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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 04:03   #1
Melesse
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[Discuss] Next Round's Races

Using the Philosophic Guidelines for the next round (Posted by Banned in Strategic Discussions), I was bored at work today and came up with some ideas about next round and the race balance. I think I remember Ultimate Newbie saying at some point he was doing next round's stats, so I can only hope these, and whatever discussion they start help him with his work. As well, I think Kal said that the next round was to be an incremental change, rather then a complete do over, so I tried to make minimal changes.

I think each race having EMP and Stealing would be grand. However one ship isn't that useful, so I decided on two ships of each type the race doesn't specialize in. For example, Terran would get six normal ships, two EMP ships, and two Stealing ships. Cath would get six EMP ships, two Stealing and two normal, etc. The only real debate here is how to distribute the ships. There are several ways, but I settled on One stealing ship in the attacking fleet (The higher ETA one), and one stealing ship in another ship class (There will be an example, so if you're confused, keep reading), but that steals ships in the Roiding class. Alright, I'm confusing myself, so here's my Terran example.

Most ships stay the same except -

Harpy - Eliminated
Basilisk - CO class ship that EMPs, and targets FR.
Drake - Becomes a Stealing ship that targets CR.
Medusa - CR that EMPs FI
Wyvern - Becomes a Stealing ship that targets DE.

Alright, the idea is that each race can steal to augment one roiding fleet, and steal a new roiding fleet they otherwise could not use. The EMP is kind of incidental, though I think one EMP ship in the roiding fleet you can steal would be nice. Now see, that was easier. Since this example is terran, you can see the push towards bigger ships. Alternatively you could arrange it so that every race could have an attack fleet of each ETA, or bias them (Terran gets FR, CR, and BS roiding fleets....Xan gets FI, CO, and FR roiding fleets).

Zik wouldn't really get much of an advantage, except at the start they would have two ship classes they could steal without losses due to the two EMP ships, although so would Cath.

Now, I also think these special abilities should only be able to be used after being researched. Say a 24-48 tick research in order to build ships that can EMP/Steal, although Caths and Ziks would need a different research since they can steal/EMP by default. There was a suggestion for Killer Caths in another thread so I think it would be an appropriate research, and I have a similiar idea for Ziks. Basically, at the beginning of the round, Ziks are only 60% efficient at stealing....they accidentally destroy 40% of the ships they intend to steal.

Research -
Terrans:
Stealing - 24 ticks
EMP - 24 ticks
Increased Production (improves production by 2 ticks) - 48 ticks

Cath:
Stealing - 24 ticks
Killer Cath - 10% of EMPed ships are destroyed at the end of combat - 12 ticks
20% " "
30% " "

Zik:
EMP - 24 ticks
Zik Efficiency - Only 30% of ships Stolen are lost - 12 ticks
20% - 24 ticks
10% - 36 ticks

Xan:
Steal - 24 ticks
EMP - 24 ticks
Decreased production time - 48 ticks

So this way, Ziks efficiency this round is reduced, and only can be improved if you sacrifice something else. I am very much in favor of having a research tree you cannot complete all of. Make someone choose between better ships, or more roids, or faster ships. These are of course just ideas.

The Initiative of the ships would have to be altered slightly. Non-Cath EMP ships would fire after Cath EMP, but before any kill ships. Non-Zik stealing ships would steal after Zik Stealing ships...basically dead last.

Alright, I'm all typed out. So, feedback would be welcome, I'd be happy to explain anything that is confusing. And this is mostly for ideas for Ultimate Newbie, remember lol.

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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 06:22   #2
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Re: Next Round's Races

Good post, it looks feasible. I would prefer if in addition to your own race ability you had to make a choice between Cath style EMP, Zik Style Stealing, Terran style Armour, Xan style Cloacking (one research excludes the others) Rather than having everybody having a bit of everything.
This would be 'Alien technology research', and could for example become available once you've gotten some salvage of alien ships, or could be a quest, or even a cov op.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people would go for stealing ability... but it wouldn't necessarily be the best choice.
Your special ship would then be a copy of existing ships of the original race with a bit lower stats (init or else).
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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 10:33   #3
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Re: Next Round's Races

