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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 16:12   #51
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Yeah and if all your members are retards it's also more work. And if everyone hates you. And if you're forced to use your left foot to type with. Stop posting like a moron.
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Unread 13 Feb 2008, 18:39   #52
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

How do people feel about them now?

I like them, they seem pretty balanced and they're pretty interesting. Terrans seem a bit bulletproof, but my 3 main complaints/comments are:

1) Cathaar are broken. I'd suggest removing them or changing their killship:EMP ship ratio to 3:4 or 4:3.

2) Some attack fleets are nearly worthless eg. xand FI and terran DE are poor. Having 2 viable attack fleets leads to more variety and more fun. I'm not sure how I'd suggest improving this though.

3) The 'damage' column seems academic. For tidiness' sake, I'd consider amalgamating 'guns' and 'damage'. Just set each gun to doing 1 damage, and have ships with 1 gun per damage they do, then remove the damage column. If this requires effort in recoding, then don't bother doing it behind the scenes. Just change the visible stats to show it this way.
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Unread 13 Feb 2008, 19:02   #53
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

I pretty much agree with gate on everything, first two points are my thoughts exactly.
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Unread 14 Feb 2008, 19:19   #54
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
1) Cathaar are broken. I'd suggest removing them or changing their killship:EMP ship ratio to 3:4 or 4:3.
Cathaar have been "okay" in other rounds with just 2 kill ships, but they were defensive iirc. their attack fleets seem to work better as full emp. people are going to toss fleets in front of it, or at them, b/c they won't be at a big risk to lose anything, but thats the nature of EMP.

your 2nd point is good too Gate. if this wasn't a heavy xp round it could've worked itself out, but it ended up causing people to focus attack fleets and have happy times roiding and being freely roided back
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Unread 14 Feb 2008, 23:28   #55
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
Cathaar have been "okay" in other rounds with just 2 kill ships, but they were defensive iirc. their attack fleets seem to work better as full emp. people are going to toss fleets in front of it, or at them, b/c they won't be at a big risk to lose anything, but thats the nature of EMP.
My problem with EMP is that it's a win big or lose big thing.

Massive EMP planets can defend themselves easily against massive incomings. As soon as you fall behind, it's open season and you're laughably easy to roid. Reducing EMP dependence might fix this slightly...
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Unread 15 Feb 2008, 00:19   #56
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

or even implementing defensive 'emp criticals' as i've suggested before instead of letting it a be land vs 95% emp for minor roids fiasco as it is now. people said they'd make cathaar overpowered etc, which might be true if they only build specific ships while hampering either attack or defensive capabilities. as it stands right now, the only way to effectively play cathaar is to get big fast and keep rolling by getting massive defense early (which doesn't usually happen unless you're a def whore or flagship planet in xx alliance).
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Unread 15 Feb 2008, 00:27   #57
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

EMP critical failure is a possibility, but I'm concerned it could only enhance the impregnability of the biggest cath players. The round 17 scorpion/mantis approach for caths* allowed smaller planets to benefit from the ability to keep some roids. I'm not certain which approach is best but I still lean towards killships.


*the scorpion and mantis were two zero-loss cath killships that between them covered 3 and a half attack fleets (cath/xan FR, cath CR and zik CR that didn't have a BS escort).
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Unread 15 Feb 2008, 18:18   #58
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Originally Posted by Gate
EMP critical failure is a possibility, but I'm concerned it could only enhance the impregnability of the biggest cath players.
Agreed. It'll just make matters worse. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I support removing Cath completely (that is, I support removing any race with a monopoly on EMP technology). Failing that, I can live with a change in kill / stun ratio as you suggested earlier in the thread.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 07:17   #59
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

I actually like the variability that Cathaar brings cf to the other races... The point is that the races reflect your playing style so that highly active and highly agressive players can pick cathaar and do well at it, whilst less actives or more defensive players choose Xan for example.

As such, removing of the Cathaar (or EMP) race would be a little sad, and has other impacts (such as Eit's "ability" of having some of everything no longer being all that special, they'd just be a kind of Terran/Xan mix whose success would depend on the prevailing stats, and as such wont attract anything like the "dedicated following" that Cath, Zik, Xan etc gets). As scuh, i'd be much more in favour of attempting to fix Cathaar rather than removing it outright - though the arguments that are brought forward (elsewhere) do have very sound merit.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 12:50   #60
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

I'm not advocating the removal of EMP has a type, just the removal of the race which has a monopoly on EMP (stunning ships is an extremely interesting aspect of the combat engine, and I would not like to see it disappear completely).

Even with the removal of Cath as a race, Etd would still have its signature trait of having a bit of all types, though personally, I feel the "unique nature" of Etd is overrated. As I've stated before, I have no problem with every race having ships of every type (the real difference between races should come from race specifics, such as research speed, construction speed, production speed, etc).

