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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 21:59   #251
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Re: Stats Round 27

Since most people seem to agree that these stats are fairly good, can we expect only minor changes for next rnd or will there be a new set developed?
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 01:36   #252
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Re: Stats Round 27

I'm for a new set with Cath having either a FR or DE, Etd having either a Fi or Co (the same way Xan have 1 CR).
These stats have made 2 rounds, it's not a matter of being good or not, it's just we need enough changes not to play the same round again.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 08:50   #253
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Re: Stats Round 27

there seems to me to be little point in giving cat a fr class ship, or etd a fi/co class ship that will probably have its job done equally well by ships that are more compatible with the rest of the fleet - not many ppl seem to use the peacekeepr for xans despite it being a pretty good ship as there is no point in providing more classes of ship for your attackers to target.

unless you are talking about switching the cat co roiding fleet for an fr one and the etd roiding fleet for a co one?
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 09:27   #254
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Re: Stats Round 27

I dont see the big problem in havin the cat emp bs->cr\bs ship made into a fr->cr\bs(or bs\cr) and reducing its efficiency a little.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 10:57   #255
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
I'm for a new set with Cath having either a FR or DE, Etd having either a Fi or Co (the same way Xan have 1 CR).
Do you have any reasoning for this or are you just writing down the first thing you can think of? I'm assuming it's the latter, in which case I would like to ask you to stop posting.

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These stats have made 2 rounds, it's not a matter of being good or not, it's just we need enough changes not to play the same round again.
"Ok."
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 11:14   #256
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Re: Stats Round 27

Stats were alot better this round than last round.
I do hope some changes are made though, changes which have been pointed out before, and maybe some other to spice things up a bit

have to admit I d love to play with same set with 50% going xan and me having tons of sairs again <3
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 11:53   #257
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Re: Stats Round 27

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have to admit I d love to play with same set with 50% going xan and me having tons of sairs again <3
That's a pretty good point.

Most ziks seemed to steal a chunk of shadows. Which makes them effectively immune to random xand attackers and allowing a lot of ziks to grow easily.

With very few CR etds and relatively few bigger terran players, zik seemed to have it easyish.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 12:46   #258
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
That's a pretty good point.

Most ziks seemed to steal a chunk of shadows. Which makes them effectively immune to random xand attackers and allowing a lot of ziks to grow easily.

With very few CR etds and relatively few bigger terran players, zik seemed to have it easyish.
I never stole any xan de, yet I loved geting fr/de incs because the corsair is fking imba together with a nice fleet of Harpies. ( thanks pommeh and linkie <3 )
Sadly they all recalled
Ziks do very well in an xan heavy universe. defencively and offencively.

I never found etd cr to be a problem, only problem was when they teamed with terrans, but then again terrans were just as hard to stop on their own.

overall, its zik again - as always -
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:40   #259
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Re: Stats Round 27

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I never found etd cr to be a problem, only problem was when they teamed with terrans, but then again terrans were just as hard to stop on their own.
CR etds found it pretty easy to hit zik. But it was laughably easy to hit caths and we could also hit tasty xands and FR etds so it really diluted the incs ziks got. I'm not sure there was a single zik I couldn't hit single handed and make a tasty profit from, there was just an overabundance of potential bombers!

Overall my current suggestions would be:
Phoenix: target FI/CO -> CO/FI

Spider: class FI->DE & A/C 428->500~
Beetle: class CO->FR, init 1->2
Viper: class CO->FR
Black Widow: class BS->FR, init 11->7, target CR/BS->BS, A/C 384->500~
Scorpion: target DE->DE/CR, A/C 350->500~
Mosquito: class CO->FR

Bomber: E/R 70->65
Shadow: armour 16->17

Corsair: dmg 15->14 OR armour 13->12, E/R 57->52

Defender: class FR->CO, Init 2->1
Recluse: class FR->CO
Hysperian Lancer: REMOVED
Vsharrak Destroyer: class DE->FI
Vulture: class FR->CO
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 17:18   #260
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Re: Stats Round 27

Well at first glance those changes would change things a bit atleast. I really wouldnt mind seeing Terran back with DE pods tho.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 18:03   #261
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Well at first glance those changes would change things a bit atleast. I really wouldnt mind seeing Terran back with DE pods tho.
I played around with that.

