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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:07   #1
Seth Mace
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Question The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

I make this post with no hidden agenda but with a genuine attempt to raise some of the feelings & concerns debated throughout this round by myself & those around me. I'm sure this will end up being a huge flame but thats never stopped me from posting my opinions before so.... ;P

The Lion

Lets rewind 6-8 weeks, at a point in the round when the EX block & 1up block were pretty evenly balanced and those alliances not directly involved (HR, Wp, Angels ect)*, either took to their own agendas or tried to help maintain the balance to the block war and in turn keep the Universe a safer place for all.



As ofc, if either block owned the other, it would signal death for the rest. Nos at this point were very much the Lion in hiding, NOBODY expected them to finish where they have, they surprised everyone and achieved a universe ranking that wont be forgotten.

They played very risky politics but due to the political climate, bluffed their way through the round and managed to side-step major incomings for the majority of the round.


The Witch

Then for whatever reason, Nos decided to nap with EX.... Ok lets stop here & just repeat this so everybody is clear. Nos (yes, thats right, Nos who were allied in the 1up-ND-Sin-ToF block) napped the enemy block.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing their HC's reasoning for backstabbing their allies?


The Secret-Wars

Now my post is certainly biased & probably sounding bitter to some, as the reason they napped the "enemy" was so they could start targetting HR. Unfortunately for HR, that same week Angels began their public "Angels vs HR - man on man" war.

Suspicious circumstance or not, from a universal point of view, this event laid EX's path to glory and i hope they are laughing their arses off at their opposition because they played certain alliances for fools - congrats eX.

Nos correctly assumed 1up/ND would be too worried about pushing them totally towards the EX block, they gambled 1up/ND wouldnt f##k Nos over even because of their trechery and alongside a multitude of other naps/ ceasefires throughout the round, were able to comfortably sail up the ranks.

(hehe, was there ANY alliance that didnt hold a temp ceasefire with Nos this round? Christ even HR did for 3days near the end, although we intentionally ignore it after then \o/ )

By napping EX, they effectively sided with the EX block (although their poor comrades who they betrayed, wouldn't accept this at first;( ).

The resulting scenario created an EX/ LCH/ Tot vs 1up/ ND/ Sin & Nos (with the odd Tof hits), Angels vs HR (& 3weeks later, vs WP/ Vgn). This of course is just the overall picture from my pov and HR was bashed out of this picture, leaving WP without its closest ally (leaving them for easier pickings later on) and ensuring 1up/ ND/ Sin to fight alone against a stronger opponent & without anywhere to go for external support.

Im sure some nos will reply with "We Do Not Exist" but i didnt realise this applied to their honor, integrity and ability to fight for a "worthy" cause - that of sticking by your closest allies until the death.

This "slander" is aimed towards NoS HC & NOT it's members btw, so nos peeps, pls dont take offense - i'm not trying to take anything away from your honorable game performance, just ur HC's political loyalty/ honesty/ integrity.

Disclaimer: This is noway an attempt to cover every significant wars relating to the main blocks, this is mainly a thread revolving around Nos and how they sacrificied their allies to ensure victory for EX.

* ignoring any temp agreements such as angels-1up war.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:11   #2
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Hear, hear!
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:25   #3
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

I certainly agree.. i have talked to NoS HC about it, and they claim it was best for their alliance, maybe so, but what i feel ND have done all round, is done what was best for our block, not just play for ourselves..
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:29   #4
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Indeed, NoS played very wisely in terms of politics, so did Angels. Though the real military power of this round belonged to eXilition and as far as I know even 1up begged for a cease fire at one point of this round .. They didn't get it though. I wouldn't say that without NoS on the 1up side they would have beaten our block. We still held the top rankings in terms of planetscore and a high ranking roidwise. NoS knew that if they would play alongside with 1up they would inevitably end up in the lower part of top10, we all know the ranks of SiN and ND before they unified their top planets. That lead to a rather calculated and a clever decision which would insure a high rank in the end. Naturally because of this they don't get much respect from other alliances, for example look at Seth's post, I doubt it was a congratulation on getting a good rank because of witty politics. But I think both "sides" had their own fencesit alliance, 1up had NoS and the eXi block had Angels so both deciding to quit their original goal of attacking the other block and napping it instead paved the road to stability between the blocks. (I doubt I was placed in a buddypack with two angels without a reason.) I would assume that Angels had more military power than NoS, as well, thanks to their command staff which includes Irvine as one of the most active alliance HC in this round alongside with Kaifux from eXilition. In the end it was the military power and co-operation of the eX/LCH/ToT block which secured the victory against 1up and its muppets. After that the round stagnated and all alliances started to go inactive. In my opinion that was a reason why a final Angel vs. eX war would have failed, as both alliances never had the strenght and resources to successfully carry out both attacks and defences.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:31   #5
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace

I'm genuinely interested in hearing their HC's reasoning for backstabbing their allies?
Since NoS HC hadn't responded when I started this reply:

[19/05-05:22:26:54] <Cin[Away]> we only did what 1up did the last 2 rounds...and if we haven't targeted WP they would have won...

[19/05-05:22:27:08] <Cin[Away]> if it hadn't been for us no one could and would have stopped them from winning

Sorry if the logs are not allowed or whatever, but I believe they are relevant to the case in point.

sorry, but these were too many logs, i've cut them down a bit - next time use hosting please - Lok

Last edited by lokken; 9 Jun 2005 at 16:57.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:33   #6
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

FFS, give them more than 20 minutes Gate.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:38   #7
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
FFS, give them more than 20 minutes Gate.
I'm going out in 5 mins and thought I'd save you the effort

But by Cin's admittal, at the time of that log the other HCs were on vacation and maybe he was incorrect about the reasoning. The impression he gave me was that NoS were trying to stop stagnation by bringing down the top alliance of the time; though maybe NoS HC's official stance is something otherwise and that was just his own personal view.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:42   #8
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
The Witch

Then for whatever reason, Nos decided to nap with EX.... Ok lets stop here & just repeat this so everybody is clear. Nos (yes, thats right, Nos who were allied in the 1up-ND-Sin-ToF block) napped the enemy block.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing their HC's reasoning for backstabbing their allies?
I think you need to speak to ND HC, who finally admitted to us that they DID as we claimed to them NAP with HR AND WP PRIOR to NoS even speaking to Exilition.

We had informed ND and 1UP at the start that NoS's intented targets were HR and WP, and yet they were still upset when we announced our intentions NOT to be puppets and continue attacking Exilition and that we were targetting both HR and WP as originally intended.

After we heard that ND and 1UP had NAP'd with HR and WP, we were concerned for the potential to be back stabbed, so THEN approached Exilition and co to NAP so that we couold focus on WP and HR. Silly us for attacking 2 alliances but still considered fence sitters.

As Sethy nearly got right.... "Ok lets stop here & just repeat this so everybody is clear. ND and 1UP (yes, thats right, ND and 1UP who were allied in the 1up-ND-Sin-ToF block) napped the enemy block FIRST.

I am happy to discuss this with you at any time Sethy and can show you logs if that is your desire. BUT, Do NOT sprout utter crap about NoS when you are NOT privy to the facts. I used to think better of you than this.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:56   #9
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

For reference: when did eXi and NoS NAP? Before or after the ND-SiN merger?
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 12:57   #10
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
The Secret-Wars

Now my post is certainly biased & probably sounding bitter to some, as the reason they napped the "enemy" was so they could start targetting HR. Unfortunately for HR, that same week Angels began their public "Angels vs HR - man on man" war.

(hehe, was there ANY alliance that didnt hold a temp ceasefire with Nos this round? Christ even HR did for 3days near the end, although we intentionally ignore it after then \o/ )

The resulting scenario created an EX/ LCH/ Tot vs 1up/ ND/ Sin & Nos (with the odd Tof hits), Angels vs HR (& 3weeks later, vs WP/ Vgn). This of course is just the overall picture from my pov and HR was bashed out of this picture, leaving WP without its closest ally (leaving them for easier pickings later on) and ensuring 1up/ ND/ Sin to fight alone against a stronger opponent & without anywhere to go for external support.

Im sure some nos will reply with "We Do Not Exist" but i didnt realise this applied to their honor, integrity and ability to fight for a "worthy" cause - that of sticking by your closest allies until the death.

This "slander" is aimed towards NoS HC & NOT it's members btw, so nos peeps, pls dont take offense - i'm not trying to take anything away from your honorable game performance, just ur HC's political loyalty/ honesty/ integrity.