This would have to be round 15 stuff. The combat part of the ticker would have to be completely rewritten for a lot of the stuff you mentioned with lots of new things added - the killer EMP, etc. I'm very much for the specialisation of races (although it makes it harder to balance), but while Zik were obviously strong this round, we can't over-nerf them (which is possible if other people have steal).
Letting them cap 60%, 70% etc after completeing researches is almost the same as having 60/70% cap damage and 40/30% kill damage. I'll comment more later, but there's a few people working on next round's stats.
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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 18:49   #4
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Re: Next Round's Races

I know it's been discussed before, but the more I consider it, the less I like the 'killer cath' idea. Surely the whole point of EMP is that it doesnt kill anything. Even killing 10% of EMP'd ships could make cathaar too powerful, I think...
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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 19:24   #5
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Re: Next Round's Races

Why would killing 10% of ships make them too powerful? I mean, there are plenty of Xan ships that are more efficient than Cath ships, and they kill 100%!

As a side note, Perhaps it would be better for Zik to bring back Subversion as their main attack, and then they could research stealing 10%, 20%, and then 30% of the ships they subvert. That couldn't be considered overpowered, as the opposing fleet still gets most of their ships back, and it dramatically reduces Zik's stealing abilities....although it might be a little more powerful with the earlier Init. Maybe it subverts init 2, and then steals init 44? Although it really doesn't matter the init since they're already subverted...or maybe what the research can do is reduce the subverting damage by a corresponding amount, and then apply that amount after the roids taken has been calculated. So completing all the research would reduce your subversion ships damage by 30%, but you would gain 30% of their damage worth of targetted ships after the roids were calced.

I dunno.

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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 19:27   #6
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Re: Next Round's Races

Well for a start, EMP has init 1 or 2, and so all of a sudden instead of being the easiest race to roid with no losses, they become the hardest to roid (with no losses).
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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 19:49   #7
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Re: Next Round's Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melesse
so here's my Terran example.

Most ships stay the same except -

Harpy - Eliminated
No they cant be eliminated get rid of syrens if anything tbh.
Terrans fleet costs a fortune and having harpys makes fake attacks fun but a little expensive for fake attacks but its all we got.
To get rid of them all together would make fake attacking to expensive when peeps like xans and cats and ziks are all churning out lots of nice cheap and easy ships to fake with.

Everyone knows I like harpys and i am biased (cept this round they are pap compared to last but i still use them for said above reason) so I will argue with that one


But the rest I admit is an interesting read I just worry about this stealing malarky but i do like the stealing 10% and 20% and 30% thingy thats a pretty nifty idea.
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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 20:15   #8
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Re: Next Round's Races

i dont like the idea of giving each race a bit of everything, i would rather they were different like they are now..i dont like the whole killer cath idea either...either give emp resist and have emp check against that instead of armor, or simply give cath the kind of kill ships they had last round again
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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 22:12   #9
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Re: Next Round's Races

Yeah, Cathaar having pretty 'normal' kill ships seemed to work ok.
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Unread 7 Jun 2005, 23:47   #10
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Re: Next Round's Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neferti
Well for a start, EMP has init 1 or 2, and so all of a sudden instead of being the easiest race to roid with no losses, they become the hardest to roid (with no losses).
And that's a bad thing? That's something that's always made Caths the weakest race defensively. Again, it's so much worse to lose 30% of the damage to a Cath, rather then 100% of the damage to a Xan? They have similiar efficiencies, the only difference is initiative. Losing 100% of the damage in exchange for a slightly better firing position is a fools bargain. Instead of just adding it back, making it a research that you would have to not research something else, so there's an element of balance.

In turn, making Caths have some sort of killing ability would help rebalance them, since they will ALWAYS be able to be attacked by EVERYONE due to their EMP, unless they gimp their fleet with the wussiest kill ships of all. If I were a Cath this round, I wouldn't even bother to try defending. It's a fool's Errand.

Now, let's pull up a Battlecalc for an attack on a random Cath and a random Xan. Each of them is going to have 100k (or as close as I can get it) of Scorpions and Vsharraks (respectively). Let's see the results.

Cath -
2000 Cutlasses and 1000 Privateers vs. 250 Scorps (100,000 Value)
Result:
1477 Cutlasses frozen
902 Privateers frozen

Xan -
2000 Cutlasses and 1000 Privateers vs. 10,300 Vsharraks (100,425 value)
Result:
1560 Cutlasses dead
953 Privateers dead

The Lancer is slightly less efficient (20% or so), but also means a zero loss defense. Now if we applied the 30% Cath kill rate, now the first attacker loses ~500 Cutlasses and 300 Privateers. Geez, that sure seems unbalanced to me.

