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Unread 8 Apr 2008, 21:36   #1
Gate
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Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

All of these have been previously discussed, are KISS compatible and low on coding demands. All of them improve the game in some way and IMO should be implemented for round 27.

Shorten protection to 36 ticks - Discussion
Shuffle now takes place at PT18. Planets start with more resources and the tech tree is restructured to allow planets to leave protection at the same level of development they currently do.

Reasoning:
- Protection loses the interest of new players & is plain boring
- Allows extra 'proper' gameplay time
- Still allows you to design your planet
- Continues to reward early activity

Restructure the scan tech tree - Discussion
All players now start with unit scans and a new scan, 'Defence Detection which is a jgp that only displays defence fleets on the same eta as your attack fleets and only works at eta 4 or less. Cloaked ships now appear on normal unit scans, although the other effects of cloaking remain intact.

Reasoning:
- Allows new, non-allied players to attack
- Being excluded from most of the game makes new players quit before they join the community
- Allies are still rewarded for having scan planets
- Xands are not unfairly advantaged

Change E/R to 'EMP armour' and condense guns/dmg - Discussion
'Guns' and 'Damage' become one column, with 'EMP resistance' changed to act like an 'EMP armour' (eg a ship with 5 E/R needs 5 EMP dmg to stun it). Normal damage is applied to a target's armour, EMP damage to its EMP resistance.

Reasoning:
- The current stats tables are cluttered & intimidating.
- Easier to analyse and more intuitive.
- Less work for the statsmaker.
- Sacrifices nothing in terms of stats depth.
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Last edited by Gate; 8 Apr 2008 at 22:27.
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Unread 8 Apr 2008, 22:33   #2
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Other possible suggestions.

Abolish alliance member limits, but use the current system of a certain # of planets contributing to tag score. Allows small 'elite' allies to stand a (slim) chance of victory but encourages alliances to take risks, provide more slots & encourage older players to return.

Abolish eonium to help declutter the stats tables. Have ter/zik cost more M and cat/etd cost more C. Edit roid formulae/income to take account of this - eg FC's income bonus now 0.75%. Doesn't add much to the game but it doesn't lose anything either. Makes the stats less intimidating.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 02:04   #3
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Abolish alliance member limits, but use the current system of a certain # of planets contributing to tag score. Allows small 'elite' allies to stand a (slim) chance of victory but encourages alliances to take risks, provide more slots & encourage older players to return.
This suggestion has problems which i dont think have been fully explored or fixed yet, though.

Quote:
Abolish eonium to help declutter the stats tables. Have ter/zik cost more M and cat/etd cost more C. Edit roid formulae/income to take account of this - eg FC's income bonus now 0.75%. Doesn't add much to the game but it doesn't lose anything either. Makes the stats less intimidating.
I'd like to see a slightly different system, whereby all ships cost "money". The manner in which planets gain resources is largely unchanged (M, C, E from roids etc). However the difference is that gathered resources are traded on a Universal or Cluster Marketplace, which uses the princple of Scarcity in a dynamic fashion to attribute different value to each resource, this value then being exchanged to the planet in Currency for the Resources. This is handy, as you can then take advantage of any universal shortages in M/C/E by exchanging the scarce resource for more Currency than it would otherwise be worth.

Further, you can set up a system whereby planets can use piracy to capture those resources, and/or you need to escort those resources before you can actually spend them. I went into both of these in alot more detail in my Treatise on the development board.

The bad thing is, none of this is quick and easy to code. My point was that you can still have purpose for more types of resources.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 02:23   #4
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

interesting this marketplace idea especially if it's based on cluster and why not takes into account the internal peace/war situation to fix the exchange rate.

Do i understand right, everybody will have unit scans at start and cloaked ships will be visible there ?
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 02:44   #5
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
Do i understand right, everybody will have unit scans at start and cloaked ships will be visible there ?
Indeed. I dont mind the Unit scans at the start. Its actually a good idea as it helps people get out attacking right from the start of the round.

However, i think it (further) emasculates Xan; they seem to keep loosing any cloaking advantage at every turn. Having a mid-tier adv unit scan would still make the cloaking a temporary advantage without being too overpowered, but its still a useful advantage to have. Remember, other races get cool bonuses such as faster research and construction, whilst Xan looses research speed in order to pay for their cloaking "advantage" - if you keep reducing that advantage, then consider re-assessing the (rather annoying large) research penalty that goes with it.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 02:53   #6
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Sov pretty much sums up the perpetual nerfing of Xan over the last several rounds.