Disclaimer: This is noway an attempt to cover every significant wars relating to the main blocks, this is mainly a thread revolving around Nos and how they sacrificied their allies to ensure victory for EX.
Do you want to know why we wanted to hit HR Sethy? Simple. For the 2 rounds I was not playing the game and only doing tech stuff for NoS, I watched HR, that they had NAPs with (Who we once regarded as brothers) time and time again hit NoS and claim it was an accident. I watched HR hit them with no regard for ANY honor what so ever.

The 3 day NAP you talk about, was again a non event, with HR BCs not even aware of it, so yet again, that same lack of honor I have come to expect from HR. It was a cease fire offered to HR from NoS, because you had been bashed down and tbh, I felt sorry for you. Won't make that mistake again.

At NO time did NoS betray the alliance arangements with ND or 1UP, the ONLY thing NoS did, was preserve it's sovereign rights as an independant alliance to select it's OWN targets to hit.

ANYTHING done this round by myself, or any NoS HC, was as always to ensure a fun and successful round for NoS and it's members. I make no appologies for that, and never will. Love me or hate me as you see fit, but if you are NoS, then at least you know your HC will never let you down.

To 1UP and SIN, I thank you guys for being honorable to the end and a pleasure to deal with.

To ND, nothing really to say, except.. where is ColCarp when you need him?

To ToF, good luck for future rounds. If you need help with your arbiter, the offer is still there to assist. Control of your members is your only weakness tbh. (Not meant as a jibe, but as constructive help.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:01   #11
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
For reference: when did eXi and NoS NAP? Before or after the ND-SiN merger?

AFTER

[02:16] <@Heru`away> you guys keep coming back to the fact that we nap'd ex...you guys had a "unofficial" nap in place with wp/hr before we did
[02:16] <@[ND]SteIn|GONE> yes, cause we knew they would fall down anyway

Speak to either of them to verify those statements.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:03   #12
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Your timescale is totally off here m8;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
I think you need to speak to ND HC, who finally admitted to us that they DID as we claimed to them NAP with HR AND WP PRIOR to NoS even speaking to Exilition.
I cant speak for WP but you guys napped eX BEFORE HR arranged the ceasefire. The reason that ceasefire was started in the first place was because eX block were owning and desperate actions needed to be taken.

Quote:
We had informed ND and 1UP at the start that NoS's intented targets were HR and WP, and yet they were still upset when we announced our intentions NOT to be puppets and continue attacking Exilition and that we were targetting both HR and WP as originally intended.
Fair enough, i was well aware you guys still held a grudge from a few rounds past, i'm not surprised you attack HR, im just surprised you knowingly fu#ked your allies over in the process.

Quote:
After we heard that ND and 1UP had NAP'd with HR and WP, we were concerned for the potential to be back stabbed, so THEN approached Exilition and co to NAP so that we couold focus on WP and HR. Silly us for attacking 2 alliances but still considered fence sitters.
Again, your timeframe is mixed up.

Nos Napped eX Before (well before) HR cooped with 1up/nd.

Everyone in the universe knows this, why deny it or try to flip things on its head?

Quote:
I am happy to discuss this with you at any time Sethy and can show you logs if that is your desire. BUT, Do NOT sprout utter crap about NoS when you are NOT privy to the facts. I used to think better of you than this.
I am privy to the facts, more then most people. However it seems your no longer HC? So the question is are you "privy"? Anyways as i said, what i've posted is pretty common knowledge and by your reply, you do confirm my suspicians that eX bluffed you guys with false intell.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:10   #13
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
Do you want to know why we wanted to hit HR Sethy? Simple. For the 2 rounds I was not playing the game and only doing tech stuff for NoS, I watched HR, that they had NAPs with (Who we once regarded as brothers) time and time again hit NoS and claim it was an accident. I watched HR hit them with no regard for ANY honor what so ever.
Lol i KNEW this was your reasoning - god how many times have i had to personally explain to Nos HC/ members over what happened here? I've apologised numerous times, HR was let down by its tech and we shud of ended the nap at day1 instead of live in denial we cud uphold it. There is only so many times i can say this to you guys but it seem's its easy for you to hate & remember, instead of forgive and forget a genuine fook up, with no harm meant towards nos.

Quote:
The 3 day NAP you talk about, was again a non event, with HR BCs not even aware of it, so yet again, that same lack of honor I have come to expect from HR. It was a cease fire offered to HR from NoS, because you had been bashed down and tbh, I felt sorry for you. Won't make that mistake again.
Tbh i personally didnt give a sh1t about nos this round, it felt dirty to even nap you guys for those 3days because you were part of the HR bashing. From our pov, Nos this round had no honor and we had no need to show any in return.