I gave terrans DE and xand FR. It was something new and it made terran look a little tastier. But it created some serious balance issues, particularly the nerfing of CR. Playing about with bomber class didn't really help either.

Ways around this would be to mess a bit further (eg... give xands a CR fleet and etds a DE, then try to rebalance zik BS!?), or just transfer terran to DE and have 3 DE fleets.

Tbh, I couldn't be bothered to continue down that path without a particularly compelling reason. I'd welcome someone else trying though.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 18:43   #262
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Re: Stats Round 27

I just feel the Terran FR is a bit shit now so Ill settle for them being less shit rather than them having DE then
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 21:12   #263
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Re: Stats Round 27

I've always been a fan of the Ter DE fleet, but judging from Gate's post that change would pretty much mess up everything, so I'd say keep it as is.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 09:10   #264
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Re: Stats Round 27

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I've always been a fan of the Ter DE fleet, but judging from Gate's post that change would pretty much mess up everything, so I'd say keep it as is.
I'm sure someone else's insight could find a way around the mess. I might try it later with ziks/xands having FR and ter/cath having DE.

If you didn't mind having 1 FR and 3 DE fleets, you could just make the centaur a DE, rename it to 'Pegasus' and change its targets from FR/CO/FI -> FI/CO/FR.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 09:38   #265
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
I'm sure someone else's insight could find a way around the mess. I might try it later with ziks/xands having FR and ter/cath having DE.

If you didn't mind having 1 FR and 3 DE fleets, you could just make the centaur a DE, rename it to 'Pegasus' and change its targets from FR/CO/FI -> FI/CO/FR.
terrans would walk over ziks.

Caths would have a harder time roiding them with co.

Terrans would own etd CR/BS guys, while having a harder time vs etd FR.

Terrans would be harder to roid overall, CO/DE/CR.

To me this change will make the terran too strong. Atleast if they aint downpowered on other shit.

might be selfcentred as a zik saying this though but they really, really will walk over ziks
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 09:43   #266
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Re: Stats Round 27

not having a killship partner would make a cathaar or etd fr fleet very easy to stop most of the time though as ppl tend to be willing to throw a load of flack against emp only attacks

zik/xan having fr and ter/cat de would however make the 2 cat fleets classes that are sometimes targeted by 1 ship, such as the mantis, tho with few ships targeting outside the larger bs/cr or de/fr it should not be too much of a problem

is there a reason why you could not keep xan as de with ter as de and move zik/cat to fr? - thats if the main intention is to keep a high initiative fleet with a low initiative fleet (as 2 low initiative fleets together was imo part of the problem when zik/ter de were teamed)
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 10:38   #267
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
terrans would walk over ziks.

Caths would have a harder time roiding them with co. ETC
Both terrans and xands can already hit zik with their FR and their DE anyway... and cath would FR whilst etd are CO, and etd CO stuns DE as primary target, so should be as strong against terrans as cath CO was this round.

But I agree with you, it would need plenty of tweaking.

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not having a killship partner would make a cathaar or etd fr fleet very easy to stop most of the time though as ppl tend to be willing to throw a load of flack against emp only attacks
If you mean an attack partner of another race, then cath would have DE with terrans, and etd would have CO with xands. But etd would also have their own killship FI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
zik/xan having fr and ter/cat de would however make the 2 cat fleets classes that are sometimes targeted by 1 ship, such as the mantis, tho with few ships targeting outside the larger bs/cr or de/fr it should not be too much of a problem
Yeah, I wanted to avoid this if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
is there a reason why you could not keep xan as de with ter as de and move zik/cat to fr? - thats if the main intention is to keep a high initiative fleet with a low initiative fleet (as 2 low initiative fleets together was imo part of the problem when zik/ter de were teamed)
The reason against moving zik to FR is the thief - it would now be flakked against avenger/roach and weaken CR/BS fleets significantly.

It's possible to fix this but it'd need a series of other changes to rebalance.