Though I do rather like the stats this round, I think the general concept of the races has been fairly well bastardized to the point where the races (as they currently are) resemble very little their "roots" and fundamental characteristics.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 07:39   #7
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

AU scans come out at tick 123. That's 51 ticks of cloak. What exactly are we talking about here?
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 08:13   #8
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
AU scans come out at tick 123. That's 51 ticks of cloak. What exactly are we talking about here?
That not the entire universe has access to AU scans at tick 123 and alot of them don't have AU scan all round long (they depend on ally scanners).

The xan cloak + the ability to fake is all they've got left really. They've allready lost their fast init to other races but did keep the low armor making them very vulnerable.
If you take away their cloak then you might aswell take the race itself out...

Basicly I agree with what Cochese said that races have been bastardised and hardly resemble their ancestors from older rounds.

The way I think it should be:
Terran: weaker against small ships, good BS fleet, mediocre DE fleet
Cath: strong offence, weaker defence, mediocre co, good CR
Xan: fast init (only thing faster is cath emp) for the smaller ships, higher init vs big ships (such as BS), good fi fleet, mediocre fr fleet
Zik: weaker offence, strong defence, weak attackfleets that require stolen ships to become effective

The only problem with history is that ETD hasn't been around long enough, but I can tell you that I think:
giving them some ships that act like cath ships, some that act like zik, some that act like xan ,... is kinda gay imo.
That's not what I would define as a race.
Either find some unique abilities for them or remove them completly
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 08:28   #9
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

That not the entire universe has access to AU scans at tick 123 and alot of them don't have AU scan all round long (they depend on ally scanners).[/quote]
And the people who don't have such convenient access to an alliance scanner? What do you want to do with them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
The xan cloak + the ability to fake is all they've got left really. They've allready lost their fast init to other races but did keep the low armor making them very vulnerable.
If you take away their cloak then you might aswell take the race itself out...
We're not taking away their cloak, don't be so dramatic. Xans strenght lies primarily in faking. The first few days of the round where no one knows what exactly a Xan has are largely irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Basicly I agree with what Cochese said that races have been bastardised and hardly resemble their ancestors from older rounds.

The way I think it should be:
Terran: weaker against small ships, good BS fleet, mediocre DE fleet
Cath: strong offence, weaker defence, mediocre co, good CR
Xan: fast init (only thing faster is cath emp) for the smaller ships, higher init vs big ships (such as BS), good fi fleet, mediocre fr fleet
Zik: weaker offence, strong defence, weak attackfleets that require stolen ships to become effective
Should, should, should. Why. Why are you so obessed with 'unique' abilities, why do you feel every round's stats should be similar, why are you (and almost everyone with you) so opposed to radical changes in the stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
The only problem with history is that ETD hasn't been around long enough, but I can tell you that I think:
giving them some ships that act like cath ships, some that act like zik, some that act like xan ,... is kinda gay imo.
That's not what I would define as a race.
Either find some unique abilities for them or remove them completly
Etd no longer has steal ships. I think the combination of emp and cloak is pretty interesting.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 09:14   #10
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

I am against the scans for xan cloaked ships. Complaining about xan cloaked ships is just about as stupid as complaining about cath empage, zik stealing.. etd.. erm.. dancing, and terrans heavy armor. Keep that as it is now. It's not an unfair advantage really. Other than that, really nice suggestions that I think should be considered implemented.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 09:17   #11
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Should, should, should. Why. Why are you so obessed with 'unique' abilities, why do you feel every round's stats should be similar, why are you (and almost everyone with you) so opposed to radical changes in the stats?
Caus I believe in a simple thing: Don't fix something that isn't broken.

I could easily turn the question around. Why do you (and many others with you) want radically different shipstats every round?
Change for the sake of change?
To be honest the last 10 rounds or so I think that has been the case (and I'm not talking about just shipstats). Everything needs to change every round.
It kinda resembles a blind squirrel, running around in all directions but doesn't have a ****ing clue where it's going...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Etd no longer has steal ships. I think the combination of emp and cloak is pretty interesting.
Not this round, but with everything changing every round who knows what next round will bring...
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 09:34   #12
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Caus I believe in a simple thing: Don't fix something that isn't broken.
When I say change the stats, I don't mean fix the stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
I could easily turn the question around. Why do you (and many others with you) want radically different shipstats every round?
Where did I say I wanted radical changes every round?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Change for the sake of change?
Change for the sake of relieving boredom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
To be honest the last 10 rounds or so I think that has been the case (and I'm not talking about just shipstats). Everything needs to change every round.
It kinda resembles a blind squirrel, running around in all directions but doesn't have a ****ing clue where it's going...
Here we agree, if would be nice if someone could be responsible for the longterm strategy of Planetarion. Preferably not a complete idiot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Not this round, but with everything changing every round who knows what next round will bring...
Hang on, let me get my tea leaves and tarot cards.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 11:55   #13
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I am against the scans for xan cloaked ships. Complaining about xan cloaked ships is just about as stupid as...
Changing the scan tree to the OP's system would lead to an extra benefit to xands.

