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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:22   #101
Hebdomad
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Aren't radiohead making a profit from In Rainbows?
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:24   #102
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Exclamation Re: OiNK closed down...

I thought the 'minimum rate' on the 'free' In Rainbows was something like £4? So yeah if my memory isn't as ****ed as I suspect it is, they probably are making a profit.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:25   #103
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why did they lower their prices, do you think...? :economics:
The lowering of album prices had been going on for some years before that. I bought The Holy Bible in 1999 (which was around the time of the launch of Napster, but I doubt the music industry was preemptively responding to something it obviously hadn't considered) for the princely sum of £7.99, RRP. Outlets like Amazon will also have contributed to a lowering in prices, independent of the effect of downloading music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What does TOTP have to do with it? MTV etc are still going strong, and they only show/play singles.
A lot of the music on the channels you go on to quote are no longer available as shop-bought singles, especially VH1 Classic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What do they want? Free access to music? The simple facts are that it costs money to make music - by CDs, studio time, equipment, marketing, wages, etc. It can't be completely free. There needs to be a compromise where a nominal amount is paid for music to keep artists creating it - getting it completely free goes against this.
If only someone had made a list of services oink provided that weren't supplied by regular outlets, although obviously preferrably that list should be made out of things I had said so it's not like I'm plucking things out of the aether.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:25   #104
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Re: OiNK closed down...

The minimum rate was £0.00.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:26   #105
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Exclamation Re: OiNK closed down...

Well what am I thinking of? Was it one of their 'specials' or something?
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:26   #106
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I thought the 'minimum rate' on the 'free' In Rainbows was something like £4? So yeah if my memory isn't as ****ed as I suspect it is, they probably are making a profit.
The average people have paid for In Rainbows was £4. The minimum was £0, which approximately 1/3 of people paid (according to a survey independent of the band).
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:27   #107
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Re: OiNK closed down...

It'll be interesting when someone devices a way of reading books using a digital medium that isn't awful.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:29   #108
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
It'll be interesting when someone devices a way of reading books using a digital medium that isn't awful.
You mean electronic paper?
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:29   #109
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Exclamation Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The average people have paid for In Rainbows was £4. The minimum was £0, which approximately 1/3 of people paid (according to a survey independent of the band).
I thought £4 came into it somewhere.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 18:37   #110
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Get out
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 21:18   #111
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I never used oink
But you did! Indirectly though.

I buy music from bands I like occasionally, but most of these bands are bands I wouldn't really have listened to in the first place if it weren't for places like OiNK.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 21:21   #112
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
But you did! Indirectly though.

I buy music from bands I like occasionally, but most of these bands are bands I wouldn't really have listened to in the first place if it weren't for places like OiNK.
By that logic I'm sure I've also used a computer belonging to a child porn distributor.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 21:23   #113
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
By that logic I'm sure I've also used a computer belonging to a child porn distributor.
That's just mean.

Edit: Point was that some of the songs I dug up for you the in the past came from OiNK.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 21:31   #114
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Re: OiNK closed down...

The adventure game would be phenomenal
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 22:54   #115
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Re: OiNK closed down...

In lieu of a well thought-out post I'm just going to say that I support the hopeful destruction of music industry as it is even if that involves stealing from artists. This is mainly because I reckon a more decentralised music industry will benefit music as a whole compared to the utter crap most big companies produce these days. As far as I'm concerned they're distributing the music equivalent of monosodium glutamate: stuff that a large majority of people lap up but is nothing but embellishments upon hopeless crap.

I suppose it's their control of the music establishment that vexes me - something that the internet helps to abate, but it seems either insufficient or ineffective at the moment.

That said, I haven't participated in any piracy for quite a while. I wouldn't even want to steal the killers album; I'd just have to delete it afterwards.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 23:38   #116
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the difference being that you don't film yourself playing mario expecting to get paid.
But if you did, then that would mean you should be paid? If I expect to get paid for my efforts here on GD (or indeed, for simply being awesome) - are you seriously advocating that this means I should?
Quote:
should there not be the ability for those who wish to, say, dedicate their lives to writing music, to be able to sell their produce safe in the knowledge that people have to pay for it?
In practical terms, no matter how much it ires you, it's very difficult to *make* people pay for your efforts. People can lend your music to their friends (or at least, can at present) - you want a system of regulation which makes that impossible? Well, good luck with that.