EDIT: Maybe not. Halving the thief's E/R could work. Or abolishing the thief and leaving the marauder as the stealer.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 11:10   #268
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Re: Stats Round 27

Just saying that part of the fun is examining a new set of stats. That said I'd rather play with a set of not so well balanced new stats instead of a set of stats on its third iteration. And if they are not perfectly balanced, some good players will know what races to go anyway, which I still consider a good thing as it at least shows some skill is needed. A tiny bit of chaos and change in one form or another is needed for creativity and fun. There's very little room for those without any changes in game mechanics or stats. This of course expands out of the stats context too.

Just my two cents.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 11:12   #269
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Re: Stats Round 27

for the not having an attack partner I was meaning if there was only one fr fleet... presumably an emp fleet with the terrans being moved to de, this would also make de teamups very powerful so I would be against having 3 de and 1 fr.

on a side note does anyone yet know if there is any movement on new stats or not? as the problem last round was that no one wanted to do them (or else did not have time) I imagine this has not resolved itself.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 11:14   #270
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Both terrans and xands can already hit zik with their FR and their DE anyway... and cath would FR whilst etd are CO, and etd CO stuns DE as primary target, so should be as strong against terrans as cath CO was this round.

But I agree with you, it would need plenty of tweaking.

vs terrans you now have the option to steal with pirates and you can steal with corsairs since the centaur does FK ALL dmdg vs corsairs with t3 fi.
Change that to DE -> remove pirates option.
Change centaur to peg with fi t1 -> bye bye sairs, and with the steal rate vs terrans for sairs you will end up in losses no matter how many sairs u manage to prod.
Xan DE is easy to stop for ziks since you can get it all back with enough sairs. This wont be the case ( unless TOTALLY changed armour on terran which would lead to 1000 other changes ) with Terrans.

Change Terran FR -> DE and you will find urself in a situation where Terrans just hit ziks cause ziks cant defend against it unless stolen shitloads. I believe this is what we in the past have tried to make sure didnt happen
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 12:02   #271
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Just saying that part of the fun is examining a new set of stats. That said I'd rather play with a set of not so well balanced new stats instead of a set of stats on its third iteration. And if they are not perfectly balanced, some good players will know what races to go anyway, which I still consider a good thing as it at least shows some skill is needed. A tiny bit of chaos and change in one form or another is needed for creativity and fun. There's very little room for those without any changes in game mechanics or stats. This of course expands out of the stats context too.

Just my two cents.
I have to agree.
I would much rather play with a new set than a third round of similar stats. A big part of the fun for me is analysing the new stats and picking the right race dependant on weaknesses/strengths of others.

As much as I think the current stats are some of the most balanced stats we've ever had whilst i've been playing.

A new set of stats are required to keep the game fresh.
As if stats are barely changed, as mentioned we will see a ridiculous amount of xans building just fr/de again, and ziks with masses and masses of corsairs.

I would like to see some dramatic changes that completely re-form the attack fleets of some races. For example, the return of a fighter attack fleet.

But as mentioned, a 3rd round of the same stats, will be far too boring.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 12:33   #272
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Re: Stats Round 27

I have to agree on the need for a new set of stats altogether. It's far too dull otherwise. If I have the time to do it properly myself I'm cool to help out but I'm genuinely not sure if I will.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 12:43   #273
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Re: Stats Round 27

Arent there people who have sets of stats already made which havent been used(Gate?). Perhaps these could be used as a basis for a new set of stats?
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 12:44   #274
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Re: Stats Round 27

I d like a new set aswell I spose.

zik fi/co podclass with stealers or something cool like that
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 12:53   #275
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Re: Stats Round 27

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I d like a new set aswell I spose.

zik fi/co podclass with stealers or something cool like that

It would have to look relatively shit in the stats. CO typically guarantees effective roidgain, and effective roigain for zik can easily overpower them. I think the zik CO fleet was one of my biggest mistakes in r17 (along with terran being a lil weak).