Current system:
- players who don't have access to scans can't hit anything.
- Players who are in an alliance can hit anything, but there's a ~60 tick period at the beginning where they can't hit xands due to lack of AUs *

New system WHILST MAINTAINING CLOAKING:
- players who don't have access to scans can hit anything that's not xan
- players who're in an alliance now get 60 extra ticks of hitting xands.

All races except xan are likely to receive more incoming. Relative to other races, xands have gained an advantage at a tiny cost. Hence why I currently think cloaked ships should appear on units under this system.




* although our cath CO hit xands from PT72 this round, and S/T scans let CR/BS rushers hit xands.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 12:33   #14
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Er, by the new system everyone will have access to scans.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 13:00   #15
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Er, by the new system everyone will have access to scans.
I think my post said that. :S

I said that with everyone having access to scans, IF YOU DON'T CHANGE CURRENT CLOAK system, that xans would gain a major advantage they don't currently have.

This is why cloaked ships should appear on unit scans, to maintain balance. The cost to xans from doing this is small and therefore it can be justified.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 13:07   #16
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate^
New system WHILST MAINTAINING CLOAKING:
- players who don't have access to scans can hit anything that's not xan
Everyone will be able to hit everything including xan, because players without access to unit scans won't exist, and unit scans show cloaked ships.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 13:40   #17
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Everyone will be able to hit everything including xan, because players without access to unit scans won't exist, and unit scans show cloaked ships.
I don't think I was clear enough...


Kargool & others seem opposed to cloaked ships appearing on unit scans. My replies stated what it would mean IF CLOAKED SHIPS ___DO NOT___ APPEAR ON UNIT SCANS IN THE NEW SYSTEM.

ie. everyone has unit scans, but cloaked ships do not appear on them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
New system WHILST MAINTAINING CLOAKING:
- players who don't have access to scans can hit anything that's not xan
- players who're in an alliance now get 60 extra ticks of hitting xands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I said that with everyone having access to scans, IF YOU DON'T CHANGE CURRENT CLOAK system, that xans would gain a major advantage they don't currently have.


This major advantage is not justifiable IMO, and this is why CLOAKED SHIPS ___SHOULD___ APPEAR ON UNIT SCANS UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM. My first reply also qualifies why this is, relatively speaking, not a huge loss for xands.


*relative to other races
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 14:01   #18
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Summarising all those suggestions in one post was a terrible terrible idea, as I fear most will get lost as conversation digresses to one particular idea/line of thought.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 14:27   #19
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

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Originally Posted by Kenny
Summarising all those suggestions in one post was a terrible terrible idea, as I fear most will get lost as conversation digresses to one particular idea/line of thought.
All 3 have related discussion threads which I believe reached 3 near-finalised ideas.

The other option was starting a new thread for each individual one which could be constituted as spam; or bumping the original threads which would require either disjointing the discussion by editing original suggestions (one of which I can't edit anyway), or relying on people reading an entire discussion before contributing.

I felt this was worth a shot.
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Unread 9 Apr 2008, 14:55   #20
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Ok, I misunderstood. Sorry.
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Unread 10 Apr 2008, 01:49   #21
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

so Xans will have visible cloaked ships... interesting concept, next i suggest emp that kill and steal that stuns.
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Unread 10 Apr 2008, 04:42   #22
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
so Xans will have visible cloaked ships... interesting concept, next i suggest emp that kill and steal that stuns.
haha, comedy



Gate, i'm not understanding you. Sorry, but this happens alot with me as i dont understand things, or people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I said that with everyone having access to scans, IF YOU DON'T CHANGE CURRENT CLOAK system, that xans would gain a major advantage they don't currently have.This is why cloaked ships should appear on unit scans, to maintain balance. The cost to xans from doing this is small and therefore it can be justified.
You said this, however you mentioned that your alliance gets around the lack of being able to see Xan cloaked ships by using a combination of;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
* although our cath CO hit xands from PT72 this round, and S/T scans let CR/BS rushers hit xands.
Weakness to heavy ships and Cathaar is typical for the Xan "race" (such as it is, now), as such it would be reasonable to assume that some combination of other scans or just using retal with heavier ships that would normally be countered by home ships that would typically be on attack, or whatever, would result in a level of near-normal attacking activity against Xans when compared to other races - a level that would rise to the rough standard by tick 123 (or less, given earlier scans) of Adv Unit scans.