Besides, there would be no reason why all races should have all types of ship. For Xan for example, EMP ships would not really fit in the race's profile (small, fast, hard hitting, no armor), since EMP does no permanent damage, and since the race is fast on its own already. On the other hand, it does fit with Ter (big, slow, low offence, high defence), since it does no damage, but prevents ships from firing at you.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 13:48   #61
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

I've always been a big fan of Cathaar. I also prefer it as a race when it's solid EMP with no killships.

I think that if we get rid of Cathaar, but disperse EMP technology throughout the rest of the universe, then we should do the same for Zikonian too (and dispurse the 'scavenger' technology among the remaining 3 races). The whole point of having different races is that they have different playing styles. I like playing as Cath because your def fleets are the most appreciated as they're the most efficient for def. If you're defending all the time, in any decent alliance you'll get priority for def in return.

Maybe it's just because I'm old-fashioned and fear change though. Who knows.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 15:52   #62
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Maybe it's just because I'm old-fashioned and fear change though. Who knows.
Do you believe the win big/lose big mechanic of cathaar needs changing?

I think it does, and if you agree with me; how do you suggest getting around this for cath whilst keeping massed EMP? I'm sure that it's the basic mechanic of EMP that's responsible for this.

I think a 3 or 4 killship cath fleet would be able to maintain most of the cath's unique 'feel' whilst providing better balance.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 16:33   #63
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Do you believe the win big/lose big mechanic of cathaar needs changing?

I think it does, and if you agree with me; how do you suggest getting around this for cath whilst keeping massed EMP? I'm sure that it's the basic mechanic of EMP that's responsible for this.

I think a 3 or 4 killship cath fleet would be able to maintain most of the cath's unique 'feel' whilst providing better balance.
I'm not entirely convinced that the Cathaar needs a lot of killships. I mean, Terrans are just plan old fashion killships. Then Cathaar have the freeze, and Ziks have the steal and xan have the cloak. Etd has a bit of everything.

I just feel that if you're going to take some of Cath's EMP ships away and replace them with Killships, you should take some of Xan's cloaked ships away. Gief them an uncloaked BS or something. Atm ter/xan are the only races that are solid... so if you want to make Cath go down the Zik route (which understandably has killships also), then do it to Xan too.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 17:53   #64
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
I just feel that if you're going to take some of Cath's EMP ships away and replace them with Killships, you should take some of Xan's cloaked ships away. Gief them an uncloaked BS or something. Atm ter/xan are the only races that are solid... so if you want to make Cath go down the Zik route (which understandably has killships also), then do it to Xan too.
Overall, ter/xan/zik/etd seem pretty balanced (with ter/etd the stronger of the two). Removing some cloaked ships would add nothing and would fix nothing that I can see.


Whereas I believe cath are currently broken, and I think this is because of EMP's dynamics. So some restructuring is needed.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 19:32   #65
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Overall, ter/xan/zik/etd seem pretty balanced (with ter/etd the stronger of the two). Removing some cloaked ships would add nothing and would fix nothing that I can see.


Whereas I believe cath are currently broken, and I think this is because of EMP's dynamics. So some restructuring is needed.
To clarify this: the issue isn't really with the current stats in specific. I mean, some rounds Xan comes out on top, some rounds Zik or Ter or Etd. Looking at averages over the last 10 rounds, I'd say each of these races has had an equal amount of top300/100/10 planets.
The problem is that Cat is fundamentally flawed; no amount of stats balancing is going to fix the basic idea of a race of which 85% of the ships stun instead of kill. I'm fairly sure you realise this, so this post is mostly aimed at others posting in this thread, such as Zaejii, Kenny and Sov.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 19:12   #66
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

oh trust me, i know they're flawed. any person that can be roided and get semi-bad losses with 90% coverage on an attack is 'broken'. the problem comes in if they're made more efficient that they'll take off with their superior research and mining potential. if they're made weaker, it will make it more difficult to even reach that 90% point. the only cathaar planets that i've ever seen do incredibly good (myself) are ones that got loads of defense early and were allowed to mine the roids they got. most, however, unless they're a major player in the community or hc/dc in an alliance, never receive defense and are constantly getting bullied all round.

once you fall behind as a cathaar, you're always behind.

if you can implement the 'defensive' ships (or kill ships) to cover that last 10% efficiently without needing to recall your attacks every single night, i believe that you would probably be on the right track to 'fixing' the race overall.
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Unread 18 Feb 2008, 11:30   #67
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

So you're agreeing with Gate's suggestion of increasing the number of kill ships which are available to Cathaar?
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Unread 19 Feb 2008, 20:04   #68
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

no necessarily agreeing, no.

Gate, would it be feasible to maybe try something where the EMP ships would fire at their current strength / potency and also equip them with 1 or 2 small normal damage guns init 10 to fire at unfrozen ships at the end of the combat cycle and see how (if at all) that would affect anything?
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Unread 19 Feb 2008, 22:03   #69
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
Gate, would it be feasible to maybe try something where the EMP ships would fire at their current strength / potency and also equip them with 1 or 2 small normal damage guns init 10 to fire at unfrozen ships at the end of the combat cycle and see how (if at all) that would affect anything?
Can someone who knows how the whole coding thing works tell us if this is possible?