Multitargetting may offset that though; previously everyone tended to have a bit of both attack fleets. Nowadays it's generally more efficient to pick one.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 15:31   #276
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Re: Stats Round 27

What about just editing a stats set from say 10 rounds ago? I atleast cant say i remember that much from back then, and surely the political climate is sure to be different etc.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 16:21   #277
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Re: Stats Round 27

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What about just editing a stats set from say 10 rounds ago? I atleast cant say i remember that much from back then, and surely the political climate is sure to be different etc.
No multitargetting iirc? Would take a chunk of reorganising effort. R25 could be used, but cath suck balls in it and would need a complete rebalancing.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 16:28   #278
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Re: Stats Round 27

Ah damnit thats right, my bad.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 16:39   #279
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Re: Stats Round 27

Due to the inherent advantages in zik and xan I'd recommend that any new set of stats creates one solo-class roiding fleet for each, as in for example if xan had fi instead of de this round.

Go etd/xan fi, zik/cath co, xan fr, terran/etd de, zik cr, terran/cath bs (or go cath de + etd bs or terran fi (wooo crazy!) + etd bs). Then it's just a question of messing around with initiatives to get some balance and then compensating for any failures with a/c and d/c. Which of course is the niggardly bit.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 09:37   #280
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Re: Stats Round 27

I really like the stats and I don't think they need to be completely reworked to have a fun and competitive round.

Playing zik the last 2 rounds has been a joy in the sense of feeling usefull. But it's still a trade off, we need to build pure defence ships making us solo attacking wise as weak as terran but more usefull in teamups. No amount of shadows has made me get rid of fr/de inc at least and you need to be damn lucky to cap them in the first place, not to mention you lose all your corsairs at the same time, heh. Looking back its been fr/de teams roiding me every single time except 1 cr/bs sneaking past.
But I don't think the zik style would suit everyone wish, and I don't think its clearly the best race either. (best zik was 3rd last round, 6th this round)
More people going etd would also make zik weaker.

From what I saw of the new etd cr/bs fleet you can do alot of fun things with it too (at least in gal def), while xan is more locked but can ofc fake the best. Terran is pretty underrated, there were people doing very well with them outside fence gals too once they balanced a decent fleet. I played cath quite often in the past and we all know they can do really well.

I seem to remember some stats with xan fi pods, but as said it was prolly single target stats.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:19   #281
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Re: Stats Round 27

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CR etds found it pretty easy to hit zik.
hehe Everytime we got ND incs (quite frequently) i could almost guarantee you'd hit me
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:59   #282
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Re: Stats Round 27

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hehe Everytime we got ND incs (quite frequently) i could almost guarantee you'd hit me
It's a pity that almost no-one listened to me about the etd CR/BS thing!

And I was often too inactive to get a cath to be my escort bitch
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 11:10   #283
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Re: Stats Round 27

I dont have a problem with etd cr\bs offensively but defensively your so wide open to CO that the only way to survive tends to be to defwhore like mad or have a huge percentage of your fleet in a ship that can neither be used in attacks nor in ally defence.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 11:52   #284
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Re: Stats Round 27

bring back single targeting a round
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 12:03   #285
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Re: Stats Round 27

All i ask for is something different.

Whether it be single targetting or revamping the attack fleets.

I still like the idea of having to choose two pods classes pre-round for each race, so people can be the same race with different attack fleet compositions.

So pre-round a Terran could choose fi pods with bs pods.
Other terrans could choose fr pods with co pods.

Will allow of alot of variation in that aspect.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 12:16   #286
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Re: Stats Round 27

Alternatively, how about every race be able to build pods in every class?
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 12:34   #287
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Re: Stats Round 27

being able to build every type of pod would make fakes too easy and would be a nightmare for dcs - although I guess it would be limited by the types of ships that that race can build otherwise, as you could work out from ship numbers what class was sent, however this would make cloaked fakes impossible to work out, and so would probably make xan, and possibly etd too powerful!... so if going for customization I would prefer being able to chose 2 types of pod.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 12:50   #288
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Re: Stats Round 27

I dont see how it changes much as regards to xans. Seeing as attackers send along fi\co on co attacks it doesnt matter much if its fi or co pods sent as if one is covered so is the other. As for fr\de its pretty much the same thing seeing as most the anti DE def also targets FR.

It has to be said I havent thought alot about the possible side effects of this change, but atleast it would be something different and it shouldnt be hard to code either
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 16:16   #289
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Re: Stats Round 27

I decided to try the approach of messing about for a bit without worrying, and then spending 5-10 minutes polishing, and came up with this.