Thus, i put it to you that the advantage of early xan cloaking isnt actually as significant as you implied that it was, insofar as there are a number of methods around it. Assuming that the advantage isnt as good, then the penalty for having that advantage shouldnt be as high either.

I still think having Cloaked ships not appear on normal Unit scans is fair given the large research penalty for having that 'advantage', relativism aside. Etd has all of the racial bonuses of xan, plus being able to build EMP ships, with no research penalty.


At the end of the day, i suppose it would be hard to prove either theory empirically given large fluctuations between rounds, but I think that we disagree to what extent Xan would benefit from initial Unit scans (that dont show cloaking).
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Unread 10 Apr 2008, 10:35   #23
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Thus, i put it to you that the advantage of early xan cloaking isnt actually as significant as you implied that it was, insofar as there are a number of methods around it.
I think we agree here.

Under the current system, xands don't benefit a huge amount from cloaked ships not being on unit scans. Because the people who currently have access to unit scans are the people with access to scanners who will have S/T and will also have AUs pretty quickly too. Having cloaked ships appear on unit scans is barely an advantage atm.

However, if everyone has access to D & U scans & if cloaked ships remain hidden from unit scans then people who don't currently have scan access will now be able to attack every race except xand (& possibly etd). Every other race will be given a relative disadvantage.

Allowing cloaked stuff to be seen on unit scans prevents gifting xands this major advantage; and removes a current advantage that is small.

Quote:
Assuming that the advantage isnt as good, then the penalty for having that advantage shouldnt be as high either.
Under the current system it's barely an advantage: it delays attacks from 1 group of players by ~60 ticks or so, and only then in some cases.

Under a new system with universal D/U scan access, (smaller) xands would suddenly have a much larger advantage that I don't think can be justified.

Perhaps there should be a reduction in xan's research penalty or something to make up for it, but generally they get around it by not having to research CR/BS...
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Unread 10 Apr 2008, 11:11   #24
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Allowing cloaked stuff to be seen on unit scans prevents gifting xands this major advantage; and removes a current advantage that is small.
You essentially completely misunderstood me.

Nice try though!
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Unread 10 Apr 2008, 15:09   #25
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Perhaps there should be a reduction in xan's research penalty or something to make up for it, but generally they get around it by not having to research CR/BS...
Well, then you are not building the PeaceKeeper. At start I completely disliked the idea of this ship. Untill I realized it was also anti-CR. Now having got them for an while (without any real benefit sadly) I must say that the idea to be less vulnerable for BS is a good thing. *BUT* the cost was that it took me some 50+ turns to research, which i normally spend researching roid tech or Hypergate.

In hindsight, i might have better NOT researched the Peacekeeper and got myself the Hypergate eaerlier..

XANS now need to research the full techtree PLUS having an penalty in slower research.. I would say, get rid of the penalty now.
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Unread 11 Apr 2008, 03:41   #26
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

In response to Gate's panicked message that he doesnt understand me, i'll try to be a bit more clear wrt post #22 in this thread.

Situation A; where cloaked ships do not show up on Unit scans but everyone starts with Unit scans. This is the position that I favour
Situation B; where cloaked ships do show up on Unit scans and everyone starts with Unit scans. This is the position that Gate favours.
Situation C; which is the current environment whereby cloaked ships to not show up on Unit scans, and no-one starts with Unit scans.

Gate's argument was that by moving from Situation C to situation A, there would be a significant advantage for Xans who would receive less incoming due to the fact that no-one can properly scan them and thus would prefer non-xan targets - less incoming means more early round roid income which is important to get a head start.

I rejected that argument, stating that I thought that methods that were currently used to attack Xans in Situation C would simply be used in the Situation A environment, which can serve to bypass some of the deficiencies in information required to take advantage of the Xan's assumed higher roidcount (given their supposed less incoming).

As such, i believed that there was a case for Situation A to be implemented as, acknowledging that it would provide Xans (and presumably Etd to a lesser extent) with an advantage, I argued that this advantage would be small and very limited in time; fair recompense for their massive 15%* reduction in research speed which is of particular importance at the start of the round.

However, the case of Situation B, which Gate advocates, would mean that Xans receive almost no benefit from their cloaking at all whatsoever, yet still suffer perhaps the worst racial "advantage" amongst all. I believed that this was not 'fair', given that my perception of the advantages between Situation C and A had already shrunk, and that Situation B essentially emasculated Xan to a point of no racial advantage at all except a large research penalty.

