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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 12:37   #1
Gate
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Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

A minor suggestion, but if it's simple enough to code it could tidy up and simplify the stats tables.

Firstly; change the damage table to number of guns, and set all guns (including EMP) to 1 damage. This makes the dmg column redundant, it can be removed.

Change EMP resistance so that it is effectively EMP armour. Eg if a ship has E/R of 5, it takes 5 EMP guns to stun it.

This allows the stats maker to alter EMP resistance independently of normal armour (important for stats balance), but makes reading and calcing the stats far more intuitive and easier for players to understand. The current system is a relic and I don't see the benefit of it.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 14:29   #2
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Agreed.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 17:44   #3
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Agreed.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 17:45   #4
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 18:26   #5
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

I agree
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 18:52   #6
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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I agree
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 23:46   #7
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by Gate
A minor suggestion, but if it's simple enough to code it could tidy up and simplify the stats tables.

Firstly; change the damage table to number of guns, and set all guns (including EMP) to 1 damage. This makes the dmg column redundant, it can be removed.

Change EMP resistance so that it is effectively EMP armour. Eg if a ship has E/R of 5, it takes 5 EMP guns to stun it.

This allows the stats maker to alter EMP resistance independently of normal armour (important for stats balance), but makes reading and calcing the stats far more intuitive and easier for players to understand. The current system is a relic and I don't see the benefit of it.
Potentially it should just be hunting through all the lines of code and updating a few bits and pieces, and a change of the database. Offhand, it'll probably take the best part of a day from start to finish (database changes, changes to production and all the mouseovers, bug testing, fixing all the places I missed it the first time) and I can see why you would like it done.
It really depends where we can squeeze time in to do it - I'd almost rather spend a day sorting out e.g. quests than this, and that's the only thing I can hold against it really.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 23:53   #8
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Potentially it should just be hunting through all the lines of code and updating a few bits and pieces, and a change of the database. Offhand, it'll probably take the best part of a day from start to finish (database changes, changes to production and all the mouseovers, bug testing, fixing all the places I missed it the first time) and I can see why you would like it done.
It really depends where we can squeeze time in to do it - I'd almost rather spend a day sorting out e.g. quests than this, and that's the only thing I can hold against it really.
Give that Gate's suggestion does not in fact change anything about how the game works personally I'd rather seen quests done for R26, especially since the stats are set to be based on the current system. For R27 however it might be a nice change.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 00:05   #9
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

If it's this or something that actually changes the game meaningfully, I'll take the latter.

I'd hope there's some spare time during the round to get the coding done so this could be implemented in r27.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 08:06   #10
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

The first part is utterly moronic(not that I like how dmg work atm, I much preferd the more complex and maluable multiple gun/variable gun dmg/overshooting of old), the second part is, erm, more than 5 years old? I've even implemented it before...really novel suggestions there...
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 08:54   #11
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Care to explain why its utterly moronic?
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 09:04   #12
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
The first part is utterly moronic(not that I like how dmg work atm, I much preferd the more complex and maluable multiple gun/variable gun dmg/overshooting of old), the second part is, erm, more than 5 years old? I've even implemented it before...really novel suggestions there...
I think we're looking for good suggestions not original ones.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 12:21   #13
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by Gate
If it's this or something that actually changes the game meaningfully, I'll take the latter.
Chaging the EMP resistance / formula to something more akin to the changes that i've called for since before the 'new' emp formula was implemented would actually change the game significantly.

If you had, in addition to convetional "armour", a "EMP Res" and "Steal Res" field, you could have ships that are specifically good at being used on certain races, not just ship types. Eg, you have a Harpy with high EMP resistance might be useful against a Cathaar attack fleet, however that same Harpy would be useless against a Xan attack fleet if that harpy had low armour.

Its more important with Terran - in the past, but also presently with stealing, if a ship has high armour it is both difficult to kill and to steal - whereas with seperate fields it could be strong in any field (or all of them) and vulnerable to others.



That would increase the options for Shipstat builders significantly, i think, and lead to much greater intra-race fleet specialisation.
You could even go so far as to increase the number of types of ship in a race - the extra ships could be an "EMP Harpy" and an "Armour Harpy" or whatever.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 12:34   #14
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by SteInMetz
Care to explain why its utterly moronic?
It doesn't add anything to the game whilst subtracting the posibility to revert to a model of shipdesign which allows for overshooting again(which in turn allows the stats to include more complex quirks and special purposes for ships).