Quote:
At NO time did NoS betray the alliance arangements with ND or 1UP, the ONLY thing NoS did, was preserve it's sovereign rights as an independant alliance to select it's OWN targets to hit.
This is exactly what i mean. You are deluded to think your ex nap was not a betrayal. They are your Allies but you let them get f#cked while you lived the easy life. I'm not questioning what you did was best for Nos - my only question is in regards to betraying your allies.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:14   #14
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
Your timescale is totally off here m8;

I cant speak for WP but you guys napped eX BEFORE HR arranged the ceasefire. The reason that ceasefire was started in the first place was because eX block were owning and desperate actions needed to be taken.

I am privy to the facts, more then most people. However it seems your no longer HC? So the question is are you "privy"? Anyways as i said, what i've posted is pretty common knowledge and by your reply, you do confirm my suspicians that eX bluffed you guys with false intell.
Me not HC any more? Boy does your intel suck or what? No wonder you have no clue.

Sorry to correct you again, but since we were up front to ND and 1UP from the very start as to who we wanted to attack, we did not "knowingly fu#ked your allies over" as you say. We simply did what we said we would do.

As for timing. I think ND admitting to us that they did it first is pretty good proof to me, since we advised them of our change of targets and they knew they had already napped WP and I assume HR. They are the only one that knows the timing of both since we were honest telling them who we were targetting. BECAUSE they had the secret NAP with WP and HR, our decision THEN became an issue to them. Because we were starting to attack an alliance they had NAP'd but had not told us about.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:15   #15
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
ANYTHING done this round by myself, or any NoS HC, was as always to ensure a fun and successful round for NoS and it's members. I make no appologies for that, and never will. Love me or hate me as you see fit, but if you are NoS, then at least you know your HC will never let you down.
Personally I'd rather fight against the dominant alliance and play a good war game than finish moderately high up the rankings without testing the full abilities of my alliance. Priorities differ for many people though.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:18   #16
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

So our hitting WP when it was rank #1 and HR when it was rank #3 or #4 isn't good enough?
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:21   #17
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
Me not HC any more? Boy does your intel suck or what? No wonder you have no clue.
I asked that over the wording of your post before, anyways...

Quote:
Sorry to correct you again, but since we were up front to ND and 1UP from the very start as to who we wanted to attack, we did not "knowingly fu#ked your allies over" as you say. We simply did what we said we would do.
Ill explain to you why you knowingly f#cked your allies over.

Ex block were owning your allies but you carried on hitting hr/wp while they got raped. You did nothing, you stood by an watched.

Can you see where im coming from here?

EVERYONE knows Nos abandoned their allies, everyone but Nos HC.

Quote:
As for timing. I think ND admitting to us that they did it first is pretty good proof to me, since we advised them of our change of targets and they knew they had already napped WP and I assume HR. They are the only one that knows the timing of both since we were honest telling them who we were targetting. BECAUSE they had the secret NAP with WP and HR, our decision THEN became an issue to them. Because we were starting to attack an alliance they had NAP'd but had not told us about.
I think you guys have taken a piece of info and made an epic story out of it.

I knew from early on 1up/nd ect werent targetting HR - Why? Why do you think ffs? Because they were at war with Ex block.

1up & co rightly assumed, that if they keep hitting hr/wp ect planets, they only give those allies more reason to hit their block back. Ex block on the other hand were roiding where they wanted.

HR had NO arrangement back to 1up block at this point and not until 4 weeks AFTER nos napping eX (when the situation had become dire), did HR formally being cooping with 1up block. I dont know what SteinMetz is talking about in your log or WHEN he made that comment but he didnt seem an active HC anyway so im unsure on how relative his comments where?
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:24   #18
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
So our hitting WP when it was rank #1 and HR when it was rank #3 or #4 isn't good enough?
Not necessarily no. Rankings can be misleading. As hydra's various members would be only too glad to tell you wolfpack wasn't that active. The amount of military power they could field at any one time was less than exilition. The fact those alliances weren't as heavily targetted as, let's say, 1up gave a false impression of relative strength. Obviously part of the reason Ex were so strong was your alliance's targetting but I doubt the reverse scenario of ex being brought down to either sixth or ninth and HR/WP winning the round decisively is a feasible one.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:28   #19
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Sethy,

I want to know HOW could the 1up/ND/ToF/SIN/NoS block be created to fight a war with the Exil block when Exilition afaik did NOT exist prior to the round starting.