Further, i believe that the whole "but Xans dont need to research Ship Hulls 3" argument is complete tosh. Firstly, Xans who build anti BA ships (which their Cruisers typically are) will get less incoming than those who dont, and secondly the stats are a variable thing; next round they might have to research Ships 3 as a necessity. What happens then? I doubt that the scan tree would be altered to 'fix' this greater disparity.

Thus, Situation A is imo viable, and the fair outcome going forward.

*Remember, that this 15% is all encompassing; research labs, population settings and so on are only 85% as effective as all other races - its not just their base rate, the multiplier is attached at the end which thus reduces everything.
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Unread 11 Apr 2008, 05:38   #27
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

I agree with Kargool...complaining about cloaked ships is the same as complaining about steals or heavy armour or emps. Unit scans at the beginning would be nice but if that happens, then to initiate other scans should take a few extra ticks otherwise ally scanners would be 100% on all their scans too early in the game. honestly im a fan of situation C.
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Unread 11 Apr 2008, 09:41   #28
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Situation A is almost the same as Situation C.

In Situation C, almost everyone has access to unit scans. I have never seen an alliance who didn't have a scanner with unit scans at tick 72. Furthermore, unit scans cost about 43 ticks to research (assuming a paid planet), so the advantage for planets with an alliances is rather minor. Keeping planets from seeing cloaked ships will, in the later stages of the round, make (keep) them vulnerable to Xan and Etd incomings, as well as Zik.

In short, Situation A doesn't help at all.

I also think you and Kargool are underestimating the advantage Xan has later in the round. That said, I wouldn't oppose a boost in Xan research speed to for example 90 or 95 percent, because it seems to me most races (cath is an exception, an a minor one at that) have no real disadvantages. The stats should not be balanced using race characteristics.


exblade, you're missing the point of this suggestion. We want to get rid of the need for alliance scanners.
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Unread 12 Apr 2008, 10:52   #29
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Situation A is almost the same as Situation C.
That's right - however the point of Situation A over the current environment Situation C is that everyone has Unit scans so players both new and old are much more able to begin attacking right from the get go, rather than having to rely on alliance scanners and/or attacking blind if they dont have an alliance/active alliance scanner. More attacking = more fun which was the point of the game.

I argued for Situation A over Situation B given that Unit scans were introduced for everyone as I felt that B would emasculate Xans too much (again).

Quote:
Keeping planets from seeing cloaked ships will, in the later stages of the round, make (keep) them vulnerable to Xan and Etd incomings, as well as Zik.
This isnt correct, as by later stages in the game many people would have had a good opportunity to progress to Advanced Unit scans and/or have alliance scanners (including most DCs and a much higher proportion of their memberbase able to do at least low-amp scanning) by then. This part of the suggestion does not apply to late game, only whether Cloaked ships show up on (basic) Unit scans.

Quote:
I also think you and Kargool are underestimating the advantage Xan has later in the round.
This may or may not be true. I found Xan to be very much a "Crash or crash through" kind of race, which means that they run into serious trouble at some point. But by later stages of the game, Adv Units and Fleet scans are more available so its not so problematic.

Gate and I were arguing over initial out-of-protection and early round issues predominately.

Quote:
That said, I wouldn't oppose a boost in Xan research speed to for example 90 or 95 percent, because it seems to me most races (cath is an exception, an a minor one at that) have no real disadvantages. The stats should not be balanced using race characteristics.
Concurrence here .


Quote:
exblade, you're missing the point of this suggestion. We want to get rid of the need for alliance scanners.
We do? I thought the point was to increase the levels of early attacking for the less connected? But i suppose the role of alliance scanners would change to just high-amp planets (who scan alot), rather than being uber rush-to-unit-then-jgp-then-advunit-scan-planets-with-loads-of-amps.
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Unread 12 Apr 2008, 11:40   #30
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Fair enough, the only counter to a distwhore is still knowing someone with a lot of amps; normal players won't build them. But with the increase in use of SKs and info blackout, I expect that the percentage of distwhores (in relation to the total number of planets) will never again reach the levels it did last round, so there'll be less of a need for high-amp scanners.

I kind of assumed you agreed with me that we should get rid of the need of alliance scanners, but in hindsight, I remembered it was Achi (and possibly dec, I'm not sure) who first advocated that position.

As for Gate's and your focus on the early stages of the round, I think that's a mistake. New players don't sign up at tick 0, but throughout the round, from tick 0 until far into havoc, and it's these players that will have most benefit from this suggestion.