I'm confused by the supposed inbalance, Neferti, you're going to have to explain it in smaller words.

Also, it was mentioned in the Killer Cath thread that this would be more appropriate in defense only. I can understand that, as attacking with a Cath, you don't want to kill anything anyways (More value = more xp).

The choices as I see it in attacking a Cath vs. someone else would be smaller definite loss, vs. a possibly larger loss or possibly a no loss. I don't see that as being imbalanced, I just see it as a choice you have to make. What I think is imbalanced is that Cath don't do ANY damage right now, and you can always attack them with no losses. That seems unbalanced to me.

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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 11:56   #11
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Re: Next Round's Races

There are ongoing private discussions on stats for next round, both improving these current ones and producing new stats.
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 12:07   #12
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Re: Next Round's Races

How about the option that each race has his own 6-8 specific ship and EACH planet can select 2 extra ships(in total) from any other race. this would create hundreds of combinations and hardly any planet would have the exact same initial fleet setup.

Offensive players can chose to add 2 offensive ships (like a XAN deciding to take other FI's from another race) while defensive players can settle for what their race lacks in defence.

Also it makes attacks less predictable (imaging you got so much jammers, they'll never know what extra 2 ship you chose untill you land).
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 13:39   #13
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Re: Next Round's Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
How about the option that each race has his own 6-8 specific ship and EACH planet can select 2 extra ships(in total) from any other race. this would create hundreds of combinations and hardly any planet would have the exact same initial fleet setup.

Offensive players can chose to add 2 offensive ships (like a XAN deciding to take other FI's from another race) while defensive players can settle for what their race lacks in defence.

Also it makes attacks less predictable (imaging you got so much jammers, they'll never know what extra 2 ship you chose untill you land).
It'd be impossible to balance....
My initial reaction is no.
ATM we have 12 ships, so it'd still have to be 10+2 and with 7 ships (10-2 pods and a structure killer) you're probably going to end up with each race having a class missing, or a very very obvious couple of flak ships.
Obviously the strategy would be extremely interesting, but if Cath stick to 6 EMP ships and Zik 6 steal ships then there's only 1 kill ship each they have, which makes them weak until they get these extra ships (and perhaps beyond). Also as you obviously can't change the extra ships you choose, everyone will complain they chose the wrong ship when they see other people's ships, etc.
I'd prefer all races to have steal, it seems easier to do and doesn't involve changing much but the stats.
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 15:36   #14
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Re: Next Round's Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
It'd be impossible to balance....
My initial reaction is no.
ATM we have 12 ships, so it'd still have to be 10+2 and with 7 ships (10-2 pods and a structure killer) you're probably going to end up with each race having a class missing, or a very very obvious couple of flak ships.
Obviously the strategy would be extremely interesting, but if Cath stick to 6 EMP ships and Zik 6 steal ships then there's only 1 kill ship each they have, which makes them weak until they get these extra ships (and perhaps beyond). Also as you obviously can't change the extra ships you choose, everyone will complain they chose the wrong ship when they see other people's ships, etc.
I'd prefer all races to have steal, it seems easier to do and doesn't involve changing much but the stats.
Well, the amount of free choice extra ships can ofc be debated, same with the possible options of extra ship. It would idd create rather interesting and surprising strategies and encounters and pple can distinguish themselves from others. Now, it's not 800 pple with the same ships available as XAN, but far less cause you are XAN, but you have 1-2 other ship which in a normal situation would be different from other XAN player (or atleast a part).

I do agree however that it "could" lead to everyone chosing the same ship but that's because that type of ship will be too powerfull etc so that's rather something caused by imbalances stats rather then the suggestion for an extra option.

My point is to let the player CHOSE which extra ship he wants. It's the big success of all RPG games, gamers can actually distinguish their character or entity.
I think it'd help PA if pple can have more choice then the 4 races we currently have. And make their planet different then another planet;
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 17:26   #15
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Re: Next Round's Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
. Now, it's not 800 pple with the same ships available as XAN, but far less cause you are XAN, but you have 1-2 other ship which in a normal situation would be different from other XAN player (or atleast a part).