As I have said numerous times for you, and will yet again. NoS told 1UP and ND PRIOR to the round starting that we wanted WP and HR as our targets since we had grudges to take care of.

Please explain to me, HOW we abandoned our allies in a war that was NOT part of our original and STATED agenda?
Please explain to me HOW NoS is at fault for being TRUE to it's original intentions.

Please, just admit sour grapes so we can all move on.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:34   #20
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
Sethy,

I want to know HOW could the 1up/ND/ToF/SIN/NoS block be created to fight a war with the Exil block when Exilition afaik did NOT exist prior to the round starting.

As I have said numerous times for you, and will yet again. NoS told 1UP and ND PRIOR to the round starting that we wanted WP and HR as our targets since we had grudges to take care of.

Please explain to me, HOW we abandoned our allies in a war that was NOT part of our original and STATED agenda?
Please explain to me HOW NoS is at fault for being TRUE to it's original intentions.

Please, just admit sour grapes so we can all move on.
Many allies were surprised of how politics ended up but many allies were able to adjust & change policy accordingly.

What your saying is Nos basically closed their eyes, carried on with their obsolete tactics and hoped for the best. Fluid politics is a phrase that comes to mind here.

If you want an example of this, look at HR & ND - not exactly allies in love with each other right? yet both could see the bigger picture, that eX block would bash the uni if they were left alone.

Any your laughable sour grapes comment to me, well lol "sour grapes" is what Nos'ers r13 Politics was based on.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:40   #21
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

alliances have their own agenda, and pursue them to the fullest as and when necessary. This is a fact of pa life and has been going on since time immemorial (2000, lol) - people must face up to the fact that classic NoS style politics and 1up sphere type politics do not mix, and ND are horrifically (yet again) stuck in the middle of all this.

alliances aren't going to bend over backwards for each other if it results in their doom. I'd certainly say that if you were allies, exilition was certainly a more pressing need than HR, but then that's my personal opinion if you really are allies looking to defeat a common enemy and going , if you're just NAP'd then it's a different story and alliances should do what they like.

Seriously, all of you should all shut up and save the effort, just face up to the facts you were hardly ever allies to each other in the first place this round and move on. Next round we all start from score zero, and people can sort things out on the battlefield if necessary. Personally I don't think it's worth the effort though over something which in the end is quite minor and playing your own game is far more important.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:44   #22
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
Many allies were surprised of how politics ended up but many allies were able to adjust & change policy accordingly.

What your saying is Nos basically closed their eyes, carried on with their obsolete tactics and hoped for the best. Fluid politics is a phrase that comes to mind here.

Make up your mind will you. 1 minute you say we NAP'd the universe, the next minute we are stuck in our ways with obsolete tactics?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
If you want an example of this, look at HR & ND - not exactly allies in love with each other right? yet both could see the bigger picture, that eX block would bash the uni if they were left alone.

What bigger picture?

Does HR play PA for HR? Or does HR play PA to suit other alliance's objectives? Ahh, silly me. Now I see the strings on your arms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
Any your laughable sour grapes comment to me, well lol "sour grapes" is what Nos'ers r13 Politics was based on.

Hmm, I thought it was just pay back. At least we had the integrity NOT to have to whine about it here. We just took care of it ourselves on the battle field.

Sure sounds like sour grapes to me Sethy. Add a little sugar and see if it helps sweeten you up.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:46   #23
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
..and playing your own game is far more important.
Agreed. Politics in a war-game is supposed to be "selfish" and should suit your alliance need, not your 'allies' need. Every alliance plays for itself, not for another.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:52   #24
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Make up your mind will you. 1 minute you say we NAP'd the universe, the next minute we are stuck in our ways with obsolete tactics?
You did nap the uni and you were stuck in your ways because you executed plans that were made BEFORE the eX block appeared <- can you understand how this is obsolete?


Aha anyway, this has already sidetracked from the core point of my post, that of Nos letting their allies die so they could rise the ranks.

PA is about a lot of things, honor and loyalty are elements which Nos's politics lacked this round and unfortunately, this may possibly backfire for your R14.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 13:59   #25
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Silly me again. I forgot that an alliance is not allowed to pursue it's own agenda and must submit control to the hive mind and only attack where told to.