It's far from balanced but it's got some interesting features IMO (Terran FI podfleet!1!1) and it might be fixable. Also, most of the numbers are rubbish, only class, targets, inits & types are roughly sorted.

Also, I'd consider fixing the currently stupid EMP system and replacing M/C/E with plain old resources.

Remember that if EMP fleets look crap, you can just nerf the E/R of a ship.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 16:47   #290
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Re: Stats Round 27

Looks interesting, certainly a big change from the last couple of rounds atleast.

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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 16:50   #291
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Re: Stats Round 27

Personally I've always felt that for cath to be balanced they need a minimum eta attack fleet. The nature of cath attacks are that they are covered via flak more than any other non-emp fleets. As such giving them a fleet which you have only 1 tick for ally def and 3 for ingal is a non-directly-stats related advantage that boosts cath more than any other race.

Also lolling at the funnelweb.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 20:52   #292
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Personally I've always felt that for cath to be balanced they need a minimum eta attack fleet. The nature of cath attacks are that they are covered via flak more than any other non-emp fleets. As such giving them a fleet which you have only 1 tick for ally def and 3 for ingal is a non-directly-stats related advantage that boosts cath more than any other race.

Also lolling at the funnelweb.
I thought of giving xands a CR fleet and caths a CO. Crazy, eh?

EDIT: For this to work, the xand research disadvantage would have to go for a round.
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 01:55   #293
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on the other hand with DE/CR attack fleets Cath can fake... and that sounds scary.
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 02:51   #294
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Re: Stats Round 27

Doesnt xands having a CR fleet defeat the real purpose of the race, well according to the manual with them having high numbers of small fast, hard firing low armour ships...then again the fast/hard firing parts have gone and last 3 rounds the larger class of xan ships have been best so i guess natural progression is might as well have xan bs at this rate...
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 03:07   #295
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
on the other hand with DE/CR attack fleets Cath can fake... and that sounds scary.
No. No, it doesnt.
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 05:10   #296
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Re: Stats Round 27

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No. No, it doesnt.
Yes. Yes, it does.
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 07:24   #297
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Yes. Yes, it does.
no, it really doesn't. you can fake co as cr now if you wish. its no less scary.
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 07:53   #298
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Re: Stats Round 27

with ships being closer in regards to cost it will be easier and more likely to be able to get through with both combos on someone, and force them to cover vs both.

think thats what he meant.

hard to pull off a fake of fi from a bs fleet, or fking easy for target to just stay home with his anti fi to stop u if thats the case.

etc!

btw, like how both zik pod classes are pure steal. At a quick glance ( fking quick one mind you ) the ziks looks atleast "interesting" to play.

I cba to look closer ( I might ) untill its decided, or likely that these stats will be used as the basics for next round
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 08:27   #299
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Re: Stats Round 27

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Originally Posted by ElAlan View Post
Doesnt xands having a CR fleet defeat the real purpose of the race, well according to the manual with them having high numbers of small fast, hard firing low armour ships...then again the fast/hard firing parts have gone and last 3 rounds the larger class of xan ships have been best so i guess natural progression is might as well have xan bs at this rate...
May as well have xan BS if it's balanced within the statset.

After a further play I came up with this. If people want to use it as a base, I think it's now different enough from last round's that it's ready to start tweaking for balance.

I haven't looked properly at them yet, there could be a horrible break in them. If you find one, please point it/them out. Same if you have any suggestions.

JBG: theoretically I agree with you about cath+CO, but cath had FR/CR in round 17 and managed 18 t100 planets, whilst last round etds outperformed caths on average.
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Last edited by Gate; 31 Jul 2008 at 08:38.
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Unread 31 Jul 2008, 08:40   #300
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Re: Stats Round 27

Exactly Wishmaster, and having to cover both DE and CR would be a waste of ships for any ally...
The pillager is the only ship covering those 2 targets (and the only one covering 2 targets from different metaclass as T1 and T2), but even then the Cath have a powerfull anti FR in both DE and CR fleet... loads of pillager + FR flak may be a solution but ETD don't have FR, and FR is an attack fleet for both Zik and Xan...
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