I've not thought of that before, but right now I'm writing a report so I'll give it some thought and get back to you with my opinion.
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 01:42   #70
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
Gate, would it be feasible to maybe try something where the EMP ships would fire at their current strength / potency and also equip them with 1 or 2 small normal damage guns init 10 to fire at unfrozen ships at the end of the combat cycle and see how (if at all) that would affect anything?
That could be called W1-W2 (Weapon), but would that replace T1-T2 or come in addition to it ?
Would the ETD emping ships benefit from it too ?
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 06:57   #71
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Imo they shouldnt, seeing as their emp is not supposed to be as advanced as cathaars
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 09:08   #72
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Imo they shouldnt, seeing as their emp is not supposed to be as advanced as cathaars
They wouldn't need it. They have killships to cover the gaping holes in their fleets.
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 12:30   #73
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Can someone who knows how the whole coding thing works tell us if this is possible?

I've not thought of that before, but right now I'm writing a report so I'll give it some thought and get back to you with my opinion.
I'm assuming it isn't, seeing as it's never in the past happened that ships had different types of guns (or even variations in gun power).
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 21:32   #74
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
That could be called W1-W2 (Weapon), but would that replace T1-T2 or come in addition to it ?
not really sure what you would call it, if its even possible to test (lol). just figure it might give them that little extra 'umph' w/o overpowering too much or needing to increase the kill ship ratios.

brainstorming ftw!
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 23:47   #75
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Without knowing anything for sure, it might be more feasible for cathaar ships to have two initiatives with two seperate T1s, ie Spider T1(FI), init(1) ... Spider T1(CO), init(10) - whereby the second initiative would be a conventional gun and the first EMP.

I was exploring, back in the day, the feasibility of ships with "double initiative" for a race i called the Zealots as the mysterious Fifth Race, ie they'd fire once very early in battle, and again later, with a net total much higher firepower but less on each seperate occasion...

but we've got ETD instead .


poke appoco, he's fairly clued up!
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Unread 22 Feb 2008, 15:58   #76
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Why do people persist babbling about the same topics? SHit! change the tune!

Is not alliance limits, is not stats, is not skins or com-unit, for God's sake is not Jolt trying to close the game (are you dumb?). Is simply that PA is obsolete. PA cannot compete with the newer generation of MPOGs. A big reason for this is that long ago the PA community decided to keep the game simple (i.e. chess like), instead of letting it blossom into chaotic complexity. Personally, I would have remained a player either way, but the dice was cast and this is the price we pay: a comatose enterprise with a dwindling fan base.

Once again, the simplest, cheapest, thus most likely one of the best way I see for (at least) keeping together the PA community is to keep track of every player's past performance.

Do it soon. Live longer.
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Unread 22 Feb 2008, 16:19   #77
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

This is strategic discussion, I'm pretty sure discussing stats plays a large part in that? Sorry if it offends you though :/

On topic: Cath definitely need a look at. The double initiative cathaar thing sounds interesting sceptical about the feasibility of it though. If it's not possible I agree that they need another killship or two to reduce the insane amount of incs they get.
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Unread 22 Feb 2008, 16:51   #78
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

It does not offend me, it makes me sad. I have been listening to all this round changes for years, yet every round PA looses players.

I believe it is an exercise in futility to keep talking about crap most of us are quite not capable of fully understanding while the game dies.

Simplicity has always been the stamp of greatness. Keep it simple. Now, this does not mean resisting evolution for the sake of remaining stagnant. It only means that first thing should be first. PA has been dying for rounds. Changing the initiative of Cath, or giving more armour to Ter, or capping alliances at 73.245 is not going to change this fact. Nor is it going to make the game better. Rarely will it be the determining factor in bringing back old players and is much less going to bring new players.

Now, keep babbling, we can all do that and feel proud.
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Unread 22 Feb 2008, 17:58   #79
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

This forum is called Strategic Discussions. As such, the discussion is generally about strategic topics. If you're looking for discussions about suggestions, you might want to take a look over on the Suggestions Forum. Otherwise, don't come in here and whine about things that have nothing to do with strategy or stats.
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Unread 22 Feb 2008, 18:49   #80
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
Simplicity has always been the stamp of greatness.
We already have a simple game. As you said in your previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
PA cannot compete with the newer generation of MPOGs. A big reason for this is that long ago the PA community decided to keep the game simple (i.e. chess like), instead of letting it blossom into chaotic complexity.
I believe we have the right sort of level of complexity. We tried simpler in round 10 and it truly sucked balls.

Quote:
Nor is it going to make the game better.
I disagree. The most fun rounds I've played have had good, balanced shipstats. When I picked a shit race in round 12 or something, my round was awful. Balancing the shipstats so that everyone who plays can have fun is an important contributor.

And as others have said, this is the strategic discussions board. Your argument it with the suggestions board.
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