Or is that just how HR works?

We at NoS have our own mind and prefer to enjoy ourselves. Staying loyal to our allies does NOT require us to be clones and ONLY attack where they want to. We at NO time instructed 1UP, ND, SIN or ToF to hit HR or WP. Nor did we expect them to. Does that mean they f**ked us over too? According to your rules, they did.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:02   #26
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

It should be stated also, that NoS members were always willing to defend 1UP, ND, SIN and ToF in gal against Exil and co. But it's convenient to forget that and say we abandoned them for Exilition. Exilition were always informed that we would NOT ask a member to recall defence from our allies.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:03   #27
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
We at NoS have our own mind and prefer to enjoy ourselves. Staying loyal to our allies does NOT require us to be clones and ONLY attack where they want to. We at NO time instructed 1UP, ND, SIN or ToF to hit HR or WP. Nor did we expect them to. Does that mean they f**ked us over too? According to your rules, they did.
There is a difference, Nos were not dieing.

Pld to Nos for Sacrificing their allies for No.3 \o/
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:08   #28
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
Make up your mind will you. 1 minute you say we NAP'd the universe, the next minute we are stuck in our ways with obsolete tactics?

What bigger picture?
I wouldn't call his tactics obsolete, but his style of play is certainly different to yours. I'm sure you look at your alliance and realise it can't compete militarily with the top alliances, and decide that the only way to compete is to pursue your totally selfish policies to ensure you maximise ranking for your alliance, and you'll stab anyone in the back to do it (to the extent you can get away with it). This is a completely reasonable approach to play the game.

Other alliances have chosen to fight and have some form of choice in the game, they wish to empower themselves, rank at times is irrelevant to them, they wish to fight. Some might foolishly portray it as honour, I just call it wanting to get stuck into a scrap, cos fighting is what this game is all about, it being a war game and that.

The finest alliances combine both of those aspects.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:16   #29
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

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Originally Posted by lokken
The finest alliances combine both of those aspects.
We did exactly that. The thing is.. we attacked who WE wanted to and NOT who we were told to. Sethy is just bitter that one of those targets was HR and his response is to slander NoS. But that couldn't possibly be sour grapes. It's all my imagination.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:23   #30
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
We did exactly that. The thing is.. we attacked who WE wanted to and NOT who we were told to. Sethy is just bitter that one of those targets was HR and his response is to slander NoS. But that couldn't possibly be sour grapes. It's all my imagination.
You are being totally two faced here, you are pointing your fingures at me for being "sour" when (as ive said before), Nos's r13 tactic was fueled by blind bitterness towards HR.

It would be nice to hear what 1up/ ND HC think of this situation though, maybe they can better highlight Nos's betrayal.

As ofc Nos think they were good allies (lol).
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:26   #31
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

U still cant write NoS I see..
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:28   #32
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
We did exactly that. The thing is.. we attacked who WE wanted to and NOT who we were told to. Sethy is just bitter that one of those targets was HR and his response is to slander NoS. But that couldn't possibly be sour grapes. It's all my imagination.
I'd hardly call HR ambition, had it been someone like LCH i'd say what i said would have applied. HR is hardly the biggest fight of the century this round to be honest looking at their ranking. I'd hardly call NoS a 'fighting alliance' for that. You've got still a way to go to fill the second criteria.

But hey, looking at NoS recent performances, you've played a decent round, well done for that. People need to learn that NoS will always play in a certain way, however shit we think it all is - they've been doing it for years, if you can't think anything cynical politically about NoS you haven't been thinking hard enough or paying attention.

I'd look at ND's performance in r12, and say that was a far better example of what i'm talking about, considering how many people they dicked off to get there, they might even have won at one stage and were killing things all over the shop.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:28   #33
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
You are being totally two faced here, you are pointing your fingures at me for being "sour" when (as ive said before), Nos's r13 tactic was fueled by blind bitterness towards HR.

How you figure that? We had a grudge, we acted on it ON the battle field where it belongs. You instead just want to whine here and slander us. Slight difference.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:30   #34
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
As ofc Nos think they were good allies (lol).
whooosh

classic example of not paying attention here.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:32   #35
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I'd hardly call HR ambition, had it been someone like LCH i'd say what i said would have applied. HR is hardly the biggest fight of the century this round to be honest looking at their ranking. I'd hardly call NoS a 'fighting alliance' for that. You've got still a way to go to fill the second criteria.

