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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 11:27   #51
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Re: No new alliances?

I think ascendancy's problem is that a lot of our players still play with the idea that there are people called HCs out there who are defined by the fact that they're not them. So they're quite unwilling to make, what would be elsewhere, HC level decisions.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 11:39   #52
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Re: No new alliances?

I wasn't disputing that are alternatives to the current system - nor that they (sometimes) work.

But the results of a couple of rounds don't constitute evidence to refute our assertion that there aren't enough potential officers around to support many new alliances.

Asc's ingenuity in finding new ways to play has been demonstrated throughout many rounds - but, in my opinion, most PA players aren't capable of succeeding in that way.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 13:49   #53
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
Asc's ingenuity in finding new ways to play has been demonstrated throughout many rounds - but, in my opinion, most PA players aren't capable of succeeding in that way.
That is the path of fear, and fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the darkside, which in turn leads to pointless hierarchy.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 14:35   #54
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
That is the path of fear, and fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the darkside, which in turn leads to pointless hierarchy.
One of the reasons I return to play every once in a while is due to an alliance like Ascendancy. Here people can more or less play as the feel, activity wise and planet wise.
There are no imposed rules on activity, amount of attack or defence fleets sent.
No desire from command for phone numbers to get hold of their players to send defence in the middle of the night.

Problem with all these hierarchily controlled alliances are in my humble opinion that it moves a game into a time consuming unpaid job.

Quite a few alliances have some set goals for what they want to achieve as an alliance and a lot of it doesn't fit that much with their members.

Ascendancy has the same proportion of shit players that other alliances have, the difference here is that everyone is treated equal(apart from alki, jer etc). Noone is judging you on what rank you can achieve in a mediocre to crap online game.

Problem with a lot of players are, that they are used to the imposed boundaries set by the HC/BC/DC players and are afraid to break free of these bonds. The game would be a lot more dynamical if the "peons" actually tried to risk playing the game instead of letting other people decide the flow of your fleets and ressources.

A lot of this is probably deranged blabber to most of you, but just my 2 cents worth on a bored afternoon at home.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 14:37   #55
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Re: No new alliances?

Sometimes I send myself private messages on irc just so I can feel like I'm in charge.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 16:50   #56
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desse
One of the reasons I return to play every once in a while is due to an alliance like Ascendancy. Here people can more or less play as the feel, activity wise and planet wise.
There are no imposed rules on activity, amount of attack or defence fleets sent.
No desire from command for phone numbers to get hold of their players to send defence in the middle of the night.

Problem with all these hierarchily controlled alliances are in my humble opinion that it moves a game into a time consuming unpaid job.

Quite a few alliances have some set goals for what they want to achieve as an alliance and a lot of it doesn't fit that much with their members.

Ascendancy has the same proportion of shit players that other alliances have, the difference here is that everyone is treated equal(apart from alki, jer etc). Noone is judging you on what rank you can achieve in a mediocre to crap online game.

Problem with a lot of players are, that they are used to the imposed boundaries set by the HC/BC/DC players and are afraid to break free of these bonds. The game would be a lot more dynamical if the "peons" actually tried to risk playing the game instead of letting other people decide the flow of your fleets and ressources.

A lot of this is probably deranged blabber to most of you, but just my 2 cents worth on a bored afternoon at home.
and what makes you think other alliances are different?
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 18:30   #57
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Re: No new alliances?

Lets see.

Over my playing career, I have been in:

Wolfpack, Deus Ex Machina, Titans, Olympians, RaH(very shortly), Vision, 1up, Exilition and Ascendancy.

Apart from Ascendancy they have all worked under a hierarchical command structure.

So I do indeed have something to base this opinion on.
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Unread 13 Jun 2008, 23:30   #58
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exblade
and what makes you think other alliances are different?
Can you name any other allies without a heirarchy?
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Unread 14 Jun 2008, 00:37   #59
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Can you name any other allies without a heirarchy?
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Unread 14 Jun 2008, 05:24   #60
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Can you name any other allies without a heirarchy?
many alliances have a heirarchy yes but its not as strict as one would think.
some alliance yes, its hardcore by the book
other alliances theres quite a bit of freedom
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Unread 14 Jun 2008, 10:23   #61
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exblade
many alliances have a heirarchy yes but its not as strict as one would think.
some alliance yes, its hardcore by the book
other alliances theres quite a bit of freedom
Where!
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Unread 14 Jun 2008, 11:41   #62
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Re: No new alliances?