I do agree however that it "could" lead to everyone chosing the same ship but that's because that type of ship will be too powerfull etc so that's rather something caused by imbalances stats rather then the suggestion for an extra option.
The stealing their discussing now for each race would basically be this, in a slightly more predictable form. You can't chose the ship, but in two classes you get additional ships. Now, the real question here is which two classes are they going to be? Are you going to be able to add to your current roiding fleet? Or are you going to be able to add two new roiding fleets? Personally, I'd prefer to add one fleet, and one new one, ut that's just me.

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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 17:49   #16
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Re: Next Round's Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melesse
The stealing their discussing now for each race would basically be this, in a slightly more predictable form. You can't chose the ship, but in two classes you get additional ships. Now, the real question here is which two classes are they going to be? Are you going to be able to add to your current roiding fleet? Or are you going to be able to add two new roiding fleets? Personally, I'd prefer to add one fleet, and one new one, ut that's just me.

Melesse
Yes, I thought that 2 ships would be about right with 1 adding to your current fleet and one getting you a new fleet, or something similar, was ok
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 18:51   #17
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Re: [Discuss] Next Round's Races

I like the idea of adding more dynamics to the game by intermixing the races. But my doing that you just water down the current races and really just merge them into one race. If each race is to have 2 types of ships from the other races then why not just eliminate races all together and just have one race with a mix of all different types of ships.

I would be for having more smaller changes over the next few rounds. Maybe allow each race to 'steal' the technology of another race and get one ship that they can produce. ( along the lines of what KJ said)
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 19:51   #18
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Re: [Discuss] Next Round's Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode
If each race is to have 2 types of ships from the other races then why not just eliminate races all together and just have one race with a mix of all different types of ships.
This is another option still popular with some, athough in a way it's "going back". Ideas for progressing the whole race sytem would be interesting, as long as it made it easier for new players to play
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 20:09   #19
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Re: [Discuss] Next Round's Races

i remember someone suggesting the idea of super races. for example if you were a zik and stole some beetles you would then be able to make beetles at the production screen but these would suffer breakdowns etc. If you were a terran you would be able to make highly armoured ships but they cost less than than other races. You get my point
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 20:12   #20
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Re: [Discuss] Next Round's Races

Race specialisation, yes there's a few threads on that around.
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Unread 10 Jun 2005, 21:16   #21
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Re: [Discuss] Next Round's Races

Why oh Why do ppl want to give each race an aspect of other races features. I mean, if you want to steal, go zik, if you want EMP, go cath etc. If your going to give each race pieces from other races you might as well just have one race altogether which has a combination of each of the features of the 4 races.

As you can see I like Race Specialization, I even specialize my fleet within the specialized race (hope you get what i mean).

Either have 4 races like they are now, specialized in some way or have one race where everyone has the same ships to build which come from all 4 races, don't try mixing the two
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Unread 11 Jun 2005, 13:38   #22
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Re: [Discuss] Next Round's Races

Because if one of the race's specialisations have specific useful purposes, but the costs exceed this benefit in the form of constant incoming due to being unable to kill anything, no-one will go this race. Yes, i am talking about cathaar. Cathaar's strength is in attacking, and particularly attacking as a team - its the team player's race in an individualistic triumph universe. Its nice hacing some representation of all the races in each round - and to encourage people to go cathaar there must be incentive.

On the other hand, the cheap stealing of Zikonians has gone way out of hand - that either needs to be eliminated entirely and going back to subversion (or loosing stealers whilst stealing), OR let every race have at least the ability to steal.

If you are going to share around stealing and/or give other benefits to one race, its only 'fair' that the other races have these skills too.
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Unread 11 Jun 2005, 15:36   #23
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Re: [Discuss] Next Round's Races

I would like to see the races be able to produce at least one ship out of another race. But I think that is something for a few rounds down the road. I agree with UN, right now we have a problem with the overpowerful ziks and the underpowered caths that needs to be resolved for next round. I would say a good solution for next round would be to lower the stealing ability of the ziks and have them lose their stealing ships when they are used. Then either bring back EMP res or increase the power of the emp ships so they are more usefull in an attack. Right now a xan can roid a cath almost 25% larger than themselves and not have any losses. I would say increase the power of the Cath EMP weapons accordingly and adjust the ability of ziks to steal, then move on to the evolution of the races.
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