So the fact that HR were rank #3 when we started hitting them means nothing? It's not our fault they fell apart and members left them after we hit them. They were a high ranking target when we started and we were hitting both them and WP was rank #1.

You can't look at where they finished only. As Sethy likes to say: You have to look at "the bigger picture".
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:34   #36
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by helikopter
even 1up begged for a cease fire at one point of this round ..
This is news to me. I think you are living in a fantasy world.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:39   #37
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

fair enough, I haven't been on the ball as exams have been on.

Even so, one could easily point out in the grand scheme of things HR aren't exactly high up the ladder, but i sense you've been ultra conservative/careful this round (it paid off for you and Angels), but to say you combined both aspects (i believe) is pushing it a little.

my associate JBG now details in a general manner:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Not necessarily no. Rankings can be misleading. As hydra's various members would be only too glad to tell you wolfpack wasn't that active. The amount of military power they could field at any one time was less than exilition. The fact those alliances weren't as heavily targetted as, let's say, 1up gave a false impression of relative strength. Obviously part of the reason Ex were so strong was your alliance's targetting but I doubt the reverse scenario of ex being brought down to either sixth or ninth and HR/WP winning the round decisively is a feasible one.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:44   #38
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
It's not our fault they fell apart and members left them after we hit them.

*snip*

You can't look at where they finished only. As Sethy likes to say: You have to look at "the bigger picture".
I would phrase it as "it was not JUST our fault". The bigger picture was that which ever block won, would go on to win the round. THATS the bigger picture. You helped the enemy block of your allies by napping eX & hitting hr/wp.

It was not 1 ally that took HR down, is was at least 2 at the same time, mostly & consistantly for 3 weeks - this was alongside incomingings from the eX block.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:47   #39
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Lokken, I would like to see WHY Hydra left WP. One of my guesses would be that they got to little defence. NoS were hitting WP and also Hydra, so lets just theorize that Hydra left because of NoS was one of the alliances hitting WP.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 14:58   #40
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
I dont know what SteinMetz is talking about in your log or WHEN he made that comment but he didnt seem an active HC anyway so im unsure on how relative his comments where?
We were talking about why it ended up like this, and NoS claimed that they did the best for their allie, and i said we didnt target you, cause we knew you would fall down if we would have targetted you..
IMO i think WP would have fallen down pretty quickly if 4 big alliances started to target them..

Im pretty much sure most people can confirm that.. no offence, but i dont see HR or WP as a winning alliance..

Edit: That convo took place 2 days before end of round.. if someone wondered.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:00   #41
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo
I think you need to speak to ND HC, who finally admitted to us that they DID as we claimed to them NAP with HR AND WP PRIOR to NoS even speaking to Exilition.

We had informed ND and 1UP at the start that NoS's intented targets were HR and WP, and yet they were still upset when we announced our intentions NOT to be puppets and continue attacking Exilition and that we were targetting both HR and WP as originally intended.

After we heard that ND and 1UP had NAP'd with HR and WP, we were concerned for the potential to be back stabbed, so THEN approached Exilition and co to NAP so that we couold focus on WP and HR. Silly us for attacking 2 alliances but still considered fence sitters.

As Sethy nearly got right.... "Ok lets stop here & just repeat this so everybody is clear. ND and 1UP (yes, thats right, ND and 1UP who were allied in the 1up-ND-Sin-ToF block) napped the enemy block FIRST.

I am happy to discuss this with you at any time Sethy and can show you logs if that is your desire. BUT, Do NOT sprout utter crap about NoS when you are NOT privy to the facts. I used to think better of you than this.
I am curious to know when you think we NAP'd WP//HR. I think you have some dodgy intel. Oh, by the way, I was just reading through logs from HC channel this round, I found what has to be the quote of the round:

<@Dingo> I don't like fence sitters either

Had me in hysterics.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:01   #42
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

I was using it to theorise a general point about stature and ranking, nothing else.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:04   #43
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
IMO i think WP would have fallen down pretty quickly if 4 big alliances started to target them..

Im pretty much sure most people can confirm that.. no offence, but i dont see HR or WP as a winning alliance..
Most allies would have fallen down if 4 targetted them, especially as defence was that more difficult this round.