No-one is saying you can't release an album and scream from the rooftops that anyone who listens to it must send a thousand pounds to your goodself. What I object to is using violence (in the form of the state) to enforce your loopy business models.

Quote:
but quite why every musician should have to adhere to such a system isn't something immediately obvious to me.
You can choose to be a musician who only plays for the five richest kings in Europe. I'm not concerned with that. No-one has to adhere to anything (except the general liberty principle) and no-one is forcing you to behave in a set way.
Quote:
no not really but it'd help undermine any kind of unifiying sentiment that you're fighting against the venal greed of big business in the name of artistic paladinship by being a part of such an organisation.
I don't recall that was ever their claim though. Press hyperbole (which is laughingly inaccurate) aside, I doubt the site did that much better than break even (once you factor in capital costs as well as the bandwidth). I'm sure there's some people out there who think that accepting donations to cover site costs is "selling out" but I'm not sure how seriously one would want to take those sort of charges.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 00:14   #117
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No-one is saying you can't release an album and scream from the rooftops that anyone who listens to it must send a thousand pounds to your goodself. What I object to is using violence (in the form of the state) to enforce your loopy business models.
That isn't what horn is saying (although I suspect you already know that). If an artist has spent time and money creating CDs to sell to people, is it fair that only 5 people buy their CDs (barely covering the overheads) and then 100 people get it for free? Perhaps; it depends if you are more concerned with spreading music to the masses or making a bit of cash. If these 100 people get your music without your permission, you have no say in that. So all those musicians who potentially could create earth shattering music - yet can't afford to as they can't afford all the costs of creating music - won't make any.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 00:16   #118
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Re: OiNK closed down...

I heard there was music before copyright laws once upon a time but I'm assuming that's just vicious slander perpetrated by piracy-loving scum.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 01:29   #119
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
MTV1, sure. What about MTV Base, MTV Dance, MTV Hits, MTV Two, MTV R, MTV Flux, VH1 UK, VH1 Classic UK? (...etc)
they're not even remotely as popular as mtv1 though, only during mtv's breaks in fact (for obvious reasons)
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 05:19   #120
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Re: OiNK closed down...

I found all the music channels pretty awful when we had cable.

I'd also say that if only 5 people wanted to buy a band's music and 100 people wanted to steal it then it's more the band's fault for producing mediocre music. Most people with enough disposable income will buy music; as he/she is normally skint your average university student will not.

By no longer forcing those in low income bands to buy music a music company's revenues will fall, but if you cut out them out of the loop decent bands will no longer help create and maintain crappy manufactured bands and will therefore receive their money directly along with retaining the rights to their music.

As far as I can see there is popular will for a restructuring of the music business and the companies that consist of the current structure are resisting that through the use of litigation on the ostensibly sound moral ground of thievery.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 11:31   #121
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I'd also say that if only 5 people wanted to buy a band's music and 100 people wanted to steal it then it's more the band's fault for producing mediocre music.
So people only download ("steal") music from mediocre artists?
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 13:29   #122
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Re: OiNK closed down...

what's that? all the 24/7 music channels put together get more combined viewings than a half hour show? i can definitely see what point you're making here
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 13:34   #123
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Re: OiNK closed down...

I can see how a study which explicitly states it shouldn't be generalised would lead you to generalise.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 13:59   #124
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Very good of you to play the white knight for lunatics, though.

White shirt more like!
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 16:05   #125
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yeah fair enough, getting the same ratings over a a longer period of time is easier to do but if you're using the demise in ratings of one tv show in britain as a reason to suggest that the "death of the single" isn't being caused largely due to piracy, well it isn't quite as strong when you notice multiple channels surviving on the delivery of.... singles music!

MTV makes it's money via crap reality TV programs NOT playing singles. This has already been stated. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PAY ATTENTION!



Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
lol! good way to completely ignore a studys findings buy finding a caveat on a published study that says "don't generalize". no, it isn't definitive but i'm fairly happy with the induction that others follow this trend to some extent.

Students only make up a small percentage of the total population. They are (generally) poor. Poor people are more likely to steal. As such you REALLY CANT use this data to generalise.