I disagree with your view of Xan's philosophy. Yes, if you so choose you can just send your entire fleet to people and hope there's no defence, and that will certainly work every now and then. However, I don't think Xan's strengths lie in brute force, simply because their armor (and recently, init) are not suitable for it.

Instead, I prefer using faking to get me roids. Co-as-De fleets, Fi+Co pod fleets, simple pod-only fleets... As long as you find someone without FA (or with fewer amps than you have dists, which are viable, since you have 115 base con points), you can pull off all sorts of interesting maneuvers, most of which are considerable less risky and more likely to get through than ordinary fleets. Not to mention the fact that fake def doesn't usually work against fake attacks.



P.S. I'm enjoying this rather a lot; it's nice to have a discussion with people who can actually think.
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Unread 12 Apr 2008, 11:52   #31
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Fair enough, the only counter to a distwhore is still knowing someone with a lot of amps; normal players won't build them. But with the increase in use of SKs and info blackout, I expect that the percentage of distwhores (in relation to the total number of planets) will never reach the levels it did last round, so there'll be less of a need for high-amp scanners.
I didnt play last round, so i didnt experience that comedy (though usually as a DC i have a relatively high number of amps but not as much as scanners). Still, was it fun?

Quote:
I kind of assumed you agreed with me that we should get rid of the need of alliance scanners, but in hindsight, I remembered it was Achi (and possibly dec, I'm not sure) who first advocated that position.
Well, I'm not sure that i have an opinion either way. Tbh, i think i would have much prefered the situation as per rounds past when you had a choice between Hyperspace and Military scans and due to less co-operation within alliances and galaxies it was relatively hard to find Mil scans when you needed them. But that's from a different era, so its no longer relvent. But doing your own scans would be better imo (as then you need to balance the need for good information with resource optimisation (and security) which would be more challenging i would havbe thought).

Quote:
As for Gate and your focus on the early stages of the round, I think that's a mistake. New players don't generally sign up at tick0, but throughout the round, from tick0 until far into havoc, and it's these players that will have most benefit from this suggestion.
That's a good point - however, i think what the suggestion was is that everyone starts with Unit scans, which would presumably benefit everyone as at the aboslute least that means there is less stuff to research in order to get a useful scan (ie critical information to start attacking, or at least scanning incoming).

As such, when the alternative is no scan tech (or whatever the late-start-benefit says is cool, which is often P/S/T and only extremely late round would get U from the get go), then having at least some scans is a good thing, surely? How could it be a negative?

Quote:
I disagree with your view of Xan's philosophy. Yes, if you so choose you can just send your entire fleet to people and hope there's no defence, and that will certainly work every now and then. However, I don't think Xan's strengths lie in brute force, simply because their armor (and recently, init) are not suitable for it.
Well, yes. What i said was more akin to 'old skool' Xan where their low armour but high damage and good init meant that you had to kill the enemy essentially outright before they could fire, or you would just die (and thus should recall). Granted, that's changed as now Xan has medium firepower, average init and low armour (thus, avoiding anything resembling battle seems like a good idea).

Thus, the faking strategies that you outlined (which were very good) would be the only course(s) of action to persue.

Still, I think universe-access to basic Unit scans which show all cloaked ships would reduce the ability to do said faking, which imo is a bad thing given how shit Xan is compared to everyone else at the moment. Then again, perhaps i'm just being stubborn and populist?

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Unread 12 Apr 2008, 14:54   #32
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
New players don't generally sign up at tick0, but throughout the round, from tick0 until far into havoc, and it's these players that will have most benefit from this suggestion.
That's the idea.

I'm not advocating removal of scan planets completely; I'm rather enjoying scanning this round and I think distwhoring is an acceptable tactic.

Rather, I think everyone should be able to attack (which requires unit & defence detection), but that scanners should offer alliances advantages; such as being able to scan distwhores and for eg news scans to detect fakes, P/S scans to detect potential production & AUs for precision calcing...


For cloaked ships/unit scans thing: In the current system, if someone has access to scans it's most likely via a scanner, and there's only ~60 ticks before they'll have AUs. Xands gain very little from cloaked stuff hiding from U scans - the faking opportunities outweigh this by an order of magnitude.

However, they would gain a significant advantage if U scans were available from the outset and cloaked ships didn't appear on them. The player from the previous paragraph may be able to hit xands a day earlier (which is of little consequence), but the rest of a xan's round wouldn't be affected.