Mz; I'm just rather annoyed that these things get passed off as original ideas without any acknowledgement of those who thought them up and advocated them for years.

Ps. Gate made a factual error in his original post. His statement that a seperate emp-armor is needed to allow variable calculations is technically incorrect. The same result could mostly be had(if simplicity is what is aimed for) by adding dmg indicators for EMP guns and using the allready existing stat for armor for EMP-armor aswell. The game would add a simple link that checks the ship type and choses wether to use dmg or emp based on that type-statement. To allow for racial differences between weakness against emp and normal damage a racial modificator could be added, once again a simple check of the race-statement for the ship would apply said modifier. What is lost in this process are the quirks, which is also why I personaly dislike this approach, although the simplicity is alluring.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 14:49   #15
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Ps. Gate made a factual error in his original post. His statement that a seperate emp-armor is needed to allow variable calculations is technically incorrect. The same result could mostly be had(if simplicity is what is aimed for) by adding dmg indicators for EMP guns and using the allready existing stat for armor for EMP-armor aswell. The game would add a simple link that checks the ship type and choses wether to use dmg or emp based on that type-statement. To allow for racial differences between weakness against emp and normal damage a racial modificator could be added, once again a simple check of the race-statement for the ship would apply said modifier. What is lost in this process are the quirks, which is also why I personaly dislike this approach, although the simplicity is alluring.
This is a reasonable blanket solution in that it allows you to account for some of the issues we've seen with a single armour column (eg black widows always had insane dmg/costs because they always targetted ter BS. Which made them overpowered vs other things), but it doesn't allow individual ships within that race to have their EMP resistance altered independently of armour.

Which restricts stat design a fair bit.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 14:50   #16
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

I dont see the problem tbh
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 15:46   #17
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
This is a reasonable blanket solution in that it allows you to account for some of the issues we've seen with a single armour column (eg black widows always had insane dmg/costs because they always targetted ter BS. Which made them overpowered vs other things), but it doesn't allow individual ships within that race to have their EMP resistance altered independently of armour.

Which restricts stat design a fair bit.
You did notice the part where I allready said everything you just wrote, and a lot more?
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 15:59   #18
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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You did notice the part where I allready said everything you just wrote, and a lot more?
I can only guess you think you summarised my entire post under the word 'quirks', but this wasn't clear to someone of my relatively miniscule intellect.

Unless I misinterpretted your suggestion, then I agree that it's a pretty awful choice to make for EMP. I think the one proposed in this thread is the most sensible. In fact, I quite like Sovereign's suggestion for different kill/EMP/Steal resistances as it does open up more choice.

However, I'm not convinced that steal/res adds a huge amount. We need E/R because of the special dynamics of EMP. I'm not sure the benefits would be so great for an S/R.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 21:58   #19
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Yes, what you did was simply give an example of quirk and then state, again, that it was a problem with the optional solution I gave(which, as I also stated, was not my prefered choice, but would be the most simplistic if that was what was wanted).
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Unread 28 Dec 2008, 16:17   #20
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Can this be done now that we have OMAC's support?

I still think it's worth doing.
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Unread 28 Dec 2008, 20:44   #21
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

you also might want to make it optionable if you attack for one, two or even three ticks and defend for one, two, three or maybe even more ticks.

This way battles get a bit more complicated and you can actually have tactics, other then 'overkilling with huge fi/co' and 'fake fi/co as FR'.

!!
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Unread 28 Dec 2008, 23:13   #22
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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you also might want to make it optionable if you attack for one, two or even three ticks and defend for one, two, three or maybe even more ticks.

This way battles get a bit more complicated and you can actually have tactics, other then 'overkilling with huge fi/co' and 'fake fi/co as FR'.