Also this data doesn't show that OVERALL (illegal) downloads are bad for musicians. I'd suggest that you are more likely to go and see a band you know and like. Now the opportunity to obtain their music for "free" (i.e. via illegal download) means you're more likely to know them. As such you're more likely to see them. In conclusion the band are more likely to make more money but they get this extra revenue via their live shows (and merchandise sold there) rather than through CD sales.

Now sure there could be the argument that there's a limit to the number of people who can come and see your gig whereas there's not really a limit to the number of songs sold but if you're selling out 50,000 seat arenas 364 days a year (and 365 days every leap year) then really you don't really need the money.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 18:31   #126
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_horn
again, it's up to them to decide if this is how they want to make their money.
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others to exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it focuses itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine.


PS See how I changed your name back to big_horn there.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 20:20   #127
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
So people only download ("steal") music from mediocre artists?
It's not wise to generalise on the whole population: "people". You really have to use subsets. As Gay You Are reiterated poor people are more likely to steal even from artist they view as above mediocre. The well off will steal from artists they either don't know that much about or don't have much of an opinion on. The wealthy and (and a small subset of the poor who are particularly devoted to a particular artist) will, however, shell out money to monetarily support an artist, especially if they feel they are directly in contact with an artist as opposed to directly in contact with the artist's record label which will keep a proportion of the sales and all the copyright itself (nearly all of the time).

Therefore CD sales will decrease. However, if you sell to your audience directly the decrease doesn't matter so much and as your band will have more exposure you are more likely to yield rewards in concert attendence, as already stated. This is to add to the aforementioned retention of copyright, which yields its own monetary benefits.

But I mostly support piracy as the break the music industry's monopoly on musical exposure / marketing / whatever the correct term is.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 00:02   #128
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
now that's fine, you might even get a few people signing up, but that isn't the same as posting here for all to see and then saying people have to pay a few months after making the posts. The same goes for the mario example.
Let's take the GD example. You're saying that a retrospective request for payment would be unreasonable. OK, I dig that. So henceforth please note : Anyone who reads posts made by myself after this point (BST 23:24 on 25th October 2007) must pay me £10 per post. Consider this due warning.

(Would that be reasonable?)

Quote:
Out of interest do you consider any business model holding intellectual property as a valid premise as loopy, or is it just the music industry?
Most business models rely on intellectual property in some form, even if it's just the protocols or procedures they've developed through the years. Not the sort of thing that shows up on balance sheets maybe, but certainly something which helps to "produce value" in a sense. That's not really the problem. I've always said that you're free to keep secrets, no-one is stopping you from doing that. The issue is releasing these things (be that songs, or jokes, or patents) into the public sphere and then expecting the state to help regulate who is allowed to laugh at a joke, or listen to a particular song.
Quote:
If an artist has spent time and money creating CDs to sell to people, is it fair that only 5 people buy their CDs (barely covering the overheads) and then 100 people get it for free? Perhaps; it depends if you are more concerned with spreading music to the masses or making a bit of cash. If these 100 people get your music without your permission, you have no say in that. So all those musicians who potentially could create earth shattering music - yet can't afford to as they can't afford all the costs of creating music - won't make any.
Does fairness come into it though? If we're trying to establish a fair economic system then I can think of a great many reforms required before we get to worry about this particular issue. And besides, you're mainly raising a practical issue, not an ethical one.

And pragmatically speaking, CD sales are a lousy way of funding new music creation. Such a low amount goes on that that if this was a charity it'd be one of those ones which regularly get investigated by the Charity Commission. There's estimates of as low as 3-10%, depending on the label. If you want to fund the creation of new music then on a practical level you'd be much better off supporting live music in your area, making donations to bands you like directly, or by supporting local schemes to offer studio/equipment time to kids for low/no cost (write to your local councillor and MPs on this anyway, it might help distract the kids from stabbing each other).
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 00:12   #129
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Most business models rely on intellectual property in some form, even if it's just the protocols or procedures they've developed through the years. Not the sort of thing that shows up on balance sheets maybe, but certainly something which helps to "produce value" in a sense. That's not really the problem. I've always said that you're free to keep secrets, no-one is stopping you from doing that. The issue is releasing these things (be that songs, or jokes, or patents) into the public sphere and then expecting the state to help regulate who is allowed to laugh at a joke, or listen to a particular song.
you are about halway to realising what an arse you have made of yourself over the last 5 years.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 13:34   #130
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
of interest is a graph on page 45 of that study which shows a steady decline in CD shipments from 2000 into 2003. (it doesn't start to rise after 2003, it just doesn't have the figures for the sales.)
I once told that the way the RIAA measured sales changed and that they actually sent out less copies of hit albums (so less got sent back or whatever) so even if sales went up the numbers would show a lowering of CD shipments.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 13:40   #131
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Let's take the GD example. You're saying that a retrospective request for payment would be unreasonable. OK, I dig that. So henceforth please note : Anyone who reads posts made by myself after this point (BST 23:24 on 25th October 2007) must pay me £10 per post. Consider this due warning.
Forum posts generally arent worth paying for but I'd happily buy a subscription to your blog if you updated it regularly.