However, the new player who doesn't have access to scans can now attack anyone except xans. This is a significant boost to xans relative to other races & IMO can't be justified.
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Unread 12 Apr 2008, 16:57   #33
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I didnt play last round, so i didnt experience that comedy (though usually as a DC i have a relatively high number of amps but not as much as scanners). Still, was it fun?
Being the trendsetters that we were, I and my BP actually distwhored a round before most of Ascendancy did it. And yes, it was fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
That's a good point - however, i think what the suggestion was is that everyone starts with Unit scans, which would presumably benefit everyone as at the aboslute least that means there is less stuff to research in order to get a useful scan (ie critical information to start attacking, or at least scanning incoming).

As such, when the alternative is no scan tech (or whatever the late-start-benefit says is cool, which is often P/S/T and only extremely late round would get U from the get go), then having at least some scans is a good thing, surely? How could it be a negative?
I'm just saying it's a mistake to only look at the early stages of the round, and ignore the consequences for late starters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Still, I think universe-access to basic Unit scans which show all cloaked ships would reduce the ability to do said faking, which imo is a bad thing given how shit Xan is compared to everyone else at the moment. Then again, perhaps i'm just being stubborn and populist?
AU scans don't really have an impact on Xan's ability to fake. FA does, assuming the planet has a decent amount of amps, and these are thus usually the ones not getting faked upon.

Don't get me wrong, given a choice between A and C, I'd pick A without a second thought. However, I think that, compared to B, A really changes very little, and thus I would prefer B.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'm not advocating removal of scan planets completely; I'm rather enjoying scanning this round and I think distwhoring is an acceptable tactic.

Rather, I think everyone should be able to attack (which requires unit & defence detection), but that scanners should offer alliances advantages; such as being able to scan distwhores and for eg news scans to detect fakes, P/S scans to detect potential production & AUs for precision calcing...
Agreed.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 13 Apr 2008, 09:01   #34
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Don't get me wrong, given a choice between A and C, I'd pick A without a second thought. However, I think that, compared to B, A really changes very little, and thus I would prefer B.
So, why would you prefer B over A? What i've been arguing over for what seems quite a while is that i prefer A over B. So, care to elaborate (without any of the other distractions such as FA and scanners in general? ).
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Unread 13 Apr 2008, 09:40   #35
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I think everyone should be able to attack (which requires unit & defence detection), but that scanners should offer alliances advantages; such as being able to scan distwhores and for eg news scans to detect fakes, P/S scans to detect potential production & AUs for precision calcing...
This basically sums it up. That, and the conviction that it should not be necessary for people to gimp their planets in order for others to be able to play "for real".
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 13 Apr 2008, 09:42   #36
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
This basically sums it up. That, and the conviction that it should not be necessary for people to gimp their planets in order for others to be able to play "for real".
A and B both do that. So what makes B better than A?
Do you see the 'advantage' for Xans that Gate sees as major or at best temporary?
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Unread 13 Apr 2008, 10:24   #37
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

B is better because it means that everyone is scannable and attackable, instead of everyone except Xan and Etd.

In that view, yes, I see the advantage for those 2 races. It won't mean the entire top300 will be Xan, nor that at the end of the round, Xan players will say "Wow, I really got little incoming this round!"
But yes, I think it will have an impact.

Do you agree with the statement that, (allowing for exceptions, such as distwhores), everyone should be able to attack and defend without the help of dedicated scan planets?
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 10:26   #38
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

MZ: why do we have races if they mean anything? Just give same units for everyone to choose from. Add enough various working fleet options to build. I am up for it anytime...

I would like to support races that mean something unless we want to remove them completely. Possible ideas to develope races in to:
1 faster eta, weaker armour
2 slower eta , harder armour
3 low init (emp), weaker
4 slow init, good flak, easy roid, low kills
5 steal units, weaker, but cheaper
6 scan/covert specialized race
7 cloaked race
8 Defence specialized race for new/random players
9 Strong low init offence, low armour
10 Good scan/covert or emp resistance

divide these or anything u come up with the curent 5 races... each gets 2 qualities.

Gate I dont understand your point either... what u are telling means imo: xans are scannable by all from the start, as u have units scans from the start, which show all cloaked ships also from the start. So xans dont have any advantage, unless u add them some higher scan resistance or make the scans on them come up as unaccurate, which could work out... then they would have the advantage of cloaked during whole round, or untill someone searches special scans to detect all cloaked units.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 10:39   #39
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Cloak ships have more advantages than not showing up on unit scans.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure what you're on about, nor how it connects to anything we've said in this thread.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 12:08   #40
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave
Gate I dont understand your point either... what u are telling means imo: xans are scannable by all from the start, as u have units scans from the start, which show all cloaked ships also from the start. So xans dont have any advantage,
It's incorrect to say 'xans dont have any advantage'.