!!
Having played this in other games it can be good... but imo makes the game overcomplicated, will put new players off the game having to put yet another dimension into attacking/defending. Also tad off topic
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Unread 29 Dec 2008, 00:59   #23
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Dont blame it on the new players all the time! Is it really the new players that are not able understand that or is it the older ones not wanting to adapt a new way of playing?
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Unread 29 Dec 2008, 01:10   #24
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

I like the idea to remove a column on the stats, but I think the damage column is the wrong one. It would mean that all damage (emp and normal) would work like emp does now. Normal damage works more intuitively than emp damage as it is now. Also it gets complicated when you try to apply the same change to structure killers and pods. Better remove the guns column, make emp ships do a certain amount of emp damage like normal ships and change emp resistance to work like 'emp armor'.
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Unread 29 Dec 2008, 09:27   #25
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
I like the idea to remove a column on the stats, but I think the damage column is the wrong one. It would mean that all damage (emp and normal) would work like emp does now. Normal damage works more intuitively than emp damage as it is now. Also it gets complicated when you try to apply the same change to structure killers and pods. Better remove the guns column, make emp ships do a certain amount of emp damage like normal ships and change emp resistance to work like 'emp armor'.
My intention was to have everything work like armour/dmg does now. The naming of the column is completely arbitrary.

It would make EMP so much more intuitive.
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Unread 30 Dec 2008, 10:14   #26
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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I dont see the problem tbh
Congratulations, you just disqualified yourself from this discussion!

The problem is that the stats are complicated, combat is complicated. Getting into it for a newbie is hopeless and the depth compared to earlier is marginal.

I'd argue removing guns again in favor of damage, and adding different kinds of armor, but I'm just rehashing the same things I've been saying for the last few years.
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 01:13   #27
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Wasnt some rounds of stats acutally like this. I believe emp resistance was dropped for attacking armor type, but then reintroduced some rounds later?

Yes this would make all things easier to understand. But of course emp would be able to do more "EMP Damage" than Killing Ships "Killing Damage".

EDIT: However that means that TE would be the hardest to emp, due to thier large armor.
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 13:45   #28
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Wasnt some rounds of stats acutally like this. I believe emp resistance was dropped for attacking armor type, but then reintroduced some rounds later?

Yes this would make all things easier to understand. But of course emp would be able to do more "EMP Damage" than Killing Ships "Killing Damage".

EDIT: However that means that TE would be the hardest to emp, due to thier large armor.
For a while there was only armour and damage. IMO, this was slightly broken and gave statsmakers fewer options.

This suggestion includes 'EMP armour', so that terran wouldn't automatically be hardest to EMP. Which can be very important for balance.

It also means that EMP can be acceptable against secondary targets, which is VERY important IMO to maintain cath's playability in multitargeting rounds (when most races get away with building 3-4 main shiptypes)
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 04:23   #29
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

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For a while there was only armour and damage. IMO, this was slightly broken and gave statsmakers fewer options.

This suggestion includes 'EMP armour', so that terran wouldn't automatically be hardest to EMP. Which can be very important for balance.

It also means that EMP can be acceptable against secondary targets, which is VERY important IMO to maintain cath's playability in multitargeting rounds (when most races get away with building 3-4 main shiptypes)
Ah now I understand, however I think a different name for "EMP Armo(u)r" is needed, but i'm at a loss for one.

EDIT: Well just call it Magnetic Shielding. For damage type names I thought of EMP (against shields), Explosive (against Armor) are nice ones. Both damage types ignore the opposites HP Type. So once Mag Shields are gone, it ignores the armor and the ship is frozen, and the same with Explosive Shells, they pass through the mag shield.
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 13:17   #30
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Shields and armour perhaps.

EMP has to get through armour, other weaponry has to get through shields.


This makes physical sense: you can isolate yourself from EM interference using a Faraday cage made of a conductor, but afaik you can't affect the path of EMP with an electromagnetic field of your own. Meanwhile, any spacefaring civilisation would have weapons able to punch through almost any armour, hence why shielding would be needed.
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 13:32   #31
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

...
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Unread 3 Jan 2009, 14:06   #32
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
For a while there was only armour and damage. IMO, this was slightly broken and gave statsmakers fewer options.

This suggestion includes 'EMP armour', so that terran wouldn't automatically be hardest to EMP. Which can be very important for balance.

It also means that EMP can be acceptable against secondary targets, which is VERY important IMO to maintain cath's playability in multitargeting rounds (when most races get away with building 3-4 main shiptypes)
Why they didn't go with this is simply beyond my comprehension.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:45   #33
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Re: Remove 'damage' column on stats and restructure EMP

Implement this please!
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