Your point here is somewhat ridiculous though and your mario example reads like a perverse parody of the labour theory of value; saying that creators deserve to be paid if others consume their work doesnt imply that everyone who creates something should be paid for it, or that there should be a direct link between effort and financial reward. Noone is saying that you should send people who create mario videos money, unless you actually enjoy these videos a lot, download them to play them again, and so on.

Last edited by Nodrog; 26 Oct 2007 at 13:46.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 22:49   #132
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Re: OiNK closed down...

You, er, didn't really respond to what was said there.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 22:58   #133
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You, er, didn't really respond to what was said there.
he isn't capable.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 23:16   #134
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
saying that creators deserve to be paid if others consume their work doesnt imply that everyone who creates something should be paid for it, or that there should be a direct link between effort and financial reward.
But this is exactly what people do imply in such discussions. If we're not concerned with the social reward of effort, only of perceived value / enjoyment obtained, then why this oblgiation (legal/social or imagined) on only a certain narrow range of cultural products?

Mainly I'm a bitter grizzled lefty who cynically notes that while technological and social changes help to destabalising working communities leading to austerity and job losses, etc - well that's just the market. No point getting sentimental, TINA and all that. The invisible hand will decide if these communities have futures. But then when technological change is eroding the wealth and power of privileged groups then woah...let's slow things down a bit and start discussing what people "should" have to pay for, and what the state's role should be in regulating all this to ensure the positions of wealthy insitutions aren't threatened - I mean that a fair reward is obtained.
Quote:
Noone is saying that you should send people who create mario videos money, unless you actually enjoy these videos a lot, download them to play them again, and so on.
Of course they're not - my choice of that was deliberately one that no-one would seriously suggest supporting. And hell, if you spent every day of your life watching the stupid Mario video, it giving you the best times of your life, then while maybe you should have sent the guy a thank you letter (or a tenner) we'd stop from further condemnation because the idea that there is a social (or worse, legal) oblgiation on you is absurd.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 23:18   #135
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you are about halway to realising what an arse you have made of yourself over the last 5 years.
I can assure you my arse making started more than five years ago.
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 23:31   #136
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I can assure you my arse making started more than five years ago.
gracious of you to admit.

we are not so different
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 23:33   #137
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Re: OiNK closed down...

please don't feed the troll.
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Unread 27 Oct 2007, 14:05   #138
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
well i was once told that there's a big coverup in relation to aliens! the difference is i'm going to give you my source; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk (skip the first 3 minutes)
Firstly, the RIAA lies. They put bands that do not support the RIAA on a list of bands who do not support the RIAA (NOFX was the one that brought my attention to this). There there is nonsense like this.

And generally stuff like this.
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Unread 27 Oct 2007, 14:53   #139
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
They put bands that do not support the RIAA on a list of bands who do not support the RIAA
Oh my god!
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Unread 27 Oct 2007, 15:27   #140
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Re: OiNK closed down...

It's not. All it's taking about is the idea and the concept of property.
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Unread 27 Oct 2007, 17:24   #141
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Oh my god!
Clearly it's not the worst thing they've done. What it is is an indication that the RIAA are willing to decieve to make its case stronger.

Imagine the BNP published a list of high-profile supporters which included President Clinton, Nelson Mandela and Angelina Jolie. It may make people soften their view to their racist policies (if they support them then they can't be that bad etc...).

There is also the issue of whether these people would want to be associated with such an organisation at all and the potential damage that could be done to their reputation.