They still don't appear on incoming analysis or on overview; they can still send 0-ship defence fleets and maintain the absolutely wonderful faking opportunities they have now. Which is the BIG advantage of cloak. Not appearing on unit scans is minor.

Alliances have advanced unit scans from ~PT130 or something anyway. That's 3 out-of-protection days where xans as a whole gain a small advantage. This is a negligible benefit.

However, if everyone has unit scans and cloaked ships don't appear on them, then xands are suddenly given an advantage. Non-allied xans can attack everyone, but they can't be attacked back by other non-allied players. I don't think xans should be given this advantage; cloak already provides wondrous faking opportunities.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 13:05   #41
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Cloak ships have more advantages than not showing up on unit scans.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure what you're on about, nor how it connects to anything we've said in this thread.
ok, fair enough... I keep hiding the ships from scans as one of the most important gain tho, even it is a short one. Also there aint allways alliance scanners online... when u have to send def blind.

Should, should, should. Why. Why are you so obessed with 'unique' abilities, why do you feel every round's stats should be similar, why are you (and almost everyone with you) so opposed to radical changes in the stats?

That was what I tried to explain above...
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 13:27   #42
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Ok, now at least I understend the context of your post. However, you still have not given a rational argument explaining why racial idenities should be unchanging.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 13:49   #43
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Ok, now at least I understend the context of your post. However, you still have not given a rational argument explaining why racial idenities should be unchanging.
It looks like Ave is just in favour of differentiated races (a good thing IMO; that's interesting), not about keeping them the same every round or what they 'should' be about.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 15:17   #44
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Yes. So he's answering a different question than the one I asked.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 15:18   #45
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
It looks like Ave is just in favour of differentiated races (a good thing IMO; that's interesting), not about keeping them the same every round or what they 'should' be about.
IMO there are 2 options:

1) Going for a tech tree where every1 starts with the same basic units & you can research what you want, upgrading your ships as you go further down the techtree.

2) Going for a model like we have now with 5 (or less / or more) unique races with their own abilitities, if you go down this road I believe it is vital that each race keeps their own unique abilities and the foundations of these races aren't changed every round.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 19:42   #46
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Ok, now at least I understend the context of your post. However, you still have not given a rational argument explaining why racial idenities should be unchanging.
Well you have in no way said or even hinted that u want to change racial identies, which can be done ofc. You just wana mix/re-new the stats -> when the races loses their unique elements and status, some changes can't be made because some races would be overpowered or lose their unique status or their original gain.

and if u are gona break their gains or different status towards other races, then we can get rid of the races completely as they are no use.
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Unread 14 Apr 2008, 20:31   #47
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Actually, I did hint at changing racial identities, namely here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Why are you so obessed with 'unique' abilities, why do you feel every round's stats should be similar, why are you (and almost everyone with you) so opposed to radical changes in the stats?
(ironically you quoted this very passage a few posts back)

I'm quite aware that some (most) of the countless possible changes will screw up the balance of the stats. I have however not suggested any concrete set of stats, so this objection is really quite premature.


On a sidenote, I personally would have no problems with replacing each race's unique ships with a set of say, 20 ships, which every race can use. This solves any and all problems with stats balancing, and makes for an increase in the overall number of possible strategies.

In any case this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, so I'll leave it at this.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 15 Apr 2008, 10:47   #48
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

You are just stating that you are up for radical changes, not directly telling what they are or what they should change. But maybe it is just my english failing me.

Anyway I think we have an understanding now
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Unread 15 Apr 2008, 11:16   #49
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

No, what I was doing was disagreeing with VdM, who suggested that racial identities should never change. This I disagree with in the strongest possible terms. I'm not saying we should change every possible detail of the stats for next round, just for the sake of change, but to in advance say that one disagrees with all radical change, without even considering what those changes might be, or their impact on the game, is at best short sighted, and at worst purposefully freezing the development of the game.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 15 Apr 2008, 12:44   #50
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Re: Summary of currently suggested improvements for round 27

Stagnant societies are the first to fail, after all .

I think what Myz is talking about is that racial abilities/specialisations should be able to change over time. Ave? and et al are arguing that there should be differences between races (presumably at any given time). Thus, there is no mutual exclusiveness here; have races that are different to eachother, but the form those differences can take are able to change over time (generally slowly in order to enhance continuity, but that's not critical as its all just fiction at the end of the day anyway).

Xan is perhaps the race that has changed the most; from somewhere clearly early hard hitting low armour with good cloaking, to something much less clearly defined. Old Xan players like me find this hard to adapt to and thus cling to old notions of cloaking and etc, but provided that the races are balanced then there shouldnt really be any concern.

Continuity would be nice though .
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