is simply not good enough on most subjects to correctly caclulate anything like that. Foriegn travel as I mentioned earlier is a suitable example. What is the exact probability of risk of dying if I travel to South Africa and go on a Safari (for instance)? Sure, I could look at death rates of travellers vs amount of visitors in the past but that would be just as unreliable as convictions vs user stats.
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4 Apr 2006, 19:15
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#139
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Yeah but if you go to the sahara you'll be living in close proximity to black people dante.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2006, 19:44
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#140
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
He lives in London
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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4 Apr 2006, 19:56
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#141
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
so what do you consider the correct perception of reality to be?
either our knowledge is gained through experience and is therefore relative... or it's innate, in which case how does a chemical reaction in your brain manage to override it?*
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'Correct' is a silly word to use here. I'm not making a value-judgement. I'm just pointing out that reality is an absolute, that no matter what drugs you take, you still live on the Planet Earth in the year 2006 and are still the son of Mr and Mrs Horn.
I'm not sure how you managed to deviate into a discussion of 'gaining knowledge', and I'm not sure of the sense in which gaining knowledge through experience is relative? Relative to each individual's circumstances certainly, but an action will always be related with a consequence - this relationship is constant. I would say morality is founded upon this constancy. Knowledge is an altogether different thing.
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aside form that (which is an argument i can only think relative to hallucinogenics), with respects to ecstacy, the drug i think jj was refering to (seeing as most of the posts so far have been about e), it affects chemicals that we already have frequently fluxuating levels of. Why is it that our current level is deemed "correct"?
I personally think it's a shit level.
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Unless you are proposing that it is possible to get drunk without drinking, I'd suggest this was quite silly.
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a mask of what exactly?
i can only talk for myself. yes, i am dissatisfied with myself, yes i use drugs to feel good, no i don't know how else to feel good, yes that is a problem, no i have not heard any useful suggestions from people like you (this is not an aggressive tone of voice i'm using btw, it's just i have met a fair few people who hold similar views) on how else to feel good.
I guess you could say wanting to feel good is selfish, but then so would wanting to feel good without drugs, which seems to be what you're implying i/we should be aiming for.
as a temporary ego-inflator, yes a lot of drugs tend to have that (desirable) affect. I would also argue that it has increased my ego/confidance in the long run (details available on request). Again i'm not sure why this is a bad thing.
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I would suggest that you turn to Jesus blah blah, but the internet is a supremely inadequate place to evangelise. Frankly, I didn't think you'd welcome bible-bashing, either.
I did not wish to imply that it is selfish to feel good. I don't think it's a good thing to lurch around depressively. To be 'concerned cheifly or only with oneself', above all others, is selfish.
It would be banal to suggest that drugs are the root of all evil, or that they do not have any good side effects. I am happy that drugs have made you a more confident person, though I'm not so sure what is inherently good about confidence.
Last edited by Boogster; 4 Apr 2006 at 20:01.
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4 Apr 2006, 20:07
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#142
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
'Correct' is a silly word to use here. I'm not making a value-judgement. I'm just pointing out that reality is an absolute, that no matter what drugs you take, you still live on the Planet Earth in the year 2006 and are still the son of Mr and Mrs Horn.
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No-one suggested otherwise. You're talking about objective reality, he's talking about perception. They're different things. You could probably alter your eyes to see a slightly different range of the spectrum which certainly wouldn't alter the physical properties of objects you see, but would affect your perception.
No-one is saying that drugs change the objective reality of the universe, but they do/can change the way you see things. As can many things. I'm sure we've all awoken in the morning after a good nights sleep to see that the problem we had the night before, although being the same (in objective terms), is not quite as bad as we first perceived.
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4 Apr 2006, 20:16
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#143
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No-one suggested otherwise. You're talking about objective reality, he's talking about perception. They're different things. You could probably alter your eyes to see a slightly different range of the spectrum which certainly wouldn't alter the physical properties of objects you see, but would affect your perception.
No-one is saying that drugs change the objective reality of the universe, but they do/can change the way you see things. As can many things. I'm sure we've all awoken in the morning after a good nights sleep to see that the problem we had the night before, although being the same (in objective terms), is not quite as bad as we first perceived.
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I was originally making the point that objective reality exists despite our perceptions. No matter your perception of it, your problem remains the same on waking up as it was the night before. Our perception of reality should not cloud the fact that an objective reality exists. Perceptions only matter insofar as they affect our relationship with objective reality, and this relationship is always arbitrated by reality itself.
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4 Apr 2006, 20:28
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#144
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Reality is only useful to you through your experience of it, if you experience it differently then reality is different.
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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4 Apr 2006, 20:33
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#145
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Reality is only useful to you through your experience of it, if you experience it differently then reality is different.
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'Useful' in this sense is a horribly clinical word.
In any case, wouldn't this only be true of a world with nothing in it but me?
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4 Apr 2006, 20:39
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#146
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
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Originally Posted by Boogster
'Useful' in this sense is a horribly clinical word.
In any case, wouldn't this only be true of a world with nothing in it but me?
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Well, what can you tell me about the world? About anything? Only what you have experienced or learnt (through your experiences). The world is nothing else. Everything you have been exposed to, and everything you expose to others through your actions (lol) is put through your consciousness first. Change your consciousness, and you change the world, effectively. Although not actually, unless you DO believe in solipsism, which as far as I'm aware most people don't.
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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4 Apr 2006, 20:51
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#147
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Just because you can't prove it's there doesn't mean anyone gives a shit about your opinion.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2006, 20:54
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#148
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Well, what can you tell me about the world? About anything? Only what you have experienced or learnt (through your experiences). The world is nothing else. Everything you have been exposed to, and everything you expose to others through your actions (lol) is put through your consciousness first. Change your consciousness, and you change the world, effectively. Although not actually, unless you DO believe in solipsism, which as far as I'm aware most people don't.
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Change your consciousness and you have changed nothing in 'the world' (read: 'reality'): only your perception of it.
My point is that the world exists despite of and independent of my reaction/relationship to it, and my consciousness of it. It cannot be changed.
This really doesn't have much bearing on the whole drug thing though. We've got a bit sidetracked.
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4 Apr 2006, 20:58
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#149
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Change your consciousness and you have changed nothing in 'the world' (read: 'reality'): only your perception of it.
My point is that the world exists despite of and independent of my reaction/relationship to it, and my consciousness of it. It cannot be changed.
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You mean the tub where your brain lives? Mine is full of bubbles :)))
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2006, 20:59
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#150
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Alcohol or Pot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Change your consciousness and you have changed nothing in 'the world' (read: 'reality'): only your perception of it.
My point is that the world exists despite of and independent of my reaction/relationship to it, and my consciousness of it. It cannot be changed.
This really doesn't have much bearing on the whole drug thing though. We've got a bit sidetracked.
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Yes, but if it goes back to drugs I can't allow myself to post.
My point was that the existence of the world only really matters insofar as you experience it. But this isn't going anywhere I fear.
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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