Here!
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Unread 14 Jun 2008, 12:50   #63
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exblade
many alliances have a heirarchy yes but its not as strict as one would think.
some alliance yes, its hardcore by the book
other alliances theres quite a bit of freedom
On the other hand, a lot of this "freedom" is very often(not necessarily always) just a byproduct of commands inability to control their members. They would like everything to work through strict hierarchy but lack authority and means required to control all of their members.
In such a situation you can often do a lot of things that are against "the rules" because you know that you will get away with it. Either they never even notice it or then they are just going to complain to you about it. So your actions won't have any real consequences in any case.
It's kind of an "pseudo-freedom". There are rules and you should follow them but in practice they can be ignored(at least to some extent) as no-one is effectively enforcing all of the rules. You could say that it's just an failed attempt to adopt hierarchical command structure. Generally it leads to inefficiency and most likely it's just easier to say that "we have freedom...." than "we are failing on what we are trying to do".
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Unread 16 Jun 2008, 13:02   #64
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Re: No new alliances?

also i want total freedom
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Unread 16 Jun 2008, 17:43   #65
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Re: No new alliances?

But what you are is total chaos.
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Unread 16 Jun 2008, 19:59   #66
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
But what you are is total chaos.
You are ugly when you're jealous, you know that?
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 07:47   #67
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exblade
many alliances have a heirarchy yes but its not as strict as one would think.
some alliance yes, its hardcore by the book
other alliances theres quite a bit of freedom
Then why have the hierarchy at all? Why does someone have to sit at the "top" and feel important? Do those alliances still have separate channels for HC and/or Officers? Do they have differentiated access to alliance resources?

I'm not saying they're bad, it's good to have less hierarchy! (IMHO, obviously.) I'm just saying that there's a difference between crap hierarchy and continually trying to improve the lack of hierarchy.

Miksu's points are also very salient. I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on them.
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 11:41   #68
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Ascendancy's core of players wasn't "brilliant" in round 26.

But I played with you guys in round 26!
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 11:52   #69
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Can you name any other allies without a heirarchy?
That's a tough one. Back in when I came back to Planetarion for round 13, we didn't have such hierarcy in the ******** Omen side. The Hydra battlegroup was very loose internally too, but obviously, to an extent, dominated by being inside a hierarchical alliance. That be said, a lot of choices that were made by certain parties (again, with little hierarchy involved) inside the battlegroup clashed with the interests of the Wolfpack. By definition, though, it's probably impossible to find another group of players (better said, an entity) that have worked the way Ascendance has over rounds and rounds.
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 11:55   #70
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Re: No new alliances?

Oh my, did this free round I see people mention start already?
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 12:59   #71
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
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Oh my, did this free round I see people mention start already?
i hear no one really knows :/ only one guy signed up i hear it was u
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 13:01   #72
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Oh my, did this free round I see people mention start already?
yeah mate, its about tick 250.
I'm a scanner! \o/
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 13:43   #73
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Re: No new alliances?

That made devastatingly little sense add.
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Unread 17 Jun 2008, 14:02   #74
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
That made devastatingly little sense add.
yes that's normal u should know that :/
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Unread 8 Jul 2008, 06:24   #75
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Re: No new alliances?

The average player in Planetarion is generally shit, because of how the word "average" is defined. Say for instance you wanted the 100 people in your alliance to be in the top 100--that would require removing the dumb fecks from the alliance completely. The only way to do that is to have the precious few at the top (who care enough to do so and know what they are doing) control the rest. Which basically means a structure in which those at the top control the rest.

I mean, sure, you can have 100 solo players end in the top 100--but generally the more players you have, the greater the odds that some of them will screw their planet up eventually. This is also the reasoning behind TA'd attacks. Fleet assignment is effective (leaving synergy of coordinated attacks out of the equation) because the people who assign are generally better players (hence BCs) and can usually find targets that yield more gain than what people would find themselves--this is true more blatantly so in smaller alliances since the higher results can be seen clearly in the numbers, but is just as true in the better alliances--the gain is still just as high based on %ages, but not nesseccarily 'seemingly' as large.
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Unread 8 Jul 2008, 06:29   #76
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Re: No new alliances?

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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 19:47   #77
jamesr1ley
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Smile Re: No new alliances?

is it any wonder you dont see any new alliances this is what I got when I created one as a casual newb.


"pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=196702"

Remember at one point you must have all been a new to this you dont get experienced instantly.


Casual players do start alliances, whether thy are long lasting, succesful or deterministic is another matter

:-)
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 20:03   #78
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Re: No new alliances?

I don't think our definition of the word "alliance" extends to tags with less than 5 people.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 20:09   #79
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Smile Re: No new alliances?

lol!

point taken, however, it does seem that some people feel that people shouldnt even bother trying to create a new alliance because it wont work anyway.

What do you think?
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 20:14   #80
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Re: No new alliances?