In regards to HR & WP as a winning ally, ND aint either, neither are Nos, lch, wp, ect. Only eX & 1up could realistically be called such an alliance based on this round & the previous.
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R4: [HR]
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:07   #44
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
Most allies would have fallen down if 4 targetted them, especially as defence was that more difficult this round.

In regards to HR & WP as a winning ally, ND aint either, neither are Nos, lch, wp, ect. Only eX & 1up could realistically be called such an alliance based on this round & the previous.
True, but thats why we kept focused on eX block all round..
While NoS did their own things, and basicly i think NoS would have been the key to sucess.. another allie fighting the block at a pretty early stage, would have been much more to handle..
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:16   #45
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

NoS played it selfish and smart and Dingo has been known to NAP anything with a heartbeat.

Other than that I think by playing it this way they secured a 3rd rank, not bad at all especially if you realise that they'd easily lose a ware to many (if not all) of the t10 alliances head on.

Btw, Seth, if you wanted 1up/ND to defeat Exil so bad, maybe you should have hit 1up a bit less. I can see you are pissed HR strategy backfired on you but as you might remember I spoke to you somewhere halfway the round about the constant HR incomings to my (1up) planet and how gay I felt that was of HR. I don't know what rank your alliance managed in the end but I bet you deserved it.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:26   #46
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

one of the reasons i left Howling Rain back then was,
that SethMace always ****s up his alliance politics.

I dont want to play in an alliance which is war with everyone and loses it.
I want to play to have fun.

So Props to all the alliances (pack, angels, maybe including nos?) who knew how to jump between the frontiers, because those are the alliances in which the usual player has fun while playing the game.

yours faithfully
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:41   #47
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

ND/SiNND entered a military cooperation with WP/HR LONG after the nos / exi nap occurred. furthermore, we never had a formal agreement with HR, only a gentlemans agreement to steer clear of each other so that we could effectively target the LCHeat block without our DC's having to fade heat from more incomings than neccesary. We did NAP WP with a short amount of time left, but the NAP between nos/exi ALREADY existed

Don't try to sell it as anything but that, because it just ain't so.

I personally argued on many occasions with fellow HC members and Officers to stand by our agreement with nos on many occasions. Not because I didn't feel betrayed, and yes, that exactly what I personally felt.... but because I had hope to preserve our political integrity, and because were we to attempt to "punish" nos for their political tap dancing, it could have resulted in more incomings, and at the time I didn't see that as a workable solution.

After many discussions, I can safely say that our Members and Officers most certainly did feel betrayed. WP/HR were not a factor the win the round late, and nos continued their NAP with EXI when their targeting "preference" change could have had an effect on the outcome of the round. IF nos had cancelled their NAP with Exi at that point, in my eyes they would have redeemed themselves politically...they chose not to.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:46   #48
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

aNgRyDuCk is it so hard to see what your own fellow HC member have said that you deny the truth?


Quote:
[02:16] <@Heru`away> you guys keep coming back to the fact that we nap'd ex...you guys had a "unofficial" nap in place with wp/hr before we did
[02:16] <@[ND]SteIn|GONE> yes, cause we knew they would fall down anyway
So stop lying please. I've lost enough faith in ND as it is
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:52   #49
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
aNgRyDuCk is it so hard to see what your own fellow HC member have said that you deny the truth?




So stop lying please. I've lost enough faith of ND as it is

SteInMetz is mistaken, if he in fact said that, ofcoarse I wasn't involved in that conversation, so I have no basis to form an opinion. I can say that when Spritfire, Sid and I spoke to WP about a NAP, the Exi/nos nap already existed for quite some time. We never had a meeting or anything else with HR, I'm sure Sethy will verify that, we just all showed up in a channel one day with the intention of attacking LCHeat. Don't have to take my word for it, I'm sure 1up/HR/WP HC can also shed some light on the time frame.

Oh and as a side note, ND/SiNND/1up never begged Exi for any treaty's. We had a 10 minute meeting, arranged by LCH and us, where we briefly discussed options, and LCH stood by their guns as far as the idea that Exi/ToT would have to be included in any arrangement. We saw no light at the end of that tunnel, and therefore the discussion went nowhere fast as we had no intention of not attacking Exi.
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Unread 9 Jun 2005, 15:54   #50
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Re: The Lion, The Witch & The Secret-Wars

SteInMetz wasn'tt SiNND HC, and the NAP was only in effect after the formation of SiNND (Not directly after, there was atleast a week).
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