So whilst it's not quite on par with the ceremonial sacrificing of the newly born (which they save for private boardroom meetings) it is the purposeful distribution of lying propaganda to distort the publics image of the RIAA.

Whether or not you care about this, it is only the first lie out of many that the press willingly lap up and print with hardly any critical analysis. Once this kind of thing gets a wide public audience it's almost impossible to correct the opinion of everyone, intelectual property being what it is and all.
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Unread 27 Oct 2007, 17:35   #142
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Re: OiNK closed down...

I'm thinking you first typoed what you wanted to say, and then missed it when I quoted it. Either that or I'm completely missing your point.
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Unread 27 Oct 2007, 17:56   #143
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Bands who don't on a list that does.

Anyway, if you want to rage against an organisation go against PETA first, they actually support things like murder and arson rather than just stopping you downloading music.

They also kill animals, in a fit of irony.
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Unread 29 Oct 2007, 21:39   #144
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Bands who don't on a list that does.

Anyway, if you want to rage against an organisation go against PETA first, they actually support things like murder and arson rather than just stopping you downloading music.

They also kill animals, in a fit of irony.
Well, I was going to write a negative post about PETA but I thought it would be rather out of place in a thread about moves to stop file sharing websites.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 00:13   #145
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Oink helped independent labels and artists gain exposure and sales. EMI, Universal and so on don't care which major label your favourite artist is on, just as long as it balances out. When people are listening to Picastro instead of Jose Gonzales, or James Holden instead of Armand van Helden, the majors are in trouble because their dominance of conventional markets is challenged. Music 'piracy' (a ridiculous term when money isnt changing hands) is something these companies don't enjoy, but can deal with: People listening to more music and bypassing their ad campaigns is something that gives them cold sweats.


That's why OiNK took the hit rather than any of a thousand other, better targets - taking it down actually solves a problem for them.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 00:29   #146
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
Oink helped independent labels and artists gain exposure and sales. EMI, Universal and so on don't care which major label your favourite artist is on, just as long as it balances out. When people are listening to Picastro instead of Jose Gonzales, or James Holden instead of Armand van Helden, the majors are in trouble because their dominance of conventional markets is challenged. Music 'piracy' (a ridiculous term when money isnt changing hands) is something these companies don't enjoy, but can deal with: People listening to more music and bypassing their ad campaigns is something that gives them cold sweats.


That's why OiNK took the hit rather than any of a thousand other, better targets - taking it down actually solves a problem for them.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 11:24   #147
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
Oink helped independent labels and artists gain exposure and sales. EMI, Universal and so on don't care which major label your favourite artist is on, just as long as it balances out. When people are listening to Picastro instead of Jose Gonzales, or James Holden instead of Armand van Helden, the majors are in trouble because their dominance of conventional markets is challenged. Music 'piracy' (a ridiculous term when money isnt changing hands) is something these companies don't enjoy, but can deal with: People listening to more music and bypassing their ad campaigns is something that gives them cold sweats.


That's why OiNK took the hit rather than any of a thousand other, better targets - taking it down actually solves a problem for them.
phangtastic analysis of the situation right here
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 12:19   #148
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
People listening to more music and bypassing their ad campaigns is something that gives them cold sweats.
If these independent artists really want to give their music to the masses for free, nothing is stopping them. Lots of artists don't want to give their music away for free online (otherwise they would!) yet don't have a choice when people use torrents to take it.

Also, the concept of piracy is not ridiculous, as most of the controversy surrounding this is that the guy running Oink had supposedly received over a hundred thousand pounds in donations through paypal. So money was changing hands.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 12:59   #149
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Also, the concept of piracy is not ridiculous, as most of the controversy surrounding this is that the guy running Oink had supposedly received over a hundred thousand pounds in donations through paypal. So money was changing hands.
Even with conservative figures for hosting and bandwidth, he was making a loss. Remember he was working a full time job as well.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 14:32   #150
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Also, the concept of piracy is not ridiculous, as most of the controversy surrounding this is that the guy running Oink had supposedly received over a hundred thousand pounds in donations through paypal. So money was changing hands.
stop using this argument because you kee ignoring the fact that he didn't actually make a profit (or even close to one afaik), bbc and pretty much every news site apart from the guardian have basically been stating complete and utter lies about this (and generally anything to do with oink)
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