I think that, while it's possible for a brand new alliance to succeed (after all, it worked in the days of early PA), it's highly unlikely. Further, you'll probably have a lot more fun in an established alliance, where you can also gain experience with for example BCing and DCing. And once you've spent a few rounds in an existing alliance, any attempts to start a new one will have much higher odds of succeeding.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 20:20   #81
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Re: No new alliances?

well I cant account for all newbies but I am having a really good time hence why im playing so much.

my alliance is up to 93 in the rankings now which is good in my eyes. :-)


to be honest though my galaxy is good and has helped me with advice and support.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 20:25   #82
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Re: No new alliances?

Well, as some people tend to forget, this is a game, and if you're having fun you should definitely continue doing what you do.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 21:05   #83
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesr1ley
lol!

point taken, however, it does seem that some people feel that people shouldnt even bother trying to create a new alliance because it wont work anyway.

What do you think?
Ofc people should give it a try and more people should be willing to give it a try. But at the same time you have to be realistic and understand the social responsability you have. At the moment your alliance has 1 member, thats yourself so having a bit of fun is perfectly fine as your lack of experiance and knowledge can only have a negative effect on yourself but what happens when you recruit your first member. Its not now just about you and the more members you get the greater responability you have.

Now we arent playing Round 1 through 4 anymore. New players are a rarish commodity, and even rarer are the new players with the attitude that gives them a glimmer of hope of enjoying the game. What isnt that rare though are alliances like yours, some setup with good intentions, others to fulfil a desire for power but either way somewhat i'll conceived and badly planned. These 'black hole' alliances syphon off more and more players and the chances of ever seeing them again are a million to one which isnt good for the game.

Are you capable of putting together an alliance that isnt a black hole? Yes you probally could BUT the timing for you just isnt right as at this moment you have nothing in place and nothing going for you and without streatching your wings and learning the game things arent going to start going for you. You need to get the experiance, you need to get to know how things work, you need to get to know people and you need to get people with/gaining experiance willing to come on board with you.

If your just happy to have a bit of fun on your own then just keep doing what your doing BUT if you are serious about getting additional members you need to open your eyes to the full picture and embrace the responsability your going to be taking on due to the kind of member you will generally be restricted to
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 21:08   #84
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Re: No new alliances?

So creating a shit (lets assume) alliance is fine, because you're only affecting yourself. But when people join a shit alliance (as much a free choice a starting one) it's suddenly the fault of whoever started the alliance? That's retarded.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 21:38   #85
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
So creating a shit (lets assume) alliance is fine, because you're only affecting yourself. But when people join a shit alliance (as much a free choice a starting one) it's suddenly the fault of whoever started the alliance? That's retarded.
I did not say the players were faultless. If they join an alliance without any infrastructure they have clearly made a bad choice. But its a choice that really only effects them and no-one else.

When you create an alliance and you lack the experience, knowledge and tools and you surround yourself with either no support or support in the same boat as you simply don't posses any of the qualities needed to have a realistic chance of becoming a viable alliance. If you then plough ahead with the idea whether you know it or not your being socially negligible even more so if you suger coat the position your in to potential members by not being open and honest (which many of these alliances cant help as they are often very deluded to how easy running an alliance will be). And this is a big issue as its not just yourself you are resigned to having nothing but a negative effect on but every person you persuade to join
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 21:42   #86
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Re: No new alliances?

You're not answering my question, merely changing it.

So creating a shit (lets assume) alliance based on incorrect or incomplete information is fine, because you're only affecting yourself. But when people join a shit alliance (as much a free choice a starting one) based on incorrect or incomplete information it's suddenly the fault of whoever started the alliance? That's retarded.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 22:05   #87
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Re: No new alliances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You're not answering my question, merely changing it.

So creating a shit (lets assume) alliance based on incorrect or incomplete information is fine, because you're only affecting yourself. But when people join a shit alliance (as much a free choice a starting one) based on incorrect or incomplete information it's suddenly the fault of whoever started the alliance? That's retarded.
I did answer your question if you had actually bothered to read it. I said that while the player who joins has to take some responsibility for making the bad choice of joining, the people who setup the alliance are ultimately at fault.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 22:15   #88
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Re: No new alliances?

I'll change the answer for you to laymans terms, big boy; If you lie then you are responsible.

And the one who didnt see through the lie is just stupid or gullible.
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Unread 10 Jul 2008, 22:35   #89
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Re: No new alliances?

No one is lying.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 11 Jul 2008, 13:43   #90
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Re: No new alliances?

having played in ascendancy last round it is easy to say if a little effort was put into covering inc then they would easily win every round as everynight someone would set up an attack so that was not an issue , but having said that the way they play is great as it leave's you the responsibilty to manage your own planet as you see fit

although winding JBG up that we crashed 5 mil value in the last week